Boundaries and Sex

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I miss having someone I'd consider "the love of my life" which is what I thought this husband was when we married. I really don't know if such a creature even exists. For the most part, he is a kind man, but those of us here know how empty a relationship can be with a pwBPD. It's all about them and they know, or care, so little about our emotional well being.

You know, Cat Familiar, this is a big part of my r/s (like most people here).  Not the "kind man" part because uBPDbf isn't that most of the time, but the emptiness is definitely something I understand.  Some days, I want to come home from work and talk about my day but he can't deal with it.  No matter what I say, even a small, inconsequential story, he turns around and makes me the bad guy somehow, so I don't talk about my job.  Its where I send most of my time and he has no idea what I really do. Crazy.

He and I dated for 2 years before buying a house together and were friends for about 15 years before that and he was a "kind man" then.  He was funny, outgoing, all the things I wanted in a guy - until we moved in together.  Then it all went to hell.

[toomanyeggshells]

I miss having someone I'd consider "the love of my life" which is what I thought this husband was when we married. I really don't know if such a creature even exists. For the most part, he is a kind man, but those of us here know how empty a relationship can be with a pwBPD. It's all about them and they know, or care, so little about our emotional well being.

You know, Cat Familiar, this is a big part of my r/s (like most people here).  Not the "kind man" part because uBPDbf isn't that most of the time, but the emptiness is definitely something I understand.  Some days, I want to come home from work and talk about my day but he can't deal with it.  No matter what I say, even a small, inconsequential story, he turns around and makes me the bad guy somehow, so I don't talk about my job.  Its where I send most of my time and he has no idea what I really do. Crazy.

He and I dated for 2 years before buying a house together and were friends for about 15 years before that and he was a "kind man" then.  He was funny, outgoing, all the things I wanted in a guy - until we moved in together.  Then it all went to hell.

[HurtinNW]

I miss having someone I'd consider "the love of my life" which is what I thought this husband was when we married. I really don't know if such a creature even exists. For the most part, he is a kind man, but those of us here know how empty a relationship can be with a pwBPD. It's all about them and they know, or care, so little about our emotional well being.

You know, Cat Familiar, this is a big part of my r/s (like most people here).  Not the "kind man" part because uBPDbf isn't that most of the time, but the emptiness is definitely something I understand.  Some days, I want to come home from work and talk about my day but he can't deal with it.  No matter what I say, even a small, inconsequential story, he turns around and makes me the bad guy somehow, so I don't talk about my job.  Its where I send most of my time and he has no idea what I really do. Crazy.

He and I dated for 2 years before buying a house together and were friends for about 15 years before that and he was a "kind man" then.  He was funny, outgoing, all the things I wanted in a guy - until we moved in together.  Then it all went to hell.

I think it is that feeling that this person does not genuinely care about us, or our feelings, is what eventually kills the desire. It is really hard to welcome someone into your body when you feel they don't care about your feelings.

My ex would also turn any comment, opinion or story into an excuse to attack. It was really crazy-making. At the time I would feel confused and bewildered. Later I'd go back through the memory, step by step, trying to figure out how we got from me relating a positive story about my son to being wrong about everything.

I also felt that he had zero interest in my days. My ex was capable at times of comforting me if there wasn't any chance he was accountability, but it was a very distance, wooden sort of comfort, like he was play-acting what comfort looks like, and not feeling it. There was just this constant walking on eggshells, as your user name says.

For me sex has to involve a sense of trust, and quite frankly, I didn't trust my ex. How can you trust someone who rages and abuses? For me the lack of empathy and respect for my feelings was where I realized I could not radically accept my ex, at least not in relationship with him.

[Grey Kitty]

Also, I don't fear his rages, rather, every time he does that, it makes me want to be with him less and less.  [... .]

His rages for pretty much everything are the same ... .name calling, threats, saying nasty things about my kids and family, accusing me of cheating.

You can do better at addressing those rages, removing yourself more quickly and more consistently as soon as he starts to do any of those things. After an extinction burst (or several), he will eventually discover that trying to rage at you does him absolutely no good; he might as well rage at the wall, 'cuz you won't be there as soon as he starts.

This will take time, practice, and willpower on your part, but it really will make a huge difference.

Are you able to ask him to do what you want during sex?

I usually don't say much to him because I feel like he'll take anything I say as criticism.  I guess I have to figure out how to communicate things on my mind in a helpful way. 

I can go almost fatalistic about this--you have two choices here, risk asking for what you want, or be certain you will never get it from him. That said, how you ask does matter.

After you've taken raging away from him as a relationship tool, you will have a better chance. Even if he *does* interpret something as criticism, the consequences will be far less threatening/frightening for you. You don't have to walk on eggshells as much.

One general principle--it is a lot easier to hear positive requests: "I like what you are doing" or "I want you to do X" [when he has the option of doing X immediately after you say it.] If he's doing something you don't enjoy (but don't find painful/hurtful/damaging/etc. in any way), you don't have to say anything about it.

Dunno how well you can get there without reclaiming some positive feelings for him first. Once again, working really hard to eliminate the most negative parts through boundary enforcement will help.

[toomanyeggshells]

You can do better at addressing those rages, removing yourself more quickly and more consistently as soon as he starts to do any of those things. After an extinction burst (or several), he will eventually discover that trying to rage at you does him absolutely no good; he might as well rage at the wall, 'cuz you won't be there as soon as he starts.

I do remove myself when he rages.  Either I leave the room and the house.  In 6 years, he hasn't put 2 and 2 together and realized that when he rages, I walk away.  Walking away hasn't changed his behavior one bit.

Are you able to ask him to do what you want during sex?

I usually don't say much to him because I feel like he'll take anything I say as criticism.  I guess I have to figure out how to communicate things on my mind in a helpful way. 

I can go almost fatalistic about this--you have two choices here, risk asking for what you want, or be certain you will never get it from him. That said, how you ask does matter.

After you've taken raging away from him as a relationship tool, you will have a better chance. Even if he *does* interpret something as criticism, the consequences will be far less threatening/frightening for you. You don't have to walk on eggshells as much.

One general principle--it is a lot easier to hear positive requests: "I like what you are doing" or "I want you to do X" [when he has the option of doing X immediately after you say it.] If he's doing something you don't enjoy (but don't find painful/hurtful/damaging/etc. in any way), you don't have to say anything about it.

Dunno how well you can get there without reclaiming some positive feelings for him first. Once again, working really hard to eliminate the most negative parts through boundary enforcement will help.

This is all very helpful Grey Kitty.  I like the suggestion of positive requests. Makes a lot of sense.  I'm going to give it a try and see what happens. 

[formflier]

What happens when you come back after a rage?

Do you say anything or just leave?

FF

[Notwendy]

One thing to consider is the changes over time. I think those of us around TME's age can feel a diminishing desire because of the hormonal changes. This may compound the issues with your BF, but he may perceive them as rejection. I bring this up because pregnancy did this to me, and my H took that as rejection.

I think being less hormone influenced, we women of a certain age become even more emotionally driven when it comes to sex. We still want it, but any lack of emotional connection may make desire more difficult. And being treated inconsiderately could take desire away altogether.

While men also have lowered hormones, they continue to make those "little swimmers" all their lives and continue to have a drive to eject them. Women on the other hand, have no more use for them and this can change our biological drive. It is at this point that sexual desire can be more emotion driven than biological. However, other issues can arise for men at this time as a loss of testosterone presents itself physically to them. They may want to have sex more as a way to reassure themselves that "they still got it going"- right at the time we ladies are thinking about it less.

But I don't think this is something that can not be worked out with some mutual TLC and understanding. I hope the positive suggestions help.

[toomanyeggshells]

What happens when you come back after a rage?

Do you say anything or just leave?

Usually we don't speak to each other too much. I try to keep my distance usually till the next day. We definitely don't talk about it.

[toomanyeggshells]

One thing to consider is the changes over time. I think those of us around TME's age can feel a diminishing desire because of the hormonal changes. This may compound the issues with your BF, but he may perceive them as rejection. I bring this up because pregnancy did this to me, and my H took that as rejection

I agree completely. I think it's a combination of hormones and his behavior. When I've mentioned to him anything about menopause, he just plays it off like it's an excuse for me not to want to have sex.

Oh well, I'm going try the suggestions from everyone here. I really appreciate all the responses   

[Notwendy]

That was a huge misconception for me. My H didn't express his hurt feelings or feelings of rejection- and so I had no clue that this is what he felt. He is an intelligent guy. I assumed he could see with his own two eyes that if his wife is puking from morning sickness, she doesn't want sex at the moment. I also didn't know that he would see it so extreme. For me, it was a temporary thing, to him it was rejection.

Your partner may understand intellectually that menopause exists, but emotionally still feel rejected.


I think this is true for many people- in the moment when they are hurting - that is all they see. I think it is tough on anyone to have their partner not be interested in sex- even momentarily, but adults modulate their feelings. People who have difficulty with this may feel completely flooded at the moment and act out. I think at other times it is possible to communicate with them.

I am also menopausal and it helps me to know about the tendency for my H to assume I am rejecting him even if it has nothing to do with him.  Something to keep in mind is that I think some men grieve the loss of the potency they had when they were younger and so may fear a change in frequency. I have read that people can have satisfying sex lives at any age, even if it is different over the ages- so I hope that the two of you can work this out.

[formflier]

Something to keep in mind is that I think some men grieve the loss of the potency they had when they were younger and so may fear a change in frequency.

I can remember this "fear".  There was a long time when every time that I had sex I would climax.  My gut tells me from listening to lots of people that I have sex a lot, compared with the "average" married couple. 

So, several years ago, I noticed that I would sometimes be unable to climax if I had sex earlier (and climaxed then) that day or if my joints were bothering me a bunch. 

It freaked me out some and really freaked out my wife, because in true BPDish style, she assumed she was doing something "wrong". 

So, now I can usually figure out in the first 10 minutes or so if there is a chance "for me" or if it is really going to be about my wife. 

FF

[Notwendy]

Similar changes happen at menopause, but since it isn't as obvious for women, or related to "performance", I don't think it has quite the emotional impact as it does on a man. But that doesn't mean they don't have an emotional impact.  These were sort of a double whammy as my H would not want to talk about his feelings and then interpreted my response as further rejection.

Sex is important to marriage I would hope that people also realize it is part of a whole life between two human beings who are influenced by emotions, stress, and hormones- which can change over time. While I know that people can have fulfilling intimate lives at any age, I think it is known that hormonal changes can affect frequency and potency, yet physical affection and intimacy can continue. I guess I had some idea that couples would be able to navigate this together.

What I have found is that pwBPD or traits can tend to have this "reject" message that is so easily triggered it can be triggered even if we don't intend it. Yet, it isn't our responsibility to take care of that- it isn't our trigger, but if we recognize it, I think it helps to not take the reaction personally, and not respond with our own "hurt" reaction.

[Herodias]

Mine wanted it everyday as well... .He would complain I wouldn't pursue him first, but when I did, he said no. He was trying to get it elsewhere, online and at work. He even told me he masterbated in the bathroom at work. He had women sending him pictures of their privates! He even had silicone body parts he would use late at night if he came home late from work and I was in bed. It always had to be a big performance, since he watched allot of porn and wanted to imitate it. I have read they are basically masterbating with your body, it's not making love, like we think it is. Mine always wanted to know if he performed well after we finished... .everytime. Again, mine had more NPD traits, so not sure if it makes a difference. Mine was into kinky stuff, yet I would only let it go so far. He told me once he thought he was like Christian Gray in "50 shades of Gray"... .that's telling.

[Notwendy]

Herodias, that sounds hurtful- sorry. I have read some of your other threads about your ex. That had to be a difficult situation. I didn't read Shades of Grey or see the movie. The previews were enough. To each his own, and if that's OK between two people, then that's their business, but having been through my mother and marital issues, one person inflicting pain on someone else is not my cup of tea.

I am not a prude either, but if someone wants an always available body part who doesn't talk back, and doesn't expect to be treated kindly, then a silicone body part fits the bill.

Sex is important in a relationship but there is more- companionship, trust, being there for each other.

I guess how someone treats us is our boundary to set, then they have choices too.

[Herodias]

" if someone wants an always available body part who doesn't talk back, and doesn't expect to be treated kindly, then a silicone body part fits the bill. "   

LOL - maybe that's what all our exes need!

[Grey Kitty]

I will just add a bit of "ick" about 50 shades of grey.

My knowledge about BDSM is academic and comes from reading about it, especially from authors who I do believe are healthy people that treat their romantic partners or play partners very well* (If a person wants to experience pain/degradation/submission, and it is accomplished in a way that the participants enjoy, I consider that good treatment), and that community is pretty universally disgusted with 50 shades of grey in dozens of ways.

I've heard is that grey himself is narcissistic and abusive in the relationship, from people whose opinions I trust. (After hearing all this I had no particular interest in reading the books or watching the movie, so this is all second hand.)

[Herodias]

Grey Kitty, I wasn't interested in reading any of the books either. I am surprised by the popularity of it all. Yes, Grey is a narcissist-they even discuss his past and why he may be that way.  I did end up seeing the movie at home on tv, not in the theatre. It was't very good and it isn't very healthy for people to see. There is a lot of controversy on it. Some people I know who are authors said it was actually humorous in their opinion on how the movie was handled. Not good to make it seem like"normal"  behavior to young girls. I know what you mean... .The whole thing bothered me in that my husband wanted to "be him"... .We didn't have relations like that exactly, but he did push boundaries with me and if I didn't give in, made me feel horrible for it.  They always tell women to give in to their husbands wishes or he will leave you for someone else... .that was always in the back of my mind, being with a younger man. I only said no to him three times in ten years and when I did I had hell to pay. He was usually so drunk (the reason I said no), he tortured me. I now know he cheated on me regardless... I feel like I am not interested in sex anymore. He ruined it all for me. I feel very different now. I used to be a very sexual person. I have no interest now. Maybe I will get over it one day, but for now I am in my safe place. Alone.

[HurtinNW]

I have good friends involved in the "lifestyle," including doms and dominatrix, and they all loathe 50 shades. Real bdsm involves tons of consent and trust. I have a female friend who is a professional dominatrix and she says she often gets men who were victims of emotional incest by their mothers, and they come to her to "work" out their issues. Basically a lot of it is reclaiming abuse history by taking control of it via our own sexuality.

As you all know I was a victim of molestation from ages four, from my predatory sex offender stepdad to other pedophiles my mother welcomed into the home. It took a lot of work and therapy to reclaim my own sexuality, and a pivotal moment was when I welcomed the shame and fantasies into my life, and realized that they were actually efforts for me to make it all my own. To take control and own my sexuality.

I personally believe that in a safe, trusting relationship one can act out fantasies of shame and abuse and remake history. I was very lucky to have partners that helped me on that journey.

I just want to say that because boundary-pushing is NOT part of that lifestyle. In fact in the lifestyle people readily recognize that the person on the "bottom" is calling the shots.

Eventually, for me, I realized that monogamy was more important than anything, and I hope to someday find a sexual connection again that allows me to "play" out my own need for redemptive and sacramental sex within a safe monogamous relationship.

[Ceruleanblue]

We've had a few discussions about the subject, but of course he doesn't get it.  When I say "not tonight" he accuses me of being controlling. Of course, he doesn't see his "I want sex every day or else" as his controlling the issue.  I get that. He can't see it.  His brain doesn't work that way. He wants what he wants when he wants it and that's just the way it is. 

Wow, that is my BPDh to a "T". He's always feeling controlled, and this past week, he even said our marriage therapist is trying to "tell him what to do, and he doesn't like anyone telling him what to do!". Uhm, why do we go then? Like you, I know his brain just doesn't process that this is not logical, or even a healthy way to view things. He's a smart man, and it frustrates me so incredibly. His feeling controlled, has done so much damage in his life.

What's weirder is, people who are obviously trying to control him, he refuses to see that in lots of instances(in regards to his adult kids, and one of my kids). It's sort of like some people get a free pass through rose colored glasses, and others get accused of something they aren't even close to doing. Our therapist is NOT telling him he HAS to do anything, but he perceives simple advice that way.

Also like you, my husband does lots of complaining about sex. What's funny is that when I give him all the sex he wants, he'll turn me down, but still want to complain about not getting it enough. It's like a mind game.

I have no actual advice for you, but I can surely empathize. I'm going back to read other responses, because I'm in the same boat.

[toomanyeggshells]

His feeling controlled, has done so much damage in his life.

That's an interesting statement Ceruleanblue.  I never put much thought into uBPDbf feeling controlled by me on issues not related to sex, but I see it now.  He feels like I'm controlling him when I want to watch a different tv show or when I spend time with family because in his mind, when I'm with my family (or doing something else not related to him), I'm not with him and that's controlling what he does. Now that I think about it, he's pretty much said that but in different words.  Geez, that's some crazy stuff.  I'm guessing therapy is the only way for him to deal with it but he'll never do that. 

[Notwendy]

I think it helps to see that (IMHO from observation) pw BPD tend to think you are doing something to them- controlling them, criticizing them, rejecting them, and they can lash out at you.

Suggestions and advice can be perceived as controlling. I recall a conversation with my BPD mother about some work she was having done on her home. I had just had a similar thing done on my home so I passed on a piece of advice that I wished someone had told me. The reaction was - wow a big dysregulation. But I was able to stay calm and listen to her tell me how invalidated she felt, how I was telling her what to do. I have seen a lesser but similar thing with my H. And that includes issues about sex. I often use my mother as an example of behaviors because hers are extreme, yet traits are more subtle, so understanding the obvious in her has helped me to understand other less extreme behaviors better.

I don't think WOE is the solution, but if we are aware of this, it helps us to not take it personally or react to it from that point of view.

[Grey Kitty]

He feels like I'm controlling him when I want to watch a different tv show or when I spend time with family because in his mind, when I'm with my family (or doing something else not related to him), I'm not with him and that's controlling what he does.

You can't stop him from feeling that way or saying that.

But now that you realize that this dynamic is going on, look and see if you are doing anything to play into it, participating in it in anyway?

When he says something about how your behavior is controlling, do you JADE about it?

Do you engage him in any other way about it?

If he feels upset after you do (anything), his way of dealing with his feeling is turning it into a conflict with you. That prevents him from having to admit that the feeling is his, and address it. You can't make him address his feeling... .but you can acknowledge the feeling (validate it), and you can refuse to participate in whatever game he goes to next to avoid the feeling.

[toomanyeggshells]

When he says something about how your behavior is controlling, do you JADE about it?

Do you engage him in any other way about it?

If he feels upset after you do (anything), his way of dealing with his feeling is turning it into a conflict with you. That prevents him from having to admit that the feeling is his, and address it. You can't make him address his feeling... .but you can acknowledge the feeling (validate it), and you can refuse to participate in whatever game he goes to next to avoid the feeling.

This thread is really giving me so much helpful information!  I definitely don't JADE or engage him at all - for anything.  Unless he's having a "normal" conversation with me (few and far between for sure), I don't respond to anything he says other than sometimes I'll say "I hear what you're saying". 

I've tried validating him over the years and I'm not very good at it.  I'm going to read up some more on it and see if that helps. It certainly doesn't help when I don't say anything because then he just thinks I'm ignoring him, which I am.

[Turkish]

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https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=293956.0