I really am in need of DESPERATE help :(

[Chris_1982]

Hi people.

I will try and keep this as brief as I can, but I want to include ALL the relative facts. I will really appreciate any help on this.

As I'm typing this, I can feel my eyes welling up.  :'(

I'm a 34 year old male who met a 25 year old girl on a dating site, 6 months ago, who I fell in love with pretty much instantly. She was everything I had ever dreamt of.

3 months into the relationship, things weren't quite as I expected them to be, and the "cracks" started to appear gradually. I started receiving an onslaught of daily verbal abuse and push/pull activity.

"GET OUT OF MY FLAT, NOW!" ... .Then ... ."IF YOU WALK OUT OF THAT DOOR AND LEAVE ME, DON'T YOU EVER THINK YOU'LL BE COMING BACK!"

Of course, what with me being slightly narcissistic, a caregiver-type, a rescuer, a "fixer", I STAYED, pretty much every single time.

She is undiagnosed, and when I told her politely that I think she may have BPD, there was RAGE AND HATE directed instantly at me.

In the meantime, she turned the steering wheel of my car on Boxing Day (2016), and crashed it (total write off). We both nearly died.

I cared for her non-stop when she had a broken ankle as a result. Did EVERYTHING I possibly could to help her, and as soon as her foot/ankle healed, she was back to being completely nasty again.

I proposed to her on Valentine's Day, as I do genuinely love her to the point that I've never loved another girl before. She accepted the proposal, and looked ecstatic/over the moon, and for the next few weeks, everything was fine.

She verbally abused me to the absolute core of my being last week, and said stuff that was beyond hurtful, and I got angry/upset and stormed off.

I've so far maintained 6 days of pure NC (No Contact) with her. I've avoided all her Facebook Messenger messages, (I feel awful doing this, but I hope it will work out for the best in the long run.)

She has kept our relationship as "Engaged" on Facebook, and keeps trying her hardest to get my attention by posting stuff that "normally" I would react strongly to.

This time around, I haven't. I want to get it right.

Here's also some key facts that might help you decide what I'm dealing with;

• Saw her mother getting abused (physically, not sexually) as a child.

• Has no contact with her Dad. (Told me she wants a father-type figure to make her feel "secure)

• Has a three-year old daughter. The father is a violent man.

• She is one of a twin (the other died at birth)

• Previously abused Mephedrone for 8 months.

• Drinks Alcohol to the point of complete stupidity (only at weekends)

• Wants me to cut out ALL of my family and friends, and blackmails me if I suggest seeing any of them.

• Never EVER apologises. It's always me that apologises, just to "keep the peace."

The burning question I'd like to ask is this;

How do I now approach her after NC? What I'd like to happen is ... .I suggest she goes for some kind of anger management / therapy etc, or else I'm leaving her for good.

If she loves me as much as she says she does, do you think she is likely to respect that decision?

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Once again, I will appreciate ANY useful replies on this.

~Chris x

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thisagain]

Welcome Chris, I can tell how much you love her, and her behavior must be so confusing! I'm glad you found bpdfamily and hope we can help you find some peace.

First things first - have you taken any steps since the car crash to protect your physical safety? That must have been terrifying, and it sounds like she might repeat that kind of behavior.

Many of us have tried to tell our partners that we think they have BPD and gotten similar reactions. Generally, it's considered unproductive. Some of the reasons for that, and alternative strategies, are described here: PERSPECTIVES: Telling someone that you think they have BPD.

There are also many members here, myself included, whose relationship failed even though the BPD partner was in therapy or agreed to an ultimatum at one point. My ex's therapists were not skilled at recognizing or treating her BPD, and on many occasions inadvertently exacerbated her BPD symptoms. There are even members here whose partners are in DBT--supposed to be the gold standard for BPD therapy--and still say that their partners are getting worse or at least not better. Unless someone is ready to face the full extent of their problems, it is very difficult for a therapist to help them.

Sadly it's not about how much she loves you. The nature of BPD is that the person is fully convinced that they are in the right and everyone else is wrong, evil, and out to get them. People with BPD also tend to project their problems onto others. So she may love you very much, but also be genuinely convinced that YOU are the one with a mental illness and YOU need therapy. Most of us have heard that accusation many times.

A relationship involving BPD has the highest chance of success if the non-BPD partner is able to be emotionally steady, master certain tools to improve the relationship, and radically accept (rather than try to change) the partner's illness. The focus is on your own behavior, not her. Which is not to say that you're more at fault or you're "the problem"--rather that as the non- or less-disordered partner, you have more potential for improvement on your side of things. There is a good overview here: What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship and much more specific info in the board Lessons.

The slightly-narcissistic and/or "fixer" traits you've identified are very common traits in partners of pwBPD, and can make it difficult to take the steps needed to improve the relationship. What do you think about the possibility of trying to improve the relationship by focusing on your own behavior?

[DearBFF]

My experiences have all been with my best friend so I cannot really give very good advice on this... .that said I always feel a bit of an advantage at this since we are not related I can stay away since she doesn't have to be in my life for any particular reason.  No family birthday parties, etc.  Also, since she is not my romantic partner I am not trying to build a life with her.  Although I very much want to be in her life forever, it's different.  I also sometimes feel at a disadvantage because of this though because I am not her lover she is not actively trying to build a life with me so she can discard me like trash and barely give it a second thought (until she's along crying that's she's lost me again to her behavior and I did nothing to deserve it which she has told me before).  Also, because I am not family, this means when she pushes me away I don't get those chance meetings at family birthday parties, etc.  *sigh*  So it's different... . This means I could never use what I mention below which may be of some help to you.

In everything I have read people who struggle with BPD and then get help have to be ready to get help, and it is usually only once they have hit rock bottom.  Unfortunately, for them, rock bottom does not look like it does to most people.  It can be after decades of hospital stays, suicide attempts, self-harm, failed relationships, etc... . Here's the thing though I have read many stories about people getting help when it's part of an ultimatum.  Mind you, this can also go horribly wrong, but if you've already accepted this could be the end then you may be alright with that and this may be your last ditch effort.  

If you do go this route though you have to stand firm and not back down which means you need SUPPORT.  Yes in all CAPS, because I mean it big time!  Not friends or family who will say, "You're better off without her" but really truly people who understand and can be there for you when you want nothing more than to go to her when she leaves you countless sobbing voice mails, or threatens to end her life if you do to not go to her ASAP.  If she chooses that option, that is her choice and you have to understand that.  

So if you think it is something you might want to do first and foremost get a plan in place.  Get yourself some help ASAP, a psychologist/therapist, specifically and only someone who understands and treats people who have BPD who is willing to work with you on this plan.  You will need them as no one will know better how to predict reactions you should plan for than them, with your information and feedback of course.  If they can recommend some support groups you can join, by all means do so, even if you think you may not need them you never know when you will and at a weak point it may mean the difference between crawling back to her because you cannot say NO and standing firm and telling her NO.  

Also, this may seem odd, but ask if they might have any patients who ended up getting treatment because a family member of loved one gave them an ultimatum.  If any of them are in a good place, ask if they may be willing to talk to you about their feelings so you can better understand what she may feel when it happens.  There is no substitute for truly understanding what someone feels in the moment, and unfortunately, a BPD who is not getting help and has not learned to communicate especially when under complete emotional meltdown is not going to tell you how they feel deep down inside.  Sure they can tell you yelling and screaming, and they hate you, and you're awful, etc... .but they can't tell you the truth of the mix that goes with that.  That they're scared and they love you, and they don't want to lose you, etc.  If someone who is currently seeking help for their BPD or even recovered from their BPD can talk to you, you will feel hope and see how normal the conversation can be (which I know sounds odd, but honestly it's true).  Maybe there is a DBT group who would welcome an outsider to share feedback with the group while allowing them to share feedback with you, just be mindful of the words you use and respectful when speaking about your experiences that they will be close to home for all involved.  When you can see it is possible for someone who still struggles or once struggled with BPD to sit down and have a conversation about thoughts and feelings that they once struggled with or still struggle with today, you will see that it can happen and it may give you the strength to try and see if it could happen for you.  It may not... .don't get your hopes up, but having hope really does help.

I hope nothing I said came off too harsh, but it's the only advice I have to give and there is no way to sugarcoat it.  You do have one card you can play, it's not a good one, but it may be all you have left.  It could end in disaster, but if you are willing to see where it goes, it could also be the thing that puts the train back on the tracks.  On one hand, it is the fact that you have this close relationship with her that she treats you this way and shows you all of her BPD behavior... .On the other hand, it's entirely possible that due to your close relationship with her that only allowing that relationship to continue (albeit limited and with very good boundaries) could be the one thing that may convince her to get help.  

Good luck... .I hope it goes well, but know that if it goes badly we're here for you.

Also, if it does go badly, do yourself a favor and move on.  Do not dwell, do not let her come back over and over saying ok she'll change or get help only for her to abandon it over and over.  If you feel strong enough speaking to her if this happens you can listen, but don't anything she says to heart (especially about you or anything you have done to keep yourself safe and sane).  You can listen, wish her luck and tell her hope she gets something good out of it.  Then let her go, if she doesn't you go.  Do not let yourself be dragged back in. 

Be mindful that she could show up one day acting just like the girl you feel in love with, but always remember that the BPD is still in there.  Until she can truly speak openly and honestly about it, and her struggles and thoughts/feelings showing all she has learned do not trust that she has changed.  I've lost count of how many times I have seen my best friend show up and shower me with love and affection, just like the girl I remember from the beginning, only to see her turn right back into the person who belittles me, takes everything I say as negative, and then discards me as if I never meant anything.  Yes, I know they are the same person, but that doesn't make it easier when you truly want to believe they are different.

Take care  

[tryingtohelp]

Hi Chris1982

I read your post and can understand and identify with most of what you are dealing with,  and personally speaking , even tho it's rather too late now,    I would not have suggested to her that you thought she has BPD,  I don't go there with my S.O , who is your age and diagnosed BPD.  Even tho diagnosed, she still dismisses it . She likes to refer to it as PTSD.

I suppose to see it from your girlfriend's point of view it would be like someone you cared about getting alongside you and suggesting you are insane.  How would you react ?   

Every aspect of a relationship with a BPD is a minefield.   The 'Push - Pull' aspect for me is one of the worst,  I hate this and don't deal with it well most times,  the whole concept is destructive to any healthy relationship and renders it almost unworkable.  To be Pulled in , told how much I mean to her , all the wonderful moments that are what good relationships are about , to feel some meaningful connectivity , everything tranquil and near perfect,  then without warning up go the barriers, that feeling of being Pushed away again,  no answer to phone calls, or texts etc, the 'un-availability'   It is insanity. The Push - Pull cycle certainly is a wake up , the dream, then the bucket of water over the head.  Is it worth it ?  because it will never change. I have had 8 years of it ,(oh and also the list of other guys )   and now have adopted a kind of system where I have my own home and she has her flat and when she goes nuts I keep out of her way till she settles again , till the cycle repeats.   

[tryingtohelp]

I certainly know what this feels like:   and then discards me as if I never meant anything  to quote Dear BFF

[Thread]

If I knew what I know now I wouldn't have stayed. Eveything you are describing are situations I am and I'm sure many people on this site are very familiar with.

If she goes to therapy. She is not going because she thinks there is a problem with her, she will most likely go to appease you or get you back. Once you are back the behavior will cycle back around to the emotional abuse. Ultimatums typically don't work. My husband who is Bpd still till this day refuses to believe he is. Also was diagnosed w anxiety before meeting me and refused to even admit having anxiety and depression (he takes medication for it, which has subtly improved his edginess).

He is also in the DBT therapy. It has helped in ways. However the ups and downs varying from every 5 weeks to every 3 months is still happening. I've figured out what triggers his BPd behaviors, but I cannot control everything. So when it happens guess what I get emotionally abused all over again. Again not as bad as before, but still very very hurtful and frustrating.

But getting him into therapy and not for me or our relationship but for him took 3 years. And I still am unsure if he really believes he needs it or not. I had to leave him for a year before he even agreed to do therapy. And I still believe it's may be to make sure I don't leave again, but again it being more about the end goal of me not leaving not necessarily because he needs to make changes.

And lastly. I still have never felt the connection we initially had before in those first few months. About 3-5. And marriage has only made the behaviors worse for me. More responsibility more vulnerability. More fear of losing me. And guess what it's been almost 2 years since he has been back in my life and I still feel that big disconnect. I hardly say I love you. Once I slow down from our business to spend quality time together in no way am I happy because there is no connectivity between us without work.

It's super sad actually.

My advice stay in NC. The reason I went back, I thought it would change. He is my husband and I made a vow. But I don't believe it will ever change. And I don't know if I can ever be okay with the random spouts of emotional abuse and disconnecting from taking it personally. It is personal. And it's sad.

[DearBFF]

tryingtohelp, I actually did tell my BFF about BPD and initially the reaction was GREAT!  She had been asking since a few months into our friendship about why she does what she does, what is wrong with her, and similar questions.  I never really asked her what she meant, I mean I saw the behaviors, but didn't truly understand them until about 9 months in when I found BPD.  Then it all clicked... .I figured even if these means us no longer being friends because she reacts badly because of my love for her I want to offer her the information.  If she takes it and it's a good thing, great!  If she rejects it and it's a bad thing, that's fine too.  She actually reacted really well... .didn't like the term BPD, understandably and was more comfortable with emotionally unstable which is basically what it is.  She took all of the information I gave and even thanked me, repeatedly.  I offered her a DBT book which she took and began working in immediately.  She was calmer overall and more introspective, asking questions at times about her behavior to try and better understand.

Then the problem... .which was two-fold.  The first part, her boyfriend at the time came in and saw her working on the DBT book.  She tried to explain BPD to him and it went badly.  At this time, their relationship was on the rocks as it was, which is why she had brought me back into her life at this time.  His bad reaction started to cause a chain reaction with her then painting me black for bringing her the information, even though she agreed 100% at the time with the possibility of her having BPD. This guy soon left the picture, and she had 2 guys lined up and a new BFF before she ditched me.  It was over something stupid as usual.  I could tell at least one of the guys didn't have her best interest in mind, or her daughter's so I mentioned it and she took offense.  She later said I was right, but at the time it was easier for her to cut me off.  So that was about 1 month NC, but easier than previous times.  She brought me back in during our birthdays.  All in July, all 2 days apart, myself, my daughter, and BFF's.  We celebrated... .but I think she still had me painted black and it seemed there was nothing I could do to get out of it, as usual.

The second part, while she had me painted black she went to see her psychiatrist who for some unearthly reason told her she absolutely DOES NOT have BPD.  The only thing I can think is that he truly doesn't see it.  I'm guessing she didn't tell him how happy she was finding something that described her perfectly, and that learning DBT was helping her tremendously.  Since she hated me at the time I got a phone call after her appointment.  She told me that her psychiatrist told her she absolutely does not have BPD (I disagreed but not out loud), that I was a horrible person for trying to convince her she has it (not what happened, again didn't respond), and that because of our obviously unhealthy relationship she should cut me out of her life completely.  (Obviously, this makes me wonder how good this guy can be at his job since he is not actually getting the truth, but I can't blame him for not seeing behind the curtain when she doesn't show him.  I wish she would find a new mental health professional, but I know she is comfortable with this one, possibly because he sees what she wants him to.)  So she did cut me out, on a phone call right after her appointment.  I told her if that is what she felt she needed to do that is her choice.  As always I didn't actually LEAVE, I just wasn't around her and she was basically no contact for about three months.  It was difficult because it was so long, but still easier than previous times of no contact.  I've better learned to cope and having gained the BPD knowledge so I wasn't lamenting that I did something wrong because I finally understood that I didn't.

While I still 100% believe she has BPD, and honestly deep down I am pretty sure she knows but is in denial, I do not bring it up.  She still has her ups and downs, and with the most recent new boyfriend I thought she would push but no such luck.  However, she has learned to deal a bit better.  Instead of talking up front when something bothers her she has a bit of an upset over it.  It is frustrating and it'd be nice if one day she learns better communication skills, but for now, it is her way.  It's not ideal, but I love and accept her even when it is difficult.  So I'm a bit at arms length, while still knowing I probably know her better than she knows herself.  I last told her she has taught me not to call her so I don't anymore.  It's been about a month and she's called twice.  She is very busy which is partly the truth (even though I know she sometimes uses it as an excuse), but she is also recovering from an injury and is having financial difficulty.  So even if we aren't hanging out I'm a bit glad so that I don't have to get caught up in anything.  She called this morning and we had a nice short chat.  She wanted to tell me about her latest troubles, I have no problem listening and being there for her as I would any friend.  I find it a bit easier on the phone actually as she cannot overreact to my facials.  I know the guy she is with now is good and I am so thankful for him in her life.  It makes me happy to know she is in good hands.  I know she is a grown up and supposed to take care of herself, but honestly she needs him and I find myself glad she doesn't need me.

I just wanted to share that I did tell someone with BPD that I believe they may have it and I lived to tell the tale,  .  It did backfire a bit at one point, but I will never regret telling her even if it had gone much worse and she stopped speaking to me altogether.  I will always be glad I told her because maybe she does know it deep down, and maybe one day that will make it easier for her to accept.  Plus, she knows that if she ever does want to admit it to herself she can come to me to talk about it and I will already understand so won't need to be afraid to talk to me about it.  I know this is extremely rare, and the therapist I see about my BFF and BPD (oddly enough in the office next to BFF's psychiatrist) has said that it almost never happens that they react well and get something out of it but she did; even if for a short while.

[DearBFF]

Hanging & tryingtohelp

I have a question, well maybe a few for your both... . 

If when you were near the beginning of your relationship with significant other and someone told you they might have BPD, would you have believed them?

Would you have wanted someone to tell you?

Would it have made a difference?

tryingtohelp, I have often wondered about leading separate lives when in a relationship with someone who has BPD.  It seems like this may be one of the only good long-term solutions because it seems as soon as people start merging lives, things can go horribly wrong.  I think this is one reason that the current boyfriend is working out so well.  When she says she wants time to herself, he actually listens and will just go hang out with his friends.  They do not live together, but have discussed it.  This is what most young couples want, but I can only see it ending in disaster, especially if they move in together before he learns about the BPD.  Also, I have a feeling that moving in will be shortly followed by getting married, and soon after, having a child together.

I  BFF's boyfriend.  He is the kindest guy, he follows through on what he says, and I feel that he may love her unconditionally.  On one hand, he may be the guy who could stick beside her for the long haul because of his love for her and his laid back personality (he is hard to upset and rarely takes anything personally).  On the other hand, he values honesty above all else and we know this is a very difficult thing for a pwBPD.  I actually told BFF when I brought up BPD with her that in truth if I had not found out about this thing called BPD, and realized that it fit her completely I would not still be here.  I was being told awful things about her I did not want to believe, mostly because of my love for her.  I had to believe there was a reason she did the things she did that didn't start and end with, "She's just a bad person."  The truth is she isn't, none of them are, they just struggle with things we sometimes don't understand, and yes, they hurt us along the way.  It sucks, but I believe if they could easily push a button and change they would, but it takes a lot of work on their part.  Not to mention, they have to accept things that basically BPD forces them to hide so I see why that could possibly take a lifetime.

I wonder sometimes when I am with BFF's boyfriend and we are chatting as I watch him talk, is he like me?  Does he love her like I do, would he stay if he knew?  Will he leave when he sees the behaviors and doesn't know why they are happening?  I would never come out and tell him, but I have told him he can call me whenever if he is ever worried about something or needs me to explain something he doesn't understand.  I did this because I wish someone did it to me.  That I had someone to talk to when things happened with her, especially someone who loved her like I did, that could have explained why things might have happened that way.  I don't think I could/would ever come out and say "I think she has BPD" yet I know I could offer advice and ways of dealing with things that no one else could because I know about the possible BPD.  Responses I got from friends at the time she and I were just beginning the BPD rollercoaster were, "She sounds like a b*" and "Why are you still friends with her?"  It would have been so good to hear someone say instead, "Let me offer you an explanation of why they may have reacted like that, then you can see what you think and maybe talk to them about it."  So many times I would talk to BFF after something and once I understood where her reaction came from the conversation went so much more smoothly!  Instead of it feeling like it was "out of nowhere" I could actually connect the dots and didn't feel so confused.

I just wonder what it's like for you both... .and if it would have changed things for you?  Since if you knew you might have either left sooner, or would have been able to alter your behavior in order to help avoid at least some conflicts, not to mention it becomes easier not to take it to heart.  Of course, it still hurts, but it gets easier.  I know I want this woman in my life, yes even when she is a pain in the butt.  We have fun together, we laugh a lot, we also cry a lot which is something I would only do with my closest friends.  We get each other, and I don't have many people like that in my life, honestly out of my whole life.  So when I found out about the BPD I made a choice.  Could I love her in spite of this?  Could I love her, all of her, including this?  I decided I could, it's just taken me some time to get to a good place with it and I still struggle sometimes, but I know it's worth it to me because it's only gotten better.  For most of us once it gets bad, better can be a relative term.   

In a way, I feel like I am lucky that I found out about BPD and so I got to make a choice.  I know that most don't, whether it's because they are family members, or already spouses or share children, or just never know what is going on with the person they love.  Most people don't get to step back and decide if they can live with this, but I did get a choice so I feel thankful for that choice.

Thank you both! 

[livednlearned]

How do I now approach her after NC? What I'd like to happen is ... .I suggest she goes for some kind of anger management / therapy etc, or else I'm leaving her for good.

You've tried something along these lines (ie. telling her she has BPD) and it didn't work out so great. It's also hard for most people to work with ultimatums. "Either you learn to be her emotional caretaker, or else she's leaving you for good."    Most of the work is going to fall to you, friend.

The two main pillars of BPD relationships are validation (communication skills) and boundaries. These represent the part of the relationship you have control over.

So the question is less about what is she going to do, and more about what are you going to do.

If she loves me as much as she says she does, do you think she is likely to respect that decision?

My experience is that pwBPD respect boundaries, even if asserting them creates distress. The key is to learn communication skills that demonstrate you love her (validation) while making sure you protect yourself when she acts badly (boundaries).

[C.Stein]

Hello Chris  ,

I understand the frustration you are feeling.  Nothing you do is good enough.  You do one thing to appease her and she changes her mind or it isn't enough.  The push-pull behavior will tear you apart emotionally.  This is something you need to fortify yourself against as it is a hallmark of pretty much all relationships with borderlines. 

While I certainly understand NC when you have nothing to say, or don't really know what to say, I caution you against using it as a punishment.  IMO, it is time for you to gather your thoughts and talk to her if you want this relationship to continue.  You will also have to prepare yourself for some blow back as a result of your NC.  Once she feels she has you hooked again she may dysregulate as you probably triggered an abandonment fear with your NC.

I can't stress enough the importance of learning as much as you can about BPD and what being in a relationship with someone who suffers from it entails.  There is a lot of information on this site to help you with this.  Make sure you take off the love blinders and see what you are getting into without any excuses or unrealistic expectations. 

One unrealistic expectation I already see is the ultimatum.  If she is going to get help she needs to do it for herself not as a result of your ultimatum.  I understand you have to draw a line somewhere but I don't think this particular line is going to bring about the results you think they are.  This will be a difficult path to walk for you as you clearly need some commitment/stability from her. 

How do you think you can gently nudge her in the direction of getting a formal diagnosis and treatment on her own without the ultimatum?

[Thread]

Dearbff

Yes if in the beginning if someone told me his unusual outbursts were BPD and that they can mellow but would never change or perhaps even worsen I would have left. There were so many times I wanted to in the beginning when these characteristics were starting to surface, but like a person w anxiety issues I blamed myself and looked inward thinking I was causing the problems and that it was me, and how grateful I was that he kept by my side. Yes. I would have left. Especially if I had know the bouts of insecurity then putting me down directly after was going to be an ongoing story in my life I would have left and not had looked back.

[Grey Kitty]

  Hello and welcome, Chris_1982

The good thing for you is that you've found a place where people understand the kind of stuff you are dealing with and have experienced things that are very similar.

 It is really tough, and there is no getting around that. And it will be tough if you break up ... .or tough if you stay with her.

Ultimatums or demands that she change her behavior don't have good results... .as C.Stein and Livednlearned said quite well.

To make this kind of thing work, you have to accept that she is who she is... .and right now, if she gets angry, she doesn't manage it well. (OK, that is kinda understating it!  )

So that means YOU have to find ways of coping with her anger that are better. In this case, your choice to go NC with her for a week or so is a step in the right direction. When she is angry, she will say things that will hurt you and provoke you. Rather than letting it escalate, you need to be ready to leave BEFORE you get so angry you cannot do it cleanly.

So when you get back in contact with her, be ready to disengage, perhaps only for a few minutes. This is a skill you can work on--read this workshop on how to do it:

How to take a time out

Let us know what is happening and how it is working for you!

[Thread]

Grey kitty

That is a good read. Realizing a allow him to be verbally abusive and that I don't walk away enough, or like that last part said go to a room and he follows or says something I feel the need to respond to.

Chris1982

Point being made though it can be a daily or monthly struggle. If you are willing to get on board with that good for you!

For me it's very hard and I've been inbetween wanting to stay and wanting to leave due to the fact that it super increases my anxiety and depression. I was off all meds when we were separated. I know there are people who don't struggle with what i do genetically, who can handle it, but there are also a lot of people over time who end up becoming anxious and or depressed.

I feel like if you do follow the lessons of making your needs a priority you may be okay. I've done better since moving back to my home town with a lot of support from friends and family and of course working has been for me a somewhat paoitvie way I check out. But like I said before I feel the loss of the expectations that my husband would be someone I could emotionally connect with. As an artist that is a hard thing to swallow.

I think you just really should sit down do some research maybe even get a therapists who is familiar with BPD and really ask yourself what you are willing to sacrifice or let go of to keep this relationship.

[JQ]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the group, I'm glad you found us I'm sorry that you've had such a difficult time with your BPD. You have learned in such a short period of time how difficult and challenging BPD can be for you the NON. You have received some great guidance from Kitty, C.Stein, and others. I would read books like "I hate you, Don't Leave me", "The Human Magnet Syndrome" and "Stop Walking on Eggshells". I would encourage you to seek out a therapist who is very educated in BPD, Codependency & their relationships so that they can help you through your thoughts, emotions , anxiety, frustrations with dealing with BPD.  I would also encourage you to read the references at the top of the page and to the right of the page to help educate you all things BPD -------------------------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You said:

Here's also some key facts that might help you decide what I'm dealing with;

• Saw her mother getting abused (physically, not sexually) as a child.

• Has no contact with her Dad. (Told me she wants a father-type figure to make her feel "secure)  My exBPDgf has said as much when I was seeing her, again it's the 3 yr old toddler who want's to be a father figure.

• Has a three-year old daughter. The father is a violent man.

• She is one of a twin (the other died at birth)

• Previously abused Mephedrone for 8 months.

• Drinks Alcohol to the point of complete stupidity (only at weekends)    It is known that in a lot of BPD r/s the BPD abuses both drugs and OR alcohol. I came to learn it was a way for my exBPDgf to "deal with or manage" her EXTREME fear of ABANDONMENT or ENGULFMENT. And she basically did it on the weekends as well or days she knew she didn't have to go into work. To the point where she wouldn't remember events or things that happen the night before.

• Wants me to cut out ALL of my family and friends, and blackmails me if I suggest seeing any of them.  This is BPD behavior that a lot of us have experienced and I'm no different. They tend to cut you from the "heard" much like a cowboy cuts a cow to be branded from the heard. It's very common for a NON aka Codependent to be cut from family & friends. It's one of the things I tell a NON to do when they're recovering from a BPD r/s.  To reach out to an old friend who you haven't talked to in awhile and reconnect, catch up on life with them. It'll help in the recovery and healing you'll need to do.

• Never EVER apologises. It's always me that apologies, just to "keep the peace."  This is very common to in a BPD relationship. It's a way to avoid responsibility of a issue or an event much like that 3 yr old toddler. Ever ask a 3 yr old toddler who climb up on the counter and opened up the cookie jar? They're response is "NOT ME" or "I DON"T KNOW". 

BPD's have a VERY EXTREME fear of ABANDONMENT and ENGULFMENT real or not among other behavior issues. YOU can't force her to go to therapy and you can't force her to continue any type of meds as much as it "MIGHT" help, it's a futile effort. My exBPDgf although self aware, never liked to discuss her illness or the behavior behind it. No one wants to face the fact that they'll have a Mental Illness for the rest of their life. She had some success with mood stabilizers but stop taking them because it made her gain weight, another thing to add to their self esteem issues. This is common among some of those who suffer from BPD.


As I heard the other day from the "caregiver" or "NON", their life will NEVER be normal if they stay in the BPD r/s and TRY to care for them for the rest of their life. It will be forever changed and in fact a BPD acts much like a 3 yr old toddler and you'll have to be the adult in the relationship for the rest of your life as others have suggested.

You describe some of the basic behavior of BPD in your short post.   You seen her rage, or throw temper tantrums like a 3 yr old toddler and if you look at past events of his I imagine you can see similar behavior traits of a 3 yr old. YOU are were going to have to remain the adult in the relationship if you stay and not for a couple of months but for the rest of you life.  Just as a 3 yr old will test your limits in the grocery store before you enforce your boundaries of "don't touch" so it will be the same with your BPDw. She feels as if he needs to be in control of any situation and if you step up and try to wrestle "control" from her then you will see THAT rage of a toddler unleash at you.

AS others have suggested here you'll have to learn about putting in place AND maintaining boundaries if you intend to stay. THIS is going to be extremely challenging for you because they will constantly test you to see if you'll enforce those boundaries.  From my own experience with my therapist, reading & from this sight I learn to put in boundaries. I started with something small like, don't say things to verbally, emotionally abuse me, to try & hurt me. If you do, I will tell you I'm hanging up the phone and I will call you when I feel better or that I will leave your place & come back when I feel better.  That took some effort and multiple times but there was SOME limited success with it. Then I put in the boundary of "on't lie to me", again it had SOME limited success.  I went to a couple of therapy sessions with her at her request & I put in the next boundary of not cheating on me. This seem to be where things went badly on a EPIC scale. When she told me, "I can't promise you I won't cheat on you" she was being honest, she didn't lie to me which was a boundary.  Needless to say, the r/s was full of turmoil after that for a short while until I went NC. There are some things that a BPD just can't do and no matter what I say, her therapist says or anybody else for that matter, they're going to do what they want when they want just like a 3 yr old toddler.

NOTHING about BPD has or WILL makes logical sense to you or anyone of us for that matter.  It's why a good therapist is so important to you to guide you on your journey. You CAN'T change someone with BPD but you can learn about yourself which is the most important part.  Borderline Personality Disorder is one of the most contentious of all the personality disorders. Evidence of structural and functional deficit in brain areas central to regulation, attention and self-control, and executive function have been described in BPD. Whatever your intention is you'll need to learn a whole new language of BPD such as gas lighting, splitting, painted black, painted white, triangulation, engulfment, abandonment, invalidation, deregulation, projection, shaming, triggering and the list goes on.

Like most of those on this sight we've come to learn we are a codependent, we are the Knight in Amor protecting those who can't protect themselves. We are the perfectionist who work so very hard to make things right so that we can live a happy life because if everything is right with our BPD s/o then there will be no reason to rage and there will be no reason for Mr. Hyde to come out.  The good news is that once we're self aware of our behavior as a Codependent we can learn and adjust it & to take care of OURSELVES and OUR needs. You'll learn about the 51% rule & it's ok to give of yourself to someone else but you should keep 51% of your energy to making yourself happy. If your giving more the 51% of yourself in any relationship eventually you'll run out of energy you'll be tired, exhausted, you've given everything you have mind, body & soul & it's hard to recover from.   

HERE is some additional information on what BPD is defined as:

There are numerous studies, universities, professors, Ph.d's, MDs, therapist that have studied this question for decades. BPD is a VERY serious Cluster B mental illness with numerous studies to indicate that is in deed a genetic, physical defects within the brain coupled with environmental conditions that are responsible for BPD. BPD can also be co-diagnosed with other mental / behavioral illnesses such as NPD for example.  There are MD, Ph.d's that are trying to categorize BPD in the Cluster A mental illness category that includes paranoid personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder.

From Harvard Medical School which indicates an underlying abnormality of the brain structure or function resulting in a significant disability.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a severe mental illness seen in approximately 20% of inpatient and outpatient clinical samples and between 1.2% and 5.9% of the general population and can co-occur with other disorders.

BPD is believed to emerge from an interaction between genes and environment. The major twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in diagnostic concordance. This concordance rate is similar to that found in bipolar disorder and stronger than rates for depression or anxiety. Functional MRI studies of BPD patients show abnormalities in the amygdala (an almond-sized and shaped brain structure linked with a person's mental and emotional state) and the prefrontal cortex (a part of the brain associated with planning, reasoning, solving problems and regulating thoughts, feelings and behaviors). A major BPD twin study showed that genes accounted for 69% of the variance in BPD.

A core feature of BPD is self-destructive behavior, including bingeing and purging, substance abuse, risky sexual behavior, reckless driving and spending, and self-injury. In the short term, these behaviors attempt to regulate out-of-control emotions, but the interpersonal consequences further impair troubled relationships. You describe events like these King ... .

Recent data link BPD to both structural and physiological brain abnormalities. Volumetric studies using MRI consistently show decreased volumes in the hippocampus and amygdala of persons with BPD. Functional MRI studies using standardized tests have demonstrated differences in brain areas and functioning between people with BPD and controls. Using evoked emotional response, MRI differentiated BPD from controls with differences appearing in the amygdala, anterior cingulate and prefrontal cortex. This research suggests that both the affective instability and the interpersonal hypersensitivity seen in BPD have their roots in the sensitivity of the brain's amygdala to negative emotions.  In the face of this increased amygdalae activation, persons with BPD demonstrate impaired self-regulatory function in the prefrontal cortex.

The findings from psychopharmacologic and other biologic treatment data, coupled with associated brain functioning findings, indicate that BPD is a biologically based disorder.  Based on this analysis, including BPD in the Massachusetts Parity Law as a "biologically-based disorder" is well founded.


There are several types of treatments that have several levels of "success" ... .success measured as limited MANAGEMENT of behavior from a chronic mental illness.  This study among others would indicate there is no full recovery or "cure" to indicate that they get better.  Example, my exBPDgf (age north of 50) has seen Ph.d's, clinical physiologist & therapist off & on for more then 25 years. She continues to have severe behavioral conditions that include impulse control issues, risky sexual behavior, alcohol abuse, reckless spending, self-injury, personal relationship trouble with multiple boyfriends, 2 ex-husbands and other BPD behavior that we've all read about.  She's been on several different meds in addition to Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) focuses on the concept of mindfulness, or paying attention to the present emotion. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) can help people with BPD recognize and change both their beliefs and the ways they act that reflect inaccurate or negative opinions of themselves and others. Mentalization-based therapy (MBT) is a talk therapy that helps people identify and understand what others might be thinking and feeling.  Transference-focused therapy (TFP) is designed to help patients understand their emotions and interpersonal problems through the relationship between the patient and therapist in addition to mood stabilizers, anti-represents, anti-anxiety meds.

From the Mayo Clinic ... .

Cluster B personality disorders are characterized by dramatic, overly emotional or unpredictable thinking or behavior. They include antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. It's not necessary to exhibit all the signs and symptoms listed for a disorder to be diagnosed.

From John Hopkins Medical School

Those who have a Borderline Personality Disorder are not stable in their perceptions of themselves, and have difficulty keeping stable relationships. Moods may also be inconsistent, but never neutral. Their sense of reality is always seen in "black and white." People with borderline personality disorder often feel as though they lacked a certain level of nurturing while growing up. As a result, they constantly seek a higher level of caretaking from others as adults. This may be achieved through manipulation of others, leaving them often feeling empty, angry, and abandoned, which may lead to desperate and impulsive behavior.

This is just the beginning of learning about BPD I know it might seem like a lot at first but you need to know the facts so you can make sound choices based on those facts and not speculation or guessing what he's thinking or if I do this will he do that it's not how it works.

Come back here as often as you WANT too someone will always be here to give you some guidance and help YOU think through the things and choices YOU need to make.

JQ