Found my biggest trigger for JADE'ing

[SettingBorders]

Yesterday, I realized what is my biggest trigger that keeps my JADE'ing over and over: It's his attempts to make me say that I accept his version of how he wants things to be done. He will not end provoking me and telling me „arguments“ to prove that I was actually causing the argument because of my stubbornness until I would say: Okay, I'm agreeing to do X. (Like accompanying him for grocery shopping, getting or not getting a certain item, when to show up at a birthday party, not to do certain things as right now he's not having any time to join in, and other examples like that.)

Most times, I will not accept that (I'm a grown up woman) … so we keep on discussing. Eventually I would say: I am waiting for weeks to do X with you, until now you never found the time, now I will do it/have done it alone. Or: This is my decision and I don't want to discuss it, period. But that doesn't make things any better, it only makes him upset and he's provoking me even harder. I would repeat my statement and finally JADE again. Don't know how to get out of this.

How do you handle this?

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[Notwendy]

I think you've discovered that JADE happens when our boundaries are being broken in some way- and we JADE to defend them. We are used to talking out things to arrive at a mutual understanding- but I found in my situation that this didn't work. JADE ing for me would inevitably seem to end in a long circular argument that led nowhere, with me exhausted and crying at the effort of it, and the feeling that my message was not heard.

It takes time for some of us to understand boundaries. They aren't something we need to tell others- they are a reflection of our value system- and something we act on. A sense of knowing about us. We think of boundary issues as having weak ones, but we can also have too strong ones in some cases- and that leads to dysfunction in relationships as well.

When we compromise our boundaries- we end up feeling bad about ourselves and resentful- these feelings are a sign to us to pay attention to boundaries.

People with weak or too strong boundaries attract people with other boundary issues, so it isn't a surprise that we can end up with someone who tends to push our boundaries.

Words may not work well, but we establish boundaries through actions. Think of a firm boundary. If your SO wanted to persuade you to rob a bank ( I hope that's a firm boundary) would you spend time JADEing about why you wouldn't, or would you say no?

I know that I have a lot of difficulty saying no. One reason is that I grew up with a BPD mother who would often rage, so we kids learned that not saying no kept the peace. I brought that into my marriage. JADE to me was a way to justify the "No" to my H, if he only understood, then he wouldn't get angry right? ( no, it didn't work). Many times, I just would say yes, when I meant no to keep the peace. This just reinforced that his behavior worked, and so did mine- to keep the peace. But if I wanted things to change, I had to be able to say no, to have boundaries, and learn to deal with people being angry or disappointed.

If we look at JADE in the context of the drama triangle, it is us trying to "rescue" ourselves from the reaction to our boundaries. Other people may not like that we have them. 

[Notwendy]

One boundary can be to not discuss things when provoked or triggered. It takes two to engage in a circular argument.

When I started to feel agitated, I just stopped speaking. It wasn't the silent treatment. I learned from co-dependency groups to avoid the word "you" and speak from the perspective of me. For example " I am too upset to speak clearly about this, I need some time to think about it" - and then leave the room- was more effective than " you are upsetting me" which would continue the drama.

The circular arguments were a hard pattern to break out of. It took time, and support from a T and codependency sponsor, but eventually I learned that a boundary for me was to not have a discussion when I felt triggered, and I was able to act on it.

Boundaries are about us, and it helps to pay attention to us. JADE is a focus on trying to change the perspective of someone else- to try to make them understand us, and that didn't seem to work well for me.

[waitingwife]

It really helped me to always keep in mind that my UBPDH is an adult and it's not my job to convince him to see my perspective and that he has a right to his perspective howvever different it is from mine. It has reduced the circular arguments and using the "I" am upset or angry or any other feeling does sent his emotions hitting the fan and he processes it by being quiet for sometime but the end result is wonderful. I have a lot less resentment with this approach and I get my needs met through my friends, therapist, reading, etc c until H comes around. He is also able to shorten his dysregulation due to firm boundaries and is emotionally available to me a lot more times than before.
Notwendy-  what is the codependency group thst you're talking about? Can you share with me what is it the goal of the group?

[Notwendy]

It's the 12 step groups- CoDa, ACA ( which includes adult children of dysfunction).


Although I had heard of AA, it didn't occur to me to even consider the addiction model. I didn't have issues with drugs and alcohol, and neither does my H, so I assumed these groups were for people who struggled with this or a spouse with these issues. It is also interesting that I had sought out counseling for help with dealing with my parents- BPD mom and not ever had anyone suggest these groups.

I started MC with my H and one of the first things the MC said to me was to check out a 12 step group to deal with co-dependency. I was surprised- why me? ,but I was willing at this point to do anything to change the patterns in my marriage, and so, I did it. The most effective thing for me was to do the steps with a sponsor. Meetings are good, but it took a sponsor to help me look at myself. It wasn't comfortable to do this, but with her support, I was able to make some positive changes.

[Notwendy]

And you are right to let a grown adult manage his/her own emotions. I think sometimes we WOE to try to do this for them. But in a sense, this takes away their opportunity to learn to do this better.

[WendyDavid]

Hi SettingBorders

What you are talking about sounds like my former marriage to my BPD ex.  I really feel for you because I know how it feels to be a partner with someone so controlling and unwilling to give.  It can wear you down to be the one that always gives in.  As you continue to see yourself saying "yes" when you really want "no" or vise versa, your feelings about yourself will change.  Over time, you may start to feel that you shouldn't expect to get what you want.  You JADE to protect the real you.  Your JADEing is a self-defense mechanism that you are might want replace with a new self-defense mechanism.

He is calling you stubborn, but you are setting boundaries.  Don't let the word derail you.  Calmly keep your ground and remind him of what you discussed with him previously during quieter conversations.  Like reminding him that you want to do things with him and how you and he agreed to schedule things.  Also, calling you stubborn is his way of removing his responsibility from himself and place blame on you.  Let the word be a reminder to you of what is really happening here and you will be able to take a mental step back and regroup your thoughts.

How was the conversation with him about your feelings in these situations?  Did you have some calmer moment when you could address your point of view as you did here?  How did he feel about relationships requiring both people to give and take?  I hope he has agreed that he needs to give in a little to you sometimes, too. 

[SettingBorders]

Thanks a lot for all your answers. I am so glad to be here ... .

Unfortunately there are no quieter moments and no talking about my feelings. Very often he tells me that he thinks that he has to give in most of the times. But all I can remember is that I have given in in the past. Decisions we have to make together ... .he will put former agreements into question over and over again ... .will not remember them ... .will turn them around ... .and eventuelly I will loose pacience and give in.

My boundary with common decisions is consent: All who participate have to agree, otherwise it will not be done. But as most times I want things to change it's like chosing between doing it his way or everything stays the same.

Example grocery shopping: I've done it many times without him carrying only small bags due to my  pregnancy. But I'd love to get some water, which weights to much for me to carry. He's telling me: Either I accompany him or he won't do the shopping. So what should I do?

[WendyDavid]

I can really see why this is your biggest trigger.  Not relenting and allowing a pregnant woman to carry her own water is not very respectful.  It sounds like he (in his own BPD way) feels he is not respected.  I really hope that the two of you can come together at some time to share your point of views in a non-emotionally charged state.  Do you have a means for couples counseling?  Others posting here have talked about support groups.  Is there something the two of you could attend together? 

In the meanwhile, do either of you show gratitude when the other gives in?  Do you ever remove the "chore" out of the argument to resolve the core problem?  For example, if you feel shopping should be done right now and he is not available, an argument will start about how he wants you to wait for him and you don't want to.  Instead of talking about the shopping, do you start talking about time together?  Do you talk about how you feel spending time with him?  Do you emphasize that frustration about not being able to pick up water has nothing to do with your feelings about him?

[waverider]

The problem with quiet times to discuss feelings is that even if they can see the validity of your opinion at that time the next time it is counter to their immediate needs that conversation is just swept away, leaving you in the same circle again.

Stubbornness in decision making requires you to always have a default action so that you are not left pending agreement. I will do X unless there is an agreeable reason not to. Then a point past which debating it is over. Even if the default action means you doing without something you would rather not. It is still better being stuck in Ground Hog day having the same discussion, which really is not about the issue, but merely your pwBPD seeking reassurance that they are right. Merely by arguing about it they take this as attacking them and saying they are wrong, regardless of how you word it.

If they are left feeling like you are controlling, that is their choice to think this. You know your reality. Even a pwBPD will only flog a dead horse for so long if it never shows any signs of rising again. Like anything consistency wins out in the end, JADE is the antipathy to consistency.

As Wendy says actions speak louder than words and if nothing bad comes of your actions they will speak for themselves. pwBPD fear loss of control, you need to demonstrate that lack of control does not lead to bad things. Arguing about it simply feeds that fear, they need to feel it to adapt to it.

[SettingBorders]

Do you have a means for couples counseling?  Others posting here have talked about support groups.  Is there something the two of you could attend together? 

We're thinking about couples therapy if things don't get better after the baby is born.

In the meanwhile, do either of you show gratitude when the other gives in?  [... .]  Do you emphasize that frustration about not being able to pick up water has nothing to do with your feelings about him?

To be honest: I say thank you, but don't show lots of gratitude. Today he cleaned our flat after 4 weeks of me asking him to do it (it was his turn). We have argued a lot about it because he never found the time these previous weeks (too much work, "ill", having to relax, me beeing too demanding ... .lots of excuses). I actually am grateful but I also think that he wouldn't have done it if I didn't demand it very clearly these last days. I fear to show too much gratitude as every time things were nice these last months a new argument started.

Stubbornness in decision making requires you to always have a default action so that you are not left pending agreement. [... .] pwBPD fear loss of control, you need to demonstrate that lack of control does not lead to bad things. Arguing about it simply feeds that fear, they need to feel it to adapt to it.

Oh, that makes lots of sence! I noticed he's becoming very controlling these last months. Maybe because he sees things (his feelings) getting worse by the arguments we're having. I will try to act more (have a default action) and to JADE less. Don't want to be dependant.