Learned Helplessness

[boatman]

Hi everyone.

I often feel like I don't have enough social support and/or I'm socially deficient somehow. What bothers me most about it is that I feel helpless to change the situation, which brings up a feeling of being stuck in a lonely cave somewhere. Has anyone else experienced this feeling of helplessness either in a similar situation or in other situations?

Thanks everybody. 

[purekalm]

Hello boatman,

I can relate. I can honestly say I've never had the social support I've needed my entire life. Everyone around me was unhealthy and/or I refused to reach out trying to do everything on my own. I actually am socially deficient! I can talk just fine when I write it out. But, if you talk to me in person and I don't know you I'm constantly saying "umm" and grasping for things to say that sound normal or something someone would want to hear. (I know why my son has autism, it's pretty obvious when I look at myself )

I have felt helpless too, I can totally understand. I have worsened my depression and been more negative than necessary by making "oh woe is me" statements. When thought about logically, researched if necessary, you can find the help you need. I'm very different than my siblings, and I've always known it. I'm different than the majority of people I know, so I've always been a bit lonely and learned to accept it.

I guess it's all in the way you're looking at it at the time. Do you REALLY have no way of making your situation better? Have you thought of/looked for ways to improve it? Did you try anything that you thought of? Not everyone fits good with every personality, which I'm sure you know. Reach out for what you do have, and in the mean time, make sure you're not expecting anyone to take on problems you haven't already identified is too much for you to handle yourself. This is only my opinion, so if there's anything helpful, just take what works! =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[boatman]

Hi Purekalm,

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry you feel like I do sometimes. I can particularly relate to what you said about everyone around you being unhealthy. I remember sometimes thinking that my family was insane, even when I was a kid. I don't have any contact with them now because of their unhealthy behavior.

When I think about it logically, I know I can make my social situation better, but the FEELING of helplessness is hard to overcome sometimes. Lately I've been working on empowering myself to take specific actions to meet my goals, particularly in this area. I also recently started making a list of goals and specific actions I can take to meet them. It does help to reduce the helpless feeling.

Do you have people that you do reach out to?

 

[purekalm]

Hey boatman,

Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply!

That's good that you've taken steps to help alleviate it yourself. I know that always helps me too.

No, just here. Right now I don't have any friends (outside of here) or anything like that. I rely on God mostly. I don't like to put to much pressure on other people about my situation and things like that, even though they have no problem dumping on me. I'm so used to that one way street, but I'm working on it. =)

I feel like Rodney in Robots, "If you burden your friends, soon you won't have any". But, isn't that what friends are for? Share each other's burdens? That's what I thought anyways. Do you have anyone that you can reach out to? I only have my disordered family, so... .

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Lucky Jim]

Hey boatman, I suggest you put your energy where your power is, i.e., in the things under your control that you have the ability to change.  For example, you can reach out more consciously to others if you find that you lack social support.  Don't wait for them to contact you, which is beyond your control.  Make a decision to do the things that you enjoy.  Hang out w/supportive people.  Listen to your gut feelings.  Strive to be authentic.  Pursue your passions.  You get the idea!  LuckyJim

[boatman]

I feel like Rodney in Robots, "If you burden your friends, soon you won't have any". But, isn't that what friends are for? Share each other's burdens?

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think part of the helpless feeling I feel comes from my fear of having a reciprocal friendship with anyone. I feel much more comfortable around people that mainly talk about themselves. I don't like the way many people react if I try to talk about myself. Is this similar to how you feel?

[purekalm]

Hello again boatman, 

I feel much more comfortable around people that mainly talk about themselves. I don't like the way many people react if I try to talk about myself. Is this similar to how you feel?

Yes, I would say I could've written it myself actually. It's easier to let people talk about themselves and whatnot, even when they aren't particularly narcissistic. Whenever the subject would come to me, or I have a chance to say anything, (my opinion) there might be an awkward pause or they don't know how to answer so ignore me. I find it a tad bit easier to converse with others that are also a little different thinkers, but it's still not easy and I still don't have any friends.

I've asked before and I've been told that I'm just fine, not threatening or too talkative (most the time, every once in a while I haven't talked to someone in so long I can't make myself shut up!) but I see people's expressions and wonder what it is I must be doing wrong? I don't personally want a ton of friends, but a good one or two that I can be myself with and accepted is fine with me.

What's so weird is if I write out what I'm thinking or want to say, I'm viewed differently because no one can see me, hear the awkwardness, no pauses. I personally don't try to keep a conversation going anymore. So, if someone isn't saying anything I let the comfortable silence stretch. I can tell it bothers other people though, like there has to be constant conversation. I pipe up if I think of something to say and I answer if I'm asked a question... .It's also hard to trust anyone even if someone did want to be my friend because it wouldn't take someone two seconds anymore to post something personal to you on a social media platform. I don't like any attention, I'm a background type person. I'll be happier making the set, not standing in the spotlight having everyone look and respond to me.

I don't know. You're probably not as awkward, but you never know who you will form some type of bond with. Usually over shared interests or a common life event or something like games or kids, job type, promotions, all kinds of things. How do you think you act on average around others?

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[boatman]

Hi Purekalm,

but I see people's expressions and wonder what it is I must be doing wrong?

I can relate to this. I would say that people look uninterested about 90% of the time when I try to talk with them. What makes it worse is that they will often ignore what I said and begin to talk about themselves. You mentioned social media, I think social media makes this much much worse. Now that there are electronic platforms for people to make announcements about themselves, it becomes second nature to do that during face to face communication as well. I think this certainly fuels some of my helpless feeling. How about you?

How do you think you act on average around others?

I think I'm actually a pretty good conversationalist, like I said I get discouraged and feel shameful when people ignore me and/or only talk about themselves. Some of the shame I feel also comes from my childhood as my parents and family used to treat me this way. I was ignored and neglected quite a bit. How does shame affect your communications with others? Is it something you feel?

Have a good day! 

[boatman]

A quick addition to my post:

I was reading my previous post where I said I was more comfortable when people talk about themselves. I think I might have been mistaking comfort for numbness. It certainly doesn't make me feel good, sometimes I think I just check out when I'm involved in a one sided conversation. I'll have to think more about this.

[purekalm]

Boatman,

I was reading my previous post where I said I was more comfortable when people talk about themselves. I think I might have been mistaking comfort for numbness. It certainly doesn't make me feel good, sometimes I think I just check out when I'm involved in a one sided conversation. I'll have to think more about this.

I agree. I get annoyed because I grew up with my parents only able to talk about themselves. I was the counselor, as a child, so I learned to become a good listener. But, it's frustrating. Not because I want the conversation to be about me by any means, but that my opinion or idea, no matter how different it may be is heard. Most people don't want to hear anyone else though, so I feel myself drifting or "checking out" because it's not really a conversation where you sit and trade information, you're just listening to someone talk on and on about themselves and their lives and that's just not interesting unless you're interviewing someone. It's how I feel anyways.

Yes, I personally dislike social media and only have a fb account to talk to one of my sisters because someone else almost always has her phone. I never got the whole idea in the first place. The only people who would really care about what you're doing is supposed to be people closest to you, why would anyone else? I can't see constantly posting how I feel, pictures of myself, what I'm doing to this great big void... .The ironic thing is I see my sisters and other family members doing it and I'm over here feeling embarrassed for them, but everyone accepts it as normal. (Shrugs)  

I used to feel a great deal of shame because I felt inadequate in so many ways. My upbringing, my abilities or lack there of, appearance, you name it and I wasn't going to measure up. Funny thing is until puberty when I REALLY noticed the differences of me from other girls I didn't care what others thought about me in any way and told them so. All of a sudden it was like I couldn't be me anymore and had to try my best to fit in with the social norms, but that wasn't me, so I didn't try that hard which further ostracized myself and the war continued. I became so self conscious I started hiding behind my hair and baggy clothes so no one could tell I had a body, much less what it looked like! I could hold a conversation with people much older then me and they were always surprised at my age. I just didn't fit with those my age, ever.

I think the more I've accepted I'm just odd and no one has to like me or be my friend I don't feel the shame anymore. Now I just don't understand why I can't find someone who wouldn't mind being my friend, and on the same note I feel like I'd be a burden to someone if I was because my life is still so screwed. Always helping others has made it difficult to confide in someone when I'm down or need some help. There's that pull myself up by my "shoe strings" (no boots  ) mentality. My personal opinion is that people are so used to constantly talking about themselves or in text speech they completely forget how to communicate normally. I've seen it and it's just sad.

So, do you withdraw when someone ignores you? Do you try to repeat your question? Have you ever pointed out that your question was ignored? Some people are so stuck on themselves they don't notice, but has anyone ever actually took notice when you checked out? Are you talking to people you have any shared interests in or just random people you're trying to figure that out from talking? Do you have any friends currently or as you grew up? I had "friends" but it was only like one at a time and I always had to do all the work. They thought that I was weird too, but they liked me because I was mainly authentically myself. It's what I was told anyway. I didn't keep in contact with them because of me always being the one to reach out and when I didn't, there was nothing returned so I just dropped it.

You have a great day too boatman! =)

Purekalm

[boatman]

I used to feel a great deal of shame because I felt inadequate in so many ways.

I'm sorry you felt this way. I'm certain that shame is a driver of my helpless feeling. I think it's something I'll carry with me for the rest of my life.

So, do you withdraw when someone ignores you? Do you try to repeat your question? Have you ever pointed out that your question was ignored? Some people are so stuck on themselves they don't notice, but has anyone ever actually took notice when you checked out? Are you talking to people you have any shared interests in or just random people you're trying to figure that out from talking? Do you have any friends currently or as you grew up?

I would say that 99% of the time I just walk away or zone out. I'm learning to just accept people as they are, so it's pretty rare for me to speak up about it when I can just leave the situation. I don't know if anyone has ever noticed my checking out, if they have they haven't said anything. I've had friends but none of them healthy. Most people in my family (which I don't associate with anymore) prefer social isolation so I never really had any healthy friendships modeled for me.

How about you? How do you deal with the feeling of shame when it arises?

[purekalm]

How about you? How do you deal with the feeling of shame when it arises?

Well, before it depended on the situation but I would get angry. Or rather, I would feel deeply hurt but only show anger because I didn't want to show my weakness. I have three siblings so part of being ignored I learned early on.

Now, it doesn't happen as much because like you I'm accepting people for who they are and accepting myself for who I am. Not everyone wants to to talk to me, I don't want to talk to everyone. Sometimes I simply take a deep breath and I've learned to navigate myself out of the conversation as polite as possible because I don't see the point in a one sided conversation. You can talk for five minutes if you want, but after you've given your point let someone else have a say.

The immediate thoughts are "see, you don't mater" "look how easily your well thought out point was rejected or ignored" "you're too awkward to talk to regular people" "they're just pretending to like you but behind your back they're being honest" (I've actually had this happen but didn't bring it up to who I caught) "why speak? you have nothing important to say" "your advice is garbage compared to what someone else can say". Basically, all self defeating relating to how I equated my worth with how well I was able to help someone based on the role of "caretaker" I was given since I was a child. It's not something easy to stop. Something that did help me was a book called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. It helped me to separate what I was responsible for and what I wasn't and how I was being unhealthy in the way I approached things based on my negative line of thinking towards myself.

The way I see it all now is, I'll talk to whomever initiates a conversation with me and if they refuse to actually have a conversation I will just smile and let them talk (if I'm in a car and can't leave) or let them know I'm going somewhere or find something to do that I can excuse myself for (I won't lie to get away). It's mentally draining to have to sit there through that. My stbxh is this way. A few uh huh's here and there and he'll talk for hours about nothing. I started drowning him out but didn't want to be treated that way myself so I started either telling him to get to the point or let me know if this is an actual conversation or is he just wanting to talk? I'd just like to know.

I think that once you can detach from the shame of being ignored and are more able to assert your boundaries in conversation you'll feel a lot better. It will still come up unless you're able to heal from the reason it all started though. I've found that no amount of help for the present stops problems that were created in the past from popping up until I've dealt with them and let them go. I believe you can do it boatman. I'm here for you, even if just a soundboard whenever you need it! Have a good day. =)

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Ulysses]

I often feel like I don't have enough social support and/or I'm socially deficient somehow. What bothers me most about it is that I feel helpless to change the situation

Hey boatman, I don't know your full story, but I noticed in the past you've mentioned you feel your ex has turned some coworkers against you.  I wonder if some of the feelings you're having might still have to do with your past relationship and the effects of it?  I only say that because my exNPD/BPDh definitely spread lies about me with his family and coworkers, and that combined with the gaslighting and other things he did turned me into a social wreck.  I've always been an introvert, but I always had friends.  I still have my close friends, but right before, during and after my divorce I felt isolated sometimes.  Towards the end of our  marriage he tried to convince me to stop talking to a friend I've known since I was six, he wouldn't give me messages that my sister or mother had called, and I realized through therapy that every male I spoke with he belittled to me, or told me the guy only talked to me because he wanted to sleep with me (sure, when I'm six months pregnant, too... .).

It's helped me to stay involved in hobbies and work.  I do sometimes feel alone, and I think part of that is because I'm so busy rebuilding my life (work, school, children).  I endure it for now but do feel I "should' do more when I have more time.

What ways are you reaching out for social support?  Do you have a therapist you can talk to?  Do you have interests outside of work that you can harness to meet others?

[boatman]

Hi again Purekalm-

I really appreciate your support. 

I agree that I need to heal from my past. The shame I feel stems from my childhood, as I said my parents were quite neglectful, often left me feeling invisible. My BPD relationships have been an extension of these longstanding feelings. Ugh

Hi Ulysses,

Thank you for your response. I've been taking a break from therapy for the last year or so but I've been thinking about starting up again. I've done a lot of therapy in my life, sometimes it's nice to have a break from it. Honestly, I don't really reach out for support. After 37 years of handling everything on my own and being told not to "bother" people, it's hard to change my ways. How about you? How do you go about reaching out to people?

[purekalm]

Hello boatman,

You're welcome. I don't have anywhere near the best answers, but I can share my experience at the least. =) I completely understand about the relationships. It's insidious that childhood trauma.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Ulysses]

Hi Boatman,

I don't know if anything I have to offer is helpful, but in case it is, here are some of my thoughts and experiences.

There was a time I didn't reach out for any support other than family, therapist, and one close friend.  I was still married and was concerned that talking about my exH's activities would get him fired.  Then I finally opened up to more friends and other parents I knew.  They could offer support.  Eventually I stopped talking to many people about things.  I was divorced a couple of years ago.  The behavior from my exH continues, but I find that if I try to talk to people about it, they get upset.  I feel bad watching them get upset.  Talking to my attorney and therapist, there's not much I can do legally at this point, and my reacting to his e.g. (minor?) violations of parenting plan or unwillingness to coparent is what he's looking for.  So I take it to my therapist.  And an old friend who used to be a therapist.  And my journal.  And this site.  I find I want validation that his actions are inappropriate, etc., and I am working on validating myself on my beliefs about his behavior, and not waiting for someone else to agree that he often creates difficult situations that leave me feeling frustrated.

So, how do I reach out for support?  I contacted my church and met a few times with a minister.  (This might not work out well if the minister doesn't have experience with personality disorders.  I was fortunate in that when she was younger, my minister had actually been married to someone exhibiting these traits, and was a sex addict, so she was able to offer support in many ways.)

When I really needed it I just contacted a couple of friends and told them I was hurting, and asked if I could talk to them.  But, I didn't contact people I assumed my exH had distorted me with, for instance wives of his coworkers.  I'm at a point now where I find just being around people socially, whether friends or just acquaintances, is uplifting.  I don't talk about my exH, I just enjoy being in their presence and conversing about anything.  It's nice to spend time with people I have something in common with, and yet who are different than me, and not focus on my exH.  It was hard at first to hold a conversation, and sometimes I just was present and didn't say much.  But I feel I'm blossoming and can hold conversations again and really be part of what's going on. 

[boatman]

When I really needed it I just contacted a couple of friends and told them I was hurting, and asked if I could talk to them.

I admire your courage in doing this. When I think about doing this it feels like it would be easier to lift my car over my head. I'm not even sure why.

[Ulysses]

I admire your courage in doing this. When I think about doing this it feels like it would be easier to lift my car over my head. I'm not even sure why.

That's very kind to say.  I'll be honest that I'm not sure I ever thought it took courage.  At the time it felt more like desperation - as if I truly needed support and was reaching out to them because I had no one else to turn to.  It felt like a relief, too, in that I didn't have to keep pretending everything was ok.  My MC suggested I reach out to other parents I knew - I was truly isolated at the time.

It sounds like you feel it would be a task that requires strength.  Do you also feel afraid?  If so, do you know why?  I think I felt afraid for a little while, too.  I was afraid I would ruin my exH's career.  I was afraid others would judge me for staying with him.  These things didn't happen.  The second friend I told, outside of my family and the one friend who I turned to right away, was a childhood friend.  It was amazing to talk to her, because it validated how I was feeling.  She even named things I didn't see, purely in the way she reacted to what I was telling her about exH's behavior.  She labeled some of his behavior as paranoid, which I see now it was, and told me regarding some of his other behavior/"magical" beliefs, "that's CRAZY!"  It was like I was getting back in touch with the values I'd grown up with, and seeing that his behavior was out of the ordinary, and not in a healthy way.  Another friend, who used to be a therapist, offered some insight into me, and reminded me of the positive aspects he remembered about me from our past friendship (at the time I was going through this, we ran into each other unexpectedly, and I took a chance to talk to him, which I'm very glad I did, and that I guess did take some courage).  His words of encouragement and reality-checking, and his questions about me that caused me to self-reflect, are still in my mind, 2 years later.

You might not feel you have anyone you can talk with, who will keep your confidence or be able to support you.  I think that's a wise thing to know.  It can be devastating to try to talk to someone and they don't understand, and perhaps blame you or think you're off balance.

Do you feel like you're able to do some things socially, perhaps even where people don't know you or your history?  You can just spend time with them, interacting without discussing your history or situation with your ex? 

[boatman]

Do you also feel afraid?  If so, do you know why?

In general I feel afraid to reach out to people for fear of bothering them. I think it is part shame and part conditioning.

Do you feel like you're able to do some things socially, perhaps even where people don't know you or your history? 

I've tried that before but I almost always feel out of place. Again, I think shame rearing its ugly head.

[purekalm]

Hello again boatman,

I just wanted to let you know that if you decide to you could post over on Coping and Healing about the issues of shame and your neglectful childhood. You will most likely get some insight and help you on your road to stop feeling shame. I know it's not easy. It's been hard for me to reach out too. I'm thirty and still second guess myself when I post. Have a great day boatman.  

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[boatman]

Hi Purekalm,

Thank you for thinking of me. I've thought about posting about my childhood before, I guess I wouldn't know where to begin. You're right though, I need to give it some serious consideration. I hope you are doing well on your journey. Thanks again! 

[purekalm]

No problem boatman.

I know that with myself and many others it all started with our FOO (family of origin) and it has affected us deeply in ways we don't even understand and have to work through. That you know this, even though you haven't seriously considered it yet is a great start. I'm doing the best I can right now, but I'm not giving up and I keep looking for answers. The scariest of all is actually leaning on complete strangers and letting out some pain for help/insight for healing.

Once again, you're welcome boatman! 

Sincerely,

Purekalm