Dating Mishap

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

I just began dating a woman and thought things were progressing a bit quickly but was very much enjoying her company. We went out and she introduced me to her friends and colleagues as her partner less than 2 weeks into the relationship. That day after visiting a few bars (St. Patrick's Day) we'd both had plenty to drink but were still composed enough. This is where things get strange... .she'd been objectifying me throughout the day and had made yet another comment about my body (despite signals of disapproval from me) to which I responded with a light, playful tap on the cheek.

She completely shut down and later described being enraged by this. Clearly, she considered retaliating stating that she would have knocked me out if not for the fact that "she would have been arrested and that I would have been viewed as the victim". We discussed the fact that the incident might have been a source of embarrassment rather then physical hurt, to which she agreed.

She wanted a couple of days to reflect on everything and asked that I give her space. I now recognize my own codependent tendencies- it was extremely difficult to feel her pull away but I sincerely thought we'd have a shot once she cleared her head. A day later, however, I received a text that this was too serious a matter to move forward and to take care.

I was devastated and even knowing the challenges that might lie ahead, I really want to be with her. We're both working on our issues. I am very loving and kind and know that I don't pose a physical threat to her but wonder (based on her reaction) if she is predisposed to violence.


There's trauma history here to boot. Unfortunately, I did not know the extent until too late. I would definitely approach with more caution in the future- if that were even an option... .

Your thought are appreciated!

[altact]

Hello,

I just began dating a woman and thought things were progressing a bit quickly but was very much enjoying her company. We went out and she introduced me to her friends and colleagues as her partner less than 2 weeks into the relationship. That day after visiting a few bars (St. Patrick's Day) we'd both had plenty to drink but were still composed enough. This is where things get strange... .she'd been objectifying me throughout the day and had made yet another comment about my body (despite signals of disapproval from me) to which I responded with a light, playful tap on the cheek.

She completely shut down and later described being enraged by this. Clearly, she considered retaliating stating that she would have knocked me out if not for the fact that "she would have been arrested and that I would have been viewed as the victim". We discussed the fact that the incident might have been a source of embarrassment rather then physical hurt, to which she agreed.

She wanted a couple of days to reflect on everything and asked that I give her space. I now recognize my own codependent tendencies- it was extremely difficult to feel her pull away but I sincerely thought we'd have a shot once she cleared her head. A day later, however, I received a text that this was too serious a matter to move forward and to take care.

I was devastated and even knowing the challenges that might lie ahead, I really want to be with her. We're both working on our issues. I am very loving and kind and know that I don't pose a physical threat to her but wonder (based on her reaction) if she is predisposed to violence.


There's trauma history here to boot. Unfortunately, I did not know the extent until too late. I would definitely approach with more caution in the future- if that were even an option... .

Your thought are appreciated!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[C.Stein]

Welcome  

Sometimes just the smallest thing will trigger a borderline, assuming she is suffering from the disorder.  You can't know what it is or why it happens, it just does.  As you get to know them better you can get a better feel for what will trigger and what won't but even then the dysregulation can come from nowhere.  

As you know now, even feigned physical violence is not going to be received well by anyone regardless of the circumstances.  The alcohol + your disapproval of her behavior made the playful a little less playful.  The only thing you can do here is apologize and give her the space she requested.  Trying to force the issue will not help and you might have to accept you violated a boundary in her mind that can never be violated.

In the meantime educate yourself on personality disorders and what challenges you might face in relationships with someone who suffers from one.   Just about everyone here has some level of codependency as it fits like a glove with borderlines.  You might also examine codependency and explore why you find yourself attracted to borderlines and how your own behavior contributes to a dysfunctional relationship.  This is for your own positive benefit and growth so you can become a more balanced and healthy partner.

[livednlearned]

Hi altact,

I can really identify with your story -- the quick shift from everything moving fast and furious, to a sudden abrupt change and (at least for me) a whiff of fear. It can be very unsettling, especially when you might already be fuzzy headed from alcohol.

Whether she is predisposed to violence or not is hard to say, though if she is BPD, she is definitely prone to emotional dysregulation. People with BPD are emotionally labile and slow to return to baseline. There is extreme rejection sensitivity, and for some, a fear of engulfment, which may be the case with the woman you describe. If she has been physically abused in the past, she will have a hard time with any indication that she is being controlled, whether inadvertent or not.

Did she mention herself that she is BPD?

[altact]

the quick shift from everything moving fast and furious, to a sudden abrupt change and (at least for me) a whiff of fear. It can be very unsettling

Did she mention herself that she is BPD?

LnL,

This issue wasn't on my radar until I went to pick up the pieces following her rejection. A counselor and online contact both weighed in saying they felt I'd done nothing to provoke a reaction of this magnitude and suggested that I do some reading on BPD.

She did not state this explicitly, but I believe she has PTSD (as do I). I am guessing at the rest in an effort to explain what happened and either get closure or figure out how to support her as a partner. She did mention that she wished she had her biweekly counseling session the morning following the blow up so that she could be "as irrational as needed and sort things out".

While her text was pretty decisive (stating that I'd gone too far and to take care), I still have some hope that maybe her perspective will shift during therapy tomorrow. Sadly, she didn't show much interest in anything I had to say and has evidently concluded that I am unsafe to be around. Don't know that I can do anything to alter this perspective. I found her reaction to be more revealing of her own volatility which somehow she's attributing to me. Complicated, jeez.

[livednlearned]

She did not state this explicitly, but I believe she has PTSD (as do I).

It's good that you know that -- it can help you recognize that sometimes it's not just *her fault*/*my fault* but more *what's the dynamic here.*

PTSD can lead to different kinds of responses. Some people shut down, some are easily triggered or volatile. Would you say your PTSD is similar?

Her feelings may settle during her therapy session, like you say. If so, and she reconnects, it's good to understand validation communication skills. Often our initial intent is to justify, argue, defend, or explain (JADE), and this can feel invalidating, which can escalate conflict. 

Sadly, she didn't show much interest in anything I had to say and has evidently concluded that I am unsafe to be around. Don't know that I can do anything to alter this perspective. I found her reaction to be more revealing of her own volatility which somehow she's attributing to me. Complicated, jeez.

Could it be projection on her part? This is a coping mechanism to deal with negative emotions that are easier externalized onto someone else. It can be baffling when you are being told you behaved in a way that could not be further from the truth.

[altact]

LnL,

Thanks very much for your suggestions. I began looking through various threads dealing with effective communication and just received a copy of  The High Conflict Couple, Fruzzetti.

In session today, my counselor was insistent that this relationship would never have worked. That in certain instances couples with similar psychosocial histories can really complement one another. Unfortunately, that's not the impression she gets here. I prayed probably the single longest, most focused prayer of my life a couple of nights ago after trying to reach her (she is receiving but not replying to messages). Part of me is beginning to detach and I am growing numb. I've never had to operate in a vacuum this way before.

I gather it's not uncommon for people to simply disappear in dating situations,but then this was not typical. Both of us expressed a desire for LT commitment... .We talked about possibly moving together when she relocates for work in 6 months, about growing old together. This is the first time in my life I've allowed myself to dream like that making it all the more painful.

[altact]

PTSD can lead to different kinds of responses. Some people shut down, some are easily triggered or volatile. Would you say your PTSD is similar?[/quote]
I do not become aggressive when triggered. I flee or dissociate. Interestingly, immediately following the bar episode, I felt indignant having been accused of physical violence. Not long ago I ended a relationship wherein I was the sole party to acknowledge fault for periods of years at a time.

Fortunately, we both rejected our initial impulses and I was later able to explain that I've often carried/ accepted blame for things without proper attribution. My knee jerk reaction was that this was unreasonable. I did back off and demonstrate remorse, compassion and understanding. She may tend toward violence, but seems to have gotten that in check?[/quote]
Could it be projection on her part? This is a coping mechanism to deal with negative emotions that are easier externalized onto someone else. It can be baffling when you are being told you behaved in a way that could not be further from the truth. [/quote]
Absolutely, but I am totally uncomfortable telling her that she contributed to what I think was a big misunderstanding. Another nugget from therapy today... .that we really did not know one another and that while she was (maybe) projecting her stuff onto me, I was projecting traits of an ideal partner onto her. Possible that we both have seriously distorted perceptions of one another?

[altact]

Welcome  

 

As you know now, even feigned physical violence is not going to be received well by anyone regardless of the circumstances.  The alcohol + your disapproval of her behavior made the playful a little less playful.  The only thing you can do here is apologize and give her the space she requested.  Trying to force the issue will not help and you might have to accept you violated a boundary in her mind that can never be violated.

You are correct on that point. I shouldn't have joked in that manner. For an otherwise very loving, kind and gentle person my timing really sucked.

You might also examine codependency and explore why you find yourself attracted to borderlines and how your own behavior contributes to a dysfunctional relationship.  This is for your own positive benefit and growth so you can become a more balanced and healthy partner.

Funny how you can be brought face to face with your own demons in situations like this. I have a ton of growing to do. She seemed like a great person to do this with because we both recognize our "issues" and are proactive about working through them.

[livednlearned]

If you are in reading mode, another book I recommend is Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment by Dr. Amar Levine.

There's an excerpt here, too.

I believe it's possible to develop a secure attachment style no matter what you went through. The pain and grief is tough to say the least, and it is also a sign of growth.

We are here and will walk with you 

[C.Stein]

Funny how you can be brought face to face with your own demons in situations like this. I have a ton of growing to do. She seemed like a great person to do this with because we both recognize our "issues" and are proactive about working through them.

This is good recognition on your part and can only lead to good things regardless of what happens with her.   

[altact]

I hurt so badly and want to reconnect (with the understanding that we might end up in the same place days, weeks or months from now). I saw the promise of a future with her and am really struggling with what to do next. She set a boundary by pushing me away so I want to honor that, but also feel she should know that I am in a radically different place and am totally willing to do what's needed to ensure her comfort and move forward as a couple.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you have attempted to reconnect and she is not responding?

What you are experiencing might be what I've seen described here as abandonment depression. It can help to focus on how you are responding to the break, and separately, focus on what might improve your chances of reconnecting with her. Treating those separately may involve different skills, different approaches.

Abandonment depression is about what you are doing to try and soothe yourself, and whether you seek her to fix the pain and grief for you. Whereas, focusing on what improves your chances of reconnecting with seems more tactical, like how to communicate with her if the opportunity arises.

We can easily end up on our heels in these relationships, and getting grounded is often helpful to both abandonment depression and increasing chances of a successful reunion.

Do you know anything about what she is doing since ending the relationship?

[altact]

I've left a few messages and texts at long intervals to apologize, ask forgiveness and let her know where I stand- despite the finality of her message to me. I guess I could take her statement at face value and assume she never wants to see me again. Problem is I don't understand. I am trying to apply logic to a situation that defies reason.

She is a mental health professional and a damn good one from what I can tell. She is likely absorbed in her work. Maybe brooding? I get the feeling she may have painted me ugly to the people in her life which could present another obstacle to rekindling things?

Another factor, and I believe this is huge, if she truly thinks I'm an abuser (as informed by past relationships), she may be unwilling to consider information to the contrary. I remember her saying something about "it will never happen again " and thinking she had made a decision that she'd withdraw to avoid any chance of harm. Instead she was putting the words in my mouth. I never voiced that claim and reminded her of that. So, she asked, you intend to do (be physical) in the future? I just reminded her I am kind, gentle and loving. That if I had her background I too might run in the opposite direction. I sensed that trying to convince her of anything might have escalated the conflict.

We've both been on the dating site where we met, but neither of us has made our profile visible to others. We took them down intending to build our connection. I do take it as a good sign that she has read my messages and has not blocked me.

[livednlearned]

I've left a few messages and texts at long intervals to apologize, ask forgiveness and let her know where I stand- despite the finality of her message to me. I guess I could take her statement at face value and assume she never wants to see me again. Problem is I don't understand. I am trying to apply logic to a situation that defies reason.

I wonder if object constancy is in play here. Imagine back to when you first two fell for each other. What were you like? Probably awesome.  Now, she has potentially split you black, and when you do appear back on her radar, it's in the form of someone who feels bad about herself. That might not be quite so attractive. This is something that happens to a lot of us! She may be much more likely to respond to the awesome altact she initially met, without the guilt and sadness. How do you feel about taking a short break from contacting her, and when you do, have it be easy breezy, show you are in a good place?

I sensed that trying to convince her of anything might have escalated the conflict.

These kinds of conversations are tough. They also represent a good opportunity to ask validating questions. Otherwise, we often end up JADE-ing (justify, argue, defend, explain). It's confusing, I know. Someone we love asks if we are going to hurt them, so of course our instinct is to say no. Often, though, the best response is to validate feelings. If her abuser repeatedly told her it would never happen, then very easily you could fall into the trap of sounding like her abuser. "Of course I would never hurt you." Besides that, it's much more likely that she is feeling intimacy and closeness, and it worries her -- meaning, her prime feeling is fear and it is that feeling that she may want validated, without knowing how to ask for it.

A lot of us here, including people with BPD, are not skilled at repair and recovery. Breaches in intimacy and trust happen all the time. It's how we respond that can make all the difference. We often end up learning new skills in this repair and recovery process, and these skills can heal us and help build healthier relationships.

[altact]

Hi,

I would like to get back on better terms with myself first- absolutely a good strategy before trying to approach her again.

The reaction could stem from feelings of closeness because this makes her feel vulnerable? Trying to understand... .a friend of hers actually told me that she's never seen her happier, that she was giddy at work (she also noted that my romantic interest would kill her for saying so)... .we both tried to put the brakes on to some degree. I did end up telling her I loved her before the split though. Sad that it could be interpreted otherwise in the context of I our disagreement.

Your quote follows... .sorry the message is disjointed, composing on my phone

" Besides that, it's much more likely that she is feeling intimacy and closeness, and it worries her -- meaning, her prime feeling is fear and it is that feeling that she may want validated, without knowing how to ask for it".

[/quote]

[JohnLove]

Hello altact, my take on this is to keep it real.

I am unsure what you mean by a "tap on the cheek"?... .could you clarify?... .I understand she obvioulsly took it very badly.

My understanding of dating websites is that they are full of people with personality disorders.

If you believe she has PTSD and that is related to past male relationships then you can be a trigger by just being you. You don't have to do anything "wrong"... .that would be almost inevitable. Your therapist has suggested this already and I believe you have (reluctantly?) agreed.

The "things progressing a bit quickly" is exciting and can be somewhat normal but I feel it is a red flag in your situation. You have not had a chance to build anything real and I don't know how many men she has dated off the website but you'll have to agree things took an "unexpected" turn for the worst where you are concerned and fell apart just as quickly.

The objectification of yourself is another red flag. You are a person with thoughts and feelings... .not a plaything to be tossed aside when the moment takes her. This is concerning but not unexpected if she has a personality disorder, but you were only dating and it is not unexpected for one of you to realise that you are not a good match... .but I smell something. It was right of her to disconnect and advise you of her intentions but an explanation and sharing of thoughts and feelings would be better, even if that was difficult or unpleasant. But know this. She doesn't owe you anything. But lack of closure in any relationship is usually a hallmark of BPD.

The muted attempt at rage?... .is another flag. Passionate is one thing but I don't see it that way at this moment.

The big pull... .and now this big push... .she is "listening" but not responding. Another, do I need to say it?

Being "irrational as needed to sort things out" sounds like she has some degree of her behaviour or self awareness. Not sure this is healthy... .?... .although it sounds like her truth. When people tell you about themselves. LISTEN.

Moving forward may involve you doing NOTHING. Your behaviour sounds like mine has been. Trying to be responsible for someone else. Care taking. If she is not interested anymore in pursuing things then she can simply restate her position on the matter. I suspect there isnt much more you can/could do now the ball is in HER court but she may be waiting for you to do all the pulling or heavy lifting in "fixing" things for HER. Sigh. More red flags.

Her friend said she saw her in the extreme idealisation phase?... .not a bad thing in itself, quite exciting to be validated like that but she also noted that she would not want your GF to learn of this. Could be that she actually doesn't want to reveal too much (healthy) or actually manipulation (unhealthy). That's for you to work out.

If she is a "mental health professional" and a "damn good one at that" then it should not be too difficult for her to apply this logic to her own life.

If you suspect she has smeared you already to her friends... .well, what can I say?, other than she would only "look bad" to her friends by contradicting herself... .and for people with a PD. How things "look" can be EVERYTHING. It is related to shame. Potentially another  .

Prayer is a good thing. Asking for help or leaving it to the universe, God, or Gods, or a higher power is a healthy thing to do.

I feel that you have validated her enough already... .and provided her an out. It's up to her to act on that. Again. Not you.

I can already see why your therapist has taken his/her position. The contributors that have posted in your thread have offered very helpful perspectives for you to consider.

I suspect she might be drawing you into a FOG and that is yet another flag. If you still have hopes for this relationship I would be really interested in what happens next.

I wish the best for you.

[altact]

Hello altact, my take on this is to keep it real.

      Straight from the urban dictionary: "Staying true to yourself, your faith, your life and constantly seeking the truth. You are keeping it

      real  as long as you do not harm yourself or anyone around you physically mentally or spiritually."

I am unsure what you mean by a "tap on the cheek"?... .could you clarify?... .I understand she obvioulsly took it very badly.

       I try to replay that moment to figure it out. I did not feel my hand contact her cheek... .there was zero force behind the motion (e.g.

       came from the wrist). Almost immediately it was apparent she felt embarrassed, not hurt and we arrived at this conclusion together.

       It was already too late by that point.

If you believe she has PTSD and that is related to past male relationships then you can be a trigger by just being you. You don't have to do anything "wrong"... .that would be almost inevitable. Your therapist has suggested this already and I believe you have (reluctantly?) agreed.

       Sorry. I am not getting it... .how does gender play into the situation?

The "things progressing a bit quickly" is exciting and can be somewhat normal but I feel it is a red flag in your situation. You have not had a chance to build anything real and I don't know how many men she has dated off the website but you'll have to agree things took an "unexpected" turn for the worst where you are concerned and fell apart just as quickly.

       Her claim (and I had no reason to believe otherwise) is that she'd had requests for threesomes and got weird vibes from other

       contacts, so had yet to meet anyone else and had been using the site for 6 months. Said she reserves intimacy for relationships-

       though this may not always have been the case. Don't know her complete history in that respect.

You are a person with thoughts and feelings... .not a plaything to be tossed aside when the moment takes her.

      All sorts of insecurities came up for me throughout our short time together. I had a difficult time accepting complements and

      kept comparing myself to her in terms of professional accomplishments, etc. I was concerned that it wouldn't last, but made it difficult

      to sustain with my doubts and lack of self-confidence. Didn't realize how deeply wounded I am and the work that's needed. We engaged

      in teasing and probably put too much emphasis on the physical aspects of the relationship. I see that I used this to mask the intensity

      of what I was feeling for her... .When I reacted negatively to her sexual references (shame, embarrassment, hurt) she would try to

      minimize it and tell me to enjoy the humor in it. Felt terrible. I especially needed reassurance after our first time together--less than

      24 hours prior to the bar incident.   


But lack of closure in any relationship is usually a hallmark of BPD.

      Even though I messed up this is very distasteful to me.

The muted attempt at rage?... .is another flag. Passionate is one thing but I don't see it that way at this moment.

     Meaning her alluding to how she wanted to knock me out for what I'd done? Yeah... .she went on to say that she's taken a lot of

     physical abuse (black eyes and broken bones) and that she's not proud of it but she's learned to defend herself, has a concealed

     carry permit, etc.

I can already see why your therapist has taken his/her position. The contributors that have posted in your thread have offered very helpful perspectives for you to consider.

     Absolutely! I was so lost and feel extremely grateful for the help of the community here  .

I suspect she might be drawing you into a FOG and that is yet another flag. If you still have hopes for this relationship I would be really interested in what happens next.

     I do feel kind of like I'm stuck in a maze. Need to look more into the FOG. People just start doubting their own experience and feelings?

I wish the best for you.

     Thank you for your kindness and for weighing in on the topic- it has made a tremendous difference. I hope that you are well.

[HopefulDad]

From the posts so far, it appears that you just recently started dating and then "Both of us expressed a desire for LT commitment... .We talked about possibly moving together when she relocates for work in 6 months, about growing old together."  Am I reading this right?

If not, please ignore.  If so, don't you think there are a lot of   that you should be seeing when you look in the mirror?

[altact]

I've not been out dating and have been told by a number of people that things can progress quickly at our age (30s). Trying to gauge what's normal and was going with things as they unfolded, but not without some restraint. We both are looking for partnership not a one time thing. That was specified up front- not as a result of our interactions. I don't know that it's too unusual to try to envision a future with someone? Red flags when I look in the mirror? Yes, I have things to deal with and have not suggested otherwise. Help me understand where you're going with that?

Thanks!

[HopefulDad]

I've not been out dating and have been told by a number of people that things can progress quickly at our age (30s). Trying to gauge what's normal and was going with things as they unfolded, but not without some restraint. We both are looking for partnership not a one time thing. That was specified up front- not as a result of our interactions. I don't know that it's too unusual to try to envision a future with someone? Red flags when I look in the mirror? Yes, I have things to deal with and have not suggested otherwise. Help me understand where you're going with that?

Thanks!

I'm trying to understand the timeline.  From your posts, it sounds like you recently started dating this woman.  And already the talk of "moving in together, growing old together" has come up?  Envisioning a future is one thing... .you're entitled to dream big dreams.  But talking about it with the other person so soon?  Seems very fast if I have your timeline right.  When "a number of people" tell you things can progress quickly at your age, is that what they meant by quickly?  And also, is perhaps some confirmation bias on your part giving their comments added weight?

[altact]

Hi,

We're looking at about a month from beginning to present. She was just offered a job out of state, so there was discussion around the potential for us down the line. I would have considered relocating. There was mention of level of comfort and familiarity we experienced together (maybe not a great sign in this case) and I think that played into how quickly our feelings developed. We had/ have? 6 months to get to know one another and make a decision, though I believe she has decided for us 

[HopefulDad]

Honestly, that's a lot to squeeze into a month.  You will get range of opinions if that's normal or not, but my guess is that based on most people's life experiences, you will hear more comments along the lines of "tap the brakes a bit" rather than "full speed ahead".  And the reasons are primarily based on, "You barely know this person.  You think you do, but you really don't.  You are projecting a future with her based on what you think you see... .perhaps what you want to see, not what is really there."  And that's the   I'm talking about.

[altact]

Got you, thanks for that. I was feeling a little defensive there, but I need to look at the situation with a critical eye and appreciate the reality check. It would be amazing to just get to know her better if we could cut through the crap---and we both bring plenty 

[JohnLove]

... .and that's the trouble with mid life dating, people have SO MUCH BAGGAGE by then.

[JohnLove]

If you believe she has PTSD and that is related to past male relationships then you can be a trigger by just being you. You don't have to do anything "wrong"... .that would be almost inevitable. Your therapist has suggested this already and I believe you have (reluctantly?) agreed.

      Sorry. I am not getting it... .how does gender play into the situation?

The muted attempt at rage?... .is another flag. Passionate is one thing but I don't see it that way at this moment.

    Meaning her alluding to how she wanted to knock me out for what I'd done? Yeah... .she went on to say that she's taken a lot of

    physical abuse (black eyes and broken bones) and that she's not proud of it but she's learned to defend herself, has a concealed

    carry permit, etc.

Thanks for the clarification of the "incident".

I can see EXACTLY what happened here. You TRIGGERED her PTSD trauma BIG TIME.

Altact, even a playful "tap" with no force and the best of intentions has caused her to come apart at the seems.

Gender plays into the situation because she has been SEVERELY abused by men... .and YOU are MALE. THAT right there is a causual link. She is projecting her trauma on to you. This has very little to do with you and everything to do with her. Your only "fault" was being a man.

In HER mind she is almost expecting you to abuse her. She knew it was only a matter of time. She "sees" your action as an ASSAULT on her... .and technically in the politically correct world we live in, the police would see it the same (taken out of any context of course). YOU WERE SET UP... .know this has almost nothing to do with you.

She has lived a life of extreme physical abuse from MEN. Black eyes and broken bones is EXTREME unless she has a vitamin deficiency and osteoporosis.    A concealed weapon permit is an indication just how unsafe she feels.

Her trying to get you to see the humour in things may have been inappropriate but it is an ideal way to live. No one gets out of this "alive"    that is a healthy coping mechanism... .

While I am sure she has many positive attributes, her prior relationships with men isn't one of them... .and to be perfectly frank, she sounds like a basket case.