Court ordered mediation this week? What should I expect... has it worked for u?

[Sluggo]

I have a court ordered mediation.  My diganosed Paranoid with with BPD traits has not cooperated up to this point.  My lawyer said get there at 9am and expect to be there until midnight. 

I can't imagine anything being agreed upon as where I failed in my 17year marriage is that I would give in to her wants and desires.  We are waiting for the custody evaluation to be finished but not expecting this week.  I say we are wasting money (her lawyer, my lawyer, and the mediator)?  It is going to be $800 an hour. 

At what point should I say lets stop.  What should I expect to be accomplished?  Has anyone else had success in mediation? 

[david]

I had a mediation that my xBPDw initiated. I filed a petition in court because ex was not following our court order for the summer schedule. The mediation was the day before the hearing. Started at 9am. The mediator put us in separate rooms, after a short time, and she went back and forth. There were no lawyers. After about three hours I had enough. I realized ex was not going to agree to anything so I made a pinky bet with the mediator. The mediator looked at me funny. I told her I was agreeing with everything ex wanted and that ex would say no. The mediator said that would not happen and she put us in the same room together. I won the bet. At that point I simply said that it was too nice of a day to waste inside and that I would see ex in court the next day. I stood up and left which was allowed. The next day in court ex had a schedule that met the court order exactly. I left the court in about 20 minutes. Like it has been said many times on this site, "negative engagement is still engagement."

I think it really depends on both parties and the willingness to try to find a solution. If one party just wants to fight then nothing except a fight will happen if you let it.

If you think negotiation could/would work then I would start by asking for more than you think is fair and settle for what you believe is fair. Put things in that you are willing to compromise on and do not give in to what you believe in non negotiable. This way both parties "win." That strategy works well in court too.

I would think that even if it is court ordered you can, at some point, say enough is enough and leave without legal consequences. I would check first with your attorney about the legal aspects. Ask him/her what happens after a certain time as far as the costs are concerned. If it is 800 an hour the entire time I wouldn't want to stay too long. I would make certain my attorney understands that before it starts.

[Sluggo]

Thank you David for sharing your experience!

[flourdust]

Hi, Sluggo. I've had two mediation experiences so far with my stbxw.

First, let me say that your lawyer's comment that you can expect to be there from 9 AM to midnight is absolutely nuts. At $800/hour? Why not just write out a check for $12000 and spend the day doing something productive instead? You may be ordered to try mediation, but I doubt the court has ordered you to stick it out for 15 hours.

My suggestion is to come prepared with your opening position and a list of what you are prepared to give up in negotiation. That can help keep your head straight. Also, give yourself a time limit to check in and decide if you want to continue or bail. Two hours is reasonable. Bear in mind that a fair amount of mediation time can be eaten up by providing backstory to the mediator as opposed to trying to come to terms ... .doubly so if you are put into separate rooms.

Watch out for deflection. If you're trying to negotiate spousal maintenance and she comes back with demands for temporary custody, you can easily get sidetracked and make no progress on your issue.

You don't need to agree to everything to have successful negotiation -- any issues that you can get agreement on will go off the table as far as court is concerned -- which ideally will save you time and money. So, your strategy may be to focus on whatever issues you think are least likely to be contentious.

Keep an eye on the time. If you hit your two hour mark and no progress has been made, you can walk. You'll be able to report to the judge that you made a good faith effort at mediation and had no success.

Good luck!

[livednlearned]

I agree with others. Write a list of your ideal demands. Have a second one with what you consider reasonable. And a third that lists deal breakers.

The success of mediation is largely dependent on the skill level of the mediator, imo. Many of them are lawyers and they have been trained in an adversarial system where there are winners/losers. I suppose there are some lawyers who are motivated to settle and understand the goal is to reach compromise, or at least become the party that loses less   However, I think many of them lack the psychological skill to work with high-conflict cases like ours.

Having said that, I was able to settle roughly 95 percent in mediation (my ex is very narcissistic, and that actually helped me a ton because he was trying to impress his lawyer, is my guess). One thing I learned is that you can agree to some things, and set aside those items that cannot reach agreement. For example, my ex and I were able to agree on everything financial, and most of custody, but I wanted full legal custody and we could not agree. So at 7pm that evening, having been there since 9am, we signed. In my settlement agreement, it says "Parties cannot agree to legal custody so this matter will go before a judge," or something like that. Then, it sat there until I had gathered enough evidence to show that we were unable to co-parent in any meaningful sense on even the most minor items. I went back to court, revisited that item, and eventually won full custody.

Also, be aware that lawyers tend to pride themselves on being able to mediate a settlement. Your lawyer is ethically bound to represent you, and yet is motivated to keep you out of court, and those two can be in conflict when it's a high-conflict divorce. Don't be afraid of going to court. The lawyers and mediators will tell you to try and mediate and avoid court because no one is ever happy with the judge's ruling, blah blah blah. That is probably true for most people, it isn't for us.

If it seems that your ex is not going to budge an inch and be totally and completely unreasonable, don't be afraid to end mediation and save yourself some money. You will probably have to engage in some back and forth, so give it a shot while knowing that you may be walking out of their after 2 or 3 hours with nothing in hand.

Some of us were given the option to mediate in separate rooms. You may want to think about the pros/cons of that if it's an option for you. Being in the same room means you get to hear exactly what your ex is saying. Being in a separate room means you get the watered down version via a mediator, who is trying to minimize conflict and focus on settling things (which is not always the same as proposing something fair).

I mediated in a separate room. I'm not the same person I was then, even so -- it was extremely stressful. I could tell everyone had an agenda and couldn't figure out what those agendas were. My therapist recommended I write down what I wanted before I walked in there, and I did that. I'm glad I did because the stress made it hard for me to think clearly. You may hold up better under stress than I did, and this might not apply to you. But many of us here are people pleasers and you might start to feel like the conflict is too much and you just want it to be over. That's why mediation often runs a whole day, because people get tired and start to give up.

If you know in your heart that you are asking for something reasonable, or if you know that your kids will suffer if you don't stand up for them, prepare for mediation to fail and start getting your head ready for court.

Court is not the worst thing in the world.

In fact, if you see clearly that things are NOT going to resolve in mediation, make the decision to do what is best for you, and surf that good feeling into the next stage. You stood up to people and did what you knew was best  

Don't waste money letting lawyers and mediators convince you that they can make miracles happen where you could not. Grow your titanium backbone and it will be rock hard when you take the next step  

[Sluggo]

Great feedback Flourdust and livedandlearned!

Yes I am a people pleaser and could see myself giving in.  That is what I did for the prelim hearing and I am still paying the price on that.  My previous lawyer at the prelim seemed much more interested in get an agreement than representing my rights.  I was too naive, trusting, used to having my wife make the decisions, or just in to much of a fog to think clearly and understand what really happened until about an hour after I signed (that was the worst day of this process and in the top 5 of my life). 

The lawyers and mediators will tell you to try and mediate and avoid court because no one is ever happy with the judge's ruling, blah blah blah. That is probably true for most people, it isn't for us.

That is a great point. 

Watch out for deflection. If you're trying to negotiate spousal maintenance and she comes back with demands for temporary custody, you can easily get sidetracked and make no progress on your issue.

Yes that is very common with my wife.  We could be all over the board.

Thank you all!

[ForeverDad]

Understand that you will sabotage yourself if you enter into mediation thinking that it must succeed.  If you did that then your stbEx would have an advantage since acting-out disordered people are generally very entitled and master controllers.

However, your lawyer and we here in peer support would have helped you realize that you cannot gift away your must-have terms.  If it comes down to that then you say, in effect, "Mediation isn't working.  I've given it an honest effort but it has failed.  We'll have to meet again in court for it to order a middle ground since we're not getting it here."

The reality is that most of us had to face the fact that our Ex or stbEx would not negotiate with the "give and take" required for mediation.  Some of us did, but not most.  Since courts do want mediation attempted, then we do make an honest try to make it work but at the same time realize that it is likely to fail despite our efforts.  A truism here is that we're likely to get a less unfair outcome from a judge than the crumbs we would be offered by our Ex.

In my case I had mediation ordered at the start of my divorce process (just after the temporary order) and settlement conference at the end (just before the trial).  Both failed.  That the case lasted so long — 2 years — was in part due to my stbEx having a very favorable temp order that had her in charge of custody and parenting.  Then when I arrived at court on Trial Day I was greeted with the news she was ready to settle.  Why?  She couldn't delay, posture and demand any longer.  So if your mediation does fail now, keep in mind that the closer you get to a trial or major hearing, your stbEx may then finally be ready to agree to something halfway reasonable or at least less unreasonable than before.  So don't feel too timid to say, "It's not working here, let's proceed to court."  Making your stand on your boundaries now may help later on as the trial date gets closer.

[livednlearned]

Yes I am a people pleaser and could see myself giving in. 

Knowing yourself and knowing this will be stressful, with subtle pressure (or not so subtle... ) from lawyers and mediators to settle on items that are not reasonable (and definitely not ideal), how will you know when it's time to end mediation?

It's good to work through this ahead of time. My therapist had me write a note to myself that I could read if necessary. I also called a friend who talked me off the ledge. It is amazing as I look back. I think mediation is the point at which I psychologically began to change from having no backbone to growing one.

Also, recognize that judges look at mediated settlements as more meaningful that anything they might order, because the idea is that you and your ex are two adults. So if you agree to something that you later want to change, good luck with that. 

It's much easier to stand before a judge and say that you didn't agree in mediation, and here are the reasons why. Shine sunlight on the fact that you are asking for something reasonable and your ex is not.

Bill Eddy has a video that shows him mediating a high-conflict custody dispute. It gave me a sense of what a good mediator is like, and I think they might be hard to come by. If you are so lucky, you'll probably see it because the mediator will be soothing your ex's emotional arousal while making her feel like she's in control. Meanwhile, moving the goalpost so you don't end up with nothing and she feels like she won.

It's an art form, I think.

[Deb]

Hi Sluggo,

My SD recently ( 2 months) had mediation with her dPD stbxhusband. She was nervous but she had spoken with her lawyer beforehand and was ready. She went in with solutions and plans and why she wanted what she was asking for, backed up by documentation. Her stbX, just wanted what he wanted with no possible compromise. An example was on custody and visitation. SD said she would be ok with every other weekend if certain behaviors stopped. She explained that those behaviors made her daughter uncomfortable around stbX and his GF. She said that once her daughter felt comfortable, she would be ok with longer visits. Her stbX said he wanted 50/50 starting immediately. The mediator asked him what about school and he said daughter could go to school one week in HIS state annd one week in mom's state.   The mediator then stopped the mediation saying that it would need to go to court. SD said for a long time she was afraid of him and court, but no more. People have come forward and let her know they would testity and she has lots of documentation. So go in prepared. Ask for what you want but be willing to compromise. Have solutions. Be seen as reasonable. You can do this.

[david]

"daughter could go to school one week in HIS state and one week in mom's state" If I was the mediator I would have wet my pants laughing.
We were in a custody eval meeting and ex realized she was saying things that didn't make sense and was not "winning" (in her mind). She verbally attacked the evaluator and threatened him with legal action. She told him she would get him put in jail because he was breaking the law. I just sat there and let him handle her. I felt like going over to ex and giving her a big hug and a thank you. When my ex gets stressed she does and says things that make no sense at all.

[Deb]

"daughter could go to school one week in HIS state and one week in mom's state" If I was the mediator I would have wet my pants laughing.

Yeah, david, I bet the mediaror wanted to crack up on that one. SD said she and mediator both dropped their jaws at that one! And he thought he was being reasonable! LOL!

[Sluggo]

FD,

 

Both failed.  That the case lasted so long — 2 years — was in part due to my stbEx having a very favorable temp order that had her in charge of custody and parenting.

  Yes a similar situation that I have a very poor temp order where she holds a lot of the cards.  . 

Making your stand on your boundaries now may help later on as the trial date gets closer.

  Great point!

LnL,

I think mediation is the point at which I psychologically began to change from having no backbone to growing one.

This whole experience has been showing me where I have failed to have a backbone.  I pray that this will be a watershed moment for me that I can look back on and see how I have improved. 

I will look for that video on line, if you have access to the link of the video please forward on as I would be interested in reading it. 

Deb,

So go in prepared. Ask for what you want but be willing to compromise. Have solutions. Be seen as reasonable. You can do this.

  I have been trying to put this list together but have been struggling with it.  I have allowed my wife to make the decisions for so long I still have problems breaking free of that mindset. 

Thank you all for your help and support

 

[david]

You might want to ask for more than you want and settle for what you want. This way both parties "win". It's a negotiation and the better prepared you are the better the outcome. You can't do that with everything but use it where you can.
My ex ran away in 2007. The first few years were the toughest for me because I was still emotionally attached and didn't make clear headed decisions. My ex was very good at keeping off balance. She could argue in circles to the point I forgot what the original discussion was about. I decided the only form of communication that would work for me was email.
How old are the kids ? If they are old enough they may have some say in court. Our boys were 4.5 and 7.5 when ex ran away. Back then the courts used the tender year doctrine, which is not supposed to be used, and let me see them EOW. It wasn't until 2010 when I filed to modify custody. My petition said that I was helping the boys with their school work and mom was not. Ex delayed as long as legally possible but never changed her behavior. I copied every homework for two plus years. The pile was around 8 or 9 inches tall. I put everything on a single sheet of paper: total number of homeworks, number done at dad's, number done at mom's, number of incomplete at dad's (zero), number of incomplete at mom's (about half). It turned out the boys did around 90 or 95 % of all their school work when with me. Before the judge walked into the courtroom ex's lawyer proposed giving exactly what I was asking for as far as time.
I look at it now and realize that if, instead of a divorce, my ex passed away I would still have needed the time to adjust emotionally to help our boys. It is a process.

[livednlearned]

There is a video page on Eddy's site (highconflictinstitute.com) that seems to have it. The first ones are rather expensive ($60 for 60 minutes, but those look to be for professionals and lawyers. I think the one I saw is the one on divorce mediation for $9.95 (5th one when you scroll down the page): www.highconflictinstitute.com/video

And actually, I think he included the one "R U Talking to the Wrong Brain" in the session I saw with him (down at the bottom). His visual aid (two parts of the brain) helped me think about BPD in a new way.

There is also this free one, on pre-mediation coaching that might be useful (I haven't watched it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er5OeJ9IJRI

There's also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QZK66lCKtc

Hope that helps!

LnL

[Deb]

You might want to ask for more than you want and settle for what you want. This way both parties "win". It's a negotiation and the better prepared you are the better the outcome. You can't do that with everything but use it where you can.

Sluggo.  david has good advoce here. One thing I have heard is ask for some things that you don't particularly care about so you can compromise on those things and the PD person sees it as a winj. But have some things that you are firm on and won't give up.

[Sluggo]

Thank you... .  I am in mediation now... .  Just offered a first proposal to get time with the kids just to guidelines for until a final decree is ordered and eval is back. 

Fingers crossed... .

[livednlearned]

Keep in mind that what you agree to becomes the default. Meaning, what you decide now is what the judge will order ESPECIALLY because it represents what you both found acceptable (even if your plan might be to let the judge decide later).

In other words, do not agree to anything less than what you want for the long term! Judges take very seriously what is decided in mediation. The word "temporary" is a big fat lie in family court.

[Sluggo]

They are saying this is for the contempt issues... .   I have asked this at least 10 times... .    We are still waiting for the custody evaluation which should be out in 4-8 weeks which hopefully will give me more ... . 

Do you think I am being misled now?

[livednlearned]

They are saying this is for the contempt issues... .   I have asked this at least 10 times... .    We are still waiting for the custody evaluation which should be out in 4-8 weeks which hopefully will give me more ... . 

Do you think I am being misled now?

Do you want to agree before you have received the custody eval? That would make me nervous. What does your lawyer say?

[Sluggo]

Do you want to agree before you have received the custody eval? That would make me nervous. What does your lawyer say?

Thank you for the suggestion.  I had the BPD website up during the breaks of mediation.  The mediator pushed very hard to get me to agree to less than guidelines for the amended prelim order.  It still wasn't even minimum state guidelines.  I made that mistake at the first hearing of agreeing to something that my wife wanted and my lawyer said it was good (I left that lawyer that same day after I signed the prelim order). 

My lawyer was supportive saying if you want to walk 'then we will walk'.  I have 2 special needs kids (of 7) and my wife has this 'new fear' of me having those 2 at my house even if a nurse is present.  In reality, I think it is her trump card she is using to keep those 2 at the house and keeping control.  There was never this fear before even when she was visiting her family for extended stays with me at home with them. 

I did not accept the offer (only to see 5 of the kids) and not all 7.  I said I would accept it if I got all the kids but wife said no.  Mediator mentioned that she dysregulated while with her trying to get her to accept the offer to see all 7 kids.  I am glad her lawyer saw that as they said wife was very calm up to that point.  I said to wait until we got the final custody eval.

That was a big step for me to stand up for what I thought was right and fair with the kids.  Especially with the mediator pushing so hard. 

[livednlearned]

That was a big step for me to stand up for what I thought was right and fair with the kids.  Especially with the mediator pushing so hard. 

Good for you Sluggo 

It's hard to change old habits, and mediation can be so stressful. Feel proud that you stood firm.

The mediator in my situation pushed, too. I think their agenda is to reach whatever percent settlement they can, so they can say "I'm able to mediate 85 % of my cases." It's how their reputations are made. So yeah, great that they can settle all those cases, but not necessarily great when you're the guy not seeing 2 of your 7 kids 

What happens next for you?

[david]

Sounds positive to me. Yes, it will drag out longer but you made a reasonable stand for the kids.

When we went to court, after mediation, my ex proposed exactly what I was seeking. This made her "look good" or "win" in court. My ex disagrees with anything I suggest. After some time she usually makes it her idea and suggests it as her own idea. I just agree and don't point out the obvious. I have evidence to show it was my idea originally (in an email) so I am not concerned about anything she may try in court. I think she knows that too so she doesn't push it.

[ForeverDad]

I have 2 special needs kids (of 7) and my wife has this 'new fear' of me having those 2 at my house even if a nurse is present.  In reality, I think it is her trump card she is using to keep those 2 at the house and keeping control.  There was never this fear before even when she was visiting her family for extended stays with me at home with them.

I did not accept the offer (only to see 5 of the kids) and not all 7.  I said I would accept it if I got all the kids but wife said no.  Mediator mentioned that she dysregulated while with her trying to get her to accept the offer to see all 7 kids.  I am glad her lawyer saw that as they said wife was very calm up to that point.  I said to wait until we got the final custody eval.

Good that you refused to let the kids be separated in an agreement/order.  Sorry, but Hayley Mills in The Parent Trap was a funny family movie, not reality.  This can be one of your major boundaries, "I will never split up the kids in an agreement."

Her 'new fear' may be real to her - who can know for sure her perceptions - but the reality is that it is at some level just posturing during this contentious mediation & court time.  It is her leverage, as in "I am Mother and I have to protect my babies" from abuse, neglect or endangerment.  Um, you're Father, not an ATM machine.  Problem is, this was her masthead once the separation & divorce occurred.  In my case, my Ex never made allegations until we separated.  I believe that weakened her claims.

I am with the others, you don't have to agree to anything less than you feel is proper and best for your children.  Yes, court could side with the court's usual outcomes and default preferences, but the odds are high that you'd get more from the court than from an obstructive and 'stuck' stbEx.  As an example, the court is unlikely to split the kids if both parents are not in agreement.  It may set some ground rules and protections for their care, but the courts like to keep the kids together as much as possible.

[david]

FD reminded me of something that happened in court back in 2008 or 2009. Ex was willing to separate our boys. Our oldest was starting to question and challenge his mom's perceptions at that time. Ex didn't like it and offered to have him live with me. She never asked for even a single day to see him. She was then willing to let me see our youngest EOW. I stood firm and said no.
At the end of the hearing the judge said two things. One, he was NEVER going to separate children in a custody issue. He looked at me when he was saying it and it appeared that he was pretty angry with me. I never figured out if he was confused as to who suggested that or he just wanted to make it look like I was being yelled at and ex would view that as a win. Two, he gave us two weeks to hand in a proposal for custody. He would then look at both and make a decision within a week. I handed in a very specific plan with 13 points spelled out precisely. My first point was that I simply was granted primary custody. Ex handed in a two page rant about how I was an abusive spouse and parent. He denied the first point but copied and pasted the other 13 points exactly as I wrote them. The 13 points actually gave me more than 50/50 by a slim margin.

[Sluggo]

Lnl,

I'm able to mediate 85 % of my cases." It's how their reputations are made.  What happens next for you?

  Yes I felt like she was trying to sell me on something to get a commission, like going to a time share sales pitch.  The mediator also mentioned a few times that she didn't want to break her record (I assume she was referring to the number of cases mediated). 

The lawyers and mediator called again yesterday and asked to get something on the table to discuss.  My wife came back with something that was very restrictive and would be less time than I have right now and said she wanted that to be the permanent times to seem them.  The lawyers called the judge and said that the judge is very angry at us.  He is angry that we signed an order at the prelim that we don't know what it meant.  Judge told them that he is going to make it hard on both parents and they are going to wish they had come to an agreement.  We have a contempt hearing that was scheduled a couple months ago this week.  The hearing is picking up where we left off on the last contempt hearing which did not finish.   Not sure what will happen. 

My understanding that her lawyer is submitting something to the court to be taken off the case.  Custody evaluator said she will have the report done first week of December. 

FD,

This can be one of your major boundaries, "I will never split up the kids in an agreement."

  Yes that is a good point.  I do think my wife may be nervous in a real sense which is feeding off her paranoid traits (she was diagnosed with also).   But you are right it is her leverage and trump card. 

David,

He denied the first point but copied and pasted the other 13 points exactly as I wrote them. The 13 points actually gave me more than 50/50 by a slim margin.

  David that is a good idea.  I am going to suggest that to my lawyer and put it out on the table if need be.  We can actually come up with two different proposals so judge can see where we are.  I would be interested in reading the 13 points that you had.  Is that something you feel comfortable sharing? 

thank you all. 

[ForeverDad]

The lawyers called the judge and said that the judge is very angry at us.  Judge told them that he is going to make it hard on both parents and they are going to wish they had come to an agreement.

If you two can't come to agreement and it is the Ex's unreasonable stance, then it's not your fault.  However, the judge may figuratively give you both a tongue lashing, then make a decision (or guide the outcome) that leans toward the more reasonable requests (yours).  Judges don't want to be accused of favoritism so they'll often admonish both.  It may work for your Ex since your Ex seeing you admonished too may think she won even though you walked out with something better than what you would ever have gotten out of your Ex.

He is angry that we signed an order at the prelim that we don't know what it meant.

Try as best you can to show that it is your Ex twisting the order to her favor.  This is an example of the risks making agreements.  If the Ex makes pretzel logic and you have to fix it in court, the court can question why you agreed to it before.  Especially this can happen if you agreed to less time and now want more time.  The court could ask why you AGREED to less time before.  You better have good reasons.  Did circumstances change?  Did Ex make exchanges more difficult?  Did the loopholes she's trying to use only become apparent afterward?

That's why if Ex wants more time now, even temporarily in the interim order, you should not agree to it.  A consideration is whether you get something substantial in return.  No "gifts" since an acting-out disordered stbEx is very unlikely to reciprocate now or later.   What you gift away now will be difficult to recover later.

That her lawyer is asking to be released from the case speaks volumes to the judge, even if the judge shows no such indication.  However, it will likely create another continuance, delaying the case again.  If you can, get the prelim agreement fixed.  In my case we had a temp order (temp = two years!) that was firmly in my Ex's favor and twice the court had a clear opportunity to make adjustments in my favor but just kicked the can down the road to the final decree.

[livednlearned]

The lawyers called the judge and said that the judge is very angry at us.  He is angry that we signed an order at the prelim that we don't know what it meant.

That makes me mad just reading it! The judge is angry because the law is completely baffling when you walk into it for the first time? I mean, gah. Where does their compassion go?

Judge told them that he is going to make it hard on both parents and they are going to wish they had come to an agreement.  We have a contempt hearing that was scheduled a couple months ago this week.  The hearing is picking up where we left off on the last contempt hearing which did not finish.   Not sure what will happen.

Judges get used to seeing people in court who can't solve their own problems. Probably, that's a majority of their cases, and if Bill Eddy is right, it's the 20 percent of high conflict cases that take up 80 percent of the court's time. Imagine seeing a stream of people with PDs in your office every day, day after day. I imagine that's what it's like, and it makes them treat their cases like everyone is a child.

I went into every court hearing like I understood the difficulty of the judge's job, always trying to think of a solution. I did not let ex get me upset, I just tried to calmly and assertively move forward and keep my focus on what was best for S15. Try to do the same, as hard as it may be. Lawyers and judges and mediators need to know that you are certain you understand what is best for the kids, and that you have reasonable solutions to the problems they don't really want to be deciding for you.

If it helps, the judge scolded me in my case almost every hearing, and still ruled in my favor. I think part of it is to make sure there is no record of favoritism, which is something in my state that can be used to overturn a ruling and used in an appeal. Judges are considered the "supreme" witness in a case, their ruling is a form of testimony based on what they witness in court.

Don't let this theater unnerve you or make you doubt what you are doing. Try to see that the judges and lawyers are working for you, and are on your side. They just don't know it, and you have to persuade them that you are the problem solver and reasonable person in this case.

My understanding that her lawyer is submitting something to the court to be taken off the case.

 

This also happened to my ex. His lawyer had to file a motion to withdraw from my ex's case. It can happen when a client expresses no confidence in the lawyer, or takes action to undermine the lawyer's counsel. In our cases, it can mean that the client is pretty unreasonable and the lawyer knows it.

Hang in there, friend. You are doing the right thing for your kids.

[david]

My 13 points spelled out in detail how every holiday was handled. I split the holidays 50/50 rotating them year to year. I also switched major holidays so if one parent had Christmas the other had Thanksgiving that year. I checked every school holiday, inservice, etc. The major holidays during the school year, Thanksgiving week, Christmas week, and Easter week were split 50/50. If there was an odd number of days the extra day was rotated year to year. The holidays were several of the points and the judge put it all together as one point.
 
All communication was to be done through email and the reply had to be done within 48 hours. Ex has disregarded the 48 hour time several times but I never made a big deal of it since it was infrequent and not urgent.

Any changes to the custody order must be done through email. Both parents must agree through their respective emails. Once an agreement is reached it can not be changed unless another email is made with both parties agreeing to the additional change. I make sure whenever this happens I spell out in my email that this is a one time change and not to be taken as a permanent change.
 
Summer schedule is week on week off. Parents are to take vacation with the children during that time. Parents must notify each other ten days in advance of where they will be staying- phone number and address is required. Summer schedule must be agreed upon at least three weeks prior to the beginning of the summer schedule. My ex liked to wait until the day before.

Parents have roadside pickup. The parent picking up the children must call the other parents cell phone when she/he arrives and wait until voicemail turns on, hang up, and wait for 5 minutes. The parent is expected to have the children ready at the agreed upon time. I don't get real touchy about the 5 minutes.
 
If either parent relocates it is the responsibility of that parent to notify the other parent sufficiently in advance.

Each parent shall give the other parent the right of first refusal if they are unavailable to care for the children. Mother and Father shall agree by email. Once an agreement is reached, any additional changes must be agreed upon by both parents in an email. Unilateral changes are not permitted.
 
The minor children's possessions belong to the children and can follow the children without restriction.

"The judge is very angry at us". I take that as the judge is trying to induce both to come to an agreement. If you are being reasonable and trying to come to an agreement and the other party is not then I would not be too worried about court.

Having a proposal which is viewed as reasonable is a good strategy for court. Remember if the judge gives you what you are seeking and yells at you in court take that as a good thing. I've been yelled at around 5 or 6 times and every one of those times I got exactly what I was asking the court. In fact, I looked forward to being yelled at since that meant things were going my way since I was not being unreasonable and ex was.

[ForeverDad]

My custody evaluator recommended children 10 and under have split weeks if equal time.  He described the 2/2/3 order as one parent gets Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent gets Wed-Thu overnights and the 3 overnight weekends are alternated.  That way the child is never more than 5 days apart from either parent.  I had wanted alternating weeks as David mentioned since my Ex created conflict at many exchanges and I was desperate to reduce that conflict but he said to wait until child was older.  I chose Wed-Thu for multiple reasons but primarily so that I would have children at end of week so I was more confident school assignments had been completed.

If you are struggling to get more than minimal time, you can be honest with the judge (consult lawyer first on what to say and what Not to say) that you weren't aware of all the ramifications, not aware that court could be inclined to see the initial status as a long term solution, you thought an interim order would just be for a short time and not as long as it has turned out to be, that there was a lot of conflict with stbEx and you were trying to avoid conflict, not aware how stbEx would try to sabotage your parenting time with the children, etc.

[Sluggo]

FD,

However, the judge may figuratively give you both a tongue lashing, then make a decision (or guide the outcome) that leans toward the more reasonable requests (yours).  Judges don't want to be accused of favoritism

  I see that as a theme in all of the other responses also.  That is good to know.

If you are struggling to get more than minimal time 

I was so stupid to agree to less than minimal time at the prelim hearing.  I really had no idea what I was doing and my lawyer said 'it isn't your best day and it isn't your worst day'.   I asked him his opinion and he said it would be ok and we can go back in 2-3 weeks to get it increases.  10 months later I still have the same order. Overall,  lawyer was wrong, it was my worst day.    I am not sure what malpractice look like, but it feels like it was.  I did drop him and he did refund a good portion of what he charged me. 

Lnl,

Lawyers and judges and mediators need to know that you are certain you understand what is best for the kids, and that you have reasonable solutions to the problems they don't really want to be deciding for you

.   Yes thank you.  I keep that top of mind that 'I understand what is best for the kids'.  Doing it in a calm and reasonable manner.  I am pretty passive person and learned to be extremely passive with my wife.  So when we were negotiating on Friday my lawyer saw me talking with passion and telling them what I thought was right.  Funny thing is that if I ever would have talked to my wife with that way ... .without being punished be days or weeks without her talking to me.   I wasn't rude but I was very direct and animated.  However, I could never ever think of talking to my wife like that without the consequences.  It felt reassuring not to feel 'abandoned' by the lawyer after that day.  I apologized later and my lawyer was cool with it and said feel free to get mad at me, I can take it.  These are your kids and I understand that. 

David

13 points spelled out in detail how every holiday was handled

, thank you for those points.  I am happy that it seems our state has some very detailed guidelines on holidays which I can use.  I like how you stated the roadside pick ups and children's possessions belong to the children and can follow the children without restrictions.  As I mentioned before it seems like a common theme of the judge being Angry.  I can  appreciated what LnL said saying probably 80% of their files are probably PD issues.