I've been staying at the domestic violence shelter with my four children,

[momtario]

I'm sitting here, very confused about something. How come I can't put myself first? How come I can't do something considered conventionally rude, if it's what would be best for me?

It boils down to being the same problem I've always had with maintaining healthy boundaries for myself.

I've been staying at the domestic violence shelter with my four children, trying to do medium chill with my BPDh. Ex? I guess so, since I've left. Okay, so I've been trying to do medium chill with my ex-uBPDh.  He's been texting me off the wall, and I've been trying to only respond to certain things, such as questions about the children's welfare and validating how hurt he is. Telling him to contact his doctor or therapist, reminding him that he's only supposed to be contacting us through our Family and Children's Services worker and that with FCS involvement, it really isn't in my hands anymore (which it really isn't).

When he phoned me, I was trying to see my caller ID so I could answer if it was one of the schools, FCS, or my parents calling, and I accidentally answered. (There's a point, and I'm getting to it).

I then spent over an hour trying not to JADE and doing a terrible job of it. As a matter of fact, that's all I did when I had the chance to speak in that conversation. It's the first time I've spoken to him in several days, and I was a bit shocked that I was accidentally talking to him. I didn't want to say that I had answered it by accident. I didn't want to just hang up on him after having answered it, either.

So I have spent the majority of my day feeling horrible because I accidentally answered a phone and I couldn't figure my way out of an hour long conversation.

I guess I need assertiveness training? Does anybody have experience with that? Right now, I'm still reading the adjusted bill of rights that's on the wall here. Particularly "I have the right to not be responsible for other adults problems." Hopefully it sinks in one day soon.

[ArleighBurke]

I think you are right - you need to believe that YOU deserve what you want. After living with a BPD, you can easily forget that - especially if he's abused you. Congratulations for escaping, for making that tough decision, and for putting you and the kids FIRST. I don't know your story - but I'm sorry you had to go through an abusive marriage.

I'm not sure its such a bad thing - to not be able to be rude... .

I think we assume that everyone else plays by the same rules as us - that everyone else is polite, respectful - but they're not. So hanging up on someone is rude - you dont want to be. You want to make sure that ending the conversation is mutual. But it can't be if they don't want it to be.

I think you have to state: "I'm sorry but i can't talk to you now - I'm going to hangup in 10 seconds. Is there anything you need to say". Then after 10 seconds (I presume he's trying to talk you into talking), say it again: "I'm sorry but i can't talk to you now - I'm going to hangup NOW". And hangup.

It'll feel rude. Absolutely. But I think it's actually HIS rudeness you feel, not yours... .

[thisagain]

I know that struggle very well! It feels so rude or even cruel to just hang up or leave the room when the pwBPD is so upset. But we enforce our boundaries by ending a conversation because we know nothing else will work. We tried the things that would work on a healthy person - asking to change the subject, asking them to calm down and stop yelling at us, etc - and it didn't work.

It sounds like you've already tried redirecting him during these conversations. If you try that and he just keeps ranting, there's only one way to protect yourself from having to hear abuse, and that's to hang up.

If it helps you feel better, you can preface it with something like "I can't talk to you about this anymore. You should not be contacting me without going through the FCS worker. I'm going to hang up now." You could even consider blocking his phone number. It's not your responsibility anymore to validate how hurt he is, and if he's concerned about the children's welfare he should also go through FCS. So there's really no legitimate reason for him to need to contact you.

  You're in a tough spot, and this will get easier with time. Is there any therapy/counseling as part of staying in the DV shelter? Therapy helped me enormously when I was first figuring out how to enforce boundaries.

[BowlOfPetunias]

I find that I often give in to rude behavior in order not to be rude myself.

For example, my wife and many of her relatives and friends will often not let me get a word in edgewise.  They talk right over me when I try to say something.  So I stop talking.  Sometimes her mother will ask me a question and then start talking over me as a try to answer.

The really frustrating part is when her mother and one friend in particular have turned around and then claimed that I was being rude because I did not talk enough.

I do call my wife out on this.  I try to have as little contact with her mother as possible.

[Grey Kitty]

You can be assertive (putting yourself first), or be aggressive (putting others down).

We live in a society which really slams women in that regard--A woman being assertive will be called aggressive (b___y)... .and a man being aggressive is admired as being successful or competitive.

I don't know about your FOO, momtario, but many members here were told by a parent that they were being greedy, self-centered, rude, etc. any time they expressed any of their own needs or wants... .and the natural consequence of that is that being even a little bit assertive, even defending themself feels "rude" or "b___y". Whether your actual actions are or are not.

And if you didn't learn that from your FOO, you probably learned it from your exH. Most likely he reinforced what you had already been taught.

Start by learning to say "no" any way you can, whether it feels rude or not. Once you get good at that, you can work on finding relatively kind ways to do so.

Hang in there... .and while you are at it, change the ringtone for your exH to something which will remind you not to answer it. (My ex still has the intro to Rod Stewart's "Reason to Believe"   )

[HappyChappy]

Hi Momtario,

You make a good point. Many of us on here struggle to put ourselves first, and that’s attractive to someone with a PD. Also someone with BPD trains us to take the blame, so your example of feeling bad about picking up the phone by mistake, needs re-writing. How dare he ignore your boundaries, especially when you’re so afraid.  CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) can alter these underlying thoughts, so we start to apportion fair blame, rather than holding the blame. So we start to insist on healthy boundaries etc... . 

I would say applying boundaries isn’t rude. Someone with BPD may convince us it is, but it isn’t. One thing I found helpful is to write down a list of what you want, a bucket list of sorts. But it’s his bad not yours on the phone call. 100%. All the best. 

[momtario]

Thank you everyone for helping me figure this stuff out. I have a lot of gaslighting and conditioning to work my way through right now, and I'm still feeling a little in shock that I actually left.

  You're in a tough spot, and this will get easier with time. Is there any therapy/counseling as part of staying in the DV shelter? Therapy helped me enormously when I was first figuring out how to enforce boundaries.

It isn't really therapy, but there's a lot of educational counseling available. Confidentiality prevents me from saying much more than this, but sorting out appropriate boundaries and enforcing them for ourselves is part of it.

I find that I often give in to rude behavior in order not to be rude myself.

For example, my wife and many of her relatives and friends will often not let me get a word in edgewise.  They talk right over me when I try to say something.  So I stop talking. 

I do this, too. I'm not sure where or when it started, but I think it's part of being introverted.

You can be assertive (putting yourself first), or be aggressive (putting others down).

We live in a society which really slams women in that regard--A woman being assertive will be called aggressive (b___y)... .and a man being aggressive is admired as being successful or competitive.

The second piece here makes it difficult to know the difference between the first piece. Improving my mindfulness will probably go a long way.

And if you didn't learn that from your FOO, you probably learned it from your exH. Most likely he reinforced what you had already been taught.

Most likely. My FOO wouldn't have ever worded it quite like that, but children learn things in lots of ways. 

But it’s his bad not yours on the phone call. 100%.

I need to figure out why it's so hard for me to believe that.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey momtario-

My two cents:

I'm sitting here, very confused about something. How come I can't put myself first? How come I can't do something considered conventionally rude, if it's what would be best for me?

Because you have the belief that taking care of yourself is conventionally rude.  Is it really?  Have you looked at that belief and where it came from?  Can you believe it's possible to change our beliefs?

Selfishness gets a bad rap, but really, if we don't take care of ourselves first, we have nothing to give.  Think about what flight attendants say on airplanes: "in the event of an emergency, put your oxygen mask on first, and then help children and others", or something close to that.  Selfishness and self preservation aren't far from one another. 

Radical selfishness is in your best interest right now.  Think about what not putting your best interests first has cost you: you're in a domestic violence shelter.  And think about what you would think if one of your children stood up for himself towards a bully or a kid that was trying to take advantage: you would support your kid 100% and consider what they did to defend themselves the just thing and the right thing, yes?

I guess I need assertiveness training? Does anybody have experience with that? Right now, I'm still reading the adjusted bill of rights that's on the wall here. Particularly "I have the right to not be responsible for other adults problems." Hopefully it sinks in one day soon.

Yes, you have the right, and you can also have the obligation to yourself to not be; coming from that place assertiveness is straightforward.  And you're emotionally bonded to your ex in an unhealthy way, evidenced by the fact you can't get off the phone and can't get a word in edgewise for an hour, and the only way to break that bond is first, don't communicate with him in any way for a long time, which isn't the whole solution but it is the first step, because when you do communicate with him it reinforces the bond.  A good question to ask now is what more will it cost you if you don't break that bond, and is that acceptable to you?

Take care of you!

[zonnebloem]

Good luck!

You've got the best mentors helping here and yes... .I do understand.
It can go to a level of "making love" where one said a 100 times no no no.

Take care... .to be unatached is our goal!

[momtario]

Thanks both of you.

HeeltoHeal, I like that: "Radical selfishness is in your best interest right now." I didn't say anything because I hadn't felt it until today, but these words and their incredible significance have made a huge difference for me these last few weeks.

And you're emotionally bonded to your ex in an unhealthy way, evidenced by the fact you can't get off the phone and can't get a word in edgewise for an hour, and the only way to break that bond is first, don't communicate with him in any way for a long time, which isn't the whole solution but it is the first step, because when you do communicate with him it reinforces the bond.  A good question to ask now is what more will it cost you if you don't break that bond, and is that acceptable to you?

I made the mistake of calling him two weeks ago, and it didn't go at all well. I may have posted about that, but I don't remember. At any rate, I haven't spoken with him on the phone since, and I don't intend to until I'm a little whole lot more sure of my ability to hang up if things get too difficult. It's not healthy for either of us for me to let him go on and on in either rage or sadness, which is at least a small part of why I left.

And to answer that good question, I'll end up losing at the very least (what's left of) my sanity, and possibly my children, or at the very worst, the physical safety I've managed to find.

[Grey Kitty]

At any rate, I haven't spoken with him on the phone since, and I don't intend to until I'm a little whole lot more sure of my ability to hang up if things get too difficult.

Good plan. I've suggested you try to deal with him by email (or possibly text) if at all possible... .to give yourself more time to think before you get yanked into something you don't want to deal with... .and generally protect yourself.

I'm going to suggest that you avoid phone calls (or in person contact) as much as you can... .both until you are sure you are stronger as you said... .AND until you see him showing you a long track record of good behavior. As in being reasonable by email. Honoring the court/CPS/etc. requirements. Spending supervised time with your kids, and getting good reports (which you trust/believe) from the people supervising him.

Yes, I'm sure you will be much stronger someday... .but unless he is behaving better, you still don't want to be closer or more vulnerable around him than you need.