oh dear, what now?

[formflier]

(i mean, either way that has me being a horrible person right? 

Focus back on wacky colored grass.  Really focus on realizing this is another persons thought process. 

Odd grass and you being a horrible person are the same type of thought.

Someone else's thought... .

You have a choice to take that thinking on board in your life... .or leave that thinking to them.

They also have a choice.

Perhaps something to think about:  How does your life change if person X believes you are a horrible person or if person X thinks you walk on water?  How does this change how you see yourself?

You are on the right track here... .

FF

[icky]

: ). yup, i totally agree. it's a great opportunity for personal growth and insight and learning! . at the same time tho, it's also a question of "do i want person x to by my partner, or part of my inner circle?". it doesn't matter to me (much) if some arbitrary person thinks grass is purple/ i'm horrible/ i'm fantastic. but it does kind of matter to me, what my partner thinks. . i realise that one some levels, it shouldn't matter to me what my partner thinks! : ). but then, given that i choose my partner, wouldn't i choose a partner who thinks stuff that i kinda agree with/ like/ respect? i mean, i can radically accept that my (soon-to-be-ex?)partner (let's call him chris) thinks the grass is purple/ i'm horrible/ i'm fantastic. i can accept that chris has BPD and thinks these things. but given that he does think these things, i'm not sure i want him to be my partner. does that make sense?

[formflier]

Yes... .your train of thought makes sense.


But... .


It is likely more useful to focus on how they behave.

Why?  In the end... .will you ever really know what they think?  Really?

FF

[icky]

hahahaha - true : ). as my pwBPD and i were fighting horribly these past few weeks, i remember saying that if we want to turn this around and make it something good, we're both going to have to let go of our previous assumptions and expectations of "what a relationship is/ how a relationship works" and agree on some new definition, that we come up with together. so yeah, if i choose that i want to make this relationship work, i'm going to have to let go of soo much of what i previously assumed about relationships. maybe letting go of the idea that i (kinda) know what my partner thinks about some things is one of the things i need to let go of : ). feels loopy to me, but in a fun way. .

[formflier]

With pwBPD... .you are likely being told what they really think and feel.  The odd part to us is they Chang very quickly and many times don't remember how they used to feel.  Sometimes claiming they never felt how they said they felt.


It can be mind boggling. 

Have you noticed this pattern?

FF

[waverider]

Compulsive projection of Intent is a real issue. ie its not what you say or do, but the intent they insist you assigned to those words/actions.

"You must think I am XYZ to say that"... That was their thought not yours, but they are assigning (projecting) that thought as being yours. Employing defective mind reading skills using their own dysfunctional points of reference.

It is a compulsive action because they "have to" determine a motive behind things, taking things at face value is hard to do.

[icky]

. With pwBPD.you are likely being told what they really think and feel.  The odd part to us is they Chang very quickly and many times don't remember how they used to feel.  Sometimes claiming they never felt how they said they felt. It can be mind boggling.  . Have you noticed this pattern? FF.

. well... i think that BPD is all about the emotional level. i think it's very little about a thinking/ logical level. so my BPD partner will say stuff cos that's what he feels in that minute. and if he feels differently 2 minutes later, he will say that stuff. and if it's the opposite of how he felt 2 mins earlier, then yup, what he says will totally contradict what he said 2 mins ago. . the thing is that feelings are not consistent. they flip-flop and ricochet all over the place. feelings are transient and fleeting and a dime a dozen. thoughts, on the other hand, are more consistent. we don't change our thoughts about things radically from one minute to another. i think the confusion is that feelings=FACTS thing that BPD people do. instead of expressing their "feeling", they voice it as a "fact" or as their "thoughts". this is very confusing to an onlooker. because we are all aware that thoughts do not change that quickly . it's hard to remind yourself that the "facts" and "thoughts" being expressed are actually feelings - which may change within the space of 30 seconds

[waverider]

Thats lack of a core sense to give those thoughts a structure or point of reference. So they bounce around like so many independent reactions without any constancy.

It shows in an inability weigh up pros and cons in parallel before making decisions. Rather they think of them in series and make conclusions after each individual thought, without taking on board the previous thoughts on the same subject

[icky]

yeah. : ). thank you so much for your calm, intelligent, gentle insights. just as the saying "it takes a village to raise a child" goes... i think it takes a village to cope with a BPD person well and to maintain healthy dynamics for both the BPD and the non . thanks for being part of my village!

[icky]

so. this is Day 4 of my "ohhh it's BPD" journey. it's saturday and on monday i'll be talking to my BPD (ex?) partner chris again. we're currently having a few days of NC, cos the fighting has been so crap/ confused/ circular recently. i've had a lot of time to think during these days, which has been great. now that i've (partly) got my head around this BPD stuff, i kind of look forward to talking to him on monday, because i know it won't be crazy-confusing BPD fighting now. now that i know what is going on, i can either a) approach it calmly and constructively or b) decline to engage in BPD stuff and feel okay because i know it's not personal and that's it's "just BPD" and he's not actually completely bonkers. so i feel a big sense of relief about that. and i'm kind of looking forward to seeing how he and i can work on these BPD things. (i say kind of, cos it's just been too many eggshells recently - i'm exhausted and drained). which is why i'm also wary/ anxious about talking to him on monday. it's going to be so much (emotional) work. and there'll be soo much BPD stuff to deal with. and i'll have to stay grounded and remind myself not to take it personally. and i'm going to need a lot of patience. cos 80% of what he and i talk about in the days ahead will be about his needs and his emotions and his stuff. i'll need to make do with 20% for my stuff for now and then increase that share over time, once the most important groundwork has been done. any ideas/ suggestions on how to stay grounded when the BPD stuff starts up again on monday would be much appreciated : ). (obviously sharing here and having a BPD-support village to be a member of is a fantastic way of staying grounded). over time, i think i'll be okay with this. but at the moment i feel emotionally fragile due to the harrowing last 6 months, which have left me feeling vulnerable, raw, apprehensive, etc.

[waverider]

Dont try to address everything at once, or attempt to sound like a therapist.

You are listening with new ears rather than speaking with a new language.

[icky]

ooh good point : ). thank you!

[formflier]

Another tip to stay grounded is to realize that you understand what it is... .AND IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU.

Think hard about Waverider's comment to listen with new ears. 

You are responsible for your understanding.  You are NOT responsible for your partners.

No need to explain or mention all this new insight that you have to your partner. 

Listen to you partner, make sure you understand.  If pestered for an immediate answer... .defer... .it's important for you to "think things through". 

Stay chill... .it's not about you.

FF

[icky]

. beautiful  . thank you : )

[Zinnia21]

Compulsive projection of Intent is a real issue. ie its not what you say or do, but the intent they insist you assigned to those words/actions.

It is a compulsive action because they "have to" determine a motive behind things, taking things at face value is hard to do.

Hi hmmmmm!
I'm reading your story and relating! Took me a while to work out it was BPD doing the crazy making. My BPD ex also had his first major meltdown over 18 months in, after being the man of my dreams for the initial phase.

The above quote by waverider is so key! No matter how hard I tried, and how much logic I presented, he was relentless in digging for a negative motive on my part. So true that they struggle with trusting and taking things at face value. It causes so much trouble if they can't get a diagnosis and work on that part of things.

[Zinnia21]

... .that being said, it's your own special journey with its own individual outcome. Explore all options, feel your way through it, keep talking. It's a very unique thing that many friends and family will not truly understand unless they've been through it.
It's a strange and complicated beast, this BPD! Sounds like you have strength and good boundaries and a decent sense of self. Whatever you decide to do, stay true to that logic and sense of self, it sounds like you are. That's a good place to start when exploring your options:)

[icky]

: ). hey zinnia. thank you so much for your kind thoughts and words. it's so good to be surrounded by people here, who understand.

[icky]

as monday is fast approaching. (the day BPD partner and i decided to talk, after a few days of NC to calm the fighting)... i want to look back on the (BPD)-relationship-so-far. i've already emailed my contribution to tomorrow's talk to my partner. (he won't read it til tomorrow, and i wanted to write calmly and gently and not send a clumsy email from work, when i'll be distracted). as i prepare myself for his response, i want to look back on the relationship through a BPD lense. (looking at it from my perspective is only giving me half the answers). so, BPD partner (chris) and i met as we were both leaving long-term relationships. however, neither of us was looking for a new relationship. i know chris from high school (25 years ago) tho we weren't close back then. it was a coincidence that we got in touch and we started out as acquaintances and then friends, really enjoying the friendship and how much we had in common. the friendship grew into love and we had an incredibly sweet courtship phase and gently fell in love in the sweetest way i've ever been in love. (but y'all know the BPD idealization phase, so that's no news to anyone here). chris had an incredibly challenging up-bringing tho he always says he's fine and that other people had it a lot worse - which i partly admire in him and partly think he's avoiding/ not addressing his childhood trauma, which is a concern. i think chris has mild BPD btw, and he's also very high-functioning. i mention the mild thing, because his first serious relationship after high school was with a massively BPD girl, who did every BPD behaviour imaginable including cheating on him with his best friend, which massively damaged his trust in relationships (to this day). to compensate, he married a girl who i would describe as having a mild form of aspergers / autism maybe? she's very bland and non-threatening and unemotional and it seems that's what he needed to get by. they have two children (10 and 12). they've separated but are still "co-habiting" in different buildings on a large farm, for the kids. i totally approve of him doing that, for the kids. he and i are both children-of-divorce ourselves, so we both know how important it is to look after the kids. i'm also not jealous re his ex, so i don't mind the living arrangement. chris and i have a long distance relationship for lots of reasons - jobs, finances, his kids etc and it will be a couple of years yet, before we're able to move together (if that's how this relationship ends up progressing, now that all this BPD stuff has gone on). chris knows he has issues, but his stance is that "everyone has issues" (very true!) and hence he doesn't need to do therapy etc (not so true). his stance is that if only i would be the perfect partner for him then everything would be fiiiiiiiiine and perfect (and then he'd never have any problems or issues ever again and hence also never need to do therapy). errrr... sure.     : ). he's a very sweet and gentle soul and i love him very much. however, the past 6 months have seen his BPD behaviour getting more weird, more intense, more demanding, more unhealthy, more abusive. during those six months i was really freaked out by the total and utter lack of self-awareness he has about these things and how he manages to JUSTIFY every single bit of it. having said that, i must point out the following:. during the past 6 months of weird BPD stuff, i had NOO idea what was going on. so i kept saying to him "what the heck? what the heck? what the heck are you DOING?". haha. i was very vocal and critical about "what on EARTH are these bizarre and unhealthy behaviours that you are doing?". not the "best" approach : ). but i didn't know any better - i had noo idea at the time that it was BPD. and given we'd tumbled straight out of the idealization phase into the BPD weirdness, i really was totally disoriented and wondering what on EARTH was going on. so my behaviour of criticising him for this BPD weirdness has not exactly been a condusive atmosphere in which he could admit/ face/ reflect on his issues/ problems/ behaviours. i can understand that he's been defensive and has said that he's "fine" and that his behaviour is "fine" and that i should quit bugging him. however... i truly do wonder whether there will be much change in that, now that i'm being more gentle and aware about the BPD stuff, but am still settling gentle-but-firm boundaries. i do think that the most likely outcome is that he'll now split me into black and i'll be the big disappointment who didn't love him as he deserves to be loved. i know he put a lot of hope into this relationship. and i know he thinks that loving me in a BPD way is "fine" and "normal" and "healthy". and i know he's deeply disappointed that i don't agree with that. he has invested a lot of himself in our relationship - i know that. and i have done the same. i don't know whether his BPD is mild enough that patience, love, understanding and therapy can fix it enough to make this relationship healthy and viable. or whether his BPD is strong enought that he will be forced to save himself emotionally, which will involve discarding this relationship which has now become too challenging, difficult, upsetting for him. i've been careful all along, to set gentle, healthy, firm boundaries. because there were red flags, quite early on. i just didn't know what they were red flags for - i knew something was the matter - i didn't know it was BPD. i really care about him and i see how much he struggles and i admire him so much for how well he does - he's really a great person, except for the BPD stuff. ironically, the red flags early on gave me a strong sense that i might just be a security blanket for him for a while. at the time, i thought "maybe he's just rebounding from his failed marriage and just needs someone to be there for him for a while and to hold him and love him til he's regained his strength". i was aware of that and i made my peace with it - and i told him too. i said if it's part of my life journey to hold him and to love him during this part of his life journey, then it's an honour, cos he's such a beautiful person and i love him and he loved me genuinely too. so i know i can make peace with that - i've had people love me and help me and be there for me in my life, when i've needed it and i don't mind passing that on . at the end of my life, i'll look back on this gladly and will be happy to have loved him gently as best i could

[icky]

so, as monday approaches, i need to stop seeing all of this (our relationship) through my logic/ thinking lense. i need to view it through the lense of emotion, so that i can understand where he is at. logic has nothing to do with this (for him). i feel like i'll be learning a new culture/ language. a culture and language based on emotion, with logic removed. i don't mind trying to learn that - it'll be an interesting growth experience and i love making my brain learn totally new stuff : ). it's going to be tricky tho! i know how challenging learning a new language and culture is and how long it takes and how much work it requires to get it even half right.

[icky]

i know it took a lot of courage for him to reach out and trust me (even just as a security blanket). he's so scared of getting into a damaging relationship, that he had been struggling by on his own, in his wrecked safe-but-emotional-vacuum marriage, desparately hoping to find someone to connect to safely. i do wonder about his marriage - i realise his ex is even more deeply damaged than he is. but his BPD must have contributed to the damage in that marriage too. i wish i could see them interact! that would give me soo much more information. after this "ohhh it's BPD" epiphany - i really wonder who he is? did i really know him, so far? he's basically a kid right? he survived his childhood trauma as best he could. got into a very damaging relationship with an extremely BPD girl. . decided to opt for the safety of someone really bland who also was seeking the safety of "let's just have our own little family with kids and play happy families and everything will be okay". experienced the horror of his marriage failing and becoming emotionally abusive, which will have worsened his BPD, with lots of dysregulation. he works professionally, very high-functioning and is very proud of the great work he does there. now his focus is on helping his kids grow up. tho he is so close to having a major nervous breakdown and so desparate to feel safe and stable, that he's said he would walk away from his kids, if only i could offer him the safety and stability he needs (i have declined that - i want him to look after his kids and i can't offer him an idealized, fairy-tale relationship). he's probably kind of at a crossroads. he's been close to breaking down for the couple of years before he and i met, as his marriage was failing ever more badly. the idealization phase of our relationship helped stabilise him - he was doing well during that time. the past 6 months he's been dysregulating and having melt-downs, tantrums, sobbing fits... before i realised that it was BPD, i did think he was having nervous breakdowns. (tho they seemed like rather weird nervous breakdowns, to me). maybe this'll be a chance for him. i'm the first person to have loved him gently and calmly and safely and to have set healthy boundaries. he's taking this as an opportunity to try and turn it into a fairytale thing, so he doesn't have to face any of his issues. (living like that is obviously not an option for me). so i'm hoping he'll instead use this as a growth opportunity and to start healing from his trauma and to slowly, gently move forward towards something more healthy. i can "understand" that all he wants to do is huddle in the safety of the security blanket that is our relationship and that he just desparately "wants everything to be okay". i really regret the inadvertant damage that's been done these past six months. me not knowing it was BPD had me reacting in non-supportive ways, which will have scared him and made him feel lonely and misunderstood and unloved.

[icky]

so, i've sent the most gentle, caring, compassionate, understanding, supportive, calm, accepting email i was able to write, to my partner. it's 10 hours before i can realistically expect a reply. (he won't check his mails til he is at work and i wanted to write my mail today (sunday) so i wouldn't be writing a difficult, sensitive email during my work time). i did mention the BPD thing. i know, i know. don't mention the war! i mentioned it as gennnnnnnnntly as i could. and it may be unwise to have done it. but where i currently stand, i don't have the inner wisdom to find a way without mentioning it. maybe over time, i will be able to yield on this point and let it go. at this point, however, i need some sign of self-awareness, after the harrowing 6 months we've had. my partner has what i would say is mild BPD. i've certainly not experienced the absolute nightmares of abuse, cheating, insanity that many here have gone through with a BPD partner. i still found 6 months of "mild" BPD behaviour harrowing tho - cos i did not know what it was, so it totally freaked me out. self-awareness is really important to me in a partner, so i've risked gently mentioning the BPD thing, tho i've taken as much of Dr Xavier Amador's advice on board as I can and been as gentle and as non-confrontational about it, as i can muster at this point of our BPD journey:. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy.

[icky]

i brought home work to do over the weekend and i need to get it done. and it would be good to do it, to distract myself for the next 10 hours while i wait for an email reply. i don't know how to concentrate on work stuff tho, with all this BPD stuff going on. the work i have brought home is really complicated and i need to be really focussed and deal with about 3 or 4 levels of stuff that all needs to be brought together to inter-relate correctly. my brain, however, feels like a wad of chewing gum, that's been chewed for too long. : P

[Renard]

hmmmmm, your words about your brain being overworked ring true. I wish for the very best result for your email. I would call my ex also high functioning and very mild borderline also, but even so I was also freaked out by way she was melting. I also am in a long distance relationship. Last weekend, she called and was sobbing and in distress: she asked me to take her to the hospital because she was in such rough shape. I dropped everything and flew to where she lives. We went, but as we were walking to the emergency area, she said "don't touch me, I'll scream and slap you if you touch me." We got to the admitting area, and she immediately said she was in "abusive relationship" with me. The hospital staff told me to "step back," which is what I did. I could hear her saying she needed to escape me. She was admitted because she went through another panic attack at that moment, but that's the last time I saw her. She was out of the hospital the next day and ended our relationship via text and phone calls. She still leaves angry shouting messages saying that I am slandering the most loving, wonderful, brilliant, hardworking, patient man she has ever met. Unfortunately, I have never met this person, but I can tell she has split me black and him white. In hindsight, I know now that she is borderline.

Our relationship was always an incredibly tender one--never abusive, never angry. I am a very gentle person, so I am still lost as to what happened except to say that the disorder has taken over and that I'm done for now because I'm black and he is white.

hmmmmm, I know I wrote lots of detail, but I think I can see what you're going through. Because I did not go through some of the major trauma others write about (during the good years) and because things ended so swiftly I thought you might want to hear more from me. Your situation sounds rather similar.

Again, come what may, I wish you peace in all this difficulty.

[icky]

thank you renard - yes, it's so good to know we're not in this alone. i can't believe she asked you to fly out to help her to get to a hospital and then told the hospital you were a threat to her! that is soo nuts it's almost funny, if it weren't so awful. don't worry - her behaviour is not because you've done anything negative. quite the reverse - you have been patient, kind, trustworthy, safe, supporting - which is why she feels safe enough to dysregulate with you. i know that's not the reward you were looking for, for your caring support, but that's how BPD works. it's a sign you supported her beautifully, not that you damaged her

[icky]

still procrastinating doing my work tasks. just had a shower to help me feel fresh and motivated and have put on one of my partner's t-shirts. it's the first time i've been able to do that in about 2 months. because we have a long-distance relationship, we love sharing things like t-shirts, because it feels so close and intimate and cosy. these past 2 months, i have not been able to wear his t-shirts because i felt so unsafe and nothing felt right. it feels good to wear his t-shirt now. it feels peaceful and calm and i genuinely care for him, no matter how this turns out. if the relationship ends, either because we find we're not up to the challenge, or because he ends it because he paints me black in a BPD mentality, i will be there for him as a supportive friend, if he wants (tho in a BPD mindset i think it's unlikely he would want that). going to do some housework to get my brain focussing on stuff and then try and sit down with all my work papers.

[Renard]

hmmmmm, thanks for writing. I really get the long distance thing and clothing.

I am new at this site and just wrote a really lengthy message to you, but I bungled the preview versus post versus back arrow and lost it.

[Renard]

hmmmmm, it looks as though my lengthy post to you is actually lost because of my misnavigation.

[icky]

ahhhh poop  . : P. i know the feeling well - lost posts, lost emails, just before sending. aaaarrrrgh : )

[Renard]

I don't think I can quite reconstruct what I wrote, but here's a sketch. I think I will never hear from my ex again. Her personality is so strong that when she splits, she splits. The guy who I will call S is now her new attachment. Crazily enough, she asked me on the phone just before I flew to see and help her whether I could help her love S. When I tried to sort all that with her--by ultimately saying that it would be best for her to keep things with S professional (he's a colleague of hers) she accused me of being jealous. That accusation ultimately became an accusation that I am slandering S. That's why she says she has left me: I am slandering S.

I need to say that I have never even met S. Because we are in a long distance relationship, I needed to return to my home and work. Last Thursday, she called me. I did not pick up because I had received too many angry shouting calls. In the call she said she was back at the psyc ward, but not as a patient. She said she had evidence there and people there who would "swear" that I was slandering S. More, she had the police with her and they now had the evidence. She told me that unless I called and said "yes or no" that I was slandering S she would take things to court. She also said that "so many people were on the line" so I needed to call. I did not call. That voice message is both balm to me and poison to me. On the one hand, it reminds me that she is trapped in some way by the disorder, and on the other hand it breaks my heart: the woman speaking is using a different voice, and her brilliant beautiful mind is all distorted and lost.

[Renard]

hmmmmm, agreed: ___e!