Psychological Evaluation vs. GAL?

[justaboutdone]

I wanted to ask what other members opinions are of whether I should pursue a psychological evaluation or just work with a GAL?  Just to get caught up on my particular situation, we divorced a year ago and are back in court because neither are happy with our co-parenting situation.  The GAL we hired recommended me custody if we could not work out shared parenting.  All the behavior that the GAL recommended should stop, didn't stop after the final divorce.  I think the GAL will find favor in me but would a psychological evaluation have more of a lasting impact or other benefits so that I can avoid going back to court in the near future?  Somehow, my ex thinks that her good behavior in the last month is all that the court will hear and remember.  Thank you.

[ForeverDad]

Unless I'm misunderstanding what a psychological evaluation refers to in your area, I believe the question should be "GAL or custody evaluation?"  In many areas a psych eval is just a mental evaluation and doesn't include the effects or impacts as applied to the relationships either between the parents or between the parents and children.  A custody evaluation does look deeper and makes a more thorough recommendation including parenting time and custody aspects.

It sounds like you would benefit from both.

The Guardian ad Litem already made a recommendation and so the GAL could return to update the prior recommendation.  It would carry a lot of weight since it's the child's attorney, not one of the parents' attorneys who have obligations to their respective clients.  This specific GAL would be best to use again since you've already seen he or she has a clear grasp on the reality and not easily manipulated or conned.

A good, reputable Custody Evaluator may also help since that person should be experienced enough to include facts and not just the presumptions from yesteryear that Mother are always the better parents (such as the outdated Tender Years Doctrine).  That's why you need to research the reputation of the CEs, don't pick the cheapest, select from among those with the more solid reputations.

The GAL we hired recommended me custody if we could not work out shared parenting.

This carries a lot of weight.  And is very similar to what my custody evaluator wrote in his initial report:

It's been said here that judges too often assume that if there is bickering and conflict then it must be the fault of both parents.  And another risk, as you've experienced, is that the misbehaving parent is able to con the professionals initially and their claims are seen as too 'emotionally compelling' and that overwhelms the facts.
<br/>:)epending on what 'psych eval' means in your court, it may be too little and, in a way, barking up the wrong tree.  What would it mean if he is diagnosed as BPD or some other PD?  (Sounds like he could have some some of the other Cluster B traits, Narcissistic, Histrionic, etc.)  What would court do about a report?  I ask because courts deal with people as they are, doing very little to change them.  Maybe a few Anger Management classes but that's about it.

For example, what if he were an alcoholic?  It means little in court, for all you know the judge could even have a weakness on that score.  The key issue is:  How does that affect the issue at hand?  And the issue at hand is partly about getting the divorce done but long term mostly about the custody and parenting.  Him having been diagnosed might mean something to the court, but probably not much.  What would be more important would be his behaviors.  If he actually drove while intoxicated, had DUI citations or convictions or gasp did so with the children in the vehicle, then that would be vastly more 'actionable' by the court (and perhaps the children's agencies as well).

So the key is... .how do his behaviors affect others?  In divorce, the courts look at the adult behaviors to some extent but give much more attention to the parenting behaviors.  Keep that in mind every time you go to court, see an evaluator, etc, report it all (as time allows) but give more weight to to how the children are affected.

Sadly, court often doesn't see the parenting issue very easily.  Since children can be manipulated or pressured for an event, an interview with a judge can be iffy.  While my son did see a court social worker early on when he was about 4 years old in 2006, it wasn't until he was 11 in 2013 than my ex got him an 'in camera' interview before the magistrate - his Guardian ad Litem (GAL) was there too.

While a typical psych eval can point the professionals in the right direction, it is a custody evaluation - a solid evaluation by a very experienced, reputable and perceptive evaluator - which has the most impact.  (Be forewarned, an easily conned, biased or inexperienced custody evaluator can derail your case.  So when choosing a CE, get the best you can.)  Perhaps your focus needs to shift to a type of evaluation that can more directly impact the long term for both you and your parenting?

[ForeverDad]

My quote got truncated... .

... .too often psych evals are a couple tests and a short interview, mine was conducted by a grad student from a local university and it said I suffered from anxiety.  Yeah, no kidding, I could have told anyone that!  Both of us were ordered to take them and the results were ordered to be made available to both lawyers but I never heard whether my then-spouse ever took hers.  (Lesson: Don't hand over anything if you're expecting something similar in return, say "We're ready to EXCHANGE the ordered information."  In other words, don't give away information or your leverage for compliance.)

Later, after I filed for divorce, after mediation failed and after the court's parenting investigation recommended I get more time than the alternate weekends the magistrate had orders (never changed during the 23 month divorce) finally a custody evaluation was ordered.  It included a psych eval such as a few tests but went further and assessed what should be done about custody of my preschooler.

I had a custody evaluator, a very perceptive one, a child psychologist, and he noted the blocking behaviors of my ex and the entire report could have been summarized in these three sentences: "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... .  Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody... .  If Shared Parenting is tried and fails then father should get custody... ."

However, it wasn't easy.  Like you, I had allegations made against me, each one getting worse to the point of facing a risk of wearing an orange jumpsuit for years.  Fortunately I was never arrested, but I was the focus of multiple CPS cases over the years.

As happened with me, that the initial attempt failed and so I went back to get a better order, then you too should not feel any guilt for going back to court and getting yourself a better order.

[Thunderstruck]

I might be a bad person to ask, because we initiated a CE exactly two years ago and have yet to receive the final report. 

Sometimes I think a parenting coordinator would really help in our situation. Have you considered using one of those?

[livednlearned]

Hi justaboutdone,

I read back through your posts and it sounds like there is a lot of documentation already on the table about your ex being very dysregulated and abusive. She has been charged with DV, reported to CPS 4 times, and investigated twice. Plus, the kids' therapist wants you to have custody, and the GAL is saying the same.

Third-party testimony goes a long way in court because it helps the judge remain neutral -- he or she is considered the "supreme" witness in court, and so prefers that someone expert in child welfare make recommendations. The key for us is to find someone reputable, it often matters less who it is and more that they are competent and ethical, in my experience.

If you are concerned, maybe ask to file a separate motion requesting a psychological evaluation when you appear in court. If the judge wavers at all based on the GAL's recommendation, you at least have a motion on the table to go to plan B if necessary. Judges seem to like kicking the stone down the road. 

If you are concerned that your ex will hire her own expert to counter the GAL, you may have to change your tactic and insist on a psych eval. In my case, there was enough documentation/evidence to point to the problem parent, enough so that the judge was content to have only one parent undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Many people here recommend getting a full-blown custody evaluation in which both parents are subjected to the evaluation process. It's expensive and it brings in the potential for another wild card, someone who could be persuaded to see mom in a sympathetic light.

I feel strongly that the industry of therapeutic jurisprudence that surrounds our cases can be a weapon for good or bad, depending on who you hire. Whatever you do, get ahead of the train. Give your ex the option to choose from the three best people you select. Make sure the people you select are the best in the business and have competent, ethical reputations. The ethical part is critical.

I wish the best for you.

LnL

[justaboutdone]

Hi justaboutdone,

I read back through your posts and it sounds like there is a lot of documentation already on the table about your ex being very dysregulated and abusive. She has been charged with DV, reported to CPS 4 times, and investigated twice. Plus, the kids' therapist wants you to have custody, and the GAL is saying the same.

Wow! I am super impressed! Yes, that is my situation in a nutshell. I feel very confident that the GAL will not award mom custody. Two of the CPS reportings came within the last year after the divorce. I have audio documentation and text message that if I submit to court for the judge to see, will absolutely not recommend her custody. But, the GAL only gets to see the facts and doesn't look into the mental health of the other parent. I feel that if a psychologist was involved, they would have a much harsher recommendation than the GAL and really understand better how sick the other parent is. But, i guess my question and the reason i posted this thread, would that do me any good? I mean if you're already awarded custody, what more can the court do?  Personally, I would even like supervised visitation until she can stop undermining and manipulating the kids brains to hate me. It's horrible the things she tells the kids about me. The things i have read about PAS is that it causes lifelong behavioral changes in the kids. But I know the GAL won't go that far with her recommendation. Thank you for all the great replies.

[livednlearned]

Courts care about behaviors. Especially patterns of behaviors that are documented.

You bring up an important point. Even if you get full custody, visitation is still on the table, and this is where a lot of damage gets done.

It sounds like one of your kids is enmeshed with mom, and you want to supervise visitation so that the parental alienation gets nipped. Your child may also carry the same sensitive genotype -- these are kids who are emotionally vulnerable and are much more susceptible to invalidating environments. If they don't develop BPD, they end up with other diagnoses that can be difficult to treat when one parent is disordered and engaged in alienation.

If that is your greatest concern, and you want supervised visitation but don't think the GAL will go far enough, then by all means ask for a forensic psychiatric evaluation. Insist on it being the MMPI-2 and that a trained psychiatrist does the eval. Look for 3 and let the other side choose which one. Be clear about the time frame for when it needs to get done, and request supervised visitation with a trained child psychologist while you wait for the results.

In other words, get as much leverage as you can in your motions. Get it in writing. And have clear consequences for non-compliance. For example, mom needs to get the eval done within 30 days. You and kids do counseling together, they get individual counseling, and mom does counseling with the kids. Shine a big bright light on everything, and show the court you are willing to get professionals involved to help your kid. If your child is experiencing behavioral problems at school, document everything and bring that into court as well.

I know this is all expensive and that's a very real issue for us. It also does not get better, it gets harder, and our kids have a very short window in which we can exert a healthy influence. If you have the option to raise the stakes a notch in court, do it now if you can. These are big ships and it takes a lot of effort to change course. When we crank the wheel, we have to get all our body weight behind it. The key is to do it smartly and not waste resources.

We can help you with that.

LnL

[ForeverDad]

During a divorce the court is not very willing to take sides and call it like it is.  Evidently they figure the parents are naturally emotional and have hopes the parents will have a kumbaya moment eventually and drop the conflict.  However, after the final decree, continuing conflict is increasingly frowned upon.  Contempt of Court motions are taken more seriously.  Judges can get peeved at the repeat visits and continuances.

Be sure to be the parent with Solutions in hand and not just complaints, excuses or blame-shifting.

[Mikeyboy]

I feel the GAL has been the most important aspect of my divorce so far. She is extremely interested in my wifes pattern of behavior and my stepson. She seems very thorough and writes EVERYTHING down.

[justaboutdone]

Be sure to be the parent with Solutions in hand and not just complaints, excuses or blame-shifting.

Thank you everyone for your responses.  I actually read it a couple weeks ago when you posted it and I apologize for the delay getting back on the board to give a response.  All the points are excellent and very valid and I think the "solutions" to this problem is what I am having the most difficulty answering.  Because of my job, I travel up to a total of 14 days.  Of the 14 days, usually the business trips are broken up into 3 or 4 trips.  It is easily the biggest problem I have in this puzzle.  The easy choice would be to switch to a job that allows me to be home but it is not an option.  Just wondering if anyone could help share some solutions.

[sanemom]

So I posted a reply a while back, and I see it is gone. 

I asked if you are talking 14 days a month or 14 days a year?

AND... .is a live-in nanny a possibility?  You may have to start thinking outside the box.

[justaboutdone]

So I posted a reply a while back, and I see it is gone. 

I asked if you are talking 14 days a month or 14 days a year?

AND... .is a live-in nanny a possibility?  You may have to start thinking outside the box.

14 days a month.

Just an update... .I met with the GAL and gave her a synopsis of the last year since her involvement. I told her that I wasnt prepared with all my evidence yet but she still wanted to meet. The only evidence I did provide was the two incidents that resulted in her being reported to CPS by the child therapist. Her response to this was she said that was horrifying. We talked for about two hours but I really don't think she needs to hear any more evidence. The part that is just as concerning to me about my ex is her PAS with our kids. 

[Nope]

If the GAL uses a word like horrifying then you are in pretty good shape to get what the kids need. I would still get every last bit of evidence together and prepared. You will only have one shot to get any of it on record, as courts generally won't look at anything that happened prior to the most recent hearing, so if you try and bring it up at a later hearing it would likely get thrown out. Also, there is no such thing as too much evidence. If three things out of ten get thrown out you still have a very good case. If three things out of four get thrown out you will have a harder time.

[justaboutdone]

If the GAL uses a word like horrifying then you are in pretty good shape to get what the kids need. I would still get every last bit of evidence together and prepared. You will only have one shot to get any of it on record, as courts generally won't look at anything that happened prior to the most recent hearing, so if you try and bring it up at a later hearing it would likely get thrown out. Also, there is no such thing as too much evidence. If three things out of ten get thrown out you still have a very good case. If three things out of four get thrown out you will have a harder time.

Excellent point! I will follow up with her! I was also thinking of all the PAS damage that she has caused. In so many different situations, the kids react to protect or support their relationship with mom. A perfect example is this morning.  My D8 refuses to talk to me at mom's because she says that she doesn't like talking on the phone even though she will always talk to mom on the phone at my place. This morning, the kids are at a babysitter and I called my daughter and we just had a perfectly normal and long conversation on the phone. How does this damage get undone?

[justaboutdone]

So I feel a little stuck on my thoughts... .

The GAL told my lawyer recently that if I didn't travel for work then my case would be easy.  If my lawyer and I read between the lines in that statement, she would be telling us that she would recommend me custody.  This is based off my one visit with the GAL a year after the divorce was finalized and me stating that co-parenting isn't working and the two CPS reports.  I think I told the GAL that my ex's anger is worse than anyone I have ever met, I never really quantified that objectively with evidence.  I have lots of evidence but to go through it all, even overwhelms me from this last year.  I feel like a psyche eval would show that we can't co-parent and she can barely parent.  But the GAL has said in last year's report that she doesn't feel like the kids should be with a nanny if Dad is not available to parent.  So, I know our co-parenting is very bad when she for example... .constantly puts the kids between us or the PAS.  But I really feel the GAL has hopes for her if she just stops her behavior.  If I understand BPD right, this behavior won't stop and eventually the court will make any recommendation they can to prevent the kids from being in her unhealthy environment.  I feel like right now the can is going to be kicked down the street.  Anyhow, I'm no expert on personality disorder or the unhealthy effects on the kids from it.  I really wish we could co-parent.  Anyhow, I'm passing off my thoughts to this board for any response I can get.  Sorry for all the words but trying to be transparent as possible with my situation so I can get good advice.  Thank you for any of your thoughts.

[Thunderstruck]

How often do you travel? Is it a regular schedule? Can you find a job that doesn't require travel?

[justaboutdone]

How often do you travel? Is it a regular schedule? Can you find a job that doesn't require travel?

10 to 14 days month. Traveling is kind of my career unfortunately. I have family nearby but we would have to move and switch schools to be close enough to them.

[Nope]

10 to 14 days month. Traveling is kind of my career unfortunately. I have family nearby but we would have to move and switch schools to be close enough to them.

Then, in this case, it's probably appropriate to move and switch schools so you have a support network for yourself and child. If you could buy a house close by your family that would be a good indication to the court that this would be your only move and stability could be expected going forward. It's your best chance if you can walk in having a plan you can outline for child care. Perhaps this is something you can run by the GAL?

[ForeverDad]

Courts generally prefer hearing proposed solutions, not problems and complaints.  Be the problem solver.  Court may not seem to notice at first, but eventually you'll build a reputation for having practical solutions and focused on what's overall best for your children.

Courts and the professionals do not want revolving door cases that keep coming back year after year until the children age out of the system.  They may not agree to all of your optimal solutions at first but hopefully they'll get there sooner rather than later.

[livednlearned]

This is so tough:

My D8 refuses to talk to me at mom's because she says that she doesn't like talking on the phone even though she will always talk to mom on the phone at my place. This morning, the kids are at a babysitter and I called my daughter and we just had a perfectly normal and long conversation on the phone. How does this damage get undone?

She won't talk to you when at mom's because she likely gets grilled after the call, and called on by her mom to malign you. The loyalty bind must be excruciating for D8. Choosing to not talk to you while at moms may be a sign that she is protecting herself, and you. It could be that she (wisely) assesses the risk of talking to you and chooses to endure her mom instead of stand up for herself. Which, to be honest, a lot of us did as adults.

When D8 is with you, she knows it is ok to call her mom. And she probably knows, if she doesn't, she will be punished in some way when she returns home. Hearing her mom say bad things about you is a form of punishment.

BPD parents have a merger thing going on, where they need to feel the child is merged with them. If the child is supposed to be merged with mom, and mom rejects you, then child must reject you too. If I understand it correctly, pwBPD experienced a failure to individuate and have no idea that it's even a thing. So, as parents, they do a terrible job letting their own kids individuate, have their own likes, desires, preferences, needs, etc. And worse, pwBPD cannot reflect on nor tolerate their own bad actions, so they externalize them onto the closest person, which is you. Her bad behaviors are then placed on you so she can process them safely from a distance and avoid the debilitating shame of her own actions.

So confusing for kids.

What have you said to D8 about the situation?

[justaboutdone]

Livednlearned,

I just ask her why she doesn't want to talk to me? She will almost always respond that she doesn't like to talk on the phone. Her twin brother even backed her up with this statement. It happens everytime and I don't push her hard because I know why she won't. It's extremely obvious to me that she will always talk to mommy at my place but never me at mom's house and when mom is there. So 95% of the time I just don't plan to talk to her when she is with mom. There is also a huge problem that when 80% of the time I call and talk to the kids, mom walks in the room within the first 5 minutes of me calling and tells the kids that they have to hang up because they have to shower, brush their teeth, do homework, eat, getting ready to start a movie, they're busy, etc... .I have a hundred examples of this and so many other ridiculous behaviors documented or recorded that I don't even know how to put it together for the gal. Their is actually so many other bad behaviors that I haven't gotten near to the point of bringing this up. I am pushing the GAL for the psychological report because like you mentioned, this is very hard on the daughter, and son for that matter, with all of her crazy behaviors.  I'm no expert but I would really like to hear from an expert psychologist so that I don't have to worry 20 years down the road about the effects of all of moms behavior. 

[livednlearned]

From what you say, the GAL is aware what's going on, and that's a plus. A psyche eval that points to BPD would give your kids some language to understand things better, so they aren't absorbing the shame and developing an identity in which they think the problems come from within, instead of vice versa.

Can you insist on therapy for the kids? My son was deeply impacted by his n/BPD father (we left when S15 was 9), and dx'd with all kinds of things that point to his fragility and risk of developing BPD himself.

Therapy has been a godsend for that child, though the key was to find someone who could get through his defenses.