New tactic

[Depression = 72% of members]

  Dear FoggyDew,

Thank you for your kind words and reaching out. 

Lets take first things first. How about you Foggy? I see a strong person in there somewhere, do you see what I see? Do you feel strong?

What are some things while concentrating on this relationship, you can do for you? Do you have any goals, or dreams that you would like to start?

How about exercising or an art perhaps, a book even right now that you have been wanting to read?

Reason I ask is seems you are getting enough support and advice on here for the other. You know all the articles and tools on here that are available.

How about we step out right now and have a cup of virtual tea? You can do this Foggy, one step at a time. Wake up tomorrow and start a gratitude journal or do you happen to have one? You need one as I see some joy coming into your life. So if you have one great, if not start one tomorrow. It might be hard at first but find any little joys you have.

I have a quite a few dear friends from the UK. One I exchange tea cups challenges with, another we do round robin art passes, another we are sharing a private journey of walking so many miles logged with thousands. How about you find something you want to share with me here that is a joy. We can all use some encouragement.

Chin up, easier said then done, but I am of the belief you are here for a reason and it is not to sit on here sad. Yes it is great you have support, keep typing away dear everyone here cares but I see soon you are going to have some joy to share and some joy that makes you feel alive and great.

I am not just saying that Foggy, a few Pm'd me to come back and give them some advice. I was leaving as have some things to do, and you reached out. Ty for your compliments on Meili's post.

 So I looked at some of your posts and I saw a beautiful person and soul. It might seem dark now but that is for contrast we can't always have bright days as we wouldn't appreciate them or the people with us.

“Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass…it's about learning how to dance in the rain!”

"It is always better to light a candle then curse the darkness." By the way you can't get rid of darkness with darkness so shed some light.

Find one small habit you want to change and start tomorrow this weekend with your gratitude journal.

Take small steps and only concentrate on the one thing. Whatever it is, then report back. Do your gratitude for 30 days, and find the joy again. It is there for you.

Fear knocked on the door Faith answered ( hinds hotel).

One other thing saw you were fearing remember FEAR is False evidence appearing real. If you don't want something then let it go, if you do, then see why you want it and make it happen.

What are your thoughts on what you want to do?

  ,

LR

If I don't come back on there is so many that care, keep going my dear, keep going.
You can and will do it. You are a kind person with uplifting thoughts to others as well. TY for reaching out. 

[Lilyroze]

  Dear FoggyDew,

Thank you for your kind words and reaching out. 

Lets take first things first. How about you Foggy? I see a strong person in there somewhere, do you see what I see? Do you feel strong?

What are some things while concentrating on this relationship, you can do for you? Do you have any goals, or dreams that you would like to start?

How about exercising or an art perhaps, a book even right now that you have been wanting to read?

Reason I ask is seems you are getting enough support and advice on here for the other. You know all the articles and tools on here that are available.

How about we step out right now and have a cup of virtual tea? You can do this Foggy, one step at a time. Wake up tomorrow and start a gratitude journal or do you happen to have one? You need one as I see some joy coming into your life. So if you have one great, if not start one tomorrow. It might be hard at first but find any little joys you have.

I have a quite a few dear friends from the UK. One I exchange tea cups challenges with, another we do round robin art passes, another we are sharing a private journey of walking so many miles logged with thousands. How about you find something you want to share with me here that is a joy. We can all use some encouragement.

Chin up, easier said then done, but I am of the belief you are here for a reason and it is not to sit on here sad. Yes it is great you have support, keep typing away dear everyone here cares but I see soon you are going to have some joy to share and some joy that makes you feel alive and great.

I am not just saying that Foggy, a few Pm'd me to come back and give them some advice. I was leaving as have some things to do, and you reached out. Ty for your compliments on Meili's post.

 So I looked at some of your posts and I saw a beautiful person and soul. It might seem dark now but that is for contrast we can't always have bright days as we wouldn't appreciate them or the people with us.

“Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass…it's about learning how to dance in the rain!”

"It is always better to light a candle then curse the darkness." By the way you can't get rid of darkness with darkness so shed some light.

Find one small habit you want to change and start tomorrow this weekend with your gratitude journal.

Take small steps and only concentrate on the one thing. Whatever it is, then report back. Do your gratitude for 30 days, and find the joy again. It is there for you.

Fear knocked on the door Faith answered ( hinds hotel).

One other thing saw you were fearing remember FEAR is False evidence appearing real. If you don't want something then let it go, if you do, then see why you want it and make it happen.

What are your thoughts on what you want to do?

  ,

LR

If I don't come back on there is so many that care, keep going my dear, keep going.
You can and will do it. You are a kind person with uplifting thoughts to others as well. TY for reaching out. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[foggydew]

Thank you so much, Lily . I'd like to be able to consider this more carefully, but I have just had a phone call to say that uBPD person and his girlfriend are coming. This just floors me. I don't know how I'm going to cope. I said I'm not sure if I really want to see them. I just feel so fragile at the mo.

[patientandclear]

Thank you so much, Lily . I'd like to be able to consider this more carefully, but I have just had a phone call to say that uBPD person and his girlfriend are coming. This just floors me. I don't know how I'm going to cope. I said I'm not sure if I really want to see them. I just feel so fragile at the mo.

If you don't feel like doing this at the moment, tell them no thanks, I've got other plans for the day, maybe some other time.

So simple, but the beginning of a different dynamic. The current one doesn't seem to be making you feel so hot. Try something different. A DBT name for this is "opposite action." Try doing the opposite of what your self concept and precepts and self talk and habits around this r/ship tell you you should. Odds are excellent it will feel different and in some way change what you have to work with in terms of emotional resources and choices available for the future and perspective.

[foggydew]

Today is a better day. Patientandclear, I actually more or less did what you said, and girlfriend decided she didn't want to come anyway. Sis in law called and talked me through the whole business, and suggested that maybe something I could do that would interest me is take a training course in dealing with personaliy disorders. She is in the social field and knows that there are such courses. Sounds intersting - I really think it is an interesting topic. I went out, and actually found some friends who were prepared to talk - so often I can't even break into the conversation because of the group dynamics. Short of standing on the table and screaming.
I have been ill the last week which didn't help, and that is improving too.
And such nice and helpful responses on here - that has helped so much. I do get very isolated, and isolation, BPD and only contact with disturbed persons is exhausting. Even I need a bit of appreciative contact sometimes. Stops me feeling invisible.
Have a good day, everyone. xx

[Meili]

 

I'm so happy to hear that your day was better and that you're starting to get over being ill!

The training course sounds interesting. I hope that you'll let us know if that's what you decide to do and how it turns out.

Isolation is never a good thing. I used to scoff at the idea that humans need interaction with others. I could not have been more wrong. It must have felt good to get out and talk to people.

There were so many great things in your post. You sound much better. Cheers!

[foggydew]

Ok, well, I was better. Till friend started sending me fairly intimate pictures of himself and girlfriend, where they are obviously feeling very good with each other. Now, I should feel happy for him, and it is in there somewhere. But I guess I have to be honest with myself too, and that is a lot more painful than I want to think. I suppose I do love him, whatever I try to do convince myself to the contrary, even though there is the massive age difference. And our relationship has been more or less like any partnership at times, only without sex. At least for the past couple of years. He wanted to take it up again, but that wouldn't be right - not for him, as a young man, and not for me, who would suffer maybe more. Throughout our time together he has always told me he wished I was much younger. At one time he wanted us to get married - I told him I'd marry him just before I died so he could inherit without tax! :-)
I never wanted any kind of relationship with a younger man, when he suggested it, I told him it was not something I thought good. But he persevered. He knows well what our relationship is, he knows well how difficult this is for me. Sometimes I think he enjoys causing pain.
That's the one side.
There is another.
I am without doubt the person he relies on, depends on. With whom he can really be honest when in his not disregulated times. In these (rare) phases he is self-critical, tries to do his best. He told me recently he needs a girlfriend and he doesn't want to die alone. I agree with him. I really do think I am important to him, as he is to me, and that is why I try to push the friendship side.
See, I'm getting all confused again.
Try again. 1) Have to cope with my feelings of being replaced. Have to be honest with myself.
                 2) If I can manage to take back my caretaker role, the kind of relationship and role I want can perhaps be true. This does not depend on him, but on me.
                 3) I'm wavering between running for the hills and taking charge.
                 4)Running for the hills is never an option for me.
                 5) Activity and distance is the key. I have to ensure I don't spend too much time alone.
                 6) This has all happened before. I should be older and wiser now. Six years of it.

When I am feeling ok and logical, I can cope. When the emotional side takes over, I'm a mess. Guess where I am now.
Sorry, everyone, you don't need to read this. But I need to write it. I spend my whole life trying not to get on people's nerves or annoy them, or ask too much of them, but sometimes there is no way out.










 

[Meili]

I can't speak for others, but I needed to read it! I say that because I know that each of us has something to learn from everyone else. So, reading what you write helps me learn more; and, for me, that's what life is all about.

I'm confused though as to why you want to take a caretaker role?

[foggydew]

Why I want a caretaker role? Because, logically, realistically, morally, that seems the only role that is open to me. And it can satisfy the needs of belonging, being useful, that I have.

[patientandclear]

Foggy, are you in therapy? Is there someone helping you these dynamics in real life?

This notion of accepting a caretaker role in lieu of the romantic role that you do long for and that he has spoken of for you, seems really fraught with self-abandonment.

You can like this guy a lot. You can consider that if your ages were closer, or if our society's notions of sexual propriety were less skewed by gender (because I'm guessing if you were the man and he the woman it would be No Problem for you two to pursue each other as romantic partners), you'd be defining this differently.

But to sign on for this role where you are constantly confronted by your own (self-assigned?) ineligibility to be his partner? In order to have a quasi-partner standing in his life? Are you sure this doesn't harm you more than it helps you?

I may have a skewed view because, as currently being discussed on the Improving board, I have repeatedly chosen not to play that role in the life of my BPD guy, much as he would love it if I would. To me it feels self-abandoning and crappy to put someone at the center of my emotional life with the understanding that he will never really choose me as his partner. You obviously don't have to make my choices! But I miss the BPD guy in my life and can really relate to the reasons you think you need to allow this.  Would still really urge you to deeply consider whether it is beneficial to you to retain this role.

Going back to the point earlier in this thread where you did not want to see him and the new (messed up and temporarily happy) gf -- how would it feel to say "hey--I care about you a lot as you know; but the ambiguity around our role in each other's lives is proving a challenge for me. I really wish you well with this; at the same time I need to take a break. I'll let you know when and if this changes. Be well meanwhile."  Then take some time to really examine and consider whether this quasi-romantic caretaking role is consistent with taking care of yourself.

[foggydew]

Patientand clear, thanks for your very pertinent comments, which help me to sort things out in my mind.  No, I am not in therapy any more - I was until last January, when the background stability of my r/s allowed me to move on and become more independent. It was also never about him really, although T and I talked about it. Mostly it was about the problems I have of adjusting to life being a widow and retired.
Thinking carefully, and considering the whole of my relationship with him, I do not long for a romantic relationship with him. It is not possible because of his disorder and I know it, have done for years. Without the disorder, yes, I would have had a go at it - I'm not so bound by the ideas of society. But I know he can't cope on any level.
But I do long to get myself out of the personal emotional connection to him. I do want to be a more detached friend. I want it for me and I want it for him.
My ineligibility as a partner is not only self assigned, whatever he says. Although he does make sure that whoever he is with knows we have a past - I don't know why. Probably the same reason that he ensured I knew I was not the oldest person with whom he had been together. Creating confusion. Getting attention.
I have often told him I want him as family and that is it. And that is what I want. I want to get to the place I was with my schizophrenic stepson (now dead) where I was able to function as 'caretaker' and contact person. I don't want a romantic relationship with anyone. But I do need the 'family' feeling. The feeling of having some use and meaning and being able to think about silly little things in life 'ah, there's that chocolate, x would enjoy that'.
To do this I have to work on me. I have to be honest about where I am. Up to now I've pulled a smoke screen over it, but it's not going to get any better like that.

Friend can be really toxic, he seems to enjoy causing pain and confusion. He walked out on g/f and left her somewhere without transport. She called 11 times and he ignored it.  He woke me at 6.30 and texted 'visitors at 2' , so I thought HE was having visitors and I should keep out of the way. He sent me the photos yesterday. Last week he grabbed me and took a photo as if we were together and sent it to my stepdaughter, who has jealousy issues about him. (She has been an enormous problem for me too and I have to keep her at arms length, she can really hurt me). Why would anyone want to try to be emotionally close to this person?

Well, all my life it seems I've been dealing with this kind of stuff, and most of the time I was on top and could cope. That is where I want to be again. My mother was similar sometimes, my husband (but he was a NICE person), husband's children (only got to know them when they were 16) so it is a role I know.
Friend's family have more or less washed their hands of him (his mother told me she would be glad not to see him). His stepdad, who used to beat him, has no good word for him, and you can see the total rejection he had all his life which has made him into what he is now.
Ok, sorry, far to long.
I'm going to go down and spend the night there this week, tidy up a few odds and ends, see a couple of friends and then go away for a month. Travel and go back to my home area in my home country.
Patientand clear, I read a lot about your story and admire how you are dealing with it. You have your wonderful daughter, and you think about her and care for her.

[foggydew]

Have to laugh at myself. I write epistles about me and what I want... and leave one person out of the equation. It also depends on whether he accepts me in the contact/caretaker role, and if his relationship develops. I've had different answers from him about our contact ... 1) he's not sure 2) the relationship must change 3) I'm important to him. I have told him repeatedly that I'm a friend and friends support each other.

[Meili]

Well, yeah, I suppose that what he wants really should come into play at some point... .

I don't think that those three things (as presented at least) are actually in opposition to one another. All three can coexist at the same time.

[foggydew]

Well, we'll see something today - maybe what you say is accurate; Meili. I told him I would be spending the next 2 nights in the flat before I leave for 5 weeks. He wrote back... "that's ok". I don't know if he will be there or if I will see him. Just how he is.
What I don't understand is... partly I can feel happy for him if he has found a relationship that suits him... .and partly I feel as if I have been hit by a lorry. Even if I don't consciously think about it, spend time on it (or him). It just doesn't seem to go away.

[Meili]

I feel/felt the same way about my x. I love her and want her to be happy. If she is unhappy with me, then she should find her best chance at happiness. But, at the same time, I want her to be happy with me and it hurts me that she doing just that. The reason that we feel this way is because of how much we care about them.

It's natural to feel the pain though. It comes from a place of caring about another and mourning the loss of what we had. I know that this is trite, but grieving takes time. It is a process that we must go through. There are no short cuts, and the only way through it is through it. So, lean into your pain little by little. Let the feelings flow through you. Recognize and experience them. They will pass.

I hope that you enjoy your time at the flat and the connections that you made there!

[foggydew]

Thanks for that, Meili. It sounds as if you understand very well. I hope things work out the way you would like them too. You deserve it... but unfortunately, deserve has no authority.
I arrived at the flat and was well ignored, left him alone a while to recover from work, then met him with others in a cafe. He thawed gradually - starting with his back to me and gradually turning over the space of an hour. With alcohol. Back at the flat we were able to talk a bit, that I am still there in my family role (the really important bit for me) and that he thinks this relationship won't last so long. He was surprisingly self reflective. Makes a nice change. He's gone up to her flat now, and isn't sure if he'll be down again. Fine. I sent my greetings.
It's a start.

[Meili]

Thank you. Hopefully she'll think that I deserve it as well.

A start is always good!

Which relationship won't last? The one with the girl upstairs?

[foggydew]

I've seldom been so shocked. Because they were making a noise, I went up to the girlfriend's flat. There were 3 other people there, one woman and 2 men, besides the 'couple'. UBPD friend started to introduce then to me in a very intimate way... and also talked about girlfriend snoring. One man stormed out. Girlfriend screamed at UBPD friend that he had spoiled her chances. Ruined her life. Etc  etc. We all left. Friend told me lots about her, seeming distanced. Talked about finishen the relationship with her and finding a real one. After an hour of deliberation and commiseration, with me being supportive to him, she called and he went up. It's the sex, he said. He said he keeps his mind free and isn't in love. He doesn't see it as a lasting relationship. She uses men, he said. She wanted him to buy her a car, but he won't. He doesn't want to end up like her/them.
He is intelligent, they are alcoholic and ... ah, very simple people.
He said I have been everything to him, but he has to evolve.
So do I. For the hundreth time, this stuff makes me feel sick.

[Meili]

That all sounds very bizarre and uncomfortable! At this point, I feel compelled to ask what you are getting out of this relationship? More to the point, are you getting what you need?

[foggydew]

My First reactions was...
No. Not getting anything at all
But that cant be True otherwise  I would flee. Have to think this one over. But I do know that this is something existential for me.

[Meili]

Or, you might not flee because of the hope is still alive. Does that fit with you?

[foggydew]

Yes... .but not the usually hope. Sitting here in another country, alone again, I think I know. The hope of being important to someone I like and love, of being useful, of being included. Not of being romantically  involved. I cant and dont want to live like this... empty. And I have so tried.  He has been the only person who kept close contact.

[Meili]

I truly understand that empty feeling. I struggle with that myself. After so many years of putting others before myself, when there is no one there to care for, I feel empty and alone in the world. I'm learning to take those caring feelings and redirect them toward myself these days. It's hard to and very uncomfortable, but it is also liberating. Do you direct caring feelings toward yourself?

I also understand the feelings associated with him being the only person that has kept close contact. I have one of those people in my life right now who has been there for a while. She's a train wreck, but she's kept close contact with me so I keep talking to her. Funny thing is that at this point, I don't even feel needed by her because she dismisses everything I say when she asks me for advice. That's fine, it's her life, she doesn't have to take my advice, but she's now becoming a burden because she takes energy away from me. But, I still talk to her because she's there. Is that the kind of thing that you're talking about?

[lar, laris]

Wow, those are fundamental  existential things, foggy.  And you seem to know how to give them all while expecting little or nothing in return.  But, to (have to) do that for long stretches in "another country," well, that's a lot or even too much.  I can understand why you are on empty right now, and I'm so sorry to hear it. 

How are you doing today?   

lar, laris

[foggydew]

Thank you. Meili, Iaris. You helped a lot, validating me. It has been a tough time and I have learned a lot. So much that I need to stop this thread and start anew... still on this board... but with a new approach.