Distinguishing Between Being Positive and Rationalizing

[vortex of confusion]

I started a thread about why I settled for so little. In the process of participating in that thread and thinking about things, I brought up the fact that I can find the positive in just about anything.

In this message from eeks: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=293293.msg12760549#msg12760549

There's positivity, and there's rationalizing as a survival strategy.

I am not even sure where to begin. I would really like to think about and discuss this difference between being positive and rationalizing as a survival strategy.

Where does being positive end and rationalizing begin? Does it matter? If so, why? These are all questions that have been running through my head.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey vortex, Oh, I think it matters a lot.  I spent a lot of time in my marriage rationalizing my BPDxW's abusive behavior.  On some gut level, I knew that I was just pretending that things were OK, when actually things were terrible in our marriage.  I don't regard this as positive thinking because I was living a lie.  Real positive thinking, to me, involves focusing on truth -- the good in a situation, whereas rationalizing is a form of fakery. So that's the distinction I would draw.

LuckyJim

[vortex of confusion]

Hey vortex, Oh, I think it matters a lot.  I spent a lot of time in my marriage rationalizing my BPDxW's abusive behavior.  On some gut level, I knew that I was just pretending that things were OK, when actually things were terrible in our marriage.  I don't regard this as positive thinking because I was living a lie.  Real positive thinking, to me, involves focusing on truth -- the good in a situation, whereas rationalizing is a form of fakery. So that's the distinction I would draw.

Thanks for that distinction.

I think most situations have some good in them. It is my nature to find that good. The process of finding the good keeps me blind to the bad and makes it difficult for me to set healthy boundaries. I guess my thinking is that if I can find a way to focus on the good in a healthy way without it crossing the line into rationalization it would be easier for me to set and keep boundaries with stbx. Right now, I feel like a pendulum that has swung the other way. I spent so many years focusing on the good and not even letting myself think about or acknowledge the bad that I am now focusing on the negative. I know that it wasn't all negative. I know that there was some of both in all of my relationships (FOO and stbx). I don't like feeling so off kilter so I am trying to figure out what is rationalization, what is good, and what is outright friggin' horrible.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think most situations have some good in them. It is my nature to find that good. The process of finding the good keeps me blind to the bad and makes it difficult for me to set healthy boundaries. I guess my thinking is that if I can find a way to focus on the good in a healthy way without it crossing the line into rationalization it would be easier for me to set and keep boundaries with stbx. Right now, I feel like a pendulum that has swung the other way. I spent so many years focusing on the good and not even letting myself think about or acknowledge the bad that I am now focusing on the negative. I know that it wasn't all negative. I know that there was some of both in all of my relationships (FOO and stbx). I don't like feeling so off kilter so I am trying to figure out what is rationalization, what is good, and what is outright friggin' horrible.

I like how you express this, it makes sense.

My therapist once told me that I have an amazing ability to talk myself into something or out of something.  I got the suspicion that this may not exactly be a compliment, idk for sure.

Anyway... .

I wonder if there is something about focus to exclusion of other things vs allowing all possibilities of reality to exist together?  I am not saying this as clear as I hoped, but maybe it would have sense to someone.

[vortex of confusion]

My therapist once told me that I have an amazing ability to talk myself into something or out of something.  I got the suspicion that this may not exactly be a compliment, idk for sure.

It sounded like a statement of fact. Talking yourself into or out of something is a clear case of rationalizing. At least I think it is.

Anyway... .

I wonder if there is something about focus to exclusion of other things vs allowing all possibilities of reality to exist together?  I am not saying this as clear as I hoped, but maybe it would have sense to someone.

Hmmm. . .I have a half formed thought but am not sure how to articulate it. The fact that all possibilities exist together is the exact thing that keeps me from seeing how bad some stuff is. There is duality in all things good/bad, light/dark, yin/yang, etc.

Which bad things do I accept and which bad things do I reject? Life isn't a fairy tail that is full of sunshine and roses. I have a difficult time rejecting things that are bad because I tend to see the bigger picture. I guess what I am trying to say is that I accept that there is bad. I try not to focus on it. If you put something under a microscope, the only thing that you will see is what you put under there. Not only will you only see what is under the microscope, it will be magnified. I guess that is focusing on one thing to the exclusion of others. Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it is acknowledging that all possibilities exist while deliberately magnifying the good stuff in hopes that it will expand. I don't know. I feel like I am grasping now.

[doubleAries]

VoC--here is a link to the Wikipedia entry for rationalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology) it's pretty explanatory. And don't worry--we've all done it.

The point isn't to condemn ourselves--it's to grow. Stepping outside what we've always done, metamorphosing into something new.

[vortex of confusion]

VoC--here is a link to the Wikipedia entry for rationalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology) it's pretty explanatory. And don't worry--we've all done it.

The point isn't to condemn ourselves--it's to grow. Stepping outside what we've always done, metamorphosing into something new.

My head hurts now. I am trying to figure out how to explain what I am thinking. I scrolled down to the bottom of that article and found a link to intellectualization. I am completely guilty of intellectualizing things. That is my defense mechanism of choice. I would much rather think than feel. I think me asking the difference between being positive and rationalizing stems from my desire to use reason and logic to make sense out of things rather than simply allow myself to say, "Hey, this feels good." or "Hey, this sucks and feels horrible." I try to find objective measures for things that are purely subjective. I know that there is no right or wrong answer to this.

I am questioning 18 years worth of memories and am asking myself, "Was the relationship ever as good as I tricked myself into thinking it was?"

[doubleAries]

well, there probably ARE good memories. But minimizing the crappy ones, trying to turn them into at least neutral ones, well... .that's what we do sometimes. When our emotions don't matter (like we were taught). When we are too thinking about it, we get confused by the fact that there are positive and negative aspects to situations as well as emotions. We think contradictions can't be correct, so we have to pick one "side" or the other... .and who wouldn't want to pick "positive"? But splitting things into "positive and negative" (black and white) is splitting the self. I mean some things clearly ARE positive or negative. Getting beat up is pretty negative for example.

Just let it sink in. You've learned something new about yourself. That's a good thing.

[gotbushels]

Hey vortex, Oh, I think it matters a lot.  I spent a lot of time in my marriage rationalizing my BPDxW's abusive behavior.  On some gut level, I knew that I was just pretending that things were OK, when actually things were terrible in our marriage.  I don't regard this as positive thinking because I was living a lie.  Real positive thinking, to me, involves focusing on truth -- the good in a situation, whereas rationalizing is a form of fakery. So that's the distinction I would draw.

LuckyJim

So good. Thank you!

I think this subject is a good one. Thanks VoC

[Sunfl0wer]

I am questioning 18 years worth of memories and am asking myself, "Was the relationship ever as good as I tricked myself into thinking it was?"

Humm, this seems interesting.

Are you maybe trying to change your past understanding of reality as a way to cope?

Are you trying to deny the reality you always knew?

Idk, just pondering here.  I find it interesting though because in a sense, our past reality was our reality because we only understand and know what we do at a time.  With the understanding of a wiser self, I suppose we can repaint our past again and again as we evolve.

[Lucky Jim]

I would much rather think than feel.

Hey VOC, Like you, I tend to overthink things.  I used to rely on my intellect to avoid feelings.  Now, I pay attention to my feelings and allow myself to experience them and let them pass through me, rather than stuffing them in some corner of my brain.  I'm still getting the hang of feelings, but I'm better at recognizing them when they come up.  It's unpredictable, because sometimes feelings appear for me without an obvious trigger.  Yet if I'm patient I'm usually able to find the source, which helps me feel more connected to myself.  The bottom line is that my feelings are part of me, so I give them respect, just as I do other parts of my authentic self.

I'm rambling here and hope you might find something I put down helpful.   

LuckyJim

[vortex of confusion]

Are you maybe trying to change your past understanding of reality as a way to cope?

I don't think I am trying to change my past understanding of reality as much as I am trying to get a better grip on things. I think I am trying to intellectualize something that can't be intellectualized. I like to analyze and overthink things. That is my nature.

Are you trying to deny the reality you always knew?

I don't think I am trying to deny the reality I always knew as much as I am trying to reflect on it and find my blind spots so that I don't repeat it. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If I can see where I dismissed myself or downplayed the negative in order to be okay with whatever it was, then maybe I can be more alert and aware moving forward. I am trying to analyze my own patterns so that I can figure out how to move forward.

Idk, just pondering here.  I find it interesting though because in a sense, our past reality was our reality because we only understand and know what we do at a time.  With the understanding of a wiser self, I suppose we can repaint our past again and again as we evolve.

I don't want to repaint it as much as I want to remove the rose colored glasses. As I gain new information, I can look at things from a new perspective and perhaps gain some more self knowledge and self awareness.

[vortex of confusion]

Hey VOC, Like you, I tend to overthink things.  I used to rely on my intellect to avoid feelings.  Now, I pay attention to my feelings and allow myself to experience them and let them pass through me, rather than stuffing them in some corner of my brain.  I'm still getting the hang of feelings, but I'm better at recognizing them when they come up.  It's unpredictable, because sometimes feelings appear for me without an obvious trigger.  Yet if I'm patient I'm usually able to find the source, which helps me feel more connected to myself.  The bottom line is that my feelings are part of me, so I give them respect, just as I do other parts of my authentic self.

I'm rambling here and hope you might find something I put down helpful.   

Thank you Lucky Jim!

I find this very helpful. It captures some of my struggles rather nicely. I am still trying to get the hang of this whole thing where I allow myself to have feelings that seem illogical. Feelings by their very nature are completely illogical. I have a difficult time with that and quite often times catch myself saying, "I don't know why but I feel . . . ." As though I have to have some kind of logical or rational reason for feeling anything. I hate that my feelings sometimes come out of the blue and seem to be contradict me. How can I feel X? I am doing Y. It makes no sense for me to feel X.

[Grey Kitty]

Where does being positive end and rationalizing begin?

Quick thought: The line is where you start trying to ignore/write away/deny the very real negative side of things.

Can you be positive and remember the negatives still exist and are still real?

[vortex of confusion]

Quick thought: The line is where you start trying to ignore/write away/deny the very real negative side of things.

Can you be positive and remember the negatives still exist and are still real?

Absolutely! I can look at the negatives, shake hands with them, and become their best friend! 

In mathematics, two negatives make a positive.

It isn't that I deny that the negatives exist. I feel like I am usually very aware of them.

[Sunfl0wer]

Are you maybe trying to change your past understanding of reality as a way to cope?

I don't think I am trying to change my past understanding of reality as much as I am trying to get a better grip on things. I think I am trying to intellectualize something that can't be intellectualized. I like to analyze and overthink things. That is my nature.

Are you trying to deny the reality you always knew?

I don't think I am trying to deny the reality I always knew as much as I am trying to reflect on it and find my blind spots so that I don't repeat it. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If I can see where I dismissed myself or downplayed the negative in order to be okay with whatever it was, then maybe I can be more alert and aware moving forward. I am trying to analyze my own patterns so that I can figure out how to move forward.

Idk, just pondering here.  I find it interesting though because in a sense, our past reality was our reality because we only understand and know what we do at a time.  With the understanding of a wiser self, I suppose we can repaint our past again and again as we evolve.

I don't want to repaint it as much as I want to remove the rose colored glasses. As I gain new information, I can look at things from a new perspective and perhaps gain some more self knowledge and self awareness.

Very well articulated! Makes perfect sense!

[Lucky Jim]

I hate that my feelings sometimes come out of the blue and seem to be contradict me. How can I feel X? I am doing Y. It makes no sense for me to feel X.

Hello again, VOC, If I may make a suggestion, it would be to embrace those feelings that "come out of the blue," rather than trying to deny them ("I hate that . . . ".

LuckyJim

[flourdust]

Journaling helped me with this. I tended to minimize the rages and other BPD behaviors so that I wouldn't think about them. Once I started journaling what was going on, I had a record to review. There were many occasions, early on, when I would say to myself "This [BPD behavior] is worse than it's ever been before!" Then I'd look at my journal and see that, no, it had been just as bad many times in the past.

[eeks]

I hate that my feelings sometimes come out of the blue and seem to be contradict me. How can I feel X? I am doing Y. It makes no sense for me to feel X.

Hello again, VOC, If I may make a suggestion, it would be to embrace those feelings that "come out of the blue," rather than trying to deny them ("I hate that . . . ".

LuckyJim

I agree, LJ.  Sometimes the feelings may seem to "come out of the blue", but that may be because they were triggered for some reason by the current situation.  You may not know what triggered them (a smell, someone's facial expression, a word you heard... .) and you may not need to know.  And, it may also not make sense to express the feelings to another person (if there's another person or people around), or it may not be the right time or place.

However, the arising of those feelings can present an opportunity for healing, if you take some time to make a curious inquiry into them, and what they may be trying to tell you.

[vortex of confusion]

Journaling helped me with this. I tended to minimize the rages and other BPD behaviors so that I wouldn't think about them. Once I started journaling what was going on, I had a record to review. There were many occasions, early on, when I would say to myself "This [BPD behavior] is worse than it's ever been before!" Then I'd look at my journal and see that, no, it had been just as bad many times in the past.

I have done some journaling at different times. I had several blogs. I have read through a lot of stuff and it is weird how some of the stuff I wrote about applied to stbx yet I didn't do it consciously. I wrote a bunch of stuff about gaslighting one time. I didn't see that stbx had been doing it to me. I was writing about it in the context of parenting.

I also find it confusing at times to get those "On this day" memories on FB. So many of them are so full of positive stuff that was bragging about stbx and the nice things that he did. For the longest time, I wouldn't even allow myself to journal about the bad stuff because I didn't want to think about it.

[vortex of confusion]

I agree, LJ.  Sometimes the feelings may seem to "come out of the blue", but that may be because they were triggered for some reason by the current situation.  You may not know what triggered them (a smell, someone's facial expression, a word you heard... .) and you may not need to know.  And, it may also not make sense to express the feelings to another person (if there's another person or people around), or it may not be the right time or place.

However, the arising of those feelings can present an opportunity for healing, if you take some time to make a curious inquiry into them, and what they may be trying to tell you.

Now if I could do a better job of not acting on them when they come up. I had a set back this past weekend. I engaged stbx in conversation. I told him my feelings and contacted the lady that he was chasing.

My feelings are none of his business. What he is doing is none of my business. I have been trying to rationalize why I did what I did. I have been torturing myself needlessly because I have been trying to rationalize my own behaviors, thoughts, and feelings. There is nothing rational about what I did.

I had to see stbx today. He tried really hard to engage me in a conversation. I resisted and did not engage at all. I have to remind myself that I have good reason to NOT engage him at all. Him reaching out to me is NOT positive no matter how much I try to repaint it as a positive. He isn't trying to engage me out of genuine love or care. He is a self centered jerk and no amount of me finding the positive is going to change that and I need to stop rationalizing and intellectualizing things and accept that my feelings towards him are not positive. I don't have to give him a gold star for anything that even remotely resembles positive.

[jhkbuzz]

I can do the same thing - see the good side of things, ignore the negatives. I had a childhood that trained me well for it.

How did I deal with a mom I loved more than life itself, but who raged and hit me and then expected me to act like it never happened a little while later? How did I deal with a dad who was gentle and funny but who looked the other way when my mother flew off the handle and raged at his children?  How did I deal with a family member that I loved very much, but who molested me and then expected me to act normally around him when everyone else was in the room?

It took a long time to let go of my r/s with my exBPD. I recently realized the same dynamic was there: I was being treated horribly but was moving through life by ignoring the negatives.  Just like I did as a child, when I had no choice because I had no choice.

But being treated badly by people who claim to love me is not okay, not at all. Not anymore.

Much of this thread is very intellectual. You can chase your tail like this until the end of your life, if you choose. But until you get into the nitty gritty of dealing with your feelings, nothing will make sense. All of this intellectualism is a way to stave off dealing with terribly messy, embarrassing, painful, gut-wrenching emotions.

[doubleAries]

jhkbuzz--your last paragraph is spot on correct. I spent years dancing an intellectual tango around those feelings. Didn't know how to access them anymore. When they finally came gushing out, it was pretty intense. Still have bouts, but nothing like the first several rounds. The shame was overwhelming.

[half-life]

Journaling helped me with this. I tended to minimize the rages and other BPD behaviors so that I wouldn't think about them. Once I started journaling what was going on, I had a record to review. There were many occasions, early on, when I would say to myself "This [BPD behavior] is worse than it's ever been before!" Then I'd look at my journal and see that, no, it had been just as bad many times in the past.

Journaling is an excellent idea. I have very sparse entries during the early years. Even then when I review it, I can see the problem almost pop up from the first year in our 15 years marriage. I wrote those entries because I was extreme upset from some BS argument and I could not understand what was going on.

These days I am trying to do it regularly. A few sentences everyday or every other day.

I joined this thread late. One idea to help distinguish between being positive and rationalizing is to get it off the chest and discuss them with other people. I find this board a great resource. It is not just a complain fest but also offer a lot thoughtful discussions. It is very useful to bounce idea with others rather than overthink by yourself.

That's say, I find it weird that I can share and discuss depth thought on an anonymous forum but have few people in real life to share with. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the SO is the one who understand you and you are comfortable to share with?