Here we go again

[Annie99]

Our relationship lately has been husband goes to bed (in the bedroom for a long time with his light on, usually drinking a beer in bed and surfing his phone, porn perhaps) when I put the kids to bed, so once kids are in bed, I watch a bit of TV or have a bath or whatever and then sleep on the kids floor once they have fallen asleep. Occasionally I will go into the bedroom and chat with him for awhile, he is usually suspicious - what do I want? Bit of a relief to just avoid the whole chat and go watch some TV. Our T told me (in an individual session) that I should make more effort to connect, it isnt going to come from him, and I know there is some indignation in me that, yet again, I have to be the one to make the connection. But we are paying $200/hr for the therapist so I thought I better listen. So T was right, I started to go in to see him while he was in bed to chat for awhile in the evenings and things improved. He also told me he feels like he doesn't have a home anymore. I asked him how long he has been feeling this and he said ever since I started sleeping in the kids room (so around a month). We still have no resolution on the prostitutes so I cant sleep with him again. For all I know he is still seeing them. That conversation didnt go so well - finger pointing and very hot button with me.

Yesterday I suggested we take the kids out for a walk on a wildlife reserve, which he agreed to. Almost felt like the normal old times when we got back home and he suggested all of us go out for dinner.  I went to get groceries and came back just in time to depart for dinner. He got in the passenger seat which is very unusual, made me suspect he had probably been drinking while I was out for groceries. Got to the restaurant, he ordered a beer. I have noticed lately that his behaviour seems to change with very little alcohol, but I don't really trust my recollection of the past anymore so perhaps his behaviour has always changed. One of my sons (8 yr) said to him - dad, you're getting drunk. My h asked how can you tell? And my son replied "by how youre talking".

When we got home, h was very harsh with my son. I asked him to not speak to my son in that way and, as per usual, i(ha! even as i type this and say per usual, it is a clue that I need to change something)he says I speak to the children more harshly than him etc etc ie rather than discuss his behaviour, start blaming me. I told him I would be happy to have him point out to me anytime he feels like I am speaking too harshly and I got a very agressive "you better believe I will!".

Things went downhill from there - he started drinking more. I went to put some music on to put the kids to bed and noticed he had called up a playlist called "crazy b**ch" while I was out with songs with explicit horrible lyrics. Thats what he had been playing for our 8 yr old sons while I was out. He has done this before. Its like he wants to be there teenage buddy instead of their father.  I stayed very calm but said - "it looks like there is a playlist here that is very inappropriate for our children to hear". He immediately looked guilty - we had a huge blow up awhiel ago when one of my sons started singing a song with inappropriate lyrics about women and when I questioned him on it, turned out his dad had played it for him over and over,with instructions not to tell me of course. (see why I feel I cant leave him and let him quite possibly have the kids 50% of the time. At least until the kids are a bit older and have more of a sense of their own self).

I didnt push any further but just feeling my disapproval was enough to turn his mood black. I did go into the bedroom later to chat but he was already asleep (or pretending to be) so I just turned off his light and left.

Prediction - he will feel guilty about last night when he gets home from work tonight so will only drink tea tonight.

Sure hope someone can tell me how I could have handled everything better. I know I need to practice in my head because no matter how hard I try in reality, he reads my disapproval even in my silence or body language.

[ArleighBurke]

Hey Annie, sorry for what you are going through. You sound to be VERY patient... .

... .songs with explicit horrible lyrics. Thats what he had been playing for our 8 yr old sons while I was out. Its like he wants to be there teenage buddy instead of their father.  I stayed very calm but said - "it looks like there is a playlist here that is very inappropriate for our children to hear"

My only suggestion is to try to inject some positive where possible. In this interaction, perhaps: "I know you want to be friends with your children, and I want that too! Fathers and children share a bond that should be strong. I think this playlist is very inappropriate for our children to hear. Perhaps we can sit down later and go through our music together to find some great songs?".

This does a few things:

• It tries to acknowledge that he is trying - that he perhaps has the right intention - just the wrong action.
• "I think this playlist is wrong" is perhaps better than "this playlist is wrong". For ME - I find "this is wrong" to be a global statement that judges his actions. Whereas "I think this is wrong" suggests that perhaps what he did was right - but just not right by YOUR standards. This is what *I* prefer to be told by my wife. (Now of course that playlist was wrong for 99% of people's standards but that's not the point... .)
• Finish with another positive - another supportive "let's work together" statement. He will probably never take you up on it, but it is a team statement.

he says I speak to the children more harshly than him etc etc ie rather than discuss his behaviour, start blaming me. I told him I would be happy to have him point out to me anytime he feels like I am speaking too harshly

This sounds like you are "problem solving". What about: "Perhaps i do. In *this* circumstance, I think your tone is over the top.". This is agreement (which is always a good diffuser!) then a statement to focus on just now (remember they are black/white, so this is to drag him away from a global statement back to this specific instance).


And perhaps also if you like chatting to him in bed, finish with a simple "I've loved chatting with you - thanks".

Hope this helps... .

[formflier]

Hang in there Annie. 

Big thumbs up for listening to your T.   

What does your T advise about how you address drinking?


FF

[Annie99]

Thanks ArleighBurke. Didn't think it was possible to insert anything positive into the playlist thing, was thinking maybe of having a discussion about values but knew that would only go south. Your advice sounds good, i will give it a try.  I have learned I cant control what he does when Im not around, so trying to get him on side rather than making him the bad guy again is worth trying. Though it will take a bit of thought on how to approach.

I also like your advice on the tone.

I need to play these things in my head - in the moment it is so hard not to react though I am getting much better at it.

The drinking - he doesnt drink a huge amount usually 2-4 beers a night (though after the affair was discovered, he was drinking a lot more). I almost think he is self medicating rather than full on alcoholic but I believe it is a problem. T hasn't said much about it - he did tell us alcohol takes away the shame guilt feelings. I think T thinks if he can get h to deal with the feelings, the alcohol problem will solve itself. My h has stopped drinking a couple of times since the affair was discovered, but he seems to think he can fix himself on willpower alone. The one hour of couples therapy every 2 weeks just isnt cutting it in my opinion.
 

[Notwendy]

Annie, as a mother, there are some actions that concern me- Drinking and the inappropriate playlist, to begin with, but the idea of being your child's peer as a parent is self-seeking, not in the best interest of the child. Children need their parents to be adults, not peers.

The smutty lyrics may be cool, but these are things that belong between teens, not teens and parents. You know that, but it is hard to resist for your H who seems so desperate to be "liked" by his son, he is willing to act like his son's age.

BPD involves emotional immaturity- your H may emotionally be closer in age to your 8 year old son in ways.

The amount of drinking isn't the whole issue in alcoholism. Drinking to self medicate is abusing alcohol. Getting drunk to escape bad feelings is at the heart of it. The line from social drinker to alcoholic is blurry. Thinking one has control and can stop anytime is part of the denial.

I think that you are aware that instruction about parenting, or advice, from you is likely to go south. PwBPD hear that as criticism and it is triggering. Your H is probably feeling a lot of fear and shame from being discovered with affairs and prostitutes. From my experiences- a person with BPD would prefer what I call the dry erase or etch a sketch apology- start over, pretend nothing happened, not accept responsibility, wipe the slate clean rather than to dig deep into the problem. That shame triggers them. However, for those of us who see the issues as involving actions on their part that deserve consideration- the cheating, we want more resolution than that.

I think there is little you can do to impact these issues for him. If explaining yourself could work, surely I think it would have. Of course ,trying to keep communication open is good- you have children between the two of you and communication is important. However, there are some large issues here when it comes to your values- cheating, drinking, parenting and it is up to us to uphold our values.

[formflier]

I too am very concerned with the peer versus parent dynamic.  I face some of that in my family and am watching that unfold with nieces and nephews with disastrous effect.

Hold strong on that issue.

I am wondering if affairs and prostitutes is too shaming for now.  Perhaps a focus on role as Dad family therapy might be more productive.

Big picture:. Might be good to get positive momentum going on more minor issues.

FF

[Annie99]

We see our T. today - I saw the T. alone last week and said that the one hour of marriage counselling once/week isn't enough and the T. is going to suggest h come and see him alone. I'm not hopeful that h will, but we will see.  I am going to talk to the kids counsellor about the h as child's peer issue, she can hopefully help the kids as well.

So just dropped the kids off at school. One of them is having problems with a friend he feels he is "losing" because the friend is hanging out with other kids now. I told him that just because his friend is hanging out with other kids, they can still be friends. My son said "Yeah, well what about your friend, Jane?" I was taken aback. Jane, her h and kids were friends of ours but they moved away this summer. We went to visit them once and stayed the night. It was very stressful - she was impatient with the kids, angry a lot and shaming towards her own kids and ours. Hadn't really noticed because never spent so much time with them before. Since I was working on codependency issues, I recognized that I had been putting too much into this friendship, that it was very one-sided and actually kind of stressful. I discussed this with h and said I didnt want to keep the friendship up. This was a private conversation between us as adults, or so I thought.

My first reaction to the kids was really bad. "What do you mean? What are you talking about? Im still friends with Jane. They just moved away. Why are you saying that?" Their reaction was "Just thought of this ourselves mom, really."  So right away I knew h had told them that I no longer liked Jane and then told them not to tell me that he had told them. I asked them. ":)id your dad tell you that?" They denied it but I know them so well that I could tell that was exactly what happened. I quickly realized I needed to tell them the truth so I said " Well the truth is, when we stayed with Jane and family, I found it quite stressful. Do you remember when their daughter dropped the watermelon by accident and she yelled at her? I found that really stressful. So I'd just rather not spend a lot of time with them, and since they have moved away, I dont need to spend a  lot of time with them." The kids actually seemed relieved by this and I realize how important it is for me to stop trying to shield them all the time from the truth, in some messed up effort to protect them. Didnt have a lot of time to talk as it was right at school drop off, and I dont want them to think I ended a friendship over one yelling incident, so will discuss again with them later.

But it brings us back to my h telling them something and then telling them not to tell me. They havent mentioned the dirty lyrics so I'm sure they were instructed about that as well. I dont know why he cant see that it would cause such anxiety in his kids to tell them something and then tell them to hide it from their other parent.  He has done this in the past and the old, unenlightened me has flown into rage at him for doing this to his children. I even told him that if he ever did it again ie told them something and then told them to hide it from me, that I would leave him for a week. Now here I am and i know I wont implement that boundary.

Im in a bit of a catch-22. If I mention this to him, Im thinking he might get angry at the kids for telling me, making it even harder for them. Might try just a generic conversation about  how anxious the kids must get if one parent tells them to hide something from another parent. Was thinking of maybe sending him an email to avoid the defensiveness and blame if I try to have an actual discussion about it. Or not discuss with h,  just be really open and honest with the kids - please approach me any time with anything - I promise I wont get mad, no matter what it is, and I promise I will always tell you the truth (and then do tell the truth, trying to protect them always comes first for me, sometimes Im not even sure what Im protecting them from). And I think that I need to get to the place where I realize anything I tell my h might then be told to my children... .which means even more walls up in our communication.

[formflier]

Couple quick comments.

The catch 22.  Let your family T (the kids counselor) handle that.  Let a professional tell the Dad not to do that.  Let a professional instruct kids (likely in front of mom and dad) that "forced" secrets are no good.

Great time for the T to take the lead in talking about privacy versus secrets.

I would also recommend that you let your T (MC) talk directly to kids counselors rather than you have to take to do lists over there...  


Yes you should be in the loop.  If you feel you have good counselors, step back and let them work.

The vibe I'm getting is that you have a good group of professionals, I'm also getting a vibe that you are pushing hard for resolution.  Perhaps... .and I stress perhaps... .you should consider marathon versus sprint thinking here.  Don't wear yourself out.

Thoughts?

FF

[Annie99]

Very insightful on the vibe for resolution FF.  Our MC has told me the same thing - that I have this sense of urgency and a need to solve everything right now.  He and you are both correct - it is in my nature to immediately solve problems.

I spoke with the kids when I picked them up from school.  I told them Im not sure if they overheard me talking to dad or if dad told them about my problems with Jane but Im okay with it either way.  I then explained further that she makes me feel uncomfortable but I will still be kind to her if we do happen to meet up etc etc  Explained that through life we will find people like this and we either need to talk to them about it (which since she has moved away, doesnt make sense in this case.) or just not have them as close friends. They seemed to get it and I think I removed some of their stress about "telling" on their dad.

I will speak to the kids counsellor about this FF. Much as I would like to use the MC to discuss the info, we only have the MC for one hour every two weeks and we always have many other issues to discuss.

Bit of a breakthrough at our session today, i even feel a tiny bit hopeful. T asked us both to talk about our abandonment issues and I talked about how I felt abandoned after the twins were born, how I was afraid to leave them with him, how finding out about the emotional affair and then the prostititues was further abandonment and how I feel I abandoned myself, that my intuition (which I have always thought was very high) told me nothing and how I feel i can never trust again.  If I had tried to have this conversation without the T present, it would have been a disaster. The T gets my h's total fear of conflict and manages to coach him through listening to my feelings respectfully and feeding them back to me.

When my h talked about his fear of abandonment, he said it was about acceptance, how he never felt truly accepted by me as he is. There is so much truth in what he says, I can see that, how i tried to shape him into the husband and father that I wanted, rather than who he is. He has been invalidated by me, so many times, which I now know was the absolute worst thing I could do to him.

My h also agreed to see the T for his own individual sessions - that is where my tiny bit of hope comes from. And man does it feel good to have one tiny little candle lit!

[ArleighBurke]

Annie, Good to hear that there is SOME progress!  Keep it up!

One of them is having problems with a friend he feels he is "losing" because the friend is hanging out with other kids now. I told him that just because his friend is hanging out with other kids, they can still be friends.

I know that this is only a conversation summary, but did you validate your child's FEELINGS? What you wrote is a solution - "you can still be friends". Did you talk with him about how he may feel lonely, or forgotten, or hurt? I find practising Validation on my kids really helpful to strengthen my bond with them - to make them feel heard - and to practice how to Validate my wife.