New poster...long story.

[Policy pets]

First of all, I apologize if this is going to the wrong place. Since this is my first post, it directed me here after registration.

Second, thanks in advance for any advice or support!

My exgf has received diagnoses for BPD, mdd and gad. The symptoms of her condition drove our 4+ year relationship off a cliff beginning in early 2015. I myself grew frustrated with the constant violation of boundaries, the observation that she could never internalize guilt and grow, the constant insistence that I wasn't treating her right/supporting her despite my best efforts to encourage therapy, assure affection, and support friend and social networks outside our relationship. I am the first to admit that my frustration turned ugly at times, and I did not yet have some of the tools to recognize what I needed to do to stop the bleeding. (I have since been in therapy to deal with my own anxiety/depression and personality defaults that bubbled up due to this relationship). I have narcissistic traits, and allowed anxiety about not being able to control my ex from hurting us to continually reopen the wound.

So there were definitely two at the table, and I own my part and realized in July '15, when everything truly came apart, that I needed to make serious changes if I wanted to be happy with her. In July we went on a trip with some friends camping at a music festival. In a span of four days she: blacked out drunk, picked a fight with me, wandered off into the campground to go to the bathroom, and disappeared for over an hour before wandering back without half her clothes on (I was panicked, and scouring the campground... .we later put together that she passed out in a portapotty and took her pants/underwear off when we found her clothes in a toilet); next day right before a band we had been excited to see together went on she again went to the bathroom and disappeared. I missed the whole show as I panicked, worried that she had blacked out and was naked again, and knocked on countless portapotty doors... .dealing with angry people... .only to find out she had run into some other friends and decided she wanted to watch the show with them. I was angry and confronted her in a way that made her feel small... .but I myself felt small and disrespected and just wanted her to acknowledge how wrong her behavior had been. But she couldn't... .as she puts it now she dissociated from everything. I'll repeat that I contributed to this situation with my anger and inability to control my communication/emotions. Then on the last night I was emotionally and physically drained and didn't want to be up partying before a long drive, so I told her and my friends I was going to go to bed early and wished everyone goodnight. I woke up at 4am, about 6 hours later, and she was not yet in bed and the campsite was completely dead. Spshe had disappeared again! So I put some clothes on and investigated, woke some friends up who all told me she was pretty drunk and was still up when they went to sleep. No one knew where she was, so I went looking for her... .same routine with the porta Potts... .fortunately no one was in them this time... .and eventually found her with a group of strangers passing a bowl and drinking a beer. Imagine the awkward interaction as I try to gently hint that it's time to go to bed and make small talk with these guys, one of which is seriously creeping on her with his hand on her leg. She acts like it's not a big deal, and eventually comes with me after I ignore social courtesy and insist we need to talk.

I know this intro is long, and if no one reads it I will not be offended, it is just difficult to ask advice without being totally honest and thorough.

In the weeks following that drama she began to say she understood what my issue was, and we both said we were going to try to improve our flaws (my difficulty communicating without anger, and her destructive behavior). I asked that we make earnest attempts to control our drinking and stop using marijuana, and that she understand she needed to earn some trust back from me. However, she continued drinking too much... .caught her flirting via text a few times... .she kissed a stranger in front of me when we were at a bar... .smoked in the house after I had been clean for two weeks and had been explicit about no smoking in the house while I was home... .and in this environment I did not make the steps I needed to in order to quell the bleeding. It just seemed like I couldn't do anything to make her see how much she was hurting me and us, and I lost my temper many times.

So obviously we broke up. It wasn't really my choice or hers, just a fight due to me catching her flirting with our neighbor. After this she began leaving me notes in the morning (we lived together) asking if I still loved her and if I could give her another chance. I wasn't ready to make a decision about this  but since we still lived together I told her I would think about it. Within a week or two she was flirting with a new guy and went out on a date with him. The disconnect between her behavior and words was utterly heartbreaking, and I felt like I could never forgive her for everything.

Within several weeks she found a new place to live and moved out, but not before one more recycling... .this time initiated by me. In that timeframe she was engaging seriously in therapy, began apologizing for her mistakes and contributions, and i was so afraid to see her walk out that door. So I gave her another chance, and asked if she would stay so we could work on it.

She deliberated, and told me she would still be moving out because she sees how sick she is and needs to work on her independence. I respected this decision with high Regard, and resolved that I had to let her work this out on her own... .part of me felt like I was following the old set a bird free adage. If she worked out her demons and came back to me that would prove that we were right for each other.

We remained in contact and developed a friendly relationship... .I began dating casually... .and she did as well despite her desire for independence. In early December '15 the allure of rebound dates gave way to the giant hole I felt in myself where she inhabited. Our friendly relationship seemed pretty good, and many things she was saying to me led me to believe she was healthier. She had new friends, was taking on new responsibilities, and seemed happy (learned later this was mostly a show). I began to think that she needed to know I still thought a lot about how we could make it work. Over a few weeks we became intimate again rather quickly, and right before we were to spend the holidays apart out of town, we had a serious conversation about what we needed to do and agreed that we would work on it. I told her that it was very important to me personally, and to our progress for her to not be engaging with other men. She agreed to not do so until we had given us another earnest try.

Within days of that conversation she initiated the silent treatment on the night before her flight left. For almost a week she didn't engage me whatsoever. I was so confused and hurt and small, and I began putting more pressure on her in my messages asking for her to just level with me. If there was another guy, ok, just tell me so I know and can think about how to handle it.

Eventually she told me that she went out with someone, had feelings for them, thought my definition of fidelity for what we were was inappropriate given we were broken up, and that she didn't know who she wanted to pursue but said lets just take some time and if it's meant to be it will work out. No surprise I didn't take this well, and sent her a message explaining my disappointment, my interpretation of why it was so important to begin establishing trust, and my further explanation that I needed to do what was best for me and move on. I didn't want to be an option... .I am a goal and respected myself too much to play this game with her.

She didn't respond, bc it hurt her that I was putting what she saw as a condition on our relationship. I had to basically demand that she provide closure for me, which she eventually did in a message that came weeks later. In that timeframe, I really broke down... .lost self worth, became suicidal and sought therapy which has been immensely helpful.

Whoo... .so now that brings me to present happenings. My T recommended I begin letting go of my hurt and pain by formally forgiving her and acknowledging my contributions to our toxicity. I did this, but was not prepared for the flood that followed. Me opening the door with forgiveness led to a message asking to meet up because she missed me and wanted to know if there was ever a chance. We met casually so I could drop off some of her stuff, and went for a walk and all of a sudden my heart started with the same familiar feelings of desire... .such an addict. We began talking, and I learned she was still dating this guy. I was surprised that she would even think I would want to consider a future with her while she is monkey barring between two people, and told her that she had some thinking to do. I said I didn't know if there was a chance for us, but that I couldn't even mentally consider it until she was sure she at least didn't want the other guy. Two weeks went by and last night we talked on the phone, and she revealed that she is in fact still involved with this guy. Don't really understand how I could have been more clear.

Ready for the icing on the cake. The guy she developed feelings for was... .dun dun dun... .her new roommate! I suppose it happened innocently enough, but I found this out last night and was shocked. All her words about seeking independence (which she still professes) were misleading. I know she probably intended to seek independence out, but it is impossible for me to rectify those words with her behavior, and she was unable to explain why she followed that path except that it was a coping mechanism. No indication that she ever stopped to second guess the toxicity she was setting herself up for. The whole reason she gave me for moving out on her own was to establish herself, and she began sleeping with her roommate (!) not to mention she let her feelings for him cloud our earlier attempt to reconcile. I know I shouldn't take this personally... .it is a reflection of her capacities, Not mine, but it's hard.

So our conversation last night ended in a place where I was initially... .we have nothing to talk about until she is sure she doesn't want him... .but it is clear to me that she has feelings for this guy or at least can't muster the courage to hurt him since they are in such close proximity to each other. I worry that this stance on my part is not right... since she is likely to make this decision in part because of me, and I still have very low faith in her consistency of feelings and behavior (I've communicated this fact as well to her) I worry that I am setting one of us up for heartache... .but still I can't let go of my love and desire to work towards a future together.

She is talking like she gets everything now, and is very apologetic about how badly she has hurt me. I worry this is just lip service since I've been fooled before, but she does seem earnest, and for once I actually do sense some growth in our communication (thanks therapy!). I do care so much for her, and she has been very supportive of me throughout the years, especially in the first 3. She has a kind soul, and I know that she is trying hard for there to be less irrational influence on her behavior.

I would like overall advice and support about my situation. I am hoping to hear from people who have been through something similar and learn about what worked for you. I obviously am not resolved to work on this yet, but part of me wants to. The other part of me sees that this just might be a relationship that is unavailable to me (credit this forum for this idea)/she needs to truly accomplish her independence before she can engage in a relationship.

Sorry again for the length, and thank you so much for this avenue for getting my thoughts out and receiving support!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Hello and welcome!

This sounds really confusing and conflicted for you. Before I offer any advice, let me ask you a few more questions... .

It sounds like your ex(?)gf has real issues around flirting and/or cheating. You described this as a problem last summer, through, well, now.

You also said this was your girlfriend of 4+ years. Was she doing things like this from the beginning?

The other issue you mentioned was drinking and smoking. Things can get really out of hand at a festival, especially if that kind of thing is new to her... .or it could be an ongoing issue for her. Does she have more problem drinking history?

[Policy pets]

Great questions. Hard to be totally thorough in such a complicated history.

Prior to July, as far as I know, she was totally and completely faithful. I have no reason to think that I am mistaken about this. She does have a history of using men and engaging in risky sex as a coping mechanism that predates our relationship.

Marijuana and alcohol use also predate our relationship, but I identify with these problems as well. I have cut drinking out almost entirely, and although I am still struggling with marijuana I have succeeded at going long stretches not relying on it.

I didn't dive into this issue but the dynamic of drug/alcohol binges was a big problem for us. I always felt shame about my addiction and coping in this way, and would grow frustrated when she wouldn't help support efforts to abstain. She was happy to use it to cope and didn't appreciate me pressuring her to change that part of her lifestyle.

To answer your question about alcohol dependence history I would say that it is difficult for me to know for sure. Neither one of us have ever been dependent drinkers (drinking that would interfere with normal duties and responsibilities), but setting limits and over drinking during infrequent occasions is more of the problem, and as much as I am guilty of this, when she would over drink the potential for ugliness was much higher.

[Policy pets]

One thing perhaps not communicated above is that all of her communication with me lately has been oriented towards apology, forgiveness, and a desire to be with me. She keeps telling me how much she loves me, and it is really difficult for me to accept that she isn't respecting the boundary I set with my unwillingness to engage in those feelings until she isn't with someone else.

[Grey Kitty]

It is tough when people try to bust past your boundaries.

However, it isn't really her job to respect your boundaries. It is your job to defend and protect them from her, whether she is respectful of them or not.

She's chosen to be involved with somebody else. (Given the impulsive nature of BPD, I'd assume that the relationship isn't over if she's still roommates with this guy. If she moves out, it is more interesting to evaluate)

She's chosen to express how much she loves you while she's doing it.

She obviously is having real trouble being faithful to either you or this new guy right now.

You can't change that about her. She might be able to change it, given that she appears to have been faithful to you for a few years. But it is her choice, and you have to accept that you don't have much input or any control... .and her choice may not be a healthy one for either you or this new guy.


Let me ask... .what level of contact do you have with her now? How often? Social medial, texting, phone, seeing her in person?

[Policy pets]

That is great advice, and something I believe I have understood. One challenge for me is communicating my boundaries so she understand and respects them up front. Time and time again I am clear about things (e.g. Don't talk to me until you are sure about what you want, she says she understands and then proceeds to contact me while failing to confront this). Sometimes she even claims that she didn't understand or hear me right, even if I repeat myself and asks if she understands the boundary. All contact has been through text/email/fb message aside from the meeting and phone call i mentioned. Communication is sporadic, and was somewhat more frequent before i set the boundary. Id say once every 2-4 days we end up talking about something, not always serious. I suppose I haven't been clear with you all here (doesn't speak well to my ability to communicate clearly to her, but I assure you I was) that my boundary I set was that we can't talk about our future or share intimate feelings until she is sure about the other guy... .so I am not opposed to friendly or humorous communication. Did I set myself up for failure by not establishing a more discrete boundary?

The other major challenge for me is that I do not know how to handle it when my boundaries are violated. My patience for this has increased a great deal, and I have made significant progress in preventing anger from distorting my communication. I am strong, and I rarely ever let her get away with a violation of boundaries, but find that many times no matter how I communicate that she isn't respecting me it always seems to blow up in my face and almost never leads to altered behavior. I want to stand up for myself, but I don't know how to without making things worse in many occasions. I worry the only way to protect myself is to cut her off, which she is sure to interpret as abandonment and probably paint me black for the foreseeable future. This is something I am reluctant to do.

I suppose the last major issue with this is that I am struggling to rectify what her behavior communicates versus her words/messages. She says the feelings for this guy aren't real, that she made a mistake going down that path, that she wants to work on this with me, but her behavior communicates what you highlighted: that she has chosen to be involved with someone else, and has chosen to continue being with him regardless of what she communicates to me. I do appreciate that she can only make this choice, which is why I was initially hesitant about even setting the boundary how I did... .because I didn't want her to make the decision for me, rather for herself. I am not hurt so much that she hasn't realized the pain she's causing herself (and me, though I know this is my problem) and is still seeing this guy, but rather that she wont stop communicating things that pull on my heart strings. Is the solution as simple as "you need to look out for you, and if you can't take it its up to you to protect yourself" (i.e. put up or shut up?)

[Grey Kitty]

There are a couple ways to talk about boundaries. One way is that they are the point where you end and somebody else begins. People who are aware of them tend to respect them; other people who have problems tend to both roll over another person's boundaries and let another person roll over theirs.

The way we talk about them here is usually in the context of enforcing our boundaries, and with a pwBPD, enforcing a boundary works very well, while setting a rule you expect them to follow works really badly. Let me explain it in this context:

Rule: Do not do X

Boundary enforcement: If you do X, I will do Y to protect myself from the consequences of your doing X.

If you set a rule, she has a choice to follow the rule or break the rule. Your experience so far probably tells you which choice she will make.   

OTOH, if you enforce a boundary, you are the one who has the power to make your choice. You choose to enforce the boundary, whether she likes it or not.

Rule: Do not talk to me about re-starting our relationship if you are still in one with another guy.

Boundary enforcement: I will not discuss restarting my relationship with you until you are unencumbered by other relationships.

So if she says something about how much she loves you, it is time to end the conversation with her. Or at least change the subject. *Perhaps* you will remind her that you aren't ready to deal with these feelings while she's still living with another guy. (Although you've probably told her this a dozen times, so adding one more isn't likely to matter!)

These workshops will help you understand how to enforce boundaries better and in more depth:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[Policy pets]

Well that was eye-opening. Thanks gk!

I had not ever considered how I was communicating things in rule-oriented ways. Although I don't think I've been communicating strictly this way, I certainly have not been deliberate about avoiding rule-oriented language. You are correct in your observation that she interprets rules as pressure and will almost always run the other way.

So I am going to be practicing this skill/tool, and the guidance you linked is going to be really helpful in how that plays out. Thank you again!

I have reasonable faith that if I can better communicate my boundaries then she will be more capable of respecting them. The last thing I also need to focus on that you touch on is how to divert or ignore violations without alienating her (like you said, another reminder isn't likely to help... .but neither will ignoring her... .based on experience)

I am still open to hearing from anyone else who has some insight on this situation since any bit could be very helpful as grey kitty just showed!

[Grey Kitty]

The key on boundary enforcement is the action which protects you, not communication of the boundary.

You've probably stated that this is a problem/issue dozens of times already, and her behavior isn't changing. I know of a pwBPD (remarkably self-aware) who has said "I'm not stupid, I'm crazy." You probably think or hope that if you just state it right, she will "get" it and magically things will be better. Sorry to say it doesn't go that way.

Sometimes you need to state a boundary verbally. Sometimes you want to give a verbal warning before taking an action, giving her a chance to back down first. Other times, it isn't needed.

You can work out how to do this ahead of time... .If you want to work out how you would go about this, we're here to support you. I find that specific examples are more productive than focusing too much on general principles.

[Lollypop]

Hi there policy pets

Wow, that's quite a story and clearly there's a deep connection between the two of you. You don't say how old you both are but it appears to me that you're at different emotional maturity levels further complicated by BPD and drug use.  Respectfully said.

I always try to keep it simple:

I only have a responsibility for myself and my own happiness.

I try to Learn by my own mistakes.

Do not be drawn into others chaos, remember whose problem is whose.

Focus on myself and what i can do for me.

Sounds easy doesn't it? I know from experience that it's not.

I'm far happier and more fulfilled than I've ever been. In sorry I didn't take this approach years ago.

Loving somebody so deeply, with those "what ifs", "if only they... ." is downright painful.

[AntigoneJayne]

Hi

It is very clear to see that you

A--still have a great deal of love and care for this person.

B--have learned to a good extent how to honor your own self in the midst of the chaos of a relationship with this type of person.

and C--are intelligent and mature enough to reflect upon your own self and how you are/need to/hope to change and grow, as well.

You are the decider in this, from what it looks like.  She is still in her feelings over you, to some degree.  The authenticity of the things she says may be questionable, as you noted with her stating that she doesn't have real feelings for the guy, yet she still is involved with him. 

My advice--and I am very new to this BPD stuff so take it for what you will--is to honor YOURSELF.  If you are hung up on this girl, and you truly want to be with her again, it looks like it might be a while before she meets your expectations of being totally detached from anybody else romantically.  If you're willing to wait for her to come around, then you need to be true to your own wants and desires.  A word of caution--you just have to remind yourself that you're waiting for something over which you have no control of happening.  It could be tomorrow.  It could be next month.  It could be next year.  It could be never.   You are in control of YOU, so you can change your mind as well.  But I would say, as long as you are realistically aware of that, you should wait.  If a part of you decides its time to move on, please honor that, when the time is right. 

Having already been involved with her and experienced her BPD tendencies, you know to a large degree what you're waiting on.  It isn't easy.  Only you can decide if its worth it for you. 

Good luck and thank you for sharing. 

[livednlearned]

Hi Policy pets,

I wanted to join the welcome party  

Lots of good advice here.

Some thoughts:

That is great advice, and something I believe I have understood. One challenge for me is communicating my boundaries so she understand and respects them up front. Time and time again I am clear about things (e.g. Don't talk to me until you are sure about what you want, she says she understands and then proceeds to contact me while failing to confront this). Sometimes she even claims that she didn't understand or hear me right, even if I repeat myself and asks if she understands the boundary.

Maybe a good idea to chill on the heavy stuff for a while? What were you two like when you first met? At least while you learn about BPD and yourself, it might help things to go back to being your awesome self   That's attractive. You can enforce boundaries without having to talk about them.

Did I set myself up for failure by not establishing a more discrete boundary?

I think that's a really good boundary. You want her in your life, lightly. If she cannot decide between you and this other guy, then you don't want to have intimate conversations or heavy conversations about the relationships. Seems super clear, and you can enforce this boundary. If she brings it up, you switch the conversation.

The other major challenge for me is that I do not know how to handle it when my boundaries are violated. My patience for this has increased a great deal, and I have made significant progress in preventing anger from distorting my communication. I am strong, and I rarely ever let her get away with a violation of boundaries, but find that many times no matter how I communicate that she isn't respecting me it always seems to blow up in my face and almost never leads to altered behavior. I want to stand up for myself, but I don't know how to without making things worse in many occasions. I worry the only way to protect myself is to cut her off, which she is sure to interpret as abandonment and probably paint me black for the foreseeable future. This is something I am reluctant to do.

It's great that you have awareness about this. I don't know much about anger management techniques myself, and you may find your T is helpful is finding some good ones dialed specifically to the way your anger works. For me, I realize that anger is a secondary emotion masking a much deeper hurt. If you can unpack those primary feelings and shine some sunlight on them, you may find the anger isn't so intense. It sounds like she makes you feel inferior in some way? Not intentionally, I'm guessing. And maybe those feelings of inferiority go back a long, long way to childhood.

I suppose the last major issue with this is that I am struggling to rectify what her behavior communicates versus her words/messages. She says the feelings for this guy aren't real, that she made a mistake going down that path, that she wants to work on this with me, but her behavior communicates what you highlighted: that she has chosen to be involved with someone else, and has chosen to continue being with him regardless of what she communicates to me. I do appreciate that she can only make this choice, which is why I was initially hesitant about even setting the boundary how I did... .because I didn't want her to make the decision for me, rather for herself. I am not hurt so much that she hasn't realized the pain she's causing herself (and me, though I know this is my problem) and is still seeing this guy, but rather that she wont stop communicating things that pull on my heart strings. Is the solution as simple as "you need to look out for you, and if you can't take it its up to you to protect yourself" (i.e. put up or shut up?)

In the moment, she most likely believes what she's saying. She may be mirroring you in some ways because she feels whole in that moment with you, completely on the same page. And then when she's apart, that feeling isn't so intense anymore and she latches onto something else that feels firm. People with BPD tend to have an unstable sense of self, and have a lot of impulsivity, and some have issues with object constancy.

It does take a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured by someone with BPD. The road to becoming an emotional leader is not easy, and also worth it.

One thing you mentioned I thought was interesting --her awareness that she wants to be independent. This is actually a really interesting dilemma for someone with BPD. She probably did not go through the normal stages of individuation that healthy people go through. She wants it and probably has no idea how to achieve it, and most people are not going to guide her well here, is my guess. It takes someone with skill to help her understand what independence for herself actually is.

Dialectical behavior therapy is designed to help someone with that process. You may find the book High-Conflict Couple by Fruzetti to be helpful because it includes some DBT for romantic relationships. It's designed for two people who have high-conflict personalities, and it doesn't sound like that's what is going on here. Even so, there may be some techniques in there that can help with anger/communication.