Do they miss us after it's over?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Do they miss us after they discard/we choose to leave? I'm convinced that despite the issues of the Non, the BPD is in much more pain then we are.

[sweet tooth]

Do they miss us after they discard/we choose to leave? I'm convinced that despite the issues of the Non, the BPD is in much more pain then we are.

[troisette]

I'd love to know a definitive answer to that! But I don't think there is one... .

[WoundedBibi]

I think my ex did. I think that is one of the reasons he wanted to hurt me. The pain of missing me or missing who he thought I was or could have been or what/who I represented hurt too much.

[steelwork]

I think (as is true generally) it depends a lot on whether they have another r/s to distract them.

[londons]

Yes, I believe that the distraction of a replacement (that sounds so negative, but i guess it is the truth) will help them to avoid thinking about us.  But I would also like to think that no one can "replace" the good times/talks/connections we experienced together.  I bet when they are alone and the night gets quiet, we come to mind, and they wonder how we are, and if we are doing what THEY are doing.  I dont care how much time goes by, i know my ex's jealousy level, and i doubt another girl will fully relieve him of that jealousy.  in fact, if he had it his way, hed probably like to see the both of us, depending on his needs at the time!  in the meantime, i am sad, jealous and missing him 24/7.  and the problem is, i have values and still respect the ding dong enough to wait until we are divorced, not just separated,  for my next relationship to begin.  but when i look in the mirror, and i lay my head on the pillow at night, i like myself.  i doubt , no i KNOW, he is unable to do that.  as much as i hurt, i feel for individuals with BPD.  they have to pretend to be someone for as long as they can, but once the "symptoms" start, or something is triggered, the downward spiral will begin.  when my husband and i first dated, we would be in public, and he would ask me, "do u need to be validated?  is that why u check out other men?"      WHAT?  i am not even going to get into how irrational, incorrect and stupid those questions are , but remember, to the BPD, their thoughts are facts, so nothing i could say or no amount of affection, could prove that fact wrong in his mind.   it was so frustrating, as he couldnt be further from the truth.   why did i not see that (which happened all the time) as a red flag?  because i thought with time, he will SEE and FEEL my love and admiration for him.     never happened.   his accusations continued and even got worse, until the end, 9 years later.  again, as non BPD , we can look forward , hopefully, to some sense of normalcy in the future. they cannot.  their pain continues in each relationship.  do you know how child abusers need to be listed and have a license plate proving so?  i honestly think BPD should have the same, so replacements can make a choice ahead of time and maybe research the disorder before falling in love with these charmers.  i am the third in line behind 2 others who have  been in relationships with this man. something tells me they are thinking, i should have told her... .    of course everyone deserves joy in life, but this is a disorder that hides itself until its too late... .   take care, lr

[5tarla]

It probably just depends on your relationship with them. My ex did validate me when we spoke and said she missed me so much that it hurts, but even when she loves someone she can only see the worst aspects. So, yes. It's possible your ex may miss you, but that doesn't change anything.

[balletomane]

I think my ex feels hurt that I'm no longer around, but I doubt he misses me. I say this because I saw how he was with his other exes, most of whom he had no contact with, and a former friend whom at one time he spoke of as his best friend. When he talked about them, it was to disparage them, and sometimes to ask in wonderment how he could ever have been attracted to such people. (Usually he explained it away by saying they'd manipulated him.) These mentions were rare. When he was angry at me, he would compare me to his exes and say I was abusing him just like they did, how he was vulnerable and we 'singled him out' for abuse. He couldn't seem to remember loving them or being close to them emotionally, and from the way he talked he didn't have any sense of himself as an equal partner in the relationship/friendship - he was just a pawn and a victim. While he was very hurt by the volatile endings of his relationships, I don't think he ever connected the pain to someone's absence from his life. He saw the problem as their behaviour to him, and so he didn't miss them. This is why I doubt he misses me. I will just be another abusive ex, one in a long line of faceless people who caused him pain.

I know he has tried to reach out to certain exes in the past. That didn't end well. Not long before he discarded me, he said, "I think I should really contact N [the girlfriend before me] to find out what the hell happened there." I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from telling him what had happened there: he had got paranoid about N and had accused her of cheating on him with no proof whatsoever, only the most ludicrous speculation and fantasy you have ever heard, and he'd lashed out at her and accused her of giving him 'emotional third-degree burns' and cut off all contact. All because she had been to a party that an ex of his had also attended. They'd never even met before, but he was convinced that their presence in the same room must have led to her cheating on him with this ex. In his mind, two years later, the relationship had imploded for no reason and he wanted to get in touch with N to try and understand why. He didn't speak about her as though he missed her, but as if he were genuinely puzzled and had some curiosity to satisfy.

He had two exes whom he didn't perceive as abusers (although he did say one had 'betrayed' him by writing that she was having relationship problems on her blog) and he spoke about these two with detachment bordering on indifference. In their case he felt that the relationships had run their natural course and there was nothing more to be said. I have never heard him speak of an ex with regret, not once. When he discarded me, he told me regarding our relationship, "I used to have no regrets, but now I have hundreds." I don't believe that. I used to want to believe I was somehow different from the others and he does miss me, or at least regret our breakup, but logic tells me that's unlikely.

[SoMadSoSad]

I think it depends on how effective their coping mechanisms are and if they have a replacement to replace memories

[once removed]

the sad reality is that a person with BPD struggles with a sense of object permanence, and cannot fully recall you in a psychological sense, cannot maintain a consistent image of you, and there are a great number of gaps or even rewritten history when it comes to the past and present.

we are almost certainly not simply forgotten, and may be thought of, but i dont think this translates to "missing" as we experience it or understand it.

[SoMadSoSad]

the sad reality is that a person with BPD struggles with a sense of object permanence, and cannot fully recall you in a psychological sense, cannot maintain a consistent image of you, and there are a great number of gaps or even rewritten history when it comes to the past and present.

we are almost certainly not simply forgotten, and may be thought of, but i dont think this translates to "missing" as we experience it or understand it.

Quick question, would they miss you if you are really physically attractive? They might be able to remember what your personality is but I'm sure they can remember what you look like especially if they have pics of you still.

[Lexisdad]

I worked with my ex BPDgf. In her previous relationship a coworker told me she would borrow his car or go with him in his car to drive by her at the time boyfreinds house to see if he was cheating. She told me he cheated on her and "Forced her to have an abortion". The relationship prior to that my coworker worked with her also at a different Police Department. He told me that she was involved in two physical fights with that boyfriend who was a police officer, she was a civillian. Of course he cheated. Her son's father and her relationship was also violent with them splitting 6 month's after the son's birth.

Just prior to our relationship ending, i was attending a wake and that set her off in a jeoulous rage.I would say most of our fights were over dyllusional jeoulosy.According to her i was "banging" everything that moves. Never once cheated with her. I would tell her your a beutiful sexy woman, i'm 49 your 36 and i'm head over heals in love with you. It didn't matter in her mind i was. I would like to beleive she misses me after 6 years but i really don't know. She's 36 and has never had a stable relationship yet in her life. Every one that i know of has ended badly. There is no doubt in my mind that she was the abuser in each of her relationships. Her sons father looked like a scared puppy any time he had to be in her presence.

[once removed]

Quick question, would they miss you if you are really physically attractive? They might be able to remember what your personality is but I'm sure they can remember what you look like especially if they have pics of you still.

i dont think physical attractiveness plays much role, if any.

lack of object permanence runs deeper than simply remembering or forgetting. BPD is a serious mental illness that has its roots in the earliest stages of development. it is ingrained in the way a person with BPD views and relates to the world, others, and themselves.

is the question really about wondering if your ex still secretly has the hots for you?

[sweet tooth]

the sad reality is that a person with BPD struggles with a sense of object permanence, and cannot fully recall you in a psychological sense, cannot maintain a consistent image of you, and there are a great number of gaps or even rewritten history when it comes to the past and present.

we are almost certainly not simply forgotten, and may be thought of, but i dont think this translates to "missing" as we experience it or understand it.

Quick question, would they miss you if you are really physically attractive? They might be able to remember what your personality is but I'm sure they can remember what you look like especially if they have pics of you still.

I gave my ex a photo album of us right before the discard. She loved it. I don't wonder so much about my appearance, but simply if she looks through the photos. If she remembers all the good times we had. It also makes me wonder if she'll look at it and plan a recycle... .

[sweet tooth]

She also has a drawing I made of her hanging in her room, a hoodie I gave her, and a book of mine. It makes me wonder if she looks at them and thinks of me.

[Confused108]

Imo with mine anyway I don't think so. They have no problems replacing us given the chance. So I dont really feel they miss us after they discard us.

[Jazzy]

I dont think they miss us if we have been replaced. As long as there is someone else in their life... .anyone... .they dont remember us.That has been my experience.

[SoMadSoSad]

I dont think they miss us if we have been replaced. As long as there is someone else in their life... .anyone... .they dont remember us.That has been my experience.

I second this. The high of the infatuation stage probably only makes them think about the replacement

[Caley]

I tend to believe that their world is upside down to what we experience. We tend to go into an immediate state of grieving, work through that grief and then emerge afterward. If they have a replacement (and much of the time, they do) this is enough of a distraction (because they are enjoying the adoration and attention of the 'new supply' to keep them from facing feelings of regret and remorse. Eventually, however, something goes wrong in the 'new' encounter and they then compare. If they compare you favourably in comparison to the 'new source' they'll make attempts to recycle you for the high that the recycle provides and the boost to their weak ego of being able to get you back. I wouldn't say that they 'heart-breakingly' MISS YOU ... only that they miss how you made them feel.

Once, after the recycle, things begin to disturb you to the point where you begin to question things again, they're off sourcing another potential source of unconditional adoration, admiration and attention as a place to run to should you have the strength to leave them.

Often, though, because they 'know' their own patterns and are aware of their own needs, they'll leave you first. Leaving you first does a number of things for them. Leaving you without closure leaves you wondering about your own self-worth. You'll want closure and feel desperately in need to contact them. You begin to chase and they are in a position to reject you (they feel in control and powerful whilst you feel even more rejected and dejected). It sets up the possibility for a return should the 'new supply' faulter in any way.

And, it goes around and around and around and around ... until you finally decide to get off the 'merry go round'.

Eventually, after many years of push and pull, affairs, double standards, hypocrisy, and emotional dishonesty (with other people), if they look back and consider you to be the one that was the least critical about their behaviour ... that's when they MISS you. Because you were the one that got away. The one person who was really there for them ... the one that they lost. 'Watch Out' ... they ALWAYS come back ... but only to repeat the same pattern.

If you are prone to (attract) and derive some excitement from these types of people and relationships ... get yourself a hobby you can immerse yourself in. Because they will cheat, they will lie and they will adopt any coping mechanism to avoid responsibility and accountability. You must either accept this ... or be very specific about what you want from a relationship and have super strong boundaries. If you choose the latter you'll stop attracting these types and attract healthier people who have strong personal boundaries too.

Best wishes to everyone trying to work out their own role in these types of debacle. You can never be completely broken by these experiences. You will recover, but only if you take the first step towards liberating yourself from an abusive attachment.

Kind regards,

Caley.

[Reforming]

Hi all,

I agree with Onceremoved. I think physical attractiveness is not a priority for someone with BPD. I don't think they are immune to it, but I'd say there are other attributes that they find more compelling. And they might view attractive or good looking partners as high risk because they're more likely to get attention and possibly abandon them. I'm talking about the BPD's perspective - not ours.

To return to the original question; Do they miss us?

Sometimes, when they've been abandoned or their new relationship isn't going well. But not in sustained way that most of us understand or experience.

I don't think they grieve or process in a healthy way and when a memory or a person triggers them they suppress it by locking it away or demonising / devaluing the person in question.

I remember  asking my ex midway through our relationship - we were together almost 16 years - whether she had been in love with here exes.

She said "I don't know". 

I don't think she was lying - I think she genuinely didn't know. I found it really hard to process this at the time.

From what I understood both had been significant relationships - one lasted at least three years. She used to say that for her out of sight was out of mind.

Sweettooth I understand the desire to believe that they miss us, that we meant something to them. I think we all can. It's one of the toughest parts of getting over these relationships. It's really hard to accept that their disorder means they're wired differently.

It goes back to the notion of radical acceptance - the disorder is real. Someone suffering from BPD might seem normal and act normal for periods of time but it has a profound impact on how they feel and process emotions.

Reforming

[Confused108]

I tend to believe that their world is upside down to what we experience. We tend to go into an immediate state of grieving, work through that grief and then emerge afterward. If they have a replacement (and much of the time, they do) this is enough of a distraction (because they are enjoying the adoration and attention of the 'new supply' to keep them from facing feelings of regret and remorse. Eventually, however, something goes wrong in the 'new' encounter and they then compare. If they compare you favourably in comparison to the 'new source' they'll make attempts to recycle you for the high that the recycle provides and the boost to their weak ego of being able to get you back. I wouldn't say that they 'heart-breakingly' MISS YOU ... only that they miss how you made them feel.

Once, after the recycle, things begin to disturb you to the point where you begin to question things again, they're off sourcing another potential source of unconditional adoration, admiration and attention as a place to run to should you have the strength to leave them.

Often, though, because they 'know' their own patterns and are aware of their own needs, they'll leave you first. Leaving you first does a number of things for them. Leaving you without closure leaves you wondering about your own self-worth. You'll want closure and feel desperately in need to contact them. You begin to chase and they are in a position to reject you (they feel in control and powerful whilst you feel even more rejected and dejected). It sets up the possibility for a return should the 'new supply' faulter in any way.

And, it goes around and around and around and around ... until you finally decide to get off the 'merry go round'.

Eventually, after many years of push and pull, affairs, double standards, hypocrisy, and emotional dishonesty (with other people), if they look back and consider you to be the one that was the least critical about their behaviour ... that's when they MISS you. Because you were the one that got away. The one person who was really there for them ... the one that they lost. 'Watch Out' ... they ALWAYS come back ... but only to repeat the same pattern.

If you are prone to (attract) and derive some excitement from these types of people and relationships ... get yourself a hobby you can immerse yourself in. Because they will cheat, they will lie and they will adopt any coping mechanism to avoid responsibility and accountability. You must either accept this ... or be very specific about what you want from a relationship and have super strong boundaries. If you choose the latter you'll stop attracting these types and attract healthier people who have strong personal boundaries too.

Best wishes to everyone trying to work out their own role in these types of debacle. You can never be completely broken by these experiences. You will recover, but only if you take the first step towards liberating yourself from an abusive attachment.

Kind regards,

Caley.

Well said Caley! Every bit of it! This is Exactley how most if not all these relationships play out. If it's not weeks , days, months, or years eventually they all discard . The only thing I don't 100% agree on is them coming back. I think that depends on the BPD person. Some do come back and some don't. Mine yes she found me on FB 26 years later. Friends on it for 2 1/2 years trying to be sneaky and rope me back in. Then last year I was an IDIOT! Didn't listen to my gut about her and well here I am. Discarded Sept 2015. Now do I believe my ex will be back and try and recycle me? Nope I don't ever see her doing that. I do know she has recycled some of her exs. Lol now that I know what type of mental illness she really has it all kinda makes sense now. She will recycle with certain people but I will not be one of them. And even if she did try and come back my foot is ready to kick her right in her a$$ ! Where is belongs!

[Caley]

The only thing I don't 100% agree on is them coming back. I think that depends on the BPD person. Some do come back and some don't. Mine yes she found me on FB 26 years later. Friends on it for 2 1/2 years trying to be sneaky and rope me back in.

I can understand you saying that ... perhaps I should reframe it.

It does depend on the final discard. Their greatest fears are loss of control and exposure (they're heavily invested in impression management and how others perceive them). So, if you have concrete evidence to support any claims you have, should you be asked by someone close to them. They tend to leave you alone ... but, I'm afraid, not forever. At some point, whether it is in the short to medium or even long term ... they'll ALWAYS make an ATTEMPT to have you invite them back.

Yours came back ... it took 26 years ... but she came back ... didn't she?

Actually, a lot of the 'discards' hope for reconciliation (recycle) in the recent aftermath ... and, as long as they have shown willing to forgive and forget the abuse and poor behaviour (and not mention it), there'll be the inevitable recycle. The honeymoon, golden period will be reinstated (but not for long before the return to devaluation). And, this is where the 'discarded' gets some short lived relief. BUT ... in reality ... it should scare the cr?p out of you. Because, shortly following the wonderful experience of being re-united ... they'll drop you from a greater height than they did before.

At some point ... when full recovery has had a chance to unravel all your twisted and misfiring neuronal pathways, back to what they once where, it all becomes quite comical. Difficult to comprehend in the early stages, though. But give it time and it will.

Caley.

[JerryRG]

I believe they assume our decency and humanity will motivate us into accepting our role in the dysfunctional roles and we become trapped in our own good values of fairness and forgiveness. Did I ever hear my exBPDgf say sorry? Nope!

We honestly feel remorse and seek solutions and the pwBPD... .

Once I figure out how they think I will be sharing my posts from within the safe confines of a locked mental ward because then I will be a pwBPD and I will keep society safe, from me!

[Caley]

I believe they assume our decency and humanity will motivate us into accepting our role in the dysfunctional roles and we become trapped in our own good values of fairness and forgiveness. Did I ever hear my exBPDgf say sorry? Nope!

We honestly feel remorse and seek solutions and the pwBPD... .

Once I figure out how they think I will be sharing my posts from within the safe confines of a locked mental ward because then I will be a pwBPD and I will keep society safe, from me!

It is natural and permissable to feel a little sorry for yourself Jerry. You didn't know what you were getting into or how it would turn out. If you did ... you would have stayed well clear.

You might be suffering from emotional overload but you're not a pwBPD but that will pass. They don't mix with their type usually.

Actually, you sound stronger than in your previous posts.

Caley.

[JerryRG]

Thank you Caley

I do get well if I stay away from my ex, just thinking about her gives me a stomach ache. Beside not having the closer and sharing custody of a child I did love her and because I can love, love became my curse just as her BPD was hers.

She always relied on my compassion and my need for resolution through peace. I want to walk away but my son will need me and his mother will still be a pwBPD next year and the next and on and on.

Have a great day Caley and thanks for seeing through me.

[Caley]

Thank you Caley

I do get well if I stay away from my ex, just thinking about her gives me a stomach ache. Beside not having the closer and sharing custody of a child I did love her and because I can love, love became my curse just as her BPD was hers.

She always relied on my compassion and my need for resolution through peace. I want to walk away but my son will need me and his mother will still be a pwBPD next year and the next and on and on.

Have a great day Caley and thanks for seeing through me.

I believe that you showed compassion to her and wanted to resolve things quickly because that is what you would look for in a partner in times of upset. In time you will realise that she was a mirror and the person you fell in love with was really you. Time to love yourself again and set boundaries concerning what you will and will not accept going forward.

Cheers Jerry.

Caley.

[bus boy]

Hi once removed, I think you nailed it

[JerryRG]

Thank you Caley

If we can love and give so much of ourselves to pwBPD, we can begin to love ourselves as much. I am learning to love myself and it was in the early stages of receiving this gift I asked her to leave.

Thank you for reminding me I actually was loving me when I thought I was loving her. This gives me great hope for my future.

I do apologize to the op for taking away from your subject.

[Confused108]

The only thing I don't 100% agree on is them coming back. I think that depends on the BPD person. Some do come back and some don't. Mine yes she found me on FB 26 years later. Friends on it for 2 1/2 years trying to be sneaky and rope me back in.

I can understand you saying that ... perhaps I should reframe it.

It does depend on the final discard. Their greatest fears are loss of control and exposure (they're heavily invested in impression management and how others perceive them). So, if you have concrete evidence to support any claims you have, should you be asked by someone close to them. They tend to leave you alone ... but, I'm afraid, not forever. At some point, whether it is in the short to medium or even long term ... they'll ALWAYS make an ATTEMPT to have you invite them back.

Yours came back ... it took 26 years ... but she came back ... didn't she?

Actually, a lot of the 'discards' hope for reconciliation (recycle) in the recent aftermath ... and, as long as they have shown willing to forgive and forget the abuse and poor behaviour (and not mention it), there'll be the inevitable recycle. The honeymoon, golden period will be reinstated (but not for long before the return to devaluation). And, this is where the 'discarded' gets some short lived relief. BUT ... in reality ... it should scare the cr?p out of you. Because, shortly following the wonderful experience of being re-united ... they'll drop you from a greater height than they did before.

At some point ... when full recovery has had a chance to unravel all your twisted and misfiring neuronal pathways, back to what they once where, it all becomes quite comical. Difficult to comprehend in the early stages, though. But give it time and it will.

Caley.

I agree Caley. I do agree that my ex did come back after all those years! Lucky me . I had no idea about BPD and that's why I let her back in. Belive me and we all know if  we would have known what our exs were we would have run! But I do t think she will attempt to recycle me again. That's what I'm trying to say." For some reason I was really the only one she totally treated like $hit! I am a trigger for her bc it was my mom who broke us up and my ex went nuts afterward and became what she is today. A Monster with BPD. I really have no worries of her ever trying to come back into my life. And after what I've seen with her ... .Even tho she was the love of my life I don't ever want to hear or see her again.  

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

Do they miss us after they discard/we choose to leave? I'm convinced that despite the issues of the Non, the BPD is in much more pain then we are.

I have read that they do BUT once they get in a new relationship they forget about the old one.  The turmoil starts with the new relationship and the cycle goes on and on and on... .

[JerryRG]

My exBPDgf talked about her ex husband all the time but it was about how mean he was to her, she did say one time she thought he was adorable. She burned him to the ground and his response was to divorce her and burn everything she owned.

Sad situation but like you said Notsurewhattothinkofthis

The cycle continues because she fails to see her issues and blames her misery on everyone else.

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

My exBPDgf talked about her ex husband all the time but it was about how mean he was to her, she did say one time she thought he was adorable. She burned him to the ground and his response was to divorce her and burn everything she owned.

Sad situation but like you said Notsurewhattothinkofthis

The cycle continues because she fails to see her issues and blames her misery on everyone else.

That exactly what it is JerryRG. They don't take responsibility for their behavior they blame everyone else for the messed up relationship. They won't blame themselves because that is Death to them.

[Suspicious1]

Like anyone, they have the capacity to miss people, of course. They're human. Whether they miss us individually or not depends on how they felt about us within the relationship, I suppose. My ex always said to me that he could miss people terribly, but had the ability to detach. He said it wasn't easy, that it hurt a lot to do it, that it was difficult, but that he could just cut off emotions towards people. I remember his amazement that his ex wife of 20 years "still" wasn't over the relationship after just a month of separation. I found that incredible.

I think he probably did miss me, for a short while, yes. But I suspect it was a very, very short while. With or without a replacement (and I can't blame him if he got involved with someone else to make himself feel less alone. I've done that enough times) - perhaps he had a few dates to take his mind of it, maybe he just cut me off like I never existed. The times we'd split before he said to me "I want to make you a part of my past as soon as possible". I think that's just how he dealt with emotional pain.

I know he missed me a bit because for a couple of months he tried to engage with me on social media and through friends. Then he stopped. I'd guess he hasn't missed me since then.

Frankly I now wonder who the dysfunctional one is: him, for being over it within a couple of months, or me for still missing him two years later.

[HurtinNW]

I am sure my ex misses the idea of me, the image he created at times, the narcissistic supply I gave him, and without acknowledging it, someone to punish.

I don't think he misses "me" because he never really knew me.

A big  that I ignored was he never spoke of missing anyone. He had several relationships and talked about them without regret or any feeling at all, except to explain how disappointed he had been when *they* showed their true colors. The only time he came close to sounding like he ever missed anyone was his dead mother, and even that had a ring of insincerity about it, like he was saying lines he couldn't quite feel deep inside.

[JerryRG]

I feel sorry for them, must be an empty painful existence

[troisette]

My ex had three major broken relationships: ex wife, ex long term relationship and a son who has no contact with him.

He told me that he found the best way to deal with it was to cauterise his feelings. But that didn't stop him frequently talking about them. One with fondness, two with anger.

So I'm not sure how successful he is at cauterising his emotions or whether it's a way of trying to fool himself.

[Suspicious1]

My ex had three major broken relationships: ex wife, ex long term relationship and a son who has no contact with him.

He told me that he found the best way to deal with it was to cauterise his feelings. But that didn't stop him frequently talking about them. One with fondness, two with anger.

So I'm not sure how successful he is at cauterising his emotions or whether it's a way of trying to fool himself.

Cauterise is a good word for it - it does describe the kind of thing my ex was talking about.

My ex never had a good word to say about his previous partners, and could move on from them very quickly. He said he also "cauterised" when his dad died 25 years previously, but I do wonder how well that worked out as he never really processed his grief - he confided in me that he sometimes saw his dad sitting at the end of the bed and he'd talk to him. I said "like, you imagine he's there and the things he might say to you, you mean?". He hesitated, then said "sure, if you want to put it like that... .". It was clear he really felt he was talking to his actual dad.

[steelwork]

Will we miss them in eight, ten, twenty years? What does it mean to miss an old lover?

Makes me think of Gary Snyder's beautiful Four Poems for Robin. The first one (Siwashing... .) gives me exquisite pain. I read it over and over when he dumped me. And then the other three complicate the pain.

Siwashing It Out Once in Suislaw Forest



I slept under     rhododendron

All night    blossoms fell

Shivering on    a sheet of cardboard

Feet stuck   in my pack

Hands deep    in my pockets

Barely  able    to   sleep.

I remembered    when we were in school

Sleeping together   in a big warm bed

We were     the youngest lovers

When we broke up     we were still nineteen

Now our   friends are married

You teach  school back east

I dont mind     living this way

Green hills   the long blue beach

But sometimes     sleeping in the open

I think back    when I had you.


A Spring Night in Shokoku-ji

Eight years ago this May

We walked under cherry blossoms

At night in an orchard in Oregon.

All that I wanted then

Is forgotten now, but you.

Here in the night

In a garden of the old capital

I feel the trembling ghost of Yugao

I remember your cool body

Naked under a summer cotton dress.


An Autumn Morning in Shokoku-ji

Last night watching the Pleiades,

Breath smoking in the moonlight,

Bitter memory like vomit

Choked my throat.

I unrolled a sleeping bag

On mats on the porch

Under thick autumn stars.

In dream you appeared

(Three times in nine years)

Wild, cold, and accusing.

I woke shamed and angry:

The pointless wars of the heart.

Almost dawn. Venus and Jupiter.

The first time I have

Ever seen them close.


December at Yase

You said, that October,

In the tall dry grass by the orchard

When you chose to be free,

“Again someday, maybe ten years.”

After college I saw you

One time. You were strange.

And I was obsessed with a plan.

Now ten years and more have

Gone by: I’ve always known

         where you were--

I might have gone to you

Hoping to win your love back.

You still are single.

I didn’t.

I thought I must make it alone. I

Have done that.

Only in dream, like this dawn,

Does the grave, awed intensity

Of our young love

Return to my mind, to my flesh.

We had what the others

All crave and seek for;

We left it behind at nineteen.

I feel ancient, as though I had

Lived many lives.

And may never now know

If I am a fool

Or have done what my

        karma demands.

[Thegardiner]

In time you will realise that she was a mirror and the person you fell in love with was really you.

Caley.[/quote]
Caley could you explain further please.