What is the root of this maliciousness

[FeelingBitter]

Hi everyone!

I have been working with a survivor of sexual assault who most likely has BPD (hasn't been officially diagnosed, but we all know it. The counselor has been taking her time to diagnose her cause you got to be careful when someone has also been experiencing trauma). She has a friend who was also raped, by a guy who lured her with a drink at a bar. Well this friend told me that the BPD survivor has frequently told her friends they should go to this one bar, because it's her "favorite bar" even though she knows that her friend was lured with alcohol there and preyed on by this predator. When this friend expressed that she was hurt by the fact the BPD girl was saying this in front of her, BPD just got kind of passive-aggressive with her.

Why in the Lord would compel someone to do that. That's just deeply malicious.

[FeelingBitter]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't get how "fear of abandonment" is tied into this kind of behavior. Maybe it's a competitive "my trauma is worse than yours" kinda thing, which ties into the BPD/NPD's need to always feel "special" and the center of attention.

[hashtag_loyal]

Maybe it's a competitive "my trauma is worse than yours" kinda thing, which ties into the BPD/NPD's need to always feel "special" and the center of attention.

Maybe, or maybe you were right the first time when you classified that behavior as malicious.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. And sometimes bad things happen to bad people. I don't think we should overlook or condone abusive behavior just because the perpetrator herself suffered similar (or worse) abuse.

In the case of my ex, I used to have great sympathy for her on account of her childhood trauma (both parents would beat her, and there was some sexual abuse in there as well.) However, I gradually lost sympathy as I became more and more aware of her sadistic behavior towards others.

I think in her mind, because she was violated by those she innately trusted -- her parents -- she now (on a subconscious level) thinks the world is unfair, and does not think that trust and love actually exist. Therefore, she believes that everyone is an abuser, so feels justified herself in abusing others. That's my theory, at least.

Which in my opinion explains, but does not justify her malicious behavior.

[bunny4523]

Why in the Lord would compel someone to do that. That's just deeply malicious.

Or maybe "it is her favorite bar" and that supersedes someone else's feelings.  ?  not sure but I do remember my ex not having compassion about certain situations and then would use it in a playful way.  Like for one example, he told me his ex would always say "as you wish" in a deragatory sarcastic context when he wanted her to do something she didn't want to do.  He was really intense about it, the evilness in her words, how she was such a bad person for saying that to him.   One day I asked him a about something not even important and he responded "as you wish".  Then when I mentioned it, it was like it was the first time he heard that story... .that he told.  Kind of blew me off like it wasn't a big deal.

They seem to disconnect, which is hard for us nons to understand.

[FeelingBitter]

she believes that everyone is an abuser, so feels justified herself in abusing others. That's my theory, at least.  

Thank you so much for responding. What you said about your ex thinking everyone is an abuser reminds me of when I had been working with this girl for 48 hours straight, and she loudly proclaimed that "I have no one in my life to support me." I had been working with her for the last 48 hours, and I was like "um really? What about me?" Her parents had also emotionally and financially been there for her during the process of reporting.

The question I have for you is, do you attribute your ex's behavior to borderline or do you attribute it to just being a ___ty person? Because for me,  not everything this girl does can be comfortably explained away to "mental illness." (in her case, borderline/narcissism) Freaking out when I don't return a call cause she's losing control/feeling abandoned? Sure. That's borderline. Acting shocked when things don't go her way or people aren't at her whim? That's narcissism. But recommending a bar to someone that is associated with her 'best friend's' trauma in front of her best friend? That's evil and malicious. And I got nothing in terms of labeling that as 'mental illness.' As you said, some people suck and are just not good people.

[Wize]

I think a lot of pwBPD have a "saint" complex.  Because they are always the ones abused and everyone else is the abuser, they begin to think that they are incapable of abuse and, like my wife, incapable of doing wrong.  The saint.

[FeelingBitter]

They seem to disconnect, which is hard for us nons to understand.  

Interesting, that's a good point.

She has said she's liked that bar because her friends hang out there. When her friend complained about it, she apparently told her that she sees her friend's rape as a result of this one guy targeting her, not the fault of the bar (even though the bartender supplied him with the alcohol to give to an underage girl).

I guess if you don't have a strong sense of yourself, you're probably not going to have a strong sense of other people's feelings/emotions.

[FeelingBitter]

a lot of pwBPD have a "saint" complex.  

Wow. That is so right on. And it's probably tenfold if a pwBPD has gone through a recent trauma.

[JerryRG]

I used to ask people why my exgf hurt me with sarcasm and lies and disrespect and the answer is "because she can"

My poor bounderies and foo issues were key factors in me accepting unacceptable behaviours from her. She may have seen my compassion and empathy as a weakness and decided she could push me as far as she felt like

I am codependent and find it difficult to say no to anyone because I believe I need to please others to be acceptable.

My exgf could smell me 20 miles away and knew I was an easy target.

She picked me, I did not pick her

Thanks for this post, FeelingBitter

[FeelingBitter]

My exgf could smell me 20 miles away and knew I was an easy target.

Aww, I am sorry

It's interesting you say that. The pwBPD's "best friend" is a pushover and a giver, with a history of abuser herself. I'm also a very empathetic person.

I've been setting strong boundaries with the pwBPD, and now she has been acting really appreciative and respectful. It's kind of floored me. I originally thought that if I set those boundaries, and cut out any elements of it that were not professional, it would only fuel her rage. But it hasn't at all. It's been empowering to know that I DO have a say in this relationship, and I'm going to use the lessons I've learned working with this person in other relationships moving forward.

[hashtag_loyal]

The question I have for you is, do you attribute your ex's behavior to borderline or do you attribute it to just being a [bad] person?

I attribute the fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, dissociative amnesia, attempted suicide, emotional lability, lack of impulse control, intense anger, and self-hatred to her mental illness.

I attribute her constant lying, lack of any effort or desire to get better, and sadistic pleasure gained from hurting others to her being a bad person.

Make sense?

[HoneyB33]

I attribute the fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, dissociative amnesia, attempted suicide, emotional lability, lack of impulse control, intense anger, and self-hatred to her mental illness.

I attribute her constant lying, lack of any effort or desire to get better, and sadistic pleasure gained from hurting others to her being a bad person.

Make sense?

That's a very good distinction.

Feelingbitter I would say that if this girl has narcissist traits, that could really be a huge part to this. My experience with narcissist/sociopathic types, is that they are evil to the core. BPD's often show some "tenderness". They have love in them at times, and make stupid choices because of their mental illness. I'm really compartmentalizing here, but generally pwBPD aren't strait malicious or evil. They turn very cold, shockingly cold, but that isn't the same as a pwNPD. BPD's live in a fantasy world, but they're not just lying to you, they're lying to themselves. They really think that they love you in the beginning. And to some degree, they do. But NPD and sociopathic individuals are very nasty people. From the start they are out to fool people. Narcissism is NOT just the need to be the center of attention, it is marked by this type of malicious cruelty. Yes, one part is that she's so self-absorbed that that is a large factor, but the other part is that a narcissist operates from a basis of completely different behavior that they find acceptable, and it's always cruel.

I had a narcissist friend who thrived off of my pain. Narcissist enjoy other people's pain. And they love being the "victim" of pain. They want bad things to happen to them. This friend would tell me all the time how she had been assaulted, and honestly, I never knew if it was true. I largely believe it wasn't, but that's dangerous territory to deny someone saying that, so I didn't. But she also could tell, like a shark sniffing me out, that I had abuse in my past. She would literally see the most violent movies, and then take me to see them. Then she'd watch me to see how I reacted during the rape scenes. She was trying to feed on my bleeding. And regardless of abusive past, who the hell doesn't cringe during a scene like that? Anyone does, except cluster B people.

BPD's are the "lighter" of all the types of people. There is still hope for these people in some regard if they get into treatment, etc. The same is not true for narcissist, sociopathic, and psychopathic people. I would strongly advice you to listen to your gut in this. You are seeing something evil at play--pay attention. Don't let your hope to help people get in the way. There is an excellent book called Psychopath Free, and much online information about these people. I'd say it's worth looking into. Keep listening to your gut.

[FeelingBitter]

The question I have for you is, do you attribute your ex's behavior to borderline or do you attribute it to just being a [bad] person?

I attribute the fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, dissociative amnesia, attempted suicide, emotional lability, lack of impulse control, intense anger, and self-hatred to her mental illness.

I attribute her constant lying, lack of any effort or desire to get better, and sadistic pleasure gained from hurting others to her being a bad person.

Make sense?

Yes, that is perfect.

[FeelingBitter]

I attribute the fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, dissociative amnesia, attempted suicide, emotional lability, lack of impulse control, intense anger, and self-hatred to her mental illness.

I attribute her constant lying, lack of any effort or desire to get better, and sadistic pleasure gained from hurting others to her being a bad person.

Make sense?

That's a very good distinction.

Feelingbitter I would say that if this girl has narcissist traits, that could really be a huge part to this. My experience with narcissist/sociopathic types, is that they are evil to the core. BPD's often show some "tenderness". They have love in them at times, and make stupid choices because of their mental illness. I'm really compartmentalizing here, but generally pwBPD aren't strait malicious or evil. They turn very cold, shockingly cold, but that isn't the same as a pwNPD. BPD's live in a fantasy world, but they're not just lying to you, they're lying to themselves. They really think that they love you in the beginning. And to some degree, they do. But NPD and sociopathic individuals are very nasty people. From the start they are out to fool people. Narcissism is NOT just the need to be the center of attention, it is marked by this type of malicious cruelty. Yes, one part is that she's so self-absorbed that that is a large factor, but the other part is that a narcissist operates from a basis of completely different behavior that they find acceptable, and it's always cruel.

I had a narcissist friend who thrived off of my pain. Narcissist enjoy other people's pain. And they love being the "victim" of pain. They want bad things to happen to them. This friend would tell me all the time how she had been assaulted, and honestly, I never knew if it was true. I largely believe it wasn't, but that's dangerous territory to deny someone saying that, so I didn't. But she also could tell, like a shark sniffing me out, that I had abuse in my past. She would literally see the most violent movies, and then take me to see them. Then she'd watch me to see how I reacted during the rape scenes. She was trying to feed on my bleeding. And regardless of abusive past, who the hell doesn't cringe during a scene like that? Anyone does, except cluster B people.

BPD's are the "lighter" of all the types of people. There is still hope for these people in some regard if they get into treatment, etc. The same is not true for narcissist, sociopathic, and psychopathic people. I would strongly advice you to listen to your gut in this. You are seeing something evil at play--pay attention. Don't let your hope to help people get in the way. There is an excellent book called Psychopath Free, and much online information about these people. I'd say it's worth looking into. Keep listening to your gut.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I really appreciate it.

Someone earlier brought up that maybe the pwBPD just really likes the bar, and there's a cognitive disconnect going on because her feelings supercedes what happened to her friend. But I just don't see how that "disconnect" can't also be applicable to sociopathy/narcissism. Like the idea that your feelings overrules anyone else's is the entire definition of narcissism.

I 100% believe she was assaulted. As the poster above said, sometimes bad things happen to bad people. But I just can't explain away everything to trauma, or to borderline. There's something wrong with her, something more sinister and dark. I like your clarification on borderline being the "lighter" of the personality disorders - that there's still hope for them. I think of Marsha Linehan - she didn't seem like a malicious, hostile person at all, just a lost one who finally accepted herself and healed.

Great advice to go with your gut. I will. Thank you!

[FeelingBitter]

I attribute the fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, dissociative amnesia, attempted suicide, emotional lability, lack of impulse control, intense anger, and self-hatred to her mental illness.

I attribute her constant lying, lack of any effort or desire to get better, and sadistic pleasure gained from hurting others to her being a bad person.

Make sense?

That's a very good distinction.

Feelingbitter I would say that if this girl has narcissist traits, that could really be a huge part to this. My experience with narcissist/sociopathic types, is that they are evil to the core. BPD's often show some "tenderness". They have love in them at times, and make stupid choices because of their mental illness. I'm really compartmentalizing here, but generally pwBPD aren't strait malicious or evil. They turn very cold, shockingly cold, but that isn't the same as a pwNPD. BPD's live in a fantasy world, but they're not just lying to you, they're lying to themselves. They really think that they love you in the beginning. And to some degree, they do. But NPD and sociopathic individuals are very nasty people. From the start they are out to fool people. Narcissism is NOT just the need to be the center of attention, it is marked by this type of malicious cruelty. Yes, one part is that she's so self-absorbed that that is a large factor, but the other part is that a narcissist operates from a basis of completely different behavior that they find acceptable, and it's always cruel.

I had a narcissist friend who thrived off of my pain. Narcissist enjoy other people's pain. And they love being the "victim" of pain. They want bad things to happen to them. This friend would tell me all the time how she had been assaulted, and honestly, I never knew if it was true. I largely believe it wasn't, but that's dangerous territory to deny someone saying that, so I didn't. But she also could tell, like a shark sniffing me out, that I had abuse in my past. She would literally see the most violent movies, and then take me to see them. Then she'd watch me to see how I reacted during the rape scenes. She was trying to feed on my bleeding. And regardless of abusive past, who the hell doesn't cringe during a scene like that? Anyone does, except cluster B people.

BPD's are the "lighter" of all the types of people. There is still hope for these people in some regard if they get into treatment, etc. The same is not true for narcissist, sociopathic, and psychopathic people. I would strongly advice you to listen to your gut in this. You are seeing something evil at play--pay attention. Don't let your hope to help people get in the way. There is an excellent book called Psychopath Free, and much online information about these people. I'd say it's worth looking into. Keep listening to your gut.

Also, I posted this in a separate thread but I might as well cross-post here. I just don't see this as normal BPD behavior... .

"I know a pwBPD (not formally diagnosed, but everyone and their mother knows it) for the last year who I think has sociopathic qualities. She has recently talked about abuse in her family but changes the narrative frequently.

She apparently told someone she was dating in high school her parents physically hit her and her siblings, and then told me that was the reason why he decided to dump her. She then told her best friend her freshman year that "abuse is common in my culture, but not in my family. My dad would spank my sister sometimes, and that was it." Then she recently told me a few months ago her parents would hit her and her siblings sometimes, but wouldn't go into detail. She then cryptically told me that she "comes from a violent place" and used to hit her siblings. THEN her friend told me while at dinner with a bunch of people, everyone was telling stories about their worst fight with their sibling, and the pwBPD dropped she once tied her brother up and 'did things to him.'

Why does she keep on going back and forth about the violence thing, and why is she now telling people she used to hurt her siblings? Is this normal BPD behavior? This seems more psychopathic. "

[FeelingBitter]

"I had a narcissist friend who thrived off of my pain. Narcissist enjoy other people's pain. And they love being the "victim" of pain. They want bad things to happen to them."

Why do narcissism want bad things to happen to them?

[FeelingBitter]

Actually just found this link that describes why narcissists like being victims.

www.psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2010/03/29/narcissists-who-cry-the-other-side-of-the-ego/

[gotbushels]

Hi FeelingBitter 

Why in the Lord would compel someone to do that. That's just deeply malicious.

To add some perspectives that the upwBPD's behaviours here may not necessarily imply an "evil" nature:

• The upwBPD may not make the connection that preference of her own feelings is a selfish / malicious behaviour. When people express that their own feelings are more severe than the upwBPD's, they may take it as invalidating. When upwBPDs are invalidated it follows they will act out. In this case, the passive-aggression.
  
• The upwBPD may not interpret the bar as a place being "above-average" in destructive behaviour like sexual assault. Invalidation by others → passive-aggression.
  
• The friend's act of expressing her hurt which followed as a result of the upwBPD's recommendation is an invalidation of the upwBPD's desires. I.e., the upwBPD plainly desires to go to the bar. Other people being hurt because of her actions has an invalidating quality. Invalidation by others → passive-aggression.
  
• The upwBPD may consciously/subconsciously interpret assault-like behaviour by men as desirable (on the basis that it is somewhat attention-maximising to the point of being unlawful). Please consider this one with salt. She may project this desire to understand others. Real world evidence contrary to this may be invalidating. Hence, invalidation by others → passive-aggression.

You can also consider it plainly. The upwBPD is trying to tell people what to do in the form of a recommendation. Someone is telling her that's "wrong" ("When this friend expressed that she was hurt" = negative indication of validity). Generally, if the BP struggles with being told she's "wrong" → acts out. Hence--simply--in this case: "I'm wrong." → dysregulate.


In terms of the acting out's connection to "fear of abandonment"; I'd guess as follows. Normal people sometimes get hurt when they are wrong. But, pwBPDs may interpret feedback of "wrong" = I'm not good enough + I must be perfect to be accepted or else this relationship terminates → this person is going to leave → survival instinct → acting out.

I was a little confused by the last sentence of your story so please correct me if I've mistaken anything.

[FeelingBitter]

This is all very interesting. Thank you. I will definitely consider this. Man, what an illness this is! It makes me SO GRATEFUL I just suffer from some anxiety, and that's it!

This is interesting:

• The upwBPD may consciously/subconsciously interpret assault-like behaviour by men as desirable (on the basis that it is somewhat attention-maximising to the point of being unlawful). Please consider this one with salt. She may project this desire to understand others. Real world evidence contrary to this may be invalidating. Hence, invalidation by others → passive-aggression.

I remember once telling the pwBPD that rape is about power, not sex or desire. She at first said she didn't understand that, and then later on mentioned that she didn't agree with it. Given that she was interested in her perpetrator before he decided to abuse that trust by assaulting her, I saw this as her trying to re-frame her experience in a way that didn't make her feel even more degraded than she already did. Now within the context of BPD, that makes even more sense.

[gotbushels]

Man, what an illness this is! It makes me SO GRATEFUL I just suffer from some anxiety, and that's it!

I definitely feel so grateful too when I compare my things to persons suffering from BPD. It's a good reminder when I'm frustrated with something. Similarly when we get out of FOG or things like extreme vigilance it really makes me very appreciative of things much closer to normality.