A new opportunity to take a step backward

[unicorn2014]

So last night and today my partner sent me these effusive texts and emails telling me how much he misses me, how much it hurts him to be apart from me, how he wishes he could help me, and I feel absolutely nothing in response other then annoyance. I have not said anything to him about my negative emotional responses to him. The way I feel about the situation is he cooked his own goose. He started a relationship with me before he was divorced from his wife and these are his consequences. I also find it irritating when he says stuff to me like he doesn't want to burden me with his despair, but he just did by telling me about it. He says he wants to emotionally support me yet what I really feel like he is asking for is emotional support for himself. The hard thing is when it comes to stuff about my daughter he's right 80% of the time. Also when he's not annoying me with his needs, he is relatively emotionally supportive. So now my question is what is healthy emotional support. I have to say when my partner tells me about feelings of despair my first instinct is to tell him to see a therapist but he thinks he should be able to talk to me about this stuff. I'm not the one who decided to initiate a relationship with a woman half way across the country while I was still married to someone else. I'm not responsible for fixing that. I also have my frustrations in that he has not delivered on what he has promised me so I've pretty much run out of patience with him. So I really have no sympathy for him when he whines to me about his hardships. He of course would deny he's whining and would say he's trying to sympathize or empathize with me but my problems have nothing to do with his problems. I know some of you would say go no contact but that's kind of difficult as he is serving as my daughter's stepdad and I do reach out to him in the middle of the night when I have a crisis. I'm wondering at this point if these are my problems with intimacy.

[zodi 2010]

Maybe he should be in the friend zone to support your daughter and you as a good friend.  Maybe you should look to someone else to be emotionally supportive and intimate.  Im sure you have a bond with him but maybe it is no longer a romantic bond and the relationship has changed.  Im very inexperienced in relationships though so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you, I'm waiting for him to get a divorce and we do have a very strong friendship. He was my lover so he can't be my friend. I've merely put the romantic component on hold while I wait for him to get a divorce. I'm also very inexperienced when it comes to being engaged to a married man, he's my fiancé.

We were able to work through a difficult conversation about my daughter. I've yet to tell him how it makes me feel when he tells me he feels despair because he can't help me. Right now I'm just feeling angry with him for promising me things he couldn't deliver so I have no sympathy for him.

[zodi 2010]

Do you feel like he is your best chance to be happy?

Your only chance to be happy?

[unicorn2014]

Zodi I feel like I've invested a lot of time and energy in him and if I can get past my triggers and resentments he's worth the effort.

[zodi 2010]

I guess because you are seeking advice or thoughts on your relationship you don't necessarily share all the positive aspects of the relationship.  Makes it difficult to see how he makes you happy.  You shared he is good with your daughter so that's a definite plus for him.  I hope he makes you happy because you deserve to be happy and you shouldn't have to go through hell or change yourself a ton to find that happiness.

[unicorn2014]

Ive said he also supports me as a person with mental illness. While I don't have a personality disorder, he and I both have PTSD so we can mutually support each other. Plus I enjoy the work he does, his sense of humor, he's a good cook, lover, companion, his intellectual gifts. I'm just annoyed that his divorce hasn't gone through yet but I'm still waiting on him because aside from his marital status he has a lot to offer.

I'm not a happy person. Never have been. That's not my personality. I'm not really looking for happiness. I'm looking for peace and quiet and I know that's up to me.

[zodi 2010]

Thanks for sharing that.  It definitely changed my view of him and you.  I'm sorry his divorce is causing you such pain and frustration.  I hope he can take care of his situation and bring you some peace and quiet.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you jodi, he has greatly contributed to my life, however the distance and the divorce are irritating and annoying. That's why I posted here. Now some might say I need to share my negative feelings with him, I don't know. That's why I posted here. Perhaps some would say if he was that annoying to me to take some space, but I managed to interact with him today without getting in a fight so I must be doing something right. I think I have successfully stopped the bleeding.

[Sunfl0wer]

So now my question is what is healthy emotional support. I have to say when my partner tells me about feelings of despair my first instinct is to tell him to see a therapist but he thinks he should be able to talk to me about this stuff. I'm not the one who decided to initiate a relationship with a woman half way across the country while I was still married to someone else. I'm not responsible for fixing that. I also have my frustrations in that he has not delivered on what he has promised me so I've pretty much run out of patience with him. So I really have no sympathy for him when he whines to me about his hardships. He of course would deny he's whining and would say he's trying to sympathize or empathize with me but my problems have nothing to do with his problems.

That's why I posted here. Perhaps some would say if he was that annoying to me to take some space, but I managed to interact with him today without getting in a fight so I must be doing something right. I think I have successfully stopped the bleeding.

This sounds great!  It sounds like you were able to listen to tour SO, recognize your own feelings and experience, and allow the conversation to continue in a calm area?  Without emotions expressed getting too intense?

However, it sounds like he challenged that by being intense and offering something triggering... .  Either knowingly or unknowingly, hard to really know. _{To be honest, if I were in your shoes, it would be hard for me to think at this point, he wasn't trying to get an emotional pull of closeness from me with that stuff.  I would be pissed to have to hear him lament as though he is a victim when the reality is I was misled.}

So your question is... .what is healthy emotional support?

Are you asking how you could have been more supportive for him, or him for you?

I think in this situation, if you were able to allow the conversation without engaging in an intense exchange, or backed away before a fight, then this is excellent!  What happened exactly?  What did you do?  How did you feel about what happened?

[unicorn2014]

Hi Sunfl0wer I'm feeling a bit triggered by some stuff going on on couple of other threads so I"m going to try to focus here.

Yes you are correct about the emotional pull and I do resent it.

I was looking for how could I be emotionally supportive to him given the situation. In other words telling him I think he should be telling that stuff to a therapist and not to me.

You know how some people on this board think they are enabling me?

Well, I think I am enabling him by allowing him to tell me those things.

Not only tell me those things but text me, email me, and call me as much as he wants or needs.

For example he calls me when I am asleep to leave me a message, he still shares his calendar with me, he tells me what he is doing every day, thinks he needs to check in with me, thinks I need to know everything he is doing, acts hurt if I don't share my day with him. Its like he's trying to replicate a life together from thousands of miles away and I resent that too.

Today he did hang up on me because he said "what?" in a rude manner and I pointed it out to him. He hung up on me and then claimed he was saying what because there was clipping. He may have been telling the truth about the clipping but he still hung up on me. He always texts me in the morning when he gets up before I get up and I don't have time to be texting him while I'm getting my daughter ready for school. He asked me if my daughter actually got to her homework right now. (I'm having huge academic problems with her and he's trying to help me manage them.) So I called him to answer his question and I had him on speaker phone as I was trying to cook oatmeal on the say time and he said "what?" in a really snippy way, and I said I was trying to answer his question.

I think he's comfortable in this routine we've established but I'm starting to find it irritating and annoying. I know people would tell me to take a step back. If he were a normal person I would be able to say to him let me initiate communication in the morning but he's not a normal person so if I were to say that he would have a very strong reaction and accuse me of ending the relationship or something stupid like that. At least I can recognize the difference between normal and BPD behavior so I'm not too far gone. 

This is one of those LDR problems. I did request a LDR board as we have particular set of problems that don't affect people in face to face relationships.

[Grey Kitty]

So now my question is what is healthy emotional support. I have to say when my partner tells me about feelings of despair my first instinct is to tell him to see a therapist but he thinks he should be able to talk to me about this stuff.

How would you give healthy emotional support to your partner?

• I was supporting a friend the other day who was in the aftermath of a panic attack for the first time in her life. (Yes, it is a fairly extreme example) Mostly I was just listening and validating that her feelings were real. As she was doing a bit better, she told me about some of the (unhelpful and invalidating, but well-intended) things that other people had offered her as "support" in areas around this issue.
  
  The lesson I'm drawing from this was that I was able to support her because I was calm and comfortable with her even during a difficult time.
  
  People often don't know what to do or say around somebody who is grieving/distraught, and are uncomfortable with the emotions that person is expressing. This is another situation were people are incapable of giving good support.
  
  My first point -- If you aren't feeling well grounded and secure, you cannot give good support at that time.



• You often have emotional responses to your partner, if not being fully trriggered. (annoyed, angry, impatient, hurt, etc.). You are incapable of giving him good support at a time like that.
  
  In addition, many issues that he needs support for (e.g. his divorce) are ones that you are too involved with to give him good support there.



• This one is specific to your partner, and it may be tough to hear:
  
  Do NOT believe his advice or statements in emotional / interpersonal areas like this. He doesn't get it well enough to give you good advice, and he mixes in guilt, judgement, or projection with anything that might have a kernel of good advice in it. (No, you don't need to tell him this... .just don't believe it when he says it)

All told, you may find that your capacity to give him good emotional support is rather limited. Try to offer what you safely can within your limits, and believe that as you grow and learn, you will get better at it. (And practice doing it with other people, especially ones who are safer than he is.)


What about him giving you good emotional support? Honestly, I don't think he has any real capacity, and isn't showing signs of building it. He tries, but he turns it around to make it be about him, which doesn't leave you feeling better, as you've stated already.

Accept that you need to get this kind of support from other sources. Go to people who have more emotional maturity than he has.

You wouldn't expect a blind man to lead you safely across a 4-lane highway. Yes, it is almost that bad.

[unicorn2014]

Hi Grey Kitty, please allow me to take a step backward.

What I am saying is how I supposed to deal with him when says things like I don't want to burden you with my despair but proceeds to tell me about it anyways?

I'm not looking to him for emotional support, I have many venues for that. He's the one selling himself to me as emotional support. That's all he has to offer me right now, yes even the financial support dried up, so now he's really to trying to pitch his wares.

And to  be honest, I don't really care how he's feeling anymore.

This relationship has become too much work. I know I don't owe him anything, not an apology or an explanation. This is where the acronyms in interpersonal effectiveness come in handy such as DEAR MAN, GIVE and FAST. Right now self respect is most important.

Be Fair to myself and the other

Do not Apologize unless I have violated a wise mind value

Stick to my values

Be Truthful

Right now I don't have a lot of patience for his process.

That doesn't mean I want to throw it out, that just means I'm not interested in listening to his stuff anymore.

I don't care if he feels despair that's trapped where he's at, I don't care that he needs to leave his environment to get better, I don't care that he feels bad that he's not here to help me out with my problems. He would be able to do all of that if he hadn't promised me something he couldn't deliver.

Every morning I wake up to text and messages from him.

Now to his credit I am having a very hard time with my daughter right now and he is trying to help me to the best of his ability so I don't want to totally dismiss or discount him but its his fault he promised himself to me before he could deliver and I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for his pain.

So what I've learned from the board is to take a step backward when I'm feeling that way.

Its very difficult to coordinate a long distance relationship and sometimes I get sick of it.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think you are asking some great questions... .

Also seems like you are trying to not JADE on here and in the relationship.

I had some thoughts on enabling and such... .

... .and thoughts for reply here... .



I will try to return later to reply... .have to run.

Hopefully i can reply later... .

Stick with not JADEing if possible, and self care when triggered.  

I think that just sticking with him, allowing him to talk was enough.

  You suppressed your desire to share your feelings with him as likely no good would have resulted.

I think how you just allowed him to talk... .was enough support for that moment.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you sunflower I think you are right. I would like him to get into therapy but he doesn't think it will help . I think his feelings are legitimate but I'm the wrong person to share them with. I'm not his therapist and I also am sympathetic to him.

[Grey Kitty]

What I am saying is how I supposed to deal with him when says things like I don't want to burden you with my despair but proceeds to tell me about it anyways?

That has two parts.

First off, he says "I'm not going to... ." then does it. That is frustrating, but you can probably just let that aspect of it go.

The more important part is what do you do when he comes to you depressed/upset and looking for support... .no matter what introduction he gives you for it.

At that point ask yourself: "Can I listen to this and validate his feelings?"

If your answer is yes, do so.

If you are feeling pissy and irritated at him, then your answer is no, you can't support him in a helpful way.

If you support him for a while, but he seems to be going in circles, and while you felt good about it at first, but start to get frustrated, your "yes" turned into a "no" and you need to act appropriately.

The appropriate response is "I'm feeling really frustrated right now, and I need to talk about something else." (or "... .and I need to say goodbye.".

And enforce that. Because if you stay there talking, you *KNOW* you will say something that will be hurtful and piss him off. So get away before you do that. (He may be mad, he may accuse you of being uncaring... .but if you talk to him 'till you blow up, he would do that anyways!)

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunfl0wer I'm feeling a bit triggered by some stuff going on on couple of other threads so I"m going to try to focus here.

Always good to take space and do some self care.

Yes you are correct about the emotional pull and I do resent it.

I was looking for how could I be emotionally supportive to him given the situation. In other words telling him I think he should be telling that stuff to a therapist and not to me.

Well, it sounds like his upset was a trigger for you and you refrained from adding anything to the exchange to heighten the intensity?  Then this sounds fantastic, and maybe the best possible action.

It does not sound like an opportunity to provide him support. 

1.  When you are feeling triggered, it is not the best time to be trying to offer him support.

2.  It sounds like his 'upsetness' was simply an emotional pull of manipulation.  Supporting a person who is engaging in an abusive tactic with you is not helpful. (Sure, support him on something else, not this).

It sounds like he is trying to get you to 'fix' the results of the consequences of his own behaviors. 

Do you think he is just expressing these feelings as a way to coherce you/guilt you into dropping your boundary regarding seeing him in person? Or some other boundary?

IMHO: Trust your gut on this one.  Those are his feelings to deal with... .don't rescue him from his sadness of not being able to marry you, play house, play mistress, or whatever role he is grieving that he does not have with you. 

You know how some people on this board think they are enabling me?

Well, I think I am enabling him by allowing him to tell me those things.

I do feel if you do something to rescue him from those feelings, it could be enabling him.

Well, I think it is fair to excuse yourself from a conversation where... .

- you feel triggered

- you feel manipulated

It is not your job to tell him what he can and cannot say to you, that is controlling and will always be his choice to make.

You can control if you stay around to listen.

Maybe you can say something like... .

"Yea, you know... .The topic of where our relationship could/would/should be and what I hoped for us to be... .and all of our feelings about that... .  Is so upsetting to me that I am going to have to go take a walk and care for myself right now.  Let's chat later when I am in a better place."

Don't allow him any words of trying to soothe you... .Just end it. So your behavior communicates that such expressions are NOT a way to engage you.

Oooh... .I see GK beat me with great advice.

I'll add this anyhow.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think he's comfortable in this routine we've established but I'm starting to find it irritating and annoying. I know people would tell me to take a step back. If he were a normal person I would be able to say to him let me initiate communication in the morning but he's not a normal person so if I were to say that he would have a very strong reaction and accuse me of ending the relationship or something stupid like that. At least I can recognize the difference between normal and BPD behavior so I'm not too far gone. 

Yes, it is hard to break patterns once we find ourselves in them.

It also sounds like some of the interactions you two have, you (even both of you) may be better off without and may be adding frustration between you both.

I realize you mentioned several things, but is there maybe one particular thing that stands out that you would like to step back from?

... .

I hope you don't mind the analogy... .

A social skills therapist once told me... .  That when helping arrange playdates for my son, (he was about 6) it is always best to end the playdate while both are still having fun. 

It is not to be mean and end their fun, but to end the date on a positive note with them both longing for a little more play and looking forward to the next get together.

This made a huge difference to his friendships.  Before this, the kids often played until exhausted and tired and got grumpy... .then everyone would go home. They ended and lingered on some negative feelings.  Ending the date right before the tiredness set in and they were still having fun... .did wonders!

[unicorn2014]

Ty gk and SF. I did not respond to his texts and his emails until today when I asked him to please not tell me he's fine and everything is ok because he's been telling me how desperate he is for the last 2 days.

I don't think he's trying to pull me into anything but I also don't have any sympathy for him. He made his bed now he has to lie in it. I don't doubt he's suffering but he made choices I wouldn't have made , he's also dealing with things I don't have to deal with and in ways I wouldn't deal with them. I will look more in depth at your comment SF and see what I can tell him about how it makes me feel when he's constantly griping about our relationship. He's not asking me to change anything however I don't want to hear his complaining either. He's got a long way to go before he can come out to be with me. In the meanwhile I've got to lift myself up out of my predicament . I'm still struggling to get back on my feet after my divorce. My daughter is challenging me every step of the way and right now my focus is on getting her some help.

The geography of my relationship is impossible for me to overcome.

I wasn't looking for a long distance relationship when I met him and yet I've been in one for 4 years now. I'm very particular about what I need in a man and he's got what I need but he's thousands of miles away. I'm willing to wait it out however I do need to start making some changes around communication , which I'm working on.

[Sunfl0wer]

Ooop! I lost my ability to modify:

2.  It sounds like his 'upsetness' was simply an emotional pull of manipulation.  Supporting a person who is engaging in an abusive tactic with you is not helpful. (Sure, support him on something else, not this).

Had I had opportunity to edit, I'd remove my accusation that his behavior is abusive. 

Sure, even if he is being manipulative, and it is crummy, I think the word 'abuse' is hyperbole on my part.

Sorry!

[unicorn2014]

SF it's not upsetting it's annoying. I think he bit off more then he can chew and now he's whining about it. I don't doubt that what he has to pull off to be with me is extraordinary but he made his bed, now he has to lie in it. I wish he would stop talking to me about how he's feeling and starting talking to me about what he's doing. Every day I'm the one asking him about the motion to compel. He didn't just choose to divorce his wife , he also chose to close his business, so his divorce isn't his top priority , but the way I feel about that is if it's not a top priority to him then he can wait to talk to me until it is. I understand that multiple things are on his plate and he's on multiple timelines but he pulled me into this whole mess and now I'm mad. You see he'd been wanting to close his business and divorce for a long time before I came along and when I came along I gave him the reason to do so.

[unicorn2014]

SF it's ok he can be emotionally abusive  at the flip of a switch and keeping the blood from flowing means I can not respond to those underhanded attacks.

He expects me to encourage him and sometimes I get sick of it. I didn't ask him to change everything for me, that was his choice, and he was not happy when I met him anyway.

I know he is under very real pressure and I have empathy for that but when he couples with it with how he feels about me and how much he misses me that's where my empathy stops. I'm frustrated too that he showed me the good life under false pretenses.