I called 911 on my wife

[flourdust]

I ended a BPD conflict by calling the police.

Backstory: Married 12 years, one daughter, age, 10. Years of escalating conflict following the BPD playbook, culminating in separation 2 months ago. D10 lives with me 12 days out of every 14, but BPDw does after-school care (usually at my house) and some dinners. Exploring a final counseling intervention before filing for divorce.

Today, D10 was at home with BPDw. They called me as I was leaving work -- there was a conflict about D10 begging to go over to a friend's for an impromptu playdate. Both BPDw and I were opposed. The call ended and I got in my car to drive home. During the ride, I got multiple angry texts from D10 as well as calls from BPDw. She was agitated and wanted me to intervene and soothe D10. One thing I know about myself is that I am really NOT a safe driver if I have to split my attention with some kind of emotional crisis. So I said I couldn't do that call. BPDw got even more agitated me. I repeated myself, and hung up.

When I got home, they were calmer but D10 was still angry and making threats to leave with her mother, pack a suitcase, etc. BPDw then turned on me and began to lash out for my not taking her phone calls while driving in highway rush-hour traffic. I explained myself briefly, refused to JADE, tried to disengage, and then asked her to leave.

(Note: Our separation agreement says she leaves when I get home -- or even before -- to avoid conflict. This gets ignored when she's upset.)

She refused, repeatedly, and began to egg D10 on in encouraging her to pack a bag and prepare to leave with her. I finally told her that I would call 911 if she didn't go. She began to argue that she had every right to be there, she owned half the house, we weren't legally separated, our daughter didn't feel safe with me, etc.

So I did it. I called.

The police came. They talked to all of us. And then they told my wife to leave. And they said I did the right thing by calling.

I'm not happy that this happened -- but I'm proud of myself for being willing to stand up and enforce my boundaries and the agreement.

[HurtinNW]

That must have been terribly hard. I imagine your stress hormones are through the roof. Can you do anything tonight to self-care, help your body and heart and mind calm down?

And good work. That took courage.   

[flourdust]

That must have been terribly hard. I imagine your stress hormones are through the roof. Can you do anything tonight to self-care, help your body and heart and mind calm down?

And good work. That took courage.   

One word: pizza. 

Thank you for the kind words.

[Turkish]

It's good that you have that legal agreement in place. It worked.

How was your daughter after all of this?

[flourdust]

It's good that you have that legal agreement in place. It worked.

How was your daughter after all of this?

It's not technically a legal agreement -- but the police did ask about the separation and if we had anything written down. When I told him about the document, he seemed satisfied that I was on solid footing.

My daughter was shaken by this, I think. I talked to her about the police, and I said that they didn't come because of anything she had done, and I hadn't called them because I was angry. I called them because we were trying to stop fighting, and the police were able to help stop the fighting.

We had dinner and watched a little TV, and she was in a reasonably positive mood. Somewhat withdrawn, and when I later had to take her iPod away from her at bedtime, she got angry and told me she wished the police had taken me away.

She tends to internalize the details from these various fights and conflicts, which is why I favored this separation in the first place -- to minimize her exposure.

[HopefulDad]

:slowclap:

[flourdust]

     

I just discovered a voicemail on my phone. She left it after I hung up on her in the car while driving home. It's horrifying.

Remember, she called me while I was driving home (at the time, I was in rush hour traffic dealing with cars merging in and out all around me). She said something like "Our daughter is in hysterics [because of being denied the playdate she wanted], and I need you to help her calm down." I said "I'm driving, I can't do this right now." She then started to get angry and said "You're leaving me in a very tough position, I need you to... ." and I cut her off around that point, repeated "I'm sorry, I can't have this phone call now," and hung up.

Here's the voicemail. I can't even summarize this. I'm just going to transcribe it. It gets really scary in the second paragraph. This is all in an edge-of-rage icy, angry voice:

-----

Choosing instead to send me to your answering machine so it will be recorded and you can play it for some lawyer during a divorce meeting I suppose might make you feel better but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder for us to parent your child. D10 is in hysterics and has been crying and miserable and upset and I'm trying to help her. I was trying to gather some information so I can do that in the best way possible because I haven't seen her like this in a very long time and she's telling me things that don't seem to be making sense so I was trying to make sense of them. And I was trying to determine what the best course of action would be.

So perhaps I should just hand her something with which she can harm you when you return - do you think that would be a better option? Should I take her and drop her at the nearest friend's house and let you figure out where she is? I really can't figure out what to do because I'm being left alone to figure this out and you don't have any interest in co-parenting with me.

Perhaps that's something, oh wait, I know, we'll discuss it when we're next in therapy because you don't talk to me, even about the things we have to talk about. And, yes, she is here listening to all the things I'm saying, and I'm sure you're really happy about that too. I wish she could hear the things you say to me right before you hang up the phone. Good bye.

-----

Well, she was right about one thing. This is something I will definitely save for my lawyer.

[HurtinNW]

Your poor daughter. I am so sorry. Is she in therapy or getting support? My kids get free counseling at their schools, if money is an issue. Sorry I don't know this already. My kids came to me with trauma and loss histories so I am big on therapy for kids.

Hand her something to harm you with... .how awful. For you and daughter.

Take care of yourself.   

[Turkish]

Ooof, that's harsh. So many things wrong there, not the least of which is saying those things in front of your daughter.

She knew you were on your way home. You may think like I do: when I have the kids, I'm a single parent and I'll figure out how to deal with the issues. That message is Waif, Queen, and maybe even Witch all rolled into one.

[hope2727]

   

I just discovered a voicemail on my phone. She left it after I hung up on her in the car while driving home. It's horrifying.

Remember, she called me while I was driving home (at the time, I was in rush hour traffic dealing with cars merging in and out all around me). She said something like "Our daughter is in hysterics [because of being denied the playdate she wanted], and I need you to help her calm down." I said "I'm driving, I can't do this right now." She then started to get angry and said "You're leaving me in a very tough position, I need you to... ." and I cut her off around that point, repeated "I'm sorry, I can't have this phone call now," and hung up.

Here's the voicemail. I can't even summarize this. I'm just going to transcribe it. It gets really scary in the second paragraph. This is all in an edge-of-rage icy, angry voice:

-----

Choosing instead to send me to your answering machine so it will be recorded and you can play it for some lawyer during a divorce meeting I suppose might make you feel better but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder for us to parent your child. D10 is in hysterics and has been crying and miserable and upset and I'm trying to help her. I was trying to gather some information so I can do that in the best way possible because I haven't seen her like this in a very long time and she's telling me things that don't seem to be making sense so I was trying to make sense of them. And I was trying to determine what the best course of action would be.

So perhaps I should just hand her something with which she can harm you when you return - do you think that would be a better option? Should I take her and drop her at the nearest friend's house and let you figure out where she is? I really can't figure out what to do because I'm being left alone to figure this out and you don't have any interest in co-parenting with me.

Perhaps that's something, oh wait, I know, we'll discuss it when we're next in therapy because you don't talk to me, even about the things we have to talk about. And, yes, she is here listening to all the things I'm saying, and I'm sure you're really happy about that too. I wish she could hear the things you say to me right before you hang up the phone. Good bye.

-----

Well, she was right about one thing. This is something I will definitely save for my lawyer.

Please please please get some kind of app that records this voice mail permanently. This is exactly the evidence you need to get through this. You may never need to use it but having a collection of evidence makes you and your daughter safer.

[formflier]

Flourdust,


Is that your first 911 call? 

First one was tough.  It was before I knew about the rules and this site.  Luckily I stood my ground.  She got the message.

They do get the message.

So in our first joint interview with the current psychologist that I am seeing.  We both saw her to start.  The P asked my wife if we agreed on spanking.  Wife says no, but that she doesn't spank anymore. 

P asked why and wife said "Because he will turn me in, "

They will alter their behavior, if not their thinking.

FF

[flourdust]

Hey, guys, thank you for the comments.

HurtinNW -- my daughter is seeing a therapist who is versed in these issues. In fact, we even had a family session with this therapist where we discussed fears of divorce, what it means when her mother threatens to leave or commit suicide, and a safety plan. I insisted on this session, and I think it helped her understand that she could talk about these things.

Turkish -- You're exactly right. I was on my way home. I was 15 minutes away. And yet, she went off like that.

Hope2727 -- very good suggestion. I can export the voicemail to my computer and Dropbox. I'll do that.

Formflier -- That was the first 911 call I've had to make. The police were called on us once before right after Thanksgiving. I wrote about that here. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286389.msg12701291#msg12701291

-----

I received an email from BPDw Friday.

The information I tried upwards of twenty times to share with you yesterday was regarding my interactions with our daughter and her references to suicidal ideation and her intentions to use suicidal threats in her texts to you. That's what was so important that I kept calling.

What if I was calling to ask where you kept bandages to treat her after a fall or self injurious action? How could I have reached you?

I bring this to your attention because I tried multiple ways to have a conversation with you yesterday and you found multiple ways to shut me down, including calling the police and implying that I was a danger to you and your daughter. 

That makes me legitimately concerned for your ability to make sound choices. Your choices to separate yourself from me at all costs have made me seriously concerned for your ability to make safe choices.

I remain disappointed with the progress of our separation. You have not demonstrated any change or willingness to work with me. Instead you are predicting what you assume will be my actions, tone, and behavior and telling me that either I am behaving as such (eg: "having a temper tantrum" when my voice isn't raised though you don't agree with me) or that you know what I will do ("I'm not going to talk to you, because you always turn these into fights".

I don't know where we go from here. If your behavior continues to make it so that we cannot communicate about even the most serious D10 issues, then we will need to find an alternative solution ASAP.

-----

I haven't responded to this. I don't know if I will. What can I say? There's so much that's wrong in this email.

1) She never verbalized anything to do with suicide. She berated me for taking D10's phone away as punishment for sending me nasty texts (which also did not mention anything about self-harm). I was not happy with her fighting with me about this punishment in front of D10, but I backed down. Then she switched to berating me for not taking her phone calls on the highway. Then she taunted me about my requests that she stop fighting with me and leave the house.

2) The "bandages" thing is ludicrous. If there was an accident or injury in the house, I can't perform first aid from my car. She can find towels and other supplies all over the house, and she can call 911 if necessary. It's not like we have an emergency surgical center in the house that I'm hiding from her.

3) The "multiple ways to communicate with me" were, again, her berating me continuously for several minutes.

4) Lots of projection onto me. No recognition that her behavior was severe enough that the police removed her from the house.

5) I agree with the last part of her last sentence. We need an alternative solution, and it's divorce.

I have no idea how to respond to this or even if I should. Give her a point by point rebuttal so I have a written record? Validate that she must have been overwhelmed and frightened by D10's meltdown, without validating her own poor choices in reacting to it? Brief factual response that I see things differently and we will meet in counseling? Ignore it?

We are having a counseling session on Tuesday -- it's discernment counseling, a two hour session to determine if the path forward is divorce or something else. It will take a lot to convince me it's not divorce at this point. I'm thinking I'll retain my attorney and start the paperwork going this week.

[Verbena]

I probably wouldn't respond to her e-mail at all.  Nothing you could say to explain your view of the situation will change her mind.  She has a different reality. 

I would, though, show this e-mail to your attorney as well as play her voicemail for him. 

I really admire you for doing all you can to protect your daughter. Surely, you will get a judge with enough common sense to see that you need full custody. Your wife can still do a lot of damage to your daughter when she has her, but minimizing that as much as possible is obviously your goal.

I wish the best for you. 

[Panda39]

I would not respond to her email it seems to be dysregulation and some gaslighting on her part.  Keep the email along with the voicemail they contradict each other.

Panda39

[gotbushels]

[... .]

Here's the voicemail. I can't even summarize this. I'm just going to transcribe it. It gets really scary in the second paragraph. This is all in an edge-of-rage icy, angry voice:

-----

Choosing instead to send me to your answering machine so it will be recorded and you can play it for some lawyer during a divorce meeting I suppose might make you feel better but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder for us to parent your child. D10 is in hysterics and has been crying and miserable and upset and I'm trying to help her. I was trying to gather some information so I can do that in the best way possible because I haven't seen her like this in a very long time and she's telling me things that don't seem to be making sense so I was trying to make sense of them. And I was trying to determine what the best course of action would be.

So perhaps I should just hand her something with which she can harm you when you return - do you think that would be a better option? Should I take her and drop her at the nearest friend's house and let you figure out where she is? I really can't figure out what to do because I'm being left alone to figure this out and you don't have any interest in co-parenting with me.

Perhaps that's something, oh wait, I know, we'll discuss it when we're next in therapy because you don't talk to me, even about the things we have to talk about. And, yes, she is here listening to all the things I'm saying, and I'm sure you're really happy about that too. I wish she could hear the things you say to me right before you hang up the phone. Good bye.

-----

[... .]

I'm so impressed by everyones' decorum.

Her behaviour disgusted me and is downright bestial.

Padding evidence:

"trying to gather some information"

"so I can do that in the best way possible"

"I haven't seen her like this in a very long time"

"she's telling me things that don't seem to be making sense"

"so I was trying to make sense of them"

"I was trying to determine what the best course of action would be"

Then proceeding to assume this would be helpful to her as evidence:

"So perhaps I should just hand her something with which she can harm you when you return"

Animalistic behaviour. Moderators, if this is against the guidelines (it doesn't appear so), please correct me and feel free to edit. I thought the BP's behaviour was terrible and this should be made known. Respectfully to the parents on the boards, she is promoting violent behaviour with her daughter, toward her father no less, to seem "normal" when it is completely and jarringly wrong.

flourdust I hope you're okay, your daughter is okay and you both have more peace.

[flourdust]

I'm doing OK, thanks. I had the weekend alone, which was quiet and soothing. D10 was with the wife, and fortunately there were no attempts to rope me into drama. D10 had a sleepover at a friend's house over the weekend, so that probably helped.

[formflier]

I'm doing OK, thanks. I had the weekend alone, which was quiet and soothing. D10 was with the wife, and fortunately there were no attempts to rope me into drama. D10 had a sleepover at a friend's house over the weekend, so that probably helped.

Are you doing anything special for self care?

FF

[ForeverDad]

My first call to 911 resulted in the implosion of our marriage, not that it wasn't already hurtling towards disaster.  Withing a week we were apart and in the courts.

That your D wished you were the one carted off is something my Ex wished on me.  (She was the one carted away but it just made her more mad at me.)  Is your daughter in counseling?  That tantrum reflects her own wishes to do what she wants but wishing you were taken away is just scary.

This may have reinforced a boundary for your separated spouse, she apparently isn't as high conflict as my Ex was/is.  Or it may hasten the End as it did with me.  Just be aware that she may feel impelled to make you look worse than her by looking for a way or situation to make allegations.  Be aware.  Beware.

[Fian]

I like this line - "That makes me legitimately concerned for your ability to make sound choices."

If she doesn't trust your ability to make sound choices, then why is she calling you in the first place?  The bottom line is that she was in a difficult situation, didn't know how to handle it, and was upset that you weren't available to give her instructions on what to do.

[Sunfl0wer]

Her behaviour disgusted me and is downright bestial.

I have to say, I had the same thoughts when I read what transpired, yet I am not sure how to express the thoughts.

Mom having ideas of bodily harm of dad via kid, in front of kid, is just abhorrent to say the very least.

Having watched a situation of alienation of my SD and have SD then herself turn to having her own homicidal ideaizations towards us, it disgusts me because this is exactly how it began.  (Actually SD mom was more subtle in her ways) Mom over time, implanted ideas as "resolutions" to the conflict in SD mind in this way.  

As mom listened to her lawyer, "without evidence of... ." SD was on a witch hunt to look for evidence of things that did not exist, when she turned up empty handed, she decided to create evidence of herself not thriving by intentionally sabbotagging her life.

I wonder what your lawyer has advised?

Would this be a situation to call authorities as mom was putting child in emotional danger? (By discussing annidea of harming another)  Or we actually need physical danger to act urgently?

[flourdust]

My daughter does see a therapist regularly. She has her own issues with anger and lashing out, but they're fairly well controlled right now. She and my wife can often get into what seems like a feedback loop, where they egg each other on toward an explosion. I'm much better at being non-reactive and dampening down my daughter's emotions when they start to build.

I don't know what was happening in the house while I wasn't there. Maybe my daughter was making suicidal threats. Maybe she was threatening to harm me. (She does sometimes use this kind of language when she's very angry ... .and she's heard enough suicidal language from her mom to be able to copy it.)

But, I wasn't there, and my wife didn't communicate anything to me at the time, despite her claims in the email.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not happy that this happened -- but I'm proud of myself for being willing to stand up and enforce my boundaries and the agreement.

Hang in there--you are doing well in some really tough situations here. I don't really have much to suggest or different advice to offer in general, especially since your wife has further escalated things since this started.

This is an excellent boundary. Stick to it.

One thing I know about myself is that I am really NOT a safe driver if I have to split my attention with some kind of emotional crisis.

Dunno about you, but as for me, I'm also bad at handling emotionally charged conversations well if I have to divide my attention and put some into driving. So something is going to lose!

Ignoring the phone was a good safe choice. There is one other good safe choice:

Pull over and talk on the phone.

Keep that in mind should it happen again, and decide whether you prefer to work on resolving conflicts now and drive later ... .or drive now and resolve conflicts later.

I'm not second guessing your choice--I think you made the better choice. Keep the option open for another time when circumstances are different.

[flourdust]

Ignoring the phone was a good safe choice. There is one other good safe choice:

Pull over and talk on the phone.

Keep that in mind should it happen again, and decide whether you prefer to work on resolving conflicts now and drive later ... .or drive now and resolve conflicts later.

I'm not second guessing your choice--I think you made the better choice. Keep the option open for another time when circumstances are different.

Agreed. Something to keep in mind. In this particular incident, I was in rush hour traffic at a point where two interstates merge -- there really was no place where one could pull over until I got to the next exit, which was about 10 minutes down the road.

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, something tells me that you not being available to be triangulated in the drama is likely a good thing. 

Mom needs to realize that she is in charge and responsible and cannot rely on anyone to 'rescue' her. It is simply not reasonable to expect another person to be 'on call' available at the drop of a hat. If the situation is urgent, then 911 is who she can choose to call or some other resource such as therapist or crisis team.  Maybe a plan needs to be in place?

My experience with persons with PD is that allowing them access to me while they are in a state of current 'crisis' often feeds into their dysregulation rather then deescalating it.  It often is just a way to shift responsibility and blame.  Often it is not a real attempt for gathering input and collaborated problem solving.

It is hard to tell if your D was actually in crisis, or mom was, or maybe a combo of them feeding off one another.  I wonder how this usually plays out with you three and how that 'functions.'  Maybe something needs to change or is changing?



(Sorry I did not read your story and realize I am ignorant to the exact dynamics here... .but thought another possibility still could be useful)

[Fian]

Even if your daughter was suicidal, your wife can not expect you to be available immediately.  Like others have said, she is an adult and she is presumed competent enough to take care of a child in your absence, including dealing with suicide threats.  If she does not feel that she can handle such situations, then she should never be left alone with your daughter.

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, I don't think your wife's after-the-fact statements of what your daughter was doing is reliable enough to take much action on. (Besides validating your wife's feelings)

And I'm also going to say that triangulating between your wife and your daughter is a mess worth avoiding one way or another!

You seem to be handling it all pretty darn well.

How is it going today? What next?

[flourdust]

Agreed, agreed, agreed! I try NOT to get drawn into the drama during her parenting time.

We had our discernment counseling session today. Here's the relevant thread.

She was pretty hostile from the moment I saw her. She was sitting in the waiting room. I asked if we were checked in, and she gave me a snarky response.

She tried to put on her cheerful gregarious facade when the therapist showed up, but she wasn't very good at maintaining it. She lashed out at me a lot during the initial session, when we discussed where we had been and where we were going. At one point, the therapist tried to get us to recall what it was like when we first got married and what we liked about each other. I got a bit teary at that point. That seems like someone else's life that I am mourning now. My wife said she was "leaning in" to the relationship until I called 911 and had the police remove her from the house, and now she was finished.

We then had individual meetings. The therapist picked up on the BPD right away and talked with me about what  the relationship was like. She used the word "abusive" and noted that it seemed my wife was very comfortable in the therapeutic setting but wasn't able to use those skills with me. We talked about my own motivations and fears and what I wanted to have happen. Then she had a private session with my wife. Then we got back together and debriefed.

The end result is that we both think divorce is probable or inevitable (although my wife demonstrated a lot of the non-linear thinking that makes it difficult for her to follow a cause-effect discussion). We've agreed to take a little time to think about what we want to do. And the therapist recommended a book called "The Good Divorce" to help us find a way to separate while still maintaining strong structure for our daughter.

[ForeverDad]

Backstory: Married 12 years, one daughter, age, 10. Years of escalating conflict following the BPD playbook, culminating in separation 2 months ago. D10 lives with me 12 days out of every 14, but BPDw does after-school care (usually at my house) and some dinners. Exploring a final counseling intervention before filing for divorce.

Be aware that somewhere in the process you may (will) be tempted to reconcile and try yet again.  (That's our Knight in Shining Armor trait.)  Beware.  Guard against such impulses.  Barring major lasting improvements, past history is an accurate predictor of the future.  You don't want to try again and cycle right back to where you are now — or in a worse position parent-wise.

Right now, you are the majority time parent.  If you get back on the roller coaster, who knows what the status will be when you get off again.  Again, if she isn't in meaningful therapy and making solid substantive progress in life and thinking long term, the past will come back to bite you.

If/when you do proceed to divorce, it would probably be best that your stbEx doesn't frequent your home.  It would be harder to maintain firm boundaries that your home is your home and her home is elsewhere.  Hint, that may help improve your daughter's behaviors too.  Ponder how to do that and still let her do some parenting after school if it doesn't cause more problems than its worth.  Of course, a lot depends upon how conflictual she is.  If you have majority time and she's okay with it then it may not be as critical.  But still do ponder how to set a clearer divide (or boundary) between your parenting and hers.  (As you can guess, my ex was very conflictual... .think of the cartoon Tasmanian Devil.  I can count on maybe 3 or maybe 4 fingers how often she's been in my home in the past 10 years.  I've never been in her homes.)

[Grey Kitty]

I think FD's wife is nearly worst case. But she isn't alone in being that bad.

Others do better given time to heal and get used to having good boundaries expressed. I can think of one who about a year after legal separation was being a very good co-parent, although his partner still had to be ready for dysregulations, manage them well, but even the pwBPD was managing them much better.

That said... .getting the divorce/legal separation (whatever your jurisdiction does) going forward now while you have majority custody sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

[ForeverDad]

I think FD's wife is nearly worst case. But she isn't alone in being that bad.

I personally think the Ex that manages to alienate the children from the reasonably normal parent is even worse.  Sanemom's DH's Ex comes to mind.  First she alienated their older daughter.  Once D aged out of the system, she set her sights on the younger boys.  Mind you, they were raised by DH majority time but once D aged out and was 'lost' then the boys (by that time pre-teens or young teens) faced the full brunt of her disinformation and emotional manipulation.

My ex was so entitled and controlling.  I had to keep going back to court (about 8 years in all, from minority time to equal time to legal custody to majority time) until Ex finally lost her sense of Control.  The past couple years have been a picnic by comparison but we have only minimal contact and even that is triggering to her.  My son who used to be silent on the issues now occasionally says she hates me and sometimes says she's crazy.  Fortunately she wasn't able to manipulate his sense of reality by very much, a real risk for our children.

Others do better given time to heal and get used to having good boundaries expressed. I can think of one who about a year after legal separation was being a very good co-parent, although his partner still had to be ready for dysregulations, manage them well, but even the pwBPD was managing them much better.

We all are different by a greater or lesser extent.  Same for the disordered person in our lives.  That's why one script won't work for everyone.  We need to understand the issues, be familiar with skill sets such as are found here and have a comprehensive strategy for the benefit of everyone, especially the kids.  You taking charge is a good thing, she may not see it that way but it is.

That said... .getting the divorce/legal separation (whatever your jurisdiction does) going forward now while you have majority custody sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

Delay or inaction is not a good strategy, not when the current status is favorable.  You already know that the entire relationship was dysfunctional.  It would be misguided to go back to the way things were thinking the outcome would be any different.  So the only way forward is... .forward.