It's All But Over, Graduated To DV

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Just had an hour conversation with me ex.  I missed an earlier call,  but it was apparently she calling me to pick up the kids.  Her H asked.  "Why are you calling him?" She replied, "so the kids don't have to witness this." He eventually left,  and I talked to her much like I'd talk to someone in DV here.  Turkish Hat  

This is the first time is been exposed to the kids.  She was accusing him off something,  he lost it.  He went to get take out, and wouldn't let it go.  I remember how it felt to get accused of things. ... they got into an argument. The kids were in the living room.  He threw the change from the take out at her.  She's been paying the rent so it was probably her money.  

She said all of the controlling,  invalidating things which escalated it.  The kids came in.  Both of the "adults" wanted each to apologize to each other.  H was throwing the dishes down in the table angrily.  Ex told him to stop.  Escalation. He started mocking her.  The kids told him to stop.  He continued. She keep telling him to stop.  He kept doing it. She stepped up and punched him.  He threatened to call the cops (here I said that if he did he would have been justified). He left, after the kids told him to stop.  Freaking S6 and D4. I let her know that they had both violated the court order (not exposing the kids to conflict or violence).

She apologized to the kids after he left.  While I didn't excuse what she did,  I encouraged her to call a DV hotline.  It took dozens of minutes.  She finally shared with me that a couple of months ago that he told her that she couldn't divorce him,  that marriage was for life.  She finally said that a few minutes ago that when she said that,  he grabbed her and threw her on the couch.  "You're not divorcing me! " so up until the punching incident tonight,  it's been violent for a while.  

I encouraged her to not engage or change him (she's been in counseling and encouraged him to get some), but like here,  encouraged her to call a hotline.  I sent her the local YWCA number. She just texted back that she called them.  And that they told her the same things I said (she's in an abusive r/s), and also encouraged her to have a safety plan,  which is what I said.  

She texted me that she called them. I encouraged her to be safe.  She texted that her H just got home.  I said not to JADE (I know how she likes to control).

Going to bed soon.  Please pray for the safety of my kids. ... .I don't get them back officially until Friday.  

[Turkish]

Just had an hour conversation with me ex.  I missed an earlier call,  but it was apparently she calling me to pick up the kids.  Her H asked.  "Why are you calling him?" She replied, "so the kids don't have to witness this." He eventually left,  and I talked to her much like I'd talk to someone in DV here.  Turkish Hat  

This is the first time is been exposed to the kids.  She was accusing him off something,  he lost it.  He went to get take out, and wouldn't let it go.  I remember how it felt to get accused of things. ... they got into an argument. The kids were in the living room.  He threw the change from the take out at her.  She's been paying the rent so it was probably her money.  

She said all of the controlling,  invalidating things which escalated it.  The kids came in.  Both of the "adults" wanted each to apologize to each other.  H was throwing the dishes down in the table angrily.  Ex told him to stop.  Escalation. He started mocking her.  The kids told him to stop.  He continued. She keep telling him to stop.  He kept doing it. She stepped up and punched him.  He threatened to call the cops (here I said that if he did he would have been justified). He left, after the kids told him to stop.  Freaking S6 and D4. I let her know that they had both violated the court order (not exposing the kids to conflict or violence).

She apologized to the kids after he left.  While I didn't excuse what she did,  I encouraged her to call a DV hotline.  It took dozens of minutes.  She finally shared with me that a couple of months ago that he told her that she couldn't divorce him,  that marriage was for life.  She finally said that a few minutes ago that when she said that,  he grabbed her and threw her on the couch.  "You're not divorcing me! " so up until the punching incident tonight,  it's been violent for a while.  

I encouraged her to not engage or change him (she's been in counseling and encouraged him to get some), but like here,  encouraged her to call a hotline.  I sent her the local YWCA number. She just texted back that she called them.  And that they told her the same things I said (she's in an abusive r/s), and also encouraged her to have a safety plan,  which is what I said.  

She texted me that she called them. I encouraged her to be safe.  She texted that her H just got home.  I said not to JADE (I know how she likes to control).

Going to bed soon.  Please pray for the safety of my kids. ... .I don't get them back officially until Friday.  

[Moselle]

Turkish.

So sorry to hear this. You and your children are in my prayers.

Hang in there

[uniquename]

Sorry your kids are going through this trauma in your ex's new relationship. I'm confused though - wasn't she's the one who punched him and then he left as a result after threatening but not following through with calling the police? I believe you're saying you talked to BPDexW and gave her advice on leaving and DV. Seems like your falling into a rescuer pattern in the Drama triangle. Not a good place to be. I would have thought if you are getting involved at all (which probably is a bad idea on a personal level - keep it to offering to take the kids) you'd be telling the new man this. Get out while he can. Sorry if I'm not understanding.

[steelwork]

Sorry to hear all this, Turkish. Under the circumstances, I think you ought to be able to arrange with your ex to get the kids back early.

[flourdust]

I'm sorry your kids have to witness this. I have to agree with uniquename -- it's obvious where she's putting you on the Drama Triangle. I'd encourage you to focus on the safety of your kids and minimize your engagement with your ex on how she handles her relationship.

[Turkish]

You are all right. And in reading the Safety First document (which I obviously can't send to her because it has this site name all over it), I could give the same exact advice to him. We've seen this here with members: Someone "loses it" and strikes grabs or shoves the partner who may have been the initial physical aggressor. I've seen both men and women admit it.

This is obviously a mutually violent r/s. It's escalating. She's hidden it until now (him previously grabbing her and throwing her on the couch), and the kids are in the middle. I've always gleaned that he was a bit "off." As a friend of mine put it, "he wears his religion on his sleeve but not in his heart." The whole, "I'm not letting you divorce me," sounds cultish. I didn't get the "please rescue me" vibe from her, but rather a statement of facts. She knows the kids will say something to me, so she's being honest. This is why I don't accuse or be angry with her, keeping it business like. She admits things to me. It's data.

Stepping back a bit now... .

I'm going to text her soon when I know she is picking up the kids. "What's the plan to keep the kids safe? Do they need to stay with me tonight?" If she starts to deny, I may point out the court order again. I'm hesitant to call someone because that's the line from which there is no going back. I'm on the verge of doing so, however. They both escalated this. It's likely they also broke the law by exposing the kids to abuse (him throwing things, and she obviously hitting him). We have a T appointment for D4 tomorrow, too.

Frankly, I'm not interested in fixing them or her. So is all triangulation bad? My interest here is in finding a solution: keeping the kids safe. I know they're physically safe with her by herself, but not now with both of them.

KNOW GOOD VS BAD TRIANGULATION

Are you experiencing a lot of conflict in your relationship with very little resolution? Most likely you are stuck in what Steven Karpman M.D. calls a drama triangle (or Karpman Triangle).

Simply put, when someone finds themselves in conflict with another person they will reach out to a third person. The resulting triangle (e.g., three-person exchange) is more comfortable as the tension is shifted around three people instead of just two.

Triangulation is widely recognized as a stabilizing factor in a family, at work, among social groups, etc. We all engage in triangulation because triangles help us cope when we are struggling with another person.

We all do this. Triangles often help us cope when we are struggling with another person. Triangulation can be a very stabilizing factor in a family. However, "bad triangulation" (i.e., pathological triangulation) can cause more turmoil in a relationship, polarizing communications and causing conflict to escalate.

Karpman observed that in conflict and drama, there is "good guy vs bad guy" thinking. He also observed that the participants become drawn in, even seduced, by the energy that the drama generates. The drama obscures the real issues. Confusion and upset escalates. Solutions are no longer the focus.

If my goal is to make sure the kids are safe (it's entirely valid to be the Rescuer for my children), then what's the best way to do it?

Thinking about triangulating the T  

[Turkish]

Ball's in her court now. She said she caller her T and the T told her to not approach him or engage when he got home tonight. I'm really surprised that the T didn't take this more seriously, but she said that she described what happened. She said that D4 really needed her right now. I said that our daughter may be in the emotional role of Rescuer, which is unhealthy. She kind of agreed with me. My Ex did agree to take her H's name off of the authorized pick-up persons for both schools. The T said that they both would benefit from discussing this in couples' therapy, and that H needed his own T, too. We'll see how far that goes. I know the tendency of our HMO is to shuttle patients into encounter groups.

I kept indicating that this situation still sounded unstable, and she kept saying, "I know him. His number one fear is going to jail, and he won't do anything to make that happen." I said that they were both reacting overly emotional in the heat of the moment, and logic flew out the window. Sounds like it takes him a lot longer to cool down. She repeated it. I said that based upon what she told me, him throwing something at her, and also the previous incident of grabbing her and tossing her onto the couch, those were clear acts of DV, and she could have called the cops then. "So you keep saying that you know him, but you've said that he's already put himself at risk." I also said that I predicted this three years ago. It wasn't to say "I told you so," but to point out that I saw that he was unstable just from his social media posts without ever having met him, so others see things from the outside that she isn't willing to.  

I also said that in a case where they both lost their cool, if the kids are there, either kid might be likely to rush in to "rescue" and how is it going to go when a child gets an elbow or a knee to the head. I still feel like I need to call someone, but it's with trepidation that I'm leaving it as is right now. I'm going to talk to the kids on my own and leave her out of that equation. It would be a good idea to teach S6 how to make an emergency call if needed.

I'm torn between calling someone myself to get advice, or just trusting this for now. If I escalate, she'll stop feeding me info. I'll try to have a relaxing night and I'll have the kids 24 hours from now for the weekend.

Interestingly, I was cleaning out the closet not hours before her first call and I found one of her bags. It had a copy of the RO she got against the bf before me. Toss it all or give it back?  I've tossed a lot (shredding personal info like old canceled paystubs that she kept which had her SSN).

[Mutt]

Hi Turk,

Wow. I'm sorry that you're kids are going through this. I'll pray for them.

I'm torn between calling someone myself to get advice, or just trusting this for now.

It's not going to hurt if you call someone for advice, you may get advice about something that you're not seeing on your own.

[Turkish]

Earlier,  I had entertained the thought of slipping the T a note tomorrow,  "ask D4 about the dinner and [husband's name] see what she says. " My boss thought it a good idea.  My other coworker and friend  (who was married to a pwBPD) thought it a bad idea,  involving the kids,  though I argued that they were already included.  He gave me pause... .bad triangulation? 

My ex texted me a while ago,  that her H got home and was acting like everything was OK,  and she told me not to worry.  I don't think I'm seeing this Objectively enough.  I didn't even respond. Due to the school schedule and both of us being miles away from the school,  she's picking up our son early,  so he'll be with us at his sister's appointment tomorrow in the early afternoon.  I'll just take custody of both kids from there for the weekend. Our son being there while his sister is in the office with the T is good.  It will be a boundary keeping us from talking about things.  I do see what some of you are saying here of me stepping in to rescue dysfunctionally.
 

[Lilyroze]

  Turkish,

Sorry your kids had to see this or you had to hear about it. Prayer for all concerned, including ex's safety. 

Hope the weekend goes fun and peaceful for you and the kids.

[myself]

Mixed messages for sure. "There's a problem here... .Don't worry about it."

Sometimes rescuing triangles include helping sweep it under the rug triangles.

What is a good way to approach discussing this situation with your kids?

[Mutt]

I had entertained the thought of slipping the T a note tomorrow,  "ask D4 about the dinner and [husband's name] see what she says. "

I don't know about that. You already know the answer, things are not stable at mom's house. It would only re-assure you, the question could be uncomfortable for D4 to answer. D4 may also show loyalty to mom to the T?

[Turkish]

In short, she turned herself in.

After D4's time, we were called in by ourselves. My Ex had asked me if she thought if she should share what happened with the T. Here is an interesting thing which reveals things about both of us. One, I always felt that I was her Jimney Cricket, like her conscience. She often was at a loss of what to do. Two, it reveals about me that I am still going into unhealthy Rescuer mode. I gave a... ."maybe" when the bear on my shoulder (Conan O'Brien reference there) was yelling, "She's going to admit it!"

After we were talking about the behaviors with the T, she started segueing about her temper, and how she often started to lose control in front of the kids and she didn't like that. Then she paused and told the story, exactly as she told me. I made only two comments "was that the point at which you called me?" When he grabbed her phone away. She sniffled a little, and was saying that she wanted help and didn't want to repeat the dynamic she grew up in, not to pass it on. D4 came in to ask mommy to take her the bathroom. I took our D and left. At a few points, I was going to ask if they wanted me to leave the room. I think partially my Ex wanted me there for support. Or it could also be that she is at the point of being sick of hiding secrets.

I came back and knocked. They told me that they needed a few more minutes (here I was kind of clueless as I should have known).

I told her on the way out that I was glad that she did the right thing. Saying "I'm proud of you" is condescending, but I am. The T suggested that the kids stay with me longer until it's clear that the situation there isn't volatile. That's what I suggested yesterday morning, but my Ex demurred. She's going to talk to her H tonight. She needed to hear if from a T. If it's unclear Monday what's going on, the kids may stay with me. It's not like she won't see them as she will see them during the day.

She has a safety plan (he needs one, too, but I'm not going to say that). Two of her closest friends now know what's going on. No one in her family does. She showed me the bruise on her hand and said that the boxing came in handy (before kids, I had her take classes with me and we'd spar a little... .glove on glove sparring, no face or body contact). I said dryly, "so you put your hip into it?" She said yes.

This incident is, of course, reportable. The T is going to call CPS. She told me Ex this, and she's ok with whatever needs to be done to help her and the kids. So a year after being free from CPS after the molestation incident with D4, here we go again, into the system. I took the kids home and will try to enjoy the weekend with them.

[Mutt]

One, I always felt that I was her Jimney Cricket, like her conscience. She often was at a loss of what to do

I think that she trusts your judgment. Its unfortunate that you're going into the system again at least it's not hidden behind closed doors for years. Enjoy your weekend with the kids  

[Turkish]

She called me to update: The T called her back and said after discussing the situation with other team members, that she wasn't going to call CPS. It's viewed that my Ex is doing the right thing: she's taking responsibility, she's in therapy, both kids are in therapy, and we are all taking parenting classes. The kids are in classes concurrently with other kids... .truthfully, D4 is the healthiest kid in that room. 

One of the kids stood in the corner and was kicking the wall for 20 mins. We could hear it across the hall). My Ex also thanked me at the end for providing guidance. I think it was my DV discussion the other night and encouraging her to call the hotline, who told her the same things I did.

[Moselle]

Brilliant,

Well done Turkish |iii

Are you enjoying your weekend with the children ?

[Turkish]

Yep. It's 5x5 here at Turkish House. I get to watch them for a day next weekend too since she has a function.

[Waifed]

Sorry your kids are having to go through all this. Fortunately they have stability in their lives through their relationship with you. I remember when you first began posting and admired your integrity and levelheadedness yet hoped you'd give her a good what for! Now that I've long since left the fog, and dealt with the "issues" that got me into my situation, I have even a greater respect for the way you've carried yourself through all that life has shown you. Keep fighting the good fight. Your youngsters will follow in your footsteps!

[Turkish]

I knew something like this would happen,  and I told her when she was still here.  Ditto for 1.5 years ago when she announced her engagement (online while overseas). She smirked,  though she did kind of consider what I said about him hiring her when she became herself and got into her verbal "routine." Little did iknow that she would throw the first punch.  I know exactly what triggered him.

So how do I feel?  Truthfully,  it's an empty validation. Leaving aside his previous grabbing of her,  it confirms what research I found that we posted in the DV thread here last year,  that 70% of non-reciprocal DV is done by females.  I still think she's in the greater danger due to his oddness. She seems like she let the fantasy go almost a year ago.  I don't think he will. 

I forgot to mention something D4 said during the incident,  "H is throwing a tantrum just like the kids in my preschool." Her mom validated that as if he weren't in the room.  Wrong thing to do.  This was just before she lost it chose violence.

It's actually good that she's kept this from her family,  at least for now.  I can imagine a couple of them might say "he deserved it" or something similarly stupid, validating violence  She still deals with pressure from them to smack our kids when they misbehave.  A lot of that,  and all of this,  is cultural inertia,  hard to overcome. 

[Larmoyant]

Leaving aside his previous grabbing of her,  it confirms what research I found that we posted in the DV thread here last year,  that 70% of non-reciprocal DV is done by females.

Hi Turkish, can you please explain what you mean here?

[Turkish]

Leaving aside his previous grabbing of her,  it confirms what research I found that we posted in the DV thread here last year,  that 70% of non-reciprocal DV is done by females.

Hi Turkish, can you please explain what you mean here?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240171.msg12556759#msg12556759

I noticed that the Wikipedia article on DV references these studies.  I was slapped on the leg once when I was lying on the bed.  She was frustrated with me.  I was lying face down reading and it took me a moment to realize what happened,  especially with the repeated communication of her r/s "deal breakers" (cheating or beating). I jumped up and asked her,  "did you just hit me?" Dissociated look in her eyes,  "Noo." I still don't think of that as DV, but if I reverse the sexes, it clearly is. 

That being said,  women are more at risk for severe violence. The stats bear this out.  Her H is almost as big as me (plus being 20 years younger and in much better shape), and though a punch she threw hard enough to leave a bruise is nothing to minimize, he could do so much more damage. 

A year ago,  he asked me how to handle the kids.  He said that sometimes they were so frustrating... .and kind of clenched himself.  He saw me giving him a look,  and said that he used to have major anger issues when he was a kid,   "but I'm no longer like that!" Grin.  Smile. 

[Larmoyant]

Whoa, the thought of him losing his temper in front of your kids must be difficult. I feel for you.Two volatile people to try to deal with. Also, I’d consider it DV if someone hits you regardless of their gender. She had no right to lay her hands on you frustrated or not.

I experienced a little of this in my relationship. When I refused to give him my bag once he pushed me between two car seats and I was severely bruised. I won't go into the emotion of it save to say I was distraught. But once, it was my fault as I pushed him away from me (he was in my face) and he pushed me so hard down the hallway I hit the wall. I've always felt guilty about this though because I'd pushed him first. I never want to experience anything like it again.

[Turkish]

I'm sorry that you went through that Larmoyant. Sadly, DV seems to be something we'll never stop discussing.  Not only reading the experiences of members here,  but thinking of my Ex's FOO and their violence,  hiding is enabling.  The penultimate time (at least this stands out) my BPD mother struck me was when I was 15. She went to slap me,  I grabbed her arm.  She went to slap me with her other hand and I grabbed that arm.  Then she tried to kick me.  I ran out of the cabin, bounding down the stairs,  and she threw a utility flashlight at me.  It was one of those from the '80s with 6 D batteries,  halogen light,  flasher,  and two florescent cells.  Being a ninja (this was the 80s, I was a ninja  I dodged it.  The light broke all over the ground.  She raged harder.  I ran off into the woods and didn't come back until nightfall. 

Maybe I triggered her as you did your ex?  Maybe.  Does that make violence excusable? No.

[uniquename]

Turkish,
You handled it great at the T. Sorry again your kids are going through this and it must be so hard on you to know the bad choices your ex is making without being able to fix it.

Two things:
1) are you still keeping the kids longer as T said while you wait for things to become less volatile at ex's house?
2) what do you think of T's decision not to call CPS? Is it avoiding a natural consequence of her actions?

[Turkish]

I'll know by tomorrow whether or not I'm going to keep the kids longer.

It's interesting that you use the term "natural consequences." In the parenting classes, we've been discussing "natural" vs. "logical" consequences. Honestly, it was a bit nerve-wracking to have CPS involved last year over the molestation incident. I received a not so veiled threat that they would take the kids from us if they perceived we weren't keeping them safe. This is a large organization, but the children's mental health clinic is small, and we've been in there a lot. I'm glad that a lot of people are keeping an eye on this now, and that more of the truth has come out.

[Turkish]

We talked to the T earlier this week after the class.  My ex told her that he saw his  T, and had returned the next night acting like everything was OK.  I said,  "but he grabbed you and threw you on the couch on a previous occasion. " She said yes,  and the T said,  "so there's a pattern here."

I talked more to my ex in the parking lot. Our insurance doesn't offer couples counseling.  She said that they would get some even out of pocket,  but that she was young to talk to the church to ask if they offered it (is know they do,  it's a mega church, and her H wanted to get it before they got married,  but she never did).

I asked if she had stressed to him how close CPS was to getting involved and she said that she did,  telling him,  "I'll do anything to keep my kids safe." I pointed out to her that while this was technically true,  he was their step dad and that language like that was inflammatory. She said that he had said before,  "when I married you those became my kids too." I said that while that may go a little far in the other direction,  it's true.  I know that her possessiveness, language and tone is hurtful and invalidating.  It doesn't matter how he got into the r/s. He's their step dad.  Fact. 

I did slip the T my business card,  flipping it to show her my note that said "call me,  there's more going on. " She called me two days later.  I started off by saying that I want sure how rules of confidentiality worked,  and that I felt in an awkward position.  She replied that she was glad that I brought that up,  but in situations like this,  she wants everything out in the open.  I said that I didn't want to get into the "triangulate the therapist" role, but that there was more going on.  I knew that my time on the phone was limited,  too.

I told her that my ex went to court to get a RO against her BIL, and that her H was cuffed and beaten down by the cops last month.  I also said that the kids mentioned her disparaging him in front of them,  and that concerned me.  I was also worried about the kids getting hurt if they charged into a DV situation in the future (the night after I talked to the T, the kids told me that they hit her H and spit at him during the incident... .I tried coaching them not to do that).

The T said that they could work with the kids about safety issues,  but that they didn't offer services related to other things,  and that I needed to take it to family court if needed. 

This morning,  I got the kids early in the am so she and her H could go to an event for their business.  She watched her 2 year old nephew last night,  a sleepover. I know she hasn't told her family any of this.  I see this as a major lapse in judgement, bringing a toddler into a home where DV was only 8 days past.  If I were a parent who knew about this,  there is no way in hell I'd let my toddler sleep over.

I dropped our kids over to her sister this afternoon.  I didn't say a word.  This is how people get hurt,  abuse being hidden.  I'm debating mentioning this lapse in judgement in front of the T in a few days when she checks in with us after the class. 

I left a message with my T for an appointment.  I'm going to ask if it's reportable given that multiple therapists from our health provider are aware. ... without giving details which might require him to report. I known darn well that if I had called him the next day when my ex told me,  I would have had to report it. 

The r/so dynamic is the same.  Major drama, and a lull until the next time.  Growing up with a BPD mother,  I tend to minimize things that shouldn't be.  It's a survival mechanism.  It's hard to see what the correct path is here,  other than waiting for the next incident involving the kids. 

[Turkish]

I met with the kids' step-dad today.  One of my friends said that he was surprised that he wanted to meet with me.  I said that he didn't have a choice.  I talked to a friend at work this week,  and she said that her brother knew about DV in the other home and didn't take action.  Their son ended up in foster care for a time until things were resolved. 

In short,  I did tell this guy that it came very close to the kids being removed from the home for a while if the T had reported it. I said that even if his wife was primarily to blame,  she'd blame him.  I communicated that this wasn't a "3 strikes" situation. I told him that I told her,  "if I have to get involved,  no one will like it.  Family Court." It can't happen again. 

Surprisingly,  or maybe not so,  he took the blame,  easing saying he was "old school"  While in a way I admire that for a guy in his mid 20s, I launched into my spiel about DV, specifically about DV and men.  I validated his feelings that he knew that he escalated when he should have walked away.  I told him the facts,  and encouraged him to search DV resources and get his own safety plan.  He had a notebook with him,  and he wrote it down.  Gone was his happy face. He got serious and stared away for a while. 

I told him what I had observed,  her treatment of him the three times I've seen them together in the past year.  I said that the kids had told me a few things about her belittling of him.  I said that it wasn't healthy.  He said that he tires to back down for their sake.  I said while that was good to avoid conflict at the moment,  is also showing the kids an unhealthy dynamic. 

I said that I knew what triggered him.  That everything could be fine,  and suddenly it was like a switch was thrown in her brain.  His eyes lit up,  "it's exactly like that! " I mentioned validating her feelings,  and it seemed like he knew about that. I said nothing more. The last thing I need is him finding this place and me going deep cover.

I did mention that I thought her a "high risk parent." He asked what I meant,  and I explained emotionally for the kids. Another  and he said,  "I think I see what you mean."

We ended the meeting.  I observed that he felt relieved.  My intent wasn't to help them in the r/s though I did toss him a few bones.  I didn't go "therapist" add mine suggested I could do,  but let it organically evolve.  He wants to meet again,  "you have my number now." My new BFF? Next time at the shooting range to show I'm good arty head shots? That might be funny. 

I'm not up to really meeting him to be buddy -buddy, but it's an option. 

13.5 more years and I'm done with her.  I know that to a certain extent that it's a fantasy,  but it's a goal.