Just lies?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have really been thinking lately of the things ex said about his father. As I look back I had known his dad for a few years before I met ex. I had never had a problem with his dad. He complained alot about his dad once we were together. Things like his dad was a thief (ex stole everything out of my apartment except my curtains when we split up), it was a miracle his dad could hold a job (he's been at the same job for 17 years now, ex has barely ever worked), his dad was a con who had insurance schemes (ex had 3 false car insurance claims while we were together, sued his employer who fired him, lost medicaid because he didn't report a $32,000 settlement, tried to get my tax return from court, etc)There were issues when we were together, particularly after we had daughter. His dad was always at our place, I never could get time alone, etc. I have always thought that it was his father who was the problem then, but what if ex was behind it, asking him to come? After we split up he went running right to his dad. After about 8 months of living with his dad (when we were getting along), they got evicted. Ex said he wouldn't give his dad any money because his dad would blow it and not pay bills. After his dad found a new place to live and ex was homeless, he started trying to get me to let him stay with me. He started saying that his dad was a pervert, he had peepholes in the walls to look at his stepdaughter when they were younger. He didn't want daughter around his dad. He didn't have any contact with his dad for 6 months and neither did daughter. After he had disapeared for over a month back in February he came back and moved in with his dad. When I sent him his messages about his dad and asked how he could want daughter around his father after what he had said he had done, ex said "it doesn't matter if I said something bad about the president, it has nothing to do with now."
      I have been really wondering how much of what ex said was projection or a smear campaign. He has done the same thing with me. I used to take daughter into his dad's work to visit if I was in the area before they were evicted. Once he started to say stuff about his dad being a pervert I obviously didn't allow her to see his dad either. I wonder if ex was just so angry at his dad that he wanted to make sure I wouldn't let daughter see his dad, and claiming he was a pervert was the one thing he knew would definately keep me away from him?
    When we had court in August noone was with ex. He claimed there was a family emergency that kept his family from coming. Later that day his sister posted pics on FB of the family having a BBQ that day, everyone smiling and happy, no ex obviously. He seemed completely unprepared for court, even not having any paperwork done. I was dumbfounded because I had filed more motions just a month before and the court had sent out notices of what paperwork to have completed.
     Ex still comes into my work every day but now he won't come through my line, he used to but would just throw change and be silent. Ex's father also comes into my work. I agreed to go to breakfast with his dad and his girlfriend this morning. I think I just need to try to figure out how much is bulls@*t and how much is real. I don't want to deprive daughter of family if there isn't any reason. Apparently ex is not living with his dad anymore as he claimed in court. They haven't even spoken since July. They had a huge blowout that his dad didn't go into that much. His girlfriend got teary eyed when he spoke of having a blowout. He said his son was a "bear" to live with. He said he is aware of the stories his son is spreading about him all over town. Ex hasn't spoken to his sister either. I have no idea where he is staying now. It would explain his constantly going by me in his truck if he was homeless again. It would explain why ex was unprepared for court if he never even got the paperwork since his address on file is his dad's house and he hasn't even been living there.
     I am reminded of the boy who cried wolf. How many times does he lie and people stop listening. I don't know what to believe. I am angry that if I believe what ex said at one point and it isn't true I deprive daughter of family. If I believe that ex lied and allow daughter to have this family and she gets hurt I don't know what I would do. I am angry that he is so full of crap that I can't really believe anything.

[rarsweet]

I have really been thinking lately of the things ex said about his father. As I look back I had known his dad for a few years before I met ex. I had never had a problem with his dad. He complained alot about his dad once we were together. Things like his dad was a thief (ex stole everything out of my apartment except my curtains when we split up), it was a miracle his dad could hold a job (he's been at the same job for 17 years now, ex has barely ever worked), his dad was a con who had insurance schemes (ex had 3 false car insurance claims while we were together, sued his employer who fired him, lost medicaid because he didn't report a $32,000 settlement, tried to get my tax return from court, etc)There were issues when we were together, particularly after we had daughter. His dad was always at our place, I never could get time alone, etc. I have always thought that it was his father who was the problem then, but what if ex was behind it, asking him to come? After we split up he went running right to his dad. After about 8 months of living with his dad (when we were getting along), they got evicted. Ex said he wouldn't give his dad any money because his dad would blow it and not pay bills. After his dad found a new place to live and ex was homeless, he started trying to get me to let him stay with me. He started saying that his dad was a pervert, he had peepholes in the walls to look at his stepdaughter when they were younger. He didn't want daughter around his dad. He didn't have any contact with his dad for 6 months and neither did daughter. After he had disapeared for over a month back in February he came back and moved in with his dad. When I sent him his messages about his dad and asked how he could want daughter around his father after what he had said he had done, ex said "it doesn't matter if I said something bad about the president, it has nothing to do with now."
      I have been really wondering how much of what ex said was projection or a smear campaign. He has done the same thing with me. I used to take daughter into his dad's work to visit if I was in the area before they were evicted. Once he started to say stuff about his dad being a pervert I obviously didn't allow her to see his dad either. I wonder if ex was just so angry at his dad that he wanted to make sure I wouldn't let daughter see his dad, and claiming he was a pervert was the one thing he knew would definately keep me away from him?
    When we had court in August noone was with ex. He claimed there was a family emergency that kept his family from coming. Later that day his sister posted pics on FB of the family having a BBQ that day, everyone smiling and happy, no ex obviously. He seemed completely unprepared for court, even not having any paperwork done. I was dumbfounded because I had filed more motions just a month before and the court had sent out notices of what paperwork to have completed.
     Ex still comes into my work every day but now he won't come through my line, he used to but would just throw change and be silent. Ex's father also comes into my work. I agreed to go to breakfast with his dad and his girlfriend this morning. I think I just need to try to figure out how much is bulls@*t and how much is real. I don't want to deprive daughter of family if there isn't any reason. Apparently ex is not living with his dad anymore as he claimed in court. They haven't even spoken since July. They had a huge blowout that his dad didn't go into that much. His girlfriend got teary eyed when he spoke of having a blowout. He said his son was a "bear" to live with. He said he is aware of the stories his son is spreading about him all over town. Ex hasn't spoken to his sister either. I have no idea where he is staying now. It would explain his constantly going by me in his truck if he was homeless again. It would explain why ex was unprepared for court if he never even got the paperwork since his address on file is his dad's house and he hasn't even been living there.
     I am reminded of the boy who cried wolf. How many times does he lie and people stop listening. I don't know what to believe. I am angry that if I believe what ex said at one point and it isn't true I deprive daughter of family. If I believe that ex lied and allow daughter to have this family and she gets hurt I don't know what I would do. I am angry that he is so full of crap that I can't really believe anything.

[Turkish]

This is a hard one.  You want to protect your daughter.  You believed him about his dad,  but now there is doubt.  I'd be confused in your place,  while anxious about what was the right thing to do. 

If I were in your place,  I'd keep reaching out to the family, forming your own relationship with them apart from your Ex's disordered worldview,  where it's hard to tell truth from fiction.  This doesn't mean you're ready to let grandpa babysit your daughter alone,  but rather taking baby steps to determine what's best for your family.  You can be cautious without being paranoid,  yes? 

[rarsweet]

Absolutely. I have agreed to go out to breakfast with daughter's grandfather and girlfriend this Wednesday too. He actually asked if I would let him see daughter if I was always present. I don't know if I will ever be comfortable with daughter alone with him, but I feel I should atleast try this and see how it goes. My mother thinks that my ex was projecting his own behaviors onto his father. When he was a teenager his half sister lived with her mother and was only at his home every other weekend. He had a step sister who was around 12 that lived with him, and he was 16. This is when he said his father had peepholes in the walls to look at his step sister. I remember asking him how his bio sister could let grandpa babysit her 4 year old daughter. Ex said his dad would never be inappropriate with blood relatives. I pointed out that every other weekend his sister was sharing a room with the step sister, so if grandpa was looking in her room then he would have been looking at his own daughter too. Ex seemed like he had never considered that. Shortly after that ex started not letting his dad around daughter at all. After all this time and his sister being aware of what ex said about their dad she is still letting him babysit her daughter. Then of course this spring ex moved back in with his dad when he was homeless again. It didn't last long apparently, only about 3 months from what I know now. My mother has also known his dad for years before ex came in the picture. She brought up the possibility that it was ex being inappropriate to his younger step sister, but not his own sister, and maybe he is projecting that onto his dad. I just don't know.