codependence and manipulation worry

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have been going through some of the lessons and was reading about codependency. I see for sure that we all have to be codependent to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD. I am struggling a bit with some of the traits of codependency though, meaning I think we develop some of them in response to the behavior of the pwBPD?

For example manipulation? I know everyone is manipulative on some level. I don't think I was being manipulative how my ex was, I know there were times I'm sure I was manipulative, but isn't everyone to some level? The level to which he is manipulative is beyond anything I ever knew was possible.

I am worrying that I was manipulative and didn't know it, or that he thinks I was? I think this is just me getting caught up in the cycle of guilt and second guessing myself.

Does anyone struggle with this?

[apepper21]

I have been going through some of the lessons and was reading about codependency. I see for sure that we all have to be codependent to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD. I am struggling a bit with some of the traits of codependency though, meaning I think we develop some of them in response to the behavior of the pwBPD?

For example manipulation? I know everyone is manipulative on some level. I don't think I was being manipulative how my ex was, I know there were times I'm sure I was manipulative, but isn't everyone to some level? The level to which he is manipulative is beyond anything I ever knew was possible.

I am worrying that I was manipulative and didn't know it, or that he thinks I was? I think this is just me getting caught up in the cycle of guilt and second guessing myself.

Does anyone struggle with this?

[patientandclear]

I don't think it's true that everyone who gets involved in BPD r/ships is co-dependent. Some people have healthy reactions and are patient and open-minded and do their best for a while in a situation where what is best and right is very confusing. They give people second chances and try to heal and make things better with someone they care about. That is not co-dependent per se, and the concept of "running at the first red flag" itself may be a dysfunctional adaptation to past hurt.

There is a difference between wanting something, which we all do, and asking for it, which is healthy ... .And using reward and withholding systems to get what we want from someone who doesn't want to give it, which is what I would call manipulation.  Which better fits how you behaved?

[apepper21]

I don't think it's true that everyone who gets involved in BPD r/ships is co-dependent. Some people have healthy reactions and are patient and open-minded and do their best for a while in a situation where what is best and right is very confusing. They give people second chances and try to heal and make things better with someone they care about. That is not co-dependent per se, and the concept of "running at the first red flag" itself may be a dysfunctional adaptation to past hurt.

There is a difference between wanting something, which we all do, and asking for it, which is healthy ... .And using reward and withholding systems to get what we want from someone who doesn't want to give it, which is what I would call manipulation.  Which better fits how you behaved?

That explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

I tried a LOT to do what was right and thought I was having normal healthy reactions to things and then I was so confused b/c nothing I did was right or was good at one point and then WRONG the next minute!

I made a point not to use reward/withholding behaviors. I asked often for what I wanted, when it wouldn't happen or caused enough fights I just stopped asking and accepted it wasn't going to happen.

Something I did, but I don't think was wrong, was to stop talking so much, about myself. I started doing this b/c I realized that he didn't actually care about me, what I was saying, it was more like if I was talking/sharing my feelings/opinions etc then he felt loved. BUT he didn't remember things I said, didn't follow up on things that he said he was interested in knowing about, start talking about something completely different, would stop listening in the middle of a conversation (evidneced by not responding to a question) would literally fall asleep in the MIDDLE of a sentence when I was telling him something very personal that he had ASKED me! So to protect myself I literally wrote myself reminders not to talk about certain things b/c I had been hurt so many times. So I guess one could say that's withdrawing, but it wasn't in an attempt to get him to do something, it was to protect myself.

Thank you for asking that, I have realized that I was not manipulative (other than the normal things people do). 

[WoundedBibi]

I am worrying that I was manipulative and didn't know it, or that he thinks I was?

If your ex thinks you were manipulative or not is irrelevant. 1) he's your ex & 2) if he has BPD he will have a distorted view of you anyway.

Focus on you.

If you worry you were manipulative, sit yourself down, grab a tea or coffee and paper & pen (sorry, I'm old fashioned like that. Probably should say 'tablet' and try -without judging yourself and feeling ashamed or guilty- analyse some of the situations you're afraid you were being manipulative. What did he say or do? What was the setting? What did you say or do? Did you say or do it to get a certain effect? Would you have said or done the same with someone else? Did it feel at the time it was unlike you to act like that? Were you panicking?

Just be honest with yourself and see what's there. And what is means to YOU if there is anything there.

As you said, all people are manipulative to an extent. We're human not saints.

These descriptions of illnesses, traits, behaviour etc. are generic. One size fits all. It would be impossible to describe all variables or put in disclaimers. We recovering NONs are analyzing all we read to the letter. ":)o I recognize my ex in this? I dunno... .cause it says here they do blah but I think he did more of a blah blah... Does this mean he doesn't have BPD? Am I wrong?" "WOW... manipulation... did I do that? Am I a witch? Ohhhhh... .I feel guilty now... .I'm a witch... Where's the ice cream?"

Not everything fits. All BPD have things in common and things that set them apart from each other. They don't all come from the same factory mold. They have BPD but they're still human. So are we. We don't all come from the same factory mold either.

And yes, I do think codependency and being in a relationship with a pwPD makes you act in ways you normally wouldn't. I know I did. I said things to my ex of which -while I said them- thought "WHAT am I saying? This isn't me... ." But I said them because I thought it would make him think A or B. Manipulative. Not that conscious, I said them without really thinking, almost from instinct. But the instinct probably was 'anything to make sure he doesn't stop loving me'. It was as if I was jumping through hoops.

And yes, I feel ashamed for those things. Ashamed far more than guilty. I wish I was better than that.

Detaching from a BPD relationship is much more than getting over a failed relationship. It is also realizing what your old wounds were that made you attracted to and attractive for the pwBPD. What wounds made you stay. What wounds made you say, do, behave as you did. Realizing we're not 100% healthy ourselves. Seeing wanting to save others is a misplaced grandiose idea, softly whispering "I can save you, because I'm stronger than you, I know more than you and your previous partners, I can point the way because I'm better than you... "

Being in a BPD relationship is manipulative in itself.

But that doesn't make you an awful person. You're trying to educate yourself. About BPD and about relationships and about you. You're trying to learn. Some if the things we run into are very painful. But they are painful because it makes us realize we are not without fault ourselves, we are -oh horror- not perfect...

See if there is any truth in what you read. Don't judge yourself. Don't go overboard, it's not a one size fits all. If you don't like what you see, try and think what you could do to change it.

Isn't that what life is all about? Growing?

[apepper21]

If your ex thinks you were manipulative or not is irrelevant. 1) he's your ex & 2) if he has BPD he will have a distorted view of you anyway.

BB, very very good point, I lose sight of this all too easily!

As you said, all people are manipulative to an extent. We're human not saints.

These descriptions of illnesses, traits, behaviour etc. are generic. One size fits all. It would be impossible to describe all variables or put in disclaimers. We recovering NONs are analyzing all we read to the letter. ":)o I recognize my ex in this? I dunno... .cause it says here they do blah but I think he did more of a blah blah... Does this mean he doesn't have BPD? Am I wrong?" "WOW... manipulation... did I do that? Am I a witch? Ohhhhh... .I feel guilty now... .I'm a witch... Where's the ice cream?"

I cracked up when I read this b/c this is EXACTLY what happens to me:)

Thank you for reminding me that even if I was doing things "wrong" it was b/c I was trying to cope the best I could and that I am working on myself to change those things. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person or excuse EVERYTHING he did/didn't do. I find one little thing I regret or fear I did wrong and start thinking I have to excuse all of his behavior, as proof that I deserved it somehow.

THANK YOU!

Rough morning/afternoon with MAJOR focus on this relationship, meaning trying to make sense or something? Can't explain it really, but I've been reading stuff on the site or a book I have pretty much all day... .I need a break. But I keep thinking I need to know more, understand more so I will be strong. However, I think it's also keeping me stuck in it? I can't tell. But I'm feeling like I"m grasping for something I'm not going to find.

[WoundedBibi]

As you said, all people are manipulative to an extent. We're human not saints.

These descriptions of illnesses, traits, behaviour etc. are generic. One size fits all. It would be impossible to describe all variables or put in disclaimers. We recovering NONs are analyzing all we read to the letter. ":)o I recognize my ex in this? I dunno... .cause it says here they do blah but I think he did more of a blah blah... Does this mean he doesn't have BPD? Am I wrong?" "WOW... manipulation... did I do that? Am I a witch? Ohhhhh... .I feel guilty now... .I'm a witch... Where's the ice cream?"

I cracked up when I read this b/c this is EXACTLY what happens to me:)

Humour is a great force in life 

Thank you for reminding me that even if I was doing things "wrong" it was b/c I was trying to cope the best I could and that I am working on myself to change those things. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person or excuse EVERYTHING he did/didn't do.

^^^ exactly... .You're welcome 

Rough morning/afternoon with MAJOR focus on this relationship, meaning trying to make sense or something? Can't explain it really, but I've been reading stuff on the site or a book I have pretty much all day... .I need a break. But I keep thinking I need to know more, understand more so I will be strong. However, I think it's also keeping me stuck in it? I can't tell. But I'm feeling like I"m grasping for something I'm not going to find.

Let's be honest, as long as we are here we're a least a bit stuck. We are really free of all of this once we leave this site and do not return.

Reading up on "everything you always wanted to know about BPD but were afraid to ask" can get to be a bit of a compulsion or obsession. Then again, we need something to hold on to...

It will lessen over time, this NEED to know. It comes with the realization that you will never know for sure.

You can't look inside his head. You will never know if all of what he said is true.

Or fully understand what it means to have BPD and to have your feelings do a 180 on you every 5 minutes.

Or be able to look into your own head and completely understand yourself.

You will never grasp it all. And that is fine.

Breath... .Take a BPD-break     Make yourself a cup of tea, stand on your head for 10 minutes, do the laundry (that reminds me... ), plan a night out with girlfriends, let go of frantically searching the truth for a moment.

[apepper21]

Let's be honest, as long as we are here we're a least a bit stuck. We are really free of all of this once we leave this site and do not return.

Reading up on "everything you always wanted to know about BPD but were afraid to ask" can get to be a bit of a compulsion or obsession. Then again, we need something to hold on to...

It will lessen over time, this NEED to know. It comes with the realization that you will never know for sure.

You can't look inside his head. You will never know if all of what he said is true.

Or fully understand what it means to have BPD and to have your feelings do a 180 on you every 5 minutes.

Or be able to look into your own head and completely understand yourself.

You will never grasp it all. And that is fine.

Breath... .Take a BPD-break   smiley  Make yourself a cup of tea, stand on your head for 10 minutes, do the laundry (that reminds me... ), plan a night out with girlfriends, let go of frantically searching the truth for a moment.

Thank you WB, for relating. It gets really obsessive and I even think that if I stop for a second, from reading about it and keeping track of things that happened, then I will not feel better, or that he will get to me. If I read enough I can prevent him from getting to me, or I can prevent feelings or something. That I will "get it" enough to just move on. But now it's taking over.

I'm going to a yoga class, so that will be a good break, and hopefully refocus my attention on other things.

I keep getting surprised when I get sucked back in like this. Some days I can keep it under control, remind myself with a little reading or posting, but today it's consumed me and I wasn't expecting that.

Well, here is to a BPD break!

[lingering]

This really resonates for me:  

Detaching from a BPD relationship is much more than getting over a failed relationship. It is also realizing what your old wounds were that made you attracted to and attractive for the pwBPD. What wounds made you stay. What wounds made you say, do, behave as you did. ont=Verdana] Realizing we're not 100% healthy ourselves.  Seeing wanting to save others is a misplaced grandiose idea, softly whispering "I can save you, because I'm stronger than you, I know more than you and your previous partners, I can point the way because I'm better than you... "[/font]

Being in a BPD relationship is manipulative in itself.

Wow WoundedBiBi - such a beautiful and wise post - all of it.  My wounded part, looking back was always feeling not good enough (like from childhood on... .).  I went to school became a therapist, excelled at single parenting... .all to prove I was good enough.  So the soft whisper above is just so completely me.  It is ugly hard to own but I will do so because it is exactly what I was doing.   !  I was cloaking it by calling it Love.  Ug!  Wow.

Thanks for this.  

Lingering No More

[WoundedBibi]

It IS ugly hard.

I'm still working on accepting that saving someone is a narcissistic thing. At least I now know that I'm doing it. Now 'all I need to do' is get of my high horse. And it's a big drop...

You're welcome. This board has given me a lot.

[C.Stein]

I'm still working on accepting that saving someone is a narcissistic thing.

It doesn't have to be.  IMO there is nothing wrong with helping someone in a time of need.  It is your own personal motivations for doing so that make it narcissistic or not.

You can't save someone from themselves though.  You can guide them, support them, help them to help themselves, but ultimately they are the ones that need to take responsibility for their lives.  The "saving" all too often comes with taking responsibility for the person you are saving and this is seriously unhealthy regardless of who you are dealing with.  When you find yourself doing something where the other person can say  well you told me to do ___ or it's your fault because you said ___ , etc ... .  then you are in an unhealthy dynamic where you are taking responsibility for another persons life. 

My ex tried to put me in this position on many occasions and I refused to let her.   That said it was also one of the reasons why I bottled up my emotions and this did a great deal of damage to me.  It also damaged our relationship.

[WoundedBibi]

I'm still working on accepting that saving someone is a narcissistic thing.

It doesn't have to be.  IMO there is nothing wrong with helping someone in a time of need.

You can't save someone from themselves though.

That's what I said. Helping and saving are two different things and we confuse the two.

Saving IMO is narcissistic because with realizing it you're saying "where you and all other have failed in making you happy, I will succeed." That doesn't mean you go into a relationship like this with a conscious motivation to be a saviour.

The "saving" all too often comes with taking responsibility for the person you are saving and this is seriously unhealthy regardless of who you are dealing with.  When you find yourself doing something where the other person can say  well you told me to do ___ or it's your fault because you said ___ , etc ... .  then you are in an unhealthy dynamic where you are taking responsibility for another persons life.

I can think of some other examples that seem to happen a lot judging by the posts made on the board: doing whatever to get someone (pwBPD or not) out of a sticky situation they got themselves into. So going to a third party they had an argument with to smooth things over, taking over their finances, using your network to land them a job, stuff like that.

[lingering]

It IS ugly hard.

I'm still working on accepting that saving someone is a narcissistic thing. At least I now know that I'm doing it. Now 'all I need to do' is get of my high horse. And it's a big drop...

You're welcome. This board has given me a lot.

"Saving someone is a narcissistic thing... ."  Yeah... .wow!  I'm firing myself from that job.  Big drop... .hahaha!