Revelations, realizations and insights have bought me to my knees

[Depression = 72% of members]

The last couple of months have been interesting.  Revelations, realizations and insights have bought me to my knees.  No, that is not hyperbole.  Things I thought I understood and had covered in terms of grieving have taken on a new color.  I think the new color is a combination of dust and cobwebs, dirt and excrement that has built up.  Not so pretty right?  The work involves not just bringing these boxes full of The Past into the light and doing some dusting before prying off the lid.  Nope, I have had to get out the super soaker for this and blast through the layers of false understanding, false acceptance and the illusion of strength.  To blast through the fact that denial and enmeshment is still so prominent all these years later.  To realize that all the reading, writing and hard emotional work is still so necessary is frustrating and humbling.

In a thread I started back in February of this year, I questioned if I was in denial https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290362.0;all  Yep, I have been.  My belief that on some spiritual level I chose this life and all the experiences I have had is born of my need to feel that I had some control and of my need to feel that there was a greater purpose to all this crap.  Those beliefs allowed me to minimize, deny and remain attached to my parents (now both dead).  Granted, those spiritual beliefs may still be true, but if they are, they are not wrapped up in control and  minimization and enmeshment, all of which have served to keep me firmly buried in the fallacy of The Dream Family and in a state of victimhood <shudders>.

How did I get here?  Well... .More recently, I did a thread about the root of my shame.  It is something that came out in my therapy and seemed like a small detail at first but it turned out to be critical to understanding why I am the way I am.  In the thread,  I talked about how I was raised being told I was special.  This was not a compliment nor was it used to make me feel good.  Instead it was a tool to shame me into believing I was less than, that I was not living up to the full potential that God gave me and that I was a disappointment to both my mother and God.  I was squandering life.  It became the rationale for accepting verbal, emotional sexual abuse and not seeing anything wrong with these things happening to me because that was what it meant to be born special.  It was not okay for these things to happen to other people and they were worth saving and fighting for but these things were my lot in life and to hope for or long for anything different was an affront to God and to the very principles that I tried so hard to uphold.

What a bunch of crap.  It gets even more twisted though.  During one particular therapy session, I was talking about how being special tied into the mother daughter sexual abuse (mdsa) that occurred almost daily until I was in my 30's with the most invasive and offensive and shameful episodes occuring when I was deemed 'good'.  My T had and I had been working on deconstructing the layers of crap and I was finally able to say "I was abused" and "It is not fair" and I came to a conclusion that my T agreed with.  The conclusion was that my mother groomed me.  She freaking groomed me to be her dildo and to accept that as a normal part of my life.  To think nothing wrong of her visits in bed, her grabbing my breasts and playing with them.  Arousing me.  Putting her mouth on me... .in ways she knew I would like and enjoy even as a little kid.

So there I am, sitting in the therapy office with this loud buzzing in my head , seeing my pulse and tears and snot flowing and the first thing out of my mouth?

"I don't think she did it intentionally"

Like intent makes a damn bit of difference.

But it does.  On some level it does matter to me.  I have always known that my mother does not quite fit the BPD label in the more traditional sense but it was enough of a fit that it worked.  I have believed that she could not really regulate and understand her actions because of the very emotional dysregulation that governs the illness.  I have been there myself.  I have heard myself say things and watched myself do things that seem to happen on auto-pilot.  I get the dysregulation.  I do not understand the premeditation.  After saying that I did not think she did it purposely, I explained that she was not a smart woman.  Plus in my mind she was too triggered to plan things that seem, to me, to require a cool head and calculated planning over a long period of time.  It was chilling to envision the label of pedophile hanging around her neck, but I think there is truth there.

Why?  She was capable of not just crafting but maintaining other lies and falsehoods.  Ones that still eat away at me inside and have served to reinforce that 'specialness' that allowed me to accept all sorts of things.

She was able to craft and maintain a lie that stayed consistent over decades that convinced me I was hitting her hard enough to cause bruises on her arms.  Bruises that showed up many times over the years.  Ones that I supposedly inflicted on her but had no memory of doing so.  I was convinced that I was blacking out, hurting her, and was so sick in the head that I was able to block it out of my mind because I had not memory of doing the dastardly deed.  Turns out I did not in fact hit her.  Not ever.  She confessed once, but by then I was in my early thirties and it was too late.  The damage was done.

[Harri]

The last couple of months have been interesting.  Revelations, realizations and insights have bought me to my knees.  No, that is not hyperbole.  Things I thought I understood and had covered in terms of grieving have taken on a new color.  I think the new color is a combination of dust and cobwebs, dirt and excrement that has built up.  Not so pretty right?  The work involves not just bringing these boxes full of The Past into the light and doing some dusting before prying off the lid.  Nope, I have had to get out the super soaker for this and blast through the layers of false understanding, false acceptance and the illusion of strength.  To blast through the fact that denial and enmeshment is still so prominent all these years later.  To realize that all the reading, writing and hard emotional work is still so necessary is frustrating and humbling.

In a thread I started back in February of this year, I questioned if I was in denial https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290362.0;all  Yep, I have been.  My belief that on some spiritual level I chose this life and all the experiences I have had is born of my need to feel that I had some control and of my need to feel that there was a greater purpose to all this crap.  Those beliefs allowed me to minimize, deny and remain attached to my parents (now both dead).  Granted, those spiritual beliefs may still be true, but if they are, they are not wrapped up in control and  minimization and enmeshment, all of which have served to keep me firmly buried in the fallacy of The Dream Family and in a state of victimhood <shudders>.

How did I get here?  Well... .More recently, I did a thread about the root of my shame.  It is something that came out in my therapy and seemed like a small detail at first but it turned out to be critical to understanding why I am the way I am.  In the thread,  I talked about how I was raised being told I was special.  This was not a compliment nor was it used to make me feel good.  Instead it was a tool to shame me into believing I was less than, that I was not living up to the full potential that God gave me and that I was a disappointment to both my mother and God.  I was squandering life.  It became the rationale for accepting verbal, emotional sexual abuse and not seeing anything wrong with these things happening to me because that was what it meant to be born special.  It was not okay for these things to happen to other people and they were worth saving and fighting for but these things were my lot in life and to hope for or long for anything different was an affront to God and to the very principles that I tried so hard to uphold.

What a bunch of crap.  It gets even more twisted though.  During one particular therapy session, I was talking about how being special tied into the mother daughter sexual abuse (mdsa) that occurred almost daily until I was in my 30's with the most invasive and offensive and shameful episodes occuring when I was deemed 'good'.  My T had and I had been working on deconstructing the layers of crap and I was finally able to say "I was abused" and "It is not fair" and I came to a conclusion that my T agreed with.  The conclusion was that my mother groomed me.  She freaking groomed me to be her dildo and to accept that as a normal part of my life.  To think nothing wrong of her visits in bed, her grabbing my breasts and playing with them.  Arousing me.  Putting her mouth on me... .in ways she knew I would like and enjoy even as a little kid.

So there I am, sitting in the therapy office with this loud buzzing in my head , seeing my pulse and tears and snot flowing and the first thing out of my mouth?

"I don't think she did it intentionally"

Like intent makes a damn bit of difference.

But it does.  On some level it does matter to me.  I have always known that my mother does not quite fit the BPD label in the more traditional sense but it was enough of a fit that it worked.  I have believed that she could not really regulate and understand her actions because of the very emotional dysregulation that governs the illness.  I have been there myself.  I have heard myself say things and watched myself do things that seem to happen on auto-pilot.  I get the dysregulation.  I do not understand the premeditation.  After saying that I did not think she did it purposely, I explained that she was not a smart woman.  Plus in my mind she was too triggered to plan things that seem, to me, to require a cool head and calculated planning over a long period of time.  It was chilling to envision the label of pedophile hanging around her neck, but I think there is truth there.

Why?  She was capable of not just crafting but maintaining other lies and falsehoods.  Ones that still eat away at me inside and have served to reinforce that 'specialness' that allowed me to accept all sorts of things.

She was able to craft and maintain a lie that stayed consistent over decades that convinced me I was hitting her hard enough to cause bruises on her arms.  Bruises that showed up many times over the years.  Ones that I supposedly inflicted on her but had no memory of doing so.  I was convinced that I was blacking out, hurting her, and was so sick in the head that I was able to block it out of my mind because I had not memory of doing the dastardly deed.  Turns out I did not in fact hit her.  Not ever.  She confessed once, but by then I was in my early thirties and it was too late.  The damage was done.

[Harri]

Her lies, so consistent over such a long period of time were further reinforced by the gun.  I was around 8 years old or so when she got it and kept it beside her or close by.  She explained it was because she was afraid of my rages.  My anger scared her and she thought I was going to kill her.  She said she would wake up in fear and see me standing over her.  That she could see in my eyes that I wanted her dead.  She would whisper to me and point saying "see that gun Harri?  I have it because of you.  I am watching you".  When she was angry with me and giving me the silent treatment for months at a time, she would cringe away and whimper in fear if I got too close.  i was a kid.  A little kid!  Feeling so hurt and betrayed and so sad.  The very person who was damaging me was the one person I wanted to hug and have hold me and tell the ugly stuff to go away... .but she looked at me with the black eyes.  Those souless chilling eyes.  I can still feel my stomach falling to the ground and that harsh burning aching feeling in the back of my throat. 

All I can picture is me on a beach with a few umbrellas standing there with the stinky sticky crap of this stuff on my hands.  I want to run far and fast.

My T and I figured out that I keep myself away from other people because I am afraid of hurting them and scaring them.  I avoid doint that by isolating and when I can't isolate, I will set things up so that they do not want to be around me.

Last session my T made me look him in the eyes and ask him if he is scared of me.  So I did.  I asked but I did not maintain eye contact so he asked me to do it again.  My response?  I said F-You.  I swear I felt a switch click, when I said it.  I slouched in my chair and scowled.  This has happened before.  Teh adolescent teenager with a bad attitude and rage came out.

I wanted to run but didn't.  I wanted to swear again too but I didn't.  He told me to try again so I did.  He said no all the while looking me in the eyes and not flinching.

He looked at me with such acceptance, gentleness and I think what might be love and I really wanted to run.

I sat there and the tears and snot flowed.

Therapy.  Sucks.

[Panda39]

Harri,

Sending you               

You are doing hard work and good work and the tears if you are like me will validate when you hit on the truth... .I cried every time I had an epiphany of understanding.

Now the snot... .not so sure what that means 

Keep up the good work Harri, it's a process.

Take Care,
Panda39

[Harri]

Panda, thanks so much for the support, encouragement and acceptance.  It means a lot to me.

[Harri]

So while posting this yesterday, I was very aware of the intense emotions running through me.  The high voltage emotions of anger, hurt, rage, fear all converged... .and then there was sweet release just by sticking with it until I was finished.  I find it so helpful to document these things even though I have been through it before, several times.  Each time though is different.  I find different aspects to look at and deeper understanding of the hurt and damage... .and yes, how I was victimized as a child and even as an adult but have survived somehow.

That last part is huge for me to admit and write (without flinching even) and I am celebrating a bit.  Okay, I've written it before (twice I think) but it was always done frantically in an effort to do what I needed to do and to do it very quickly so I could run away even faster.  Last night and today though I am able to sit with that understanding and acceptance and use the words 'damage' and 'victim' without a tone of contempt or sarcasm and without hearing myself saying in my own head 'quit your whining Harri'.  Well, here I am saying it without any of that not even a bit of shame.  There is no joy in it though it is an acomplishment.  I am simply making an acknowledgement and what seems to be acceptance. 

I wonder if the next step is getting a therapy chihuahua... .  Nahhh, I'd much rather have a therapy ferret.  I can see it now with the big eyes, soft fur and a tiny paws wearing a teeny tiny little vest running around, curling up beside me, making me laugh and by doing so acknowledging and legitimizing it's presence in my life.

Okay, now I am just being silly and deflecting the feelings that are rising up within me.  Stop it Harri and get on with it.

I am shocked at the realization that I am a runner.  I cut and run when people get close or even try to get close.  It actually hurt to have my T say No he was not scared of me and to look at me like he did.  Again, it is not the first time I have noticed this.  Previously I thought it was because I was not used to such kindness.  That was only part of it.  I was terrified when he said it.  Still am a bit to be honest.  Surely such acceptance, kindness and love comes with strings attached and all sorts of expectations right?  I mean the next thing I know I am going to have to give away parts of myself again, parts I need to hold onto because they are all I have even though they are damaged and somewhat putrid with all that has come before this point.  How can I possibly share those parts of me?  Surely the fact that they are damaged will cause someone harm right? 

Now part of me is telling myself not to post this.  It is going to be viewed as a whining and poor me post full of drama.  Well, let them view it that way!  What do they know?  Besides, even if it is that kind of post, this will pass Harri.  You know it will.  One glitch does not define the entirety of you.  So take that!  Okay, yeah, that is right.

But wait a minute!  This post definitely is full of red flags and anyone reading this will stay away from me!  Lord knows this place is full of red flag paranoia and here I am waving the red flags right in their faces.  I am literally covered in red flags too!  S'ok Harri... .consider yourself the united nations of red flags.  No biggie right?

Ummmm... .Well... .F-you!  Notice how I capitalize the F?  I did it special just for you.  That's right.  Sarcasm.  Sweet blessed wonderful alienating sarcasm.  It feels good.

And there I go... .running again.

[Kwamina]

Hi Harri

... .with the most invasive and offensive and shameful episodes occuring when I was deemed 'good'.

I think this is very significant. Your mother connected her highly inappropriate and abusive behavior with the label of being 'good'. That's like programming a child to believe that the only way for you to be good is to allow yourself to be abused, thereby setting you up for further abuse.

When I read your post I realized how BPD parents normalize behavior that isn't normal and how this in a way is related to the concept of validation. Your mother validated her own invalid behavior causing you to feel and think it was normal. Marsha Linehan has identified six tips for validating and one of them is normalizing. It however is important not to normalize behavior that is not normal, yet this unfortunately is exactly what your mother did. When I look at my own life one extreme example that I often think of is my oldest sister repeatedly threatening to kill herself. This happened so often that it had become a part of the 'normal' family routine. It bothered me when she did it but didn't shock me and a few years ago I realized how desensitized I had become to these kinds of behavior. My sister acts as if her behavior is normal and so does my mother, while in reality it isn't normal at all yet the two of them validate each other's invalid behavior.

Her lies, so consistent over such a long period of time were further reinforced by the gun.  I was around 8 years old or so when she got it and kept it beside her or close by.  She explained it was because she was afraid of my rages.  My anger scared her and she thought I was going to kill her.  She said she would wake up in fear and see me standing over her.  That she could see in my eyes that I wanted her dead.  She would whisper to me and point saying "see that gun Harri?  I have it because of you.  I am watching you".  When she was angry with me and giving me the silent treatment for months at a time, she would cringe away and whimper in fear if I got too close.  i was a kid.  A little kid!  Feeling so hurt and betrayed and so sad.

You indeed were just a little kid and it is horrible that your mother did this to you. I remember the first time you shared this story about your mother and the gun very well. This behavior of your mother is damaging in many ways. She basically placed a label on you that you were 'evil' and not only capable but desired to kill your mother. That's horrible for a child, nobody wants to be labeled like that and I can imagine how this could cause you to do whatever you could to try to prove to your mother that you aren't this bad person she made you out to be and that you in fact did love here. As a child it sadly is impossible to win when faced with absurd false accusations like this. No matter how much prove you would present it wouldn't matter because your prove was based in the real world while your mother's accusations were based in the alternate reality she had created. Your real prove was not valid in her alternate reality which allowed her to maintain her twisted view of you.

Last session my T made me look him in the eyes and ask him if he is scared of me.  So I did.  I asked but I did not maintain eye contact so he asked me to do it again.
... .
I wanted to run but didn't.  I wanted to swear again too but I didn't.  He told me to try again so I did.  He said no all the while looking me in the eyes and not flinching.

He looked at me with such acceptance, gentleness and I think what might be love and I really wanted to run.

Based on everything you've shared here and in another thread, I must say that I really really like your T!

I find different aspects to look at and deeper understanding of the hurt and damage... .and yes, how I was victimized as a child and even as an adult but have survived somehow.

That last part is huge for me to admit and write (without flinching even) and I am celebrating a bit.
... .
Well, here I am saying it without any of that not even a bit of shame.  There is no joy in it though it is an acomplishment.  I am simply making an acknowledgement and what seems to be acceptance.  

This is significant progress indeed because I know how much you've struggled with coming to terms with the thought of being abused and victimized by your own mother.No joy, but no shame either, that's huge Harri  

I wonder if the next step is getting a therapy chihuahua... . Nahhh, I'd much rather have a therapy ferret.

My advice would be to get a parrot

And there I go... .running again.

Well you can run but you can't hide! Parrot vision is 20/20

[Harri]

Hello Kwamina!  Good to see you flying along with me as I run on my beach.  You gave me a huge lightbulb moment, which I will get to in a minute.  It is fitting because I got the insight about my running behavior from a wolf.

Normalization is a new idea for me and seeing it as a part of validation is quite enlightening.  Heh.  Makes total sense and all of a sudden my mother's behaviors fit once again.  Your example of your own experience with this is sobering and so very tragic really.  I am sorry you experienced such difficult and twisted behavior from both your mother and your older sister.  I can see where under those circumstances threatening suicide can become just another part of 'normal' life.  It is chilling to consider that you could have either done what you did and become desensitized to such a threat or, at the other end, you could have adopted the behavior and incorporated it into your own coping tools.

Realizing *that* from your example has helped me to see that I associated the sexual abuse with pleasing my mother which was all important to me as a little kid and that desire has carried into my adulthood.  The situation I was in was threatening to my very existence, both psychologically and physically so of course I did little to stop it and did not resist.  And of course I did whatever I could to make her happy and like me.  And that behavior, like so many others, became a way to cope, and further, it became just like all the other poor/bad coping strategies and abnormal behavior patters that came courtesy of growing up in a crazy abusive household.

Here I have been shaming myself and hating myself for allowing the sexual abuse even in my 30s, expecting myself to recognize something that was not just normalized but was also required to survive.  I was terrified of her and to refuse?  Unthinkable.  In her terror of me and her rage, she could easily have killed me.  Add to that the fact that she groomed me from very early on to accept it as my lot in life *and* brainwashed me to believe I was evil and therefore it was perfectly okay and even expected for me to be treated that way and of course I took it.  The truly sick part is that I can't even write stuff like I endured it or tolerated it.  Nope.  Those words do not apply in my situation.  She had to go and make it pleasureable for me and tied it to the good Harri who was praised and 'loved'.  I enjoyed it and even longed for it when she withdrew from me in silence and looked at me with those black eyes.  Those times, she would toy with me... .giving me just enough and then taking it away.

Do you know that gun was still in the house when I went and cleaned her things out after she died?  Sitting right there in the open in her bedroom.  This was after I had moved out and even after she had tried to restore the relationship I refused to continue with her?  I am not sure where it is now.  My brother had asked me if I wanted it.  I told him I did not and for him to take it and get rid of it.  

So many people seem to rank physical and sexual abuse as the most damaging.  I stand by my assessment that it is the emotional abuse and mind games that causes the most damage.

Thanks for hanging with me Board Parrot and for helping me sort through this crap.     

[Turkish]

You mention the sexual predator concept of "grooming." It sounds like she groomed you in other ways as well.  To rescue/soothe/be the target to off put her feelings she was incapable of dealing with (you're the predator when it was really her). An aside: can you feel that she was a pedophile apart from being likely BPD? Regarding that, the profanity filters would block what I really want to say... .

Your T sounds like he's standing firm with his boundaries regarding you lapsing into avoidance (I can totally relate). It sounds like he's acting as a mirror (in a good way,  because not all mirroring is bad).

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  Yes, she definitely groomed me in other ways as well.  They all seem to join together and seem like a brilliant manipulation... .if I assign conscious intent.  It is difficult for me to imagine her planning and plotting all of this to use me sexually however, it is equally difficult for me to see all the pieces that fit so well as just random events and acts of a highly dysregulated person, acts that came together in such a way to lead to such violations.  

I don't know enough about the behaviors of sexual predators.  I tried to do some reading but I am too raw right now and honestly not all that interested in reading psych research articles that seem to normalize this behavior when they describe data and correlations and statistics.  I know they are not really normalizing it in terms of saying it is okay, but talking about it in such cold clinical terms is a bit much for me right now.  

The little reading I did do made distinctions between pedophiles who rape small children vs. older kids and those who will prey on family members/friends kids only vs. strangers.

The admittedly little I do know about female sexual abusers and it's association with BPD all point to female sexual abuse mostly being the result of poor boundaries.  That, poor boundaries, seems consistent with some of my experience but not all.  

So to answer your question about her being a pedophile apart from being likely BPD?  I don't know.  I don't understand.  I know I was so thankful that she died just 6 weeks before my nephew was born.  I was resolved to have the conversation with my brother and SIL after his birth but fortunately did not have to do so.  Things would have gone nuclear but I would have done it anyway... .I am just glad it never came to that.  

I did think long and hard (after I admitted to myself what she had done to me and when she was still alive) about whether she was a danger to others and had come to the conclusion that only myself and my brother were potential victims (yes, I did ask two of my T's back then).  I was not prepared to trust her with my nephew though.  I could all to easily picture her 'playing' with him and 'teasing' and under no circumstance would I have wanted her to bathe him.

I keep remembering a time when I was in school and was with a friend visiting another friend who had an infant (6 months?) baby boy.  We were all hanging out in the living room and the mother was grabbing at his parts (not sure of site filter here) and playing with him like it was a joke, laughing the whole time at the changes in his facial expression and the sounds he made.  I sat there horrified yet frozen not sure why it was bothering me so much but it was.  My face must have showed something and the friend I went there with quickly said we had to go.  The mother kept saying for me to chill, that she was just joking around.  I never saw that girl again.

I know now it was not right and I know now why I was horrified and frozen.  I wish I had the words and understanding back then.  It hurts to think of what might have happened to that little guy and it hurts badly to know I was a witness and did nothing.  I think that is the sort of more common example of mothers sexually abusing their babies due to poor boundaries.  It is still sick and damaging.  How many would recognize it as such?  How many realize that infants can feel things and stuff like that leaves an imprint on their brains and psyche?  That tone of voice, tension in a room, playing 'inappropriately' with sexual body parts all leave marks on even the littlest people?  It is too easy to blow this crap off and minimize it.  It is too easy to read stories that are worse, or even like mine that is, in the grand scheme of things not that bad, and marginalize what is or can potentially happen in other families and to other kids, or, God forbid, your own.

A kid may not have a visual memory or a memory they can put into words but the body knows and it remembers.

[Turkish]

Poor boundaries is one way to put it.  My ex told me she confronted her brother after the incident with then D2. She asked,  "do you know what molestation is?" He responded,  "yes, unwanted touching." Uh, what? A little child can't decide "unwanted." Speaking of filters,  I want to swear here.  

I read up quite a bit on this subject,  and frankly it's sickening,  and more pervasive than people think.  i could barely read the mdsa stuff, which fliesin the face of what society tells us about motherhood.  I've mentioned before that i think a male friend of mine may have been a victim.  I would never in abmillion years mention it.

 I don't know what I would have done in your place if I saw that,  especially given what you went through.  I didn't report what then D then almost 2 told me the first time.  3 months later I did.  It was confusing since she didn't seem overtly traumatized (my ex's family didn't believe it partially for the same reason). A couple of months ago,  :)4 locked herself in the bathroom,  which she hadn't done before.  Grandma asked why.  "Because I Don't want Uncle to come in." Grandma said,  "don't lie like that!" So much for grandma's unbelief over two years ago that she didn't believe it because D4 didn't tell her first.  :)enial in families is very typical, sadly... .

Sorry if that was a little hijack.

[Harri]

Turkish, you did not hijack.  You added important info. to the thread and we are having a dialogue about so called forbidden topics.  It's all good.

'unwanted touch'... . :)ear God.

Generally I do not do trigger warnings, but I feel the need to here as the content of this post is not at all reflected by the title of the thread.  The following contains information about child sexual abuse (in more detail than already described previously).  Please do good self care and stop reading if this will bother you.









I agree that sexual abuse is more pervasive than people think.  mdsa (mother daughter sexual abuse) is considered to be rare by some.  I am not sure I agree.  I think it is often not recognized as such and certainly not talked about much.  When I first labeled my experience, I searched the internet for information.  There was hardly any to be found.  ~12 years later, there are a lot more articles available as well as books, but still, compared to other types of sexual abuse, the data is limited and resources are scarce.  Back then I searched for a T who would be able to help me specifically with mdsa issues, but I could not find any.  I did find a couple who were willing to explore and learn along with me though and I was lucky enough that they did not have the old "mother's are bigger than life" myth for me to break through (tho I did encounter them too).  This time around my p-doc and T did not even blink.  That gives me a weird sort of hope.  Someday soon I hope, I will do a thread with links to mdsa and sexual abuse by females.  I know of more than a few people posting just in the last 6 months who would benefit from such resources both on the coping board and the parenting boards.  As I am sure you know, if there are a few talking about it, even a little, you can be sure there are others who remain silent.  I also believe the more information a person has, especially a non parent, the better they will be able to identify instances of sexual abuse and get help for the kids.

Thanks for what you said about not being sure if you were me if you would have reported it.  It is something that really bothers me.  The sad part is, if I had reported it, I am not sure the authorities would have done anything.  I am not trying to justify my silence, I am simply reflecting on the times.  It was the mid to late 80's and the help and resources were not there.  Hell, they are barely there now for mdsa.  I did not know or understand what I was seeing and how wrong it was.  It was a gut reaction I had and I had already been programmed to not trust my gut.  Again, I'm not excusing, just trying to understand.  I still hate it though.

The fact that your daughter and son are both routinely told to stop lying about D4 being molested is a big concern.  It is not healthy for her to be around that and it is not for your son either.  They are being taught to deny their own experience, to not trust their gut.  

Since reading your post last night I have been thinking that something made her talk about it to you.  It does not seem like he hurt her so I am thinking 'how did she know that it was wrong/unnatural' at the age of 2?  Is it instinct?  She has never said "Uncle said do not tell anyone" that I recall so it does not sound like she was told to keep a secret.  I don't know.  It brings me back to "the mind and the body knows'.  Being taught to distrust that and told not to lie when clearly she is not healthy.

Not all sexual abuse is painful or scary.  If it is with a known individual, the adult may seem safe and comfortble, they may make it more of a game, etc.  Kids, even infants, experience sexual pleasure (read about sexual development in infants and kids).  My ex told me his grandmother used to fondle him when he slept over at her house.  He refused to call it abuse because it felt good to him.  He was around 6 and remembered it fondly based on his words alone.  Telling the story though, he was tense, could not maintain eye contact and the pitch of his voice raised.    

Kids do exhibit sexualized behavior.  It is perfectly natural... .and all too often used by sexual predators as an excuse.  They say "the kid wanted it" or 'they came on to me".  BS  Rocking behaviors exhibited by infants is considered in some cases to be self-stimulation.  Kids have been known to start masturbating as early as the age of 3.  

Okay, went off on a tangent there.  Again, I wonder if this part of the thread should be moved or split?  I would hate to trigger anyone, even with the trigger warning.  It is also possible that some people may want to read about this and not post and this info is buried in a deliberately boring and bland thread title.  

Okay, I'm out for now.  I will be trying to compile links to resources for CSA and specifically mdsa for a separate thread.

Thanks for joining me Turkish (if you are still reading!)

[Kwamina]

Well since the title of your thread is 'go ahead, pick a title', I guess we can take this discussion in whatever direction we want too

Someday soon I hope, I will do a thread with links to mdsa and sexual abuse by females.  I know of more than a few people posting just in the last 6 months who would benefit from such resources both on the coping board and the parenting boards.

I would definitely be interested in reading your thoughts about this subject. I agree that it probably happens a lot more than people think or might be willing to admit, because of the myths surrounding mothers and motherhood and likely also because of shame and/or not wanting to 'hurt' one's own mother by exposing the 'family secrets'.

 As I am sure you know, if there are a few talking about it, even a little, you can be sure there are others who remain silent.  I also believe the more information a person has, especially a non parent, the better they will be able to identify instances of sexual abuse and get help for the kids.

This is very true. We have many people reading here who might not yet feel ready to post, but by reading others' posts can still benefit. Reading about similar experiences will also make it easier for those readers/lurkers to at one point also share their story which in turn will make it easier for other readers/lurkers to share their story which in turn will maken it easier... .oh sorry, I was parroting again

Not all sexual abuse is painful or scary.  If it is with a known individual, the adult may seem safe and comfortble, they may make it more of a game, etc.  Kids, even infants, experience sexual pleasure (read about sexual development in infants and kids).

I think it is very important what you say here about how not all sexual abuse will manifest itself in the same manner. It is therefor important to closely examine the dynamics of sexual abuse, how it develops over time and all the psychological and emotional aspects that come along with this type of abusive.

Kids do exhibit sexualized behavior.  It is perfectly natural... .and all too often used by sexual predators as an excuse.  They say "the kid wanted it" or 'they came on to me".  BS  Rocking behaviors exhibited by infants is considered in some cases to be self-stimulation.  Kids have been known to start masturbating as early as the age of 3.  

We once had a thread on this board about this subject:
Daughters of BPD: Childhood masturbation as a means to self-soothe.

The Board Parrot (fortunately not The Borderline Parrot though! I however have seen The Borderline Parrot and he's scary! )

[Fie]

Hello Harri,

It hurts to think of what might have happened to that little guy and it hurts badly to know I was a witness and did nothing.

I would like to tell you that I sincerely think that anyone in your situation would have done nothing. Do not forget you were a child yourself back then. No one can expect a child to react on such a thing. Children are not supposed to know how to handle these things. They are children ! As you said, you wished you had the words and the understanding … but you didn’t, and honestly I think children never have – and should not have, it’s not their task.
Moreover, as you said,  you were groomed, and somehow of course, the abnormalities of our parents are our ‘normal’. In a sick way, that dysfunction was normal to you. Even if somehow in the back of your mind something might have been telling you that something was off, still it was your ‘normal’. How were you than, as a child, knowing nothing else, supposed to acknowledge that that situation with the baby was something that was *really* inappropriate ? If your mother did similar things to you ? All children are loyal to their parents. We children of BPD realize very well that as a child and most of us, far into adulthood, we could not admit to ourselves even, that the behaviors of our parents were dysfunctional. Most of us discover at a rather late age that our FOO was a mess.
I studied some of this in college, and it seems that pedophiles know very well how to play their victim. They scare them / they threaten them, bribe them, ... .In a sick way they also make them a complice. Of course as you pointed out, children also have sexual feelings, so some things the pedophile is doing is also in a weird way pleasurable for the victim. This is of course very confusing, because how can my assaulter be doing something wrong, if I like what he is doing ? This contributes to the immense feeling over overwhelming shame ... .

So don’t beat yourself up over this. Try to not think about that boy, he’s probably an adult now himself and he has to sort out his life. You have to sort out yours, that’s your task. To each his own.
You are not to blame for anything.
Your mother, and the mother of that child were pedophiles. You were a victim. Don't put yourself in a role that was not yours to play.

[Harri]

Kwamina and Fie... .hello and thanks for the replies.

   It's a good thing parrots are cool and their messages are worth parroting.

because of the myths surrounding mothers and motherhood and likely also because of shame and/or not wanting to 'hurt' one's own mother by exposing the 'family secrets'.

Yes.  All of the above.  The myth of Motherhood is a biggie.  Even me, who knows better, still idealizes the concept of mother and I have to remind myself frequently that mothers are humans too and have the same issues as everyone else.  A few years ago I was very bitter about the idealization of motherhood, and I still am a bit, but I also recognize that my experience is not everyone's and I can't force people to see stuff they can't see, or choose not to see.  The rescuer in me does not want people to know that mdsa is a real thing and is more common than thought.

The fear of betraying/hurting our mothers and or the family is another biggie and, as you know, does not just involve cases of incest.  I remember the first post I did on this here, you asked me if I had ever been coached to keep silent.  At the time I was not certain and made a vague reference to being told to keep what happens in the house *in* the house.  I can now see how that line and rule was used to instill fear and, coupled with all the things that happened, was essentially the same as being told to keep quiet and keep the incest (and other abuses) a secret.  Here I am, half a decade later finally speaking out about most of the stuff and still having to fight the instinct to keep quite, to fight the fear and not to try to protect others from reality (as with the trigger warning in my last post in this thread <sighs at self>... .I was trying to protect others, but also myself.  Projection and denial on my part still).

Take that myth of motherhood and wrap it up in mdsa and it leads to total confusion and such a deep shame.  The very person who is most supposed to care for and nourish and protect is the very one instilling the poison.  Born with an instinct to survive that compells us to bond with our caretaker, especially mothers, and couple that with the myth of motherhood that is propogated by society and almost every darned institution out there and it is very hard to see the incest in my own life, nevermind disclose to others who are surrounded by the same myth... .on top of the fear instilled by the pedophile... .I could go on.  It is vicious.  I saw one T and told her at the beginning that I experienced incest with my mother and I was many sessions in before she said something about how I had to forgive because she was my mother BS.  That therapy ended very quickly.  I did not have the energy or desire to break through her image of mother being almighty and I was angry that I had gone for so long thinking she understood.  I learned to ask better questions and to read the T's better after that.

Back to what I mentioned earlier about sexual abuse not always being painful or scary.  I know if you asked my mother she would say I liked it.  The fact is I did like it in spite of knowing deep down that it was wrong.  It felt good both physically and emotionally.  I was able to please my mother and make her happy.  It was easy and no harm done right?  <head explodes!>  Again, sometimes I wish she had hurt me.

I have shakily accepted that even as the adult, supposedly making choices to participate in the incest that I was conditioned physically, emotionally and socially since birth to do so.  What seemed like conscious choice was in fact conditioned choice and it came about the same way any other conditioned behavior happens.  I am in no way giving myself a free pass and not taking responsibility for my own actions though.  It simply is.  Truth.  It sucks and it hurts but it is true.

The Existential Paradox from Dr. Joseph Santoro:
We are not responsible for how we came to be who we are as adults but as adults we are responsible for whom we have become and for everything we say and do.  
This.  This concept has come to give me such peace over the years and at the same time has kept me intrigued.  I keep coming back to this every time i have a new break through or insight.  It seems to move and take on a more complex *and* a more simple shape as my understanding and acceptance grows.

PS Kwamina, fear not.  I think the Borderline Parrot was mistaken for a turkey and was eaten on Thursday in the US... .left a lot of people feeling queasy.

[Harri]

Dear Fie, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for the comforting and 'let's bring her back from the self-recrimination and self-flagellation' place that I was in.  I can see your points and I can't really argue them.  I am still sad for him but mostly for a society that sees that sort of thing as funny and harmless to a child. 

I keep forgetting that I can't look back and judege my actions as a child with the knowledge and understanging I have today.  I also keep forgetting that I have a tendency to take too much responsibility and too much blame for things... .add to that my need to rescue and control?  Total martyr here.     So thanks for essentially telling me to get down off the stake!  LOL

I was reading another board the other day and a poster said "the kid will not remember".  I forget what the behavior was (it was some kind of emotional/verbal abuse) and I was overwhelmed at how many people are living with that myth.

So, Fie, it seems you agree with my assessment that my mother was a pedophile?  Yes, I am seeking validation on that.  Not sure what that means, but I do feel the need for validation on that aspect.  I think I may be struggling with minimizing my experiences again.

The journey seems to never end, especially when certain parts take on a hamster wheel type of flow.

PS, I did not cut you out from the response right above this on purpose.  I was worried about getting cut off due to the post/character limit and I wanted to be safe )I lost quite a bit of my first post due to this, hence the two parts.  It is frustrating because I think/process as I write)  I can't tell but the limit does not seem to work 100% as advertised!   

[Fie]

Dear Harri,

You are welcome.

I am still sad for him but mostly for a society that sees that sort of thing as funny and harmless to a child.  

Maybe society does see that sort of thing as harmless to a child, I don't know ... .but society does have a lot of toxic people in it. I still tend to believe that sensible, compassionate people *know* that children are not to be messed around with. I also know that when a pedophiles ends up in jail f.e., his life will be made hell by the other inmates. I personally think that most of the people think sexual child abuse is so horrible that they almost cannot believe it happened when it did occur, even when they are seeing signs. They simply choose to ignore the signs, because the horror is too big for them to grasp. It is also an incredibly emotional topic, since most of the people have children. And none of us are sure that this won't happen to our child. So we choose to just burry our head in the sand.
And also eventually, it was a pedophile inflicting damage on that boy / on you. Not society.

So yes I believe your mum was a pedophile, otherwise she would not have had sexual interactions with a child. (not even necessary to act on it, even the mere desire to act on it makes someone a pedophile).

I think it can be important to distinguish between two things here. Your mum was not just BPD. Most BPD are not interested in the slightest way in having sexual acts with children. It takes a different diagnosis. Just as not all pedophiles are BPD.

Maybe the BPD personality of your mum made her act out on her pedophile impulses. (I do believe that some pedophiles know their tendencies are wrong, and they restrain themselves) Maybe she considered herself as a victim (well, all BPD do), and she thought she had a right to act out on you physically (waif/witch).

There is a typology of rapists, and if I remember correctly, there is one category of them who don't rape out of sexual desire. They rape out of a sadistic desire to inflict pain on their victim (power). This is the worst type.
If your mother did not get sexual aroused from the interactions with you, it is possible she fell in this category (and then I am thinking she was not a pedophile strictly spoken, because pedophiles desire children sexually). This last category is more rare, but the damage they can do is bigger.

Dear Harri, please keep on writing about this if you can bring yourself to it. What you went through is abuse, rape. It does *not* define who you are, only what happened to you.

[polly87]

Hello dear Harri,
I'm so impressed seeing you share this... .You're so very brave. How much you've grown! I'm so proud of you.
When (or if?) my head stops spinning with my own issues I'll come back and reply properly... .
Sending much love and wisdom to you. xoxo

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

Just wanted to say 'Hi' to you   and that you are making progress dear one! 

Speaking of hanging on to things... .

I mean the next thing I know I am going to have to give away parts of myself again, parts I need to hold onto because they are all I have even though they are damaged and somewhat putrid with all that has come before this point.

How well I remember during my first months of T when I examined each part of me, I discovered over and over that everything was connected to my mom and that it really wasn't me at all. I was devastated to gather that there wasn't anything of Wools, only my uBPDm and who in the world was I anyway? As I stripped away all those things, I found that I was scared and felt all alone because my identity of who I thought I was ran through my fingers like sand. To not have a foundation underneath me, no matter how damaged it was, left me in a place that felt like no-man's land for a time. Over the course of T, I'm grateful to say that the re-building of a new foundation of discovering who I am is making all the difference in the world for me. I hope it will for you too.

 
Wools

[Rebecca333]

Hi, Harri.   

I'm relatively new, so I haven't read your previous posts,  but after reading this thread I needed to respond.  I too am a survivor of mdsa, and agree that society's attitudes about mothers makes it especially difficult.  Several years ago, I actually went through a severe depression that was partially triggered by Mother's Day.

If you want assistance in compiling resources, I might be able to help, although the literature is skimpy, that's for sure.  Still, there is more awareness now than in years past.  (In my case, I was abused in the early 70s.)

My experience was a bit different than yours in some ways.  My mother was violent towards me and there was no way it was pleasurable.  I remember mostly wondering if I was going to be killed.  In other ways, it seems like our experiences were similar - the confusion and guilt I felt, the attempt to escape into spirituality (I was within one week of entering a convent at one point in my life), the "oddness" of being abused but not by my father... .as if any abuse could be considered normal.

I do feel after years of therapy that the most severe abuse she inflicted was emotional.  She damaged my ability to trust myself, to believe in my goodness, and to let the love of good people, safe people, into my heart. 

For example, she told me that if I said anything to my teachers, I would be locked up.  I should be glad that she was saving me because the teachers all thought I should be sent away.  Ah, there is so much more, but the point is she messed me up mentally so badly that it is only in the past few years that I feel that I am starting to recover.

Why am I writing this all?  I'm not sure, but maybe just so you know that I'm here, and that I can relate, and that things get better, and that there is hope.

Peace,

Rebecca   

[Kwamina]

I do feel after years of therapy that the most severe abuse she inflicted was emotional.  She damaged my ability to trust myself, to believe in my goodness, and to let the love of good people, safe people, into my heart.  

This is a fundamental insight. No matter the form of abuse, whether it is physical, sexual or otherwise, the underlying abuse happens on the emotional and psychological level. I am very sorry you too experienced this Rebecca333. You and Harri are both survivors of quite a difficult childhood and I am very glad to see both of you working on healing yourself  I am also very glad and grateful that the two of you are sharing your experiences because many more people can and will benefit from reading your stories. By healing yourself and sharing your journey, you are also making it a little easier for others to heal who've had similar experiences

The Existential Paradox from Dr. Joseph Santoro:
We are not responsible for how we came to be who we are as adults but as adults we are responsible for whom we have become and for everything we say and do.  
This.  This concept has come to give me such peace over the years and at the same time has kept me intrigued.  I keep coming back to this every time i have a new break through or insight.  It seems to move and take on a more complex *and* a more simple shape as my understanding and acceptance grows.

I like this concept too, it in a way frees us from our past and empowers us in the present while moving into a brighter future.

Take care

[Harri]

Fie, hello!  You are right that it is not society doing these things, but individuals and my mother specifically (or rather, she was).  It is easier for me to lump everyone in the same category and refer to the group as society.  I do not forget that there are good kind genuine people who do not harm or violate but I do tend to focus more on those that do harm others.  Then again, and maybe it is the anger in me that causes this, I see people burying their heads in the sand as being passively dangerous.  They may not be inflicting the harm themselves, but their very denial and refusal to believe it can happen to those close to them is part of the problem. Again, my emotions right now may be clouding my perspective though I am not feeling particularly angry or upset. 

I agree that my mother had more than just BPD.  I have always felt that BPD was the least of her issues in some ways.  My current T will not give me a label for her.  He says he does not think he can and that I am making progress and understanding her behavior as seperate from who I am already so is not sure of the value (grrrrr).  Last Tuesday, he asked me if it really matters if we call her a pedophile, sadist or a rapist.  He has a point, but I would really like to slap a few more stamps on my mother's butt.  The T I saw several years ago who pointed me towards BPD did not know the extent of the sexual abuse as I did not tell her details.

You made an excellent point and I agree that BPD does not cause someone to sexually abuse people.  I like how you said the disorder can allow one to act on their impulses.  It fits and it makes sense to me so thank you.

Back to my mother.  I was talking with my T and I told him I do not think she ever really got sexual pleasure from what she did to me but rather comfort and affection (twisted I know) when we were alone.  The only time I saw her getting sexually aroused regarding anything related to me was when I was getting attention from men (I matured very early) or when she was looking at other women (adults) and pointing them out to me.  Same thing with guys.  The look in her eyes as she looked them up and down, licking her lips, the indrawn breath.  She would encourage me to be a stripper.  Repulsive.

Fie, thank you so much for supporting me.  Your input and encouragement is so very appreciated.  thank you.

I will come back with more replies later.  Sorry.

[Turkish]

Harri,

I totally relate to you wanting to label her.  My T was similar to yours in that he didn't like labels. He stopped two weeks ago when I said that D4 was enmeshed with her mother.  "'Enmeshed' is a pathological term,  let's not go there." Grrr, ok.  I can see where my T and yours are coming from.  

However,  can you explore your need to label your mother with a diagnosis? On the surface,  it seems like it provides an answer. Deeper than that,  do you feel that it might excuse what she did,  even a little,  because she was sick?

[drained1996]

Harri, you are a survivor and I commend you for sharing your story, thoughts and feelings so freely.  Same for Rebecca.  You are both brave and strong for not only deciding to confront and remember such abuse... .but dealing with it head on and on top of that sharing with others.  You should be proud of yourselves for taking care of YOU, and showing others a path they may not have ever seen possible. 
I'm sure there are many who do not post you are touching as well.  Just wanted to chime in with some thanks... .some thanks for sharing and being YOU! 

[Fie]

Harri,

I cannot start to imagine how downright frustrating it must be for you to know that yes your mother’s behavior was sick, because she was sick, but moreover, nobody came to your help. Nobody rescued you. And that is so utterly unfair. Unfair is not even the word. I am just not finding any appropriate words for it, sorry.

In this way your remark about society makes perfect sense to me.

It all makes me feel sad, and hopeless in a way too.

Some time ago I reported someone to the police who I suspect to be sexually abusing his granddaughter (only a suspicion, but I decided to report it anyway). The police were willing to cooperate and investigate, but they said the chance was very small that they would be able to actually help the girl. The granddad would just deny everything of course, and I don’t have any proof. I am a legal advisor, so I totally get it. But in the meantime, that girl is still living with him ... .
It sucks.

[Harri]

Polly, thank you for reading this and for posting such encouraging words.  We have shared this path for a while now and I am thankful for the company.

Hi Wools! Your words always give me such peace and hope in my heart.  You have such a gentle spirit and I get tears in my eyes every time I re-read your post to me.  Yes, tearing down the old foundation and building a new one is hard work, and it hurts and is very disorienting for me--->  Which way is up?  Am I going sideways?  Where the hell are the floors?  How am I supposed to stand?  Quick, someone, gimme a lifesaver... .spearmint if you've got it but I will take anything! <--- Okay, I feel better now.  Wools, thank you for sharing how it was for you, relating to me, and giving me a glimpse of my future.  I will get through this.  I am that stubborn and determined.

[Harri]

Hi Rebecca.  I am grateful for your post too though I am so very sorry that you too experienced mdsa.  It is hearbreaking to know that your mother hurt you and was violent.  The more I learn of others who experienced mdsa the less I feel like an odd duck though I am always sad too.  That my mother was the one to violate me was/is such a powerful source of shame.  I am slowly starting to look at myself more kindly and taking off the layers of shame (okay, so maybe I have only removed one layer of shame right now, but I'll get there).  Thank you so much for sharing your story here with me/us.  It is always good to be told and reminded that things will get better.  

Can I ask what kind of therapy you had?  Roughly how long were you in T?  I've worked on healing from mdsa off and on over the last 12 years or so, but it was slow, sporatic and I had a lot of false starts.  I have done a lot of work on my own but kept running into brickwalls and never kenw how to get past them on my own.  This time around I am in a position where I can focus just on healing and it does not matter how anxious I feel or whether I have flashbacks, etc.  I have the time to take care of me and just Be so I am weirdly grateful to be unable to work due to physical issues.  there is always a bright side!

Rebecca, again, thanks for sharing and speaking up about it.  I am still not ready to do a post with links and such... . everytime i find one, I read and then read more and more and lose sight of my project.  More avoidance behavior on my part?  Possibly.  

Take care Rebecca.  I am glad you found this site, not just because you helped me but because it really is a nice safe spot to land.  Be well.  

Kwamina,

I like this concept too, it in a way frees us from our past and empowers us in the present while moving into a brighter future.

Yes!  When I first read the Existential Paradox, I was angry and bothered by it but I kept going back to it and finally got it.  

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  

However,  can you explore your need to label your mother with a diagnosis? On the surface,  it seems like it provides an answer. Deeper than that,  do you feel that it might excuse what she did,  even a little,  because she was sick?

 Good question.  My T asked me why it was important and all I could come up with was that it would make it easier for me to understand.  I know there has to be more to it because the pull to find a label is so strong.  

So what are the possibilities?
~It may very well be that I am still trying to hold onto the fantasy mother by excusing or even justifying (in a way) her behavior like you asked Turkish.
~It may be a way for me to point the finger at her for being the disordered one.  If I can slap a really serious label on her, then I can believe that I never stood a chance against her and never had a chance to ever say No to her back when it would have made a significant difference in terms of how I am today.
  Last session, I told my T that I think someone smarter than me and with a stronger personality than me would have figured things out and told someone rather than just taking it passively.  Part of my brain knows that I am still beating myself up and blaming myself but a bigger part really believes this.  So yeah, maybe I am trying to save her and keeping myself a vcictim still.
~ Holding onto the blame for myself and giving her a pass because she was ill also allows me to stay enmeshed with her.  I won't have to say goodbye and i won't have to finish grieving.
~ Ultimately, all of the above boil down to me not having to grow up.

Sh*t!

Drained, thanks for the kindness and encouragement.   I take each grain of positive stuff and hold onto it as a life raft.  thank you.

[Turkish]

~It may be a way for me to point the finger at her for being the disordered one.  If I can slap a really serious label on her, then I can believe that I never stood a chance against her and never had a chance to ever say No to her back when it would have made a significant difference in terms of how I am today.

You were a child when this first started. You grew up, where groomed to accept it in the same home, by the person closest to you, the only mother you ever knew. Of course you didn't stand a chance against her. She had massive, unbalanced power over you from the beginning.

~ Ultimately, all of the above boil down to me not having to grow up.

If you mean grow up as in mature how most people would think of it I disagree. If it's grow up as in grow up past the horribly abused child you carry with you, then yes.

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  Okay, so obviously I am still all wobbly in accepting that I was victimized.  Thanks for the reality check.

If you mean grow up as in mature how most people would think of it I disagree. If it's grow up as in grow up past the horribly abused child you carry with you, then yes.

I don't understand.  How do most people mean 'mature'?  What are you disagreeing with?  You are right that I do carry a child within me and all too often I allowed her to rule, but I do not understand the other part. 

[Harri]

Oh and another question.  Why wasn't I able to figure this out when I was a kid?  So many here figured out that their uBPD/BPD was well... .uBPD/BPD when they were young.  They got out of the house fast.  I got out twice and had the perfect opportunity to not go back... .twice as an adult.  But I went back.

I was just reading the article The Psychology of Victimhood by Ofer Zur, Ph.D.  It was enlightening and refreshing given the political correctness that has IMO gotten out of control.  It put into words some of my reasons for not wanting the label victim, but the very act of refusing to believe I am a victim makes me one!  ACK!  Anyway, I tried to figure out which category of victim I fall in, and I can't tell.  As a kid, it was not my fault not one bit of it according to the article.  But as an adult who made choices, even tho they were conditioned choices... . I still have to wrap my head around this.  

I keep hitting this brick wall.  Choice.  Free will.  Conditioned choice.  Brainwashing.  Grooming.  Victimhood.  Survivor.  Thriver.

The only label that I feel even remotely comfortable with is Harri.  Perhaps my efforts to find a label for my mother is really an effort to find a label for myself.  

[Turkish]

I mean mean maturing like growing up,  separating from caregivers,  and striking out into adulthood. Of course it varies from culture to culture and family to family. I was a latchkey kid, and also not sexually abused (though I did think it weird when my mom took a bath with me at 3, maybe 4, and had me nurse on her... .I asked to.  That was only one time). I was also adopted, and male.  Lots of differences.

While you were a child, of course you didn't have free will.  What your mother did,  however,  was keep you in a subservient role.  Think of battered intimate partners.  Sure,  it's easy to say,  "just leave!" But something keeps them there.  Sometimes it's circumstantial (finances,  children), but it can also be ghosts of the past,  the "hook" of a dysfunctional past (like my ex's current H) and wanting life to be good despite the view from the outside being anything but. 

How much more of a "hook" is it to be bonded to a parent or a caregiver? Pretty darn powerful, I'd say.  She was your only mother.  All any child wants from their parents is love,  unconditional.  Your mother set conditions,  felonious ones at that. 

[Fie]

~It may be a way for me to point the finger at her for being the disordered one.  If I can slap a really serious label on her, then I can believe that I never stood a chance against her and never had a chance to ever say No to her back when it would have made a significant difference in terms of how I am today.

You were a child when this first started. You grew up, where groomed to accept it in the same home, by the person closest to you, the only mother you ever knew. Of course you didn't stand a chance against her. She had massive, unbalanced power over you from the beginning.

I of course agree with Turkish. *Even without her having one or more labels*, you would not have stood a chance. She was your mum, you were and still are her child. There was (and is) an imbalance of power.

~ Holding onto the blame for myself and giving her a pass because she was ill also allows me to stay enmeshed with her.  I won't have to say goodbye and i won't have to finish grieving.
~ Ultimately, all of the above boil down to me not having to grow up.

Also here I think you are being too severe on yourself. I don't think that putting a label on her means that you allow yourself to stay enmeshed. It can be the total opposite. Putting one or more labels on her might just mean that you want to convince yourself that you should in fact say goodbye. Very possible that you are looking for a way out of the enmeshment. After all ... .if someone is so sick and their behaviors are so abnormal ... .why should we try and try ?

[Sunfl0wer]

Gonna speak for myself here in case it is relatable, and cause we all got our reasons for us, so maybe not relatable, anyways... .

For me, I have been a big fan of labels to cope.  Started with my first access of a psychology book my big sis had.  I was floored reading it.  As a young teen it validated what I suspected all along but could not put into words.  I finally had proof that what was happening around me my whole life was not ok at all.  Even categorized as dysfunction, or as the book title, abnormal psychology.

Ever since that moment, I read, read, read everything, still kinda do, as much as I can about what is and isn't normal psychology.  I learned to use labeling things as my major coping mechanism.

It kinda helped me to recreate what to strive for, undo the learning of my upbringing.  Certain things were labeled by this book as abnormal.  I could see this around me, felt like huge back up in my head to my values, also, I could avoid doing abnormal things and turning out like them.  (Funny enough, my T told me to get a hold of a Normal Psych book, cause I couldn't relate to that info at all, was so confused reading it.). I could find ways to stand up to Abnormal stuff from them, and feel confident about it.

Here is what I feel it served... .
It served to help seperate me from the dysfunction.
Helped me to feel I had a way to remove myself from it.
Helped me to identify it, label it, then stay distant.

So early in my learning, and even today, I find labeling a very soothing thing for myself.  

Yet, as I move on, I find that removing the labels I originally created is another level of healing beyond that.  I find it a bit primitive to think as though, only a "pedophile" would do xyz behavior, or only an "abuser" would do xyz behavior.  First of all, because if I look at the list of abusive behaviors, well. I have to admit that sure, I have yelled before at my BF too, so does that make me an abuser?  :)o the mitigating circumstances matter? Or I think back to a child I knew, who was 12 and severely and disgusting abused by her parents, locked in a dark garage to live, made to have sex with men.  In foster care, she was found having sex with the neighborhood boys.  So is she a victim or abuser, or what?  Where do we draw these lines?  Maybe we will say, if she continues victimizing young boys after reaching a birthday of 16, or 18?

Kinda hard to express, kinda sounding rambly.

I guess, in the beginning, labels can help me gain initial distance I need from a situation to cause me to start healing.

Yet, to continue healing, I feel I then need to remove the label in a way, to see this person as more than their label, to re humanize them again.

We label people "homeless guy" "pedophile" etc and the implication is that it means we are not like them, they are different than the rest "of us."

Yet where does that leave us?
Does it keep us too protected? So much that we dont see the harm in the "almost pedophile behaviors" that are still harmful?
So protected and seperate that maybe there is an additional part to face?

Can't explain it well, just for me, at some point removing the label, integrating that person into my awareness without the label, helps me feel at greatest peace with the whole mess.  Seems to me like a second level of healing in this.

[Kwamina]

Why wasn't I able to figure this out when I was a kid?  So many here figured out that their uBPD/BPD was well... .uBPD/BPD when they were young.  They got out of the house fast.  I got out twice and had the perfect opportunity to not go back... .twice as an adult.  But I went back.

Yes, but so many of us didn't. I only found out about BPD when I was 30. Though I clearly remember as a 9/10 year old not wanting to live at home anymore, I did not move out fast. I lived with my mother until my late twenties. Yet here I am as the Board Parrot.

She was your only mother.

For me what Turkish says here pretty much sums it all up. No matter what has happend, she was and will always remain your only mother.

Yet, as I move on, I find that removing the labels I originally created is another level of healing beyond that.
... .
Seems to me like a second level of healing in this.

I like Sunfl0wer's idea of levels of healing. I too have found that labels serve a specific purpose during specific stages of the healing proces. Yet I have also found that as I heal more certain labels in a way become less important. An example are the concepts of FOG, the Karpman Triangle and projecting and splitting. Learning about these concepts and being able to classify my uBPD family-members' behavior with them, was extremely helpful to me. It gave me a better understanding of what I was dealing with and allowed me to develop new strategies for interacting with them. However, as I learned more and healed more, it has become less important for me to apply these labels to my family-members' behavior. The main thing I focus on now is myself and the tools I can use like S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N... It has become less important for me to apply those labels to their behavior and more important to apply the tools that help me break through their negative behavior, regardless of the label I could place on it.

In your particular case I think you attaching certain labels at this point can be very healthy and a step forward. You have resisted placing certain labels on your mother such as abuser and also resisted placing certain labels on yourself such as victim. We are talking about very serious matters here and I can imagine that attaching certain labels will make things more real, or perhaps will make things real for the very first time. I can also imagine that the labels you have struggled with and resisted evoke very strong emotions and that this might be the reason you resisted them for so long. Not using these labels would then also mean not having to deal with those strong emotions, not having to deal with the fear and ultimately not having to deal with all of reality. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Putting one or more labels on her might just mean that you want to convince yourself that you should in fact say goodbye.

I can definitely see the validity in what Fie says here. Labeling your mother a certain way, also means letting go of your old labels for her. Seeing your mother as an abuser who victimized you, does indeed mean saying goodbye to that loving fantasy mother. It can be a massive internal struggle when we want to hold on and let go at the same time, for who really likes to let go of the only mother they ever had? Even though it might only be a fantasy mother who only really ever existed in our own head... .it was all we had.

PS. Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, Sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault

[Fie]

Thank you Sunflower for sharing your thoughts about labeling. Now I understand why I feel labeling is so important to me. A friend of mine who's psychologist always tells me I sometimes should not label so much. I don't question her expertise yet I always feel it is still important for me to label. I never really got to lay my finger on the why of it. Now I get it... .as you said : I am learning what not to do, by labeling disorders as such, and seeing that certain behaviors are attached to those labels. And then make sure I don't end up doing the same things.
It also enables me to stay away from people I have labeled. They have a label = run Fie !

Cool, thanks for pointing that out  :-)

[Sunfl0wer]

Lol!

PS. Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault

I feel compelled to point out, I so appreciate how you can easily toggle from a serious topic, to humor, and smoothly and well.

(Personally working on my toggle abilities.  I so appreciate the posting here in how we can refer to another's as I post dry, seeming uncaring at times, lack warm fuzzy stuff, but it can get integrated into stuff sorta.  My toggle switch is in T process.)

Also thanks Harri for opening the door for others to have the privilege to talk about your experiences.  I was reading mostly quietly.  It is soo healing for myself to see how well everyone is working through on this post.  So good for me to see examples of kindness in many forms, from different folks.  It feels so healing to read everyones responses, even though this is not my experience, so just thanks for opening this up Harri!

(I still have many Parts of myself I am afraid to face, I am grateful to see your bravery, it gives me hope)

Thanks Fie! I'm kinda working on removing labels these days when I can.  Lol, even removing the label that labeling is "bad!"  Confusing, but makes sense to me... . 

[Fie]

Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, Sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault grin

Heheh I'm a child of BPD, so I'm used to get the blame always. So go ahead, one more time can't hurt ! 

[Rebecca333]

Hi, Harri. 

You asked about what kind of therapy I have been in.  (I’m answering here on the boards rather than with a private message in the hopes that this discussion might be helpful to other abuse survivors.)  * Trigger warning – discussion of sexual violence, self-abuse, etc.  Please be kind to yourself if you know this will distress you.  Also, apologies for some rough language and the length of this post.

Well, I wish I could say that there was just one answer, and a quick one at that, to this question!  But in reality, I have worked through several processes in my journey.  First, I’m not “done” with therapy.  I’ve seen different counselors off and on since I was about 17 and I am now in my fifties.   

When I first started, I was seeing a female counselor who did a lot of basic crisis intervention and stabilization with me.  At the time, I was still living at home with my parents and really doing badly.  I worked through some very deep shame with her, which was assisted greatly by her openness about her own personal experiences.  She shared that she had been gang-raped, which I think was one reason that I was able to even start talking about the depth of my self-destructive nature at the time.  I was walking alone in dark places late at night, throwing urine in my own face, and was almost constantly suicidal.  I’m afraid in hindsight that I probably scared the s**t out of this poor woman!  God bless her, she helped me greatly, including getting me on a brand new medication with no track record, Prozac.  Yep, I’m that old.

One of the most helpful things I did was participate (some years later) in a group that was specifically for child abuse survivors.  Although I was the only one abused by her mother, I found this extremely helpful.  Reading books and articles is not the same as hearing and talking with others who have experienced similar things.  This group was facilitated by two experienced therapists, one male and one female.  I was in that group for probably three or four years.  The membership was fairly steady over that time.

At one point, I was seeing a female art therapist (for a few years, maybe?) who was helpful with some of my spiritual issues in particular.  “Art never lies,” she said, and I found that to be true, if I was really open to the process.  I continue to this day to use art as a personal therapeutic process, both intentionally and unintentionally, as I draw, paint, sculpt, and make multi-media artworks.

Although not technically “therapy,” a tremendously helpful force in my life was a small faith-sharing group that I was in for years.  I never shared my full story with these people, but still was able to take some comfort and support in the company of good people who were hopeful and shared on a more than superficial level.  The main group broke apart under the stress of the death of one of the members, but to this day, I meet every week or so with two other women who I have now known for decades.

I have been helped by reading a lot about surviving sexual abuse, the impacts it has, and the family dynamics that surround abuse.  I have no doubt that my sisters BPD was fostered by the dysfunctional family we both grew up in.  My current therapist (more on him in a bit) recommended reading on PTSD which made me feel like I wasn’t crazy after all.  This board was been so helpful in understanding my sister.   I can’t say enough about self-educating via reading as an adjunct to talk therapy.

Also, I’ve been on various medications over the years.  I struggled mightily but have finally come to terms with the fact that my childhood experience of unremitting high levels of stress affected my neurological development.  I thought at various times: I’m weak, medication is just a crutch, I’m going to get addicted, I’m just trying to avoid really solving my problems, I’m hurting myself because these doctors don’t really know what this stuff does, and on and on.  Well, many years of experience has taught me that whether it takes two weeks or a year, if I go off my medication I get depressed.  And not down-in-the dumps depressed, I’m talking throw-myself-in-front-of-a-bus depressed.  My need for medication certainly doesn’t imply that I think everyone needs it, but for me, it’s a essential part of my recovery.

Physical therapy, in the form of a very skilled and kind massage therapist, helped me start to get back into my own body.  I still struggle with this, but at one point in my life, I made the financial sacrifice to have a massage once every two weeks.  I firmly believe that unresolved trauma binds itself not only to the psyche but to the body.  The massage released tension in my shoulders that was very painful – and helped me realize that my energy flows in my body were blocked and stagnant.  As I said, still a constant issue for me, but I have made great strides in this area.

Over the years, other things that have been incredibly helpful for me have included: singing in choruses (there’s actually a fair amount of clinical evidence on sound therapy), drumming circles, extensive time in nature and in gardening, silent and directed spiritual retreats, learning to meditate, simple yoga practice, and even teaching others to paint.

Finally, my current therapist is male.  I’ve seen him for years – at least 15 years to be more specific.  It’s been quite the journey.  I have questioned off and on if it’s reasonable to be in therapy for so long.  What, am I that crazy?  Am I not fixable?  Am I just completely dependent on this man?  I hate therapy!  And…... it has been an incredibly beneficial and healing relationship.  I have learned that, unlike with my mother, someone can be safe.  I can get angry and frustrated with someone, and they won’t hit me or go away.  I can get annoyed when he doesn’t get it.  And, he can make a sincere apology that I can accept.  So, I need more support than people raised in healthier families.  So what?  With his help, I have been able to resist the seduction of suicide and finally have given up that unhealthy avenue for good.
   
Right now, I’m moving slowly but steadily from just surviving to actually enjoying my life, living with purpose, and being open to love in its many forms.  Dealing with my BPD sister is very difficult but not all-consuming.   I am slowly learning to tolerate happiness, and order, and peace, and beauty, and joy!

Harri, what all this has taught me is that therapy is not one size fits all.   At different times, different things and people can help.  As others have said, healing goes on at many levels, like walking a spiral until you reach the tender inner soul that just wants to be loved and to love others.  At various times, I have considered EMDR and other modalities, but right now I am content and am making progress.  If ever I feel like I’m getting disorganized or losing touch again, I’m open to whatever! 

Peace,

Rebecca

[Kwamina]

This has been an awesome discussion so thanks for starting it Harri

Right now, I’m moving slowly but steadily from just surviving to actually enjoying my life, living with purpose, and being open to love in its many forms.  :)ealing with my BPD sister is very difficult but not all-consuming.   I am slowly learning to tolerate happiness, and order, and peace, and beauty, and joy!

I want to thank you too Rebecca333 for so openly sharing your experiences and all the steps you've taken to heal yourself. I agree that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. It would be nice if there were such a thing, but healing from traumatic abuse is complex and takes time and patience. You have come a long way and it is wonderful to read how you are transitioning from surviving (which by itself is a significant achievement), to thriving and enjoying your life

Take care my friends  

The Board Parrot

[Harri]

Hah.  Perfect timing Kwamina.  Over the last two weeks I have alternated between running from this thread and freezing at the thought of posting again.  I woke up today telling myself to just Do It!  So I am.  

See, I did not know where to go from here.  Part of me so wants to freeze where I was comfortable, believing that I am inherently evil and that I was stupid and dumb and too naive and trusting to see through the BS of my mother and father.  Another part of me wants to run away because to change I know I have to leave the comfortable known role I have played and learn new ways of being and somehow figure out how to break down the falsehoods and illusions that have kept me standing. Wobbly as it has been, I have been standing.  

I've kept saying in T that all the stories I have to tell are the same thing over and over.  I told of 4 main things that have shaped me and followed me through my whole life.  Those 4 stories pretty much explain everything anyone, including me, needs to understand about me.  

But what happens when the story telling and remembering have been mastered and it is time to stop?  I don't really know.  I think it is time to stand firm and learn to move freely.  On Tuesday, my T and I agreed that it is time for me to stop pushing him away.  Three weeks ago I asked him if he has kept track of how many times I have sat there and rolled my eyes at him.  He said nothing, but I swear there was a twinkle in his eyes (projection?  Who cares!)  Two weeks ago, I asked him if he is tired of me pushing him away with a very long pointy stick.  Again, he said nothing, but I think that twinkle was back.    One week ago I asked him if he too wanted to bang his head against the brick wall in the office everytime he had to repeat something or watch me do the same old pushing away behaviors.  He said nothing.  This week he said it is time for me to change those things and stop fighting what I now know to be true.  I left feeling scared and numb, not quite sure what that means for the next therapy session.  I realized I was working myself up over nothing.  My T will still be my T and as supportive and accepting as ever.  I will still be as stubborn and as determined as ever and it will all work out.  I can trust myself and my T to make sure of that.  So I am done fighting it, for now. <--- I can only think about now right now.  So here is me acknowledging truth:

I was targeted.  I was a victim.  I was abused.  I was brainwashed and groomed.  I was in an impossible situation with no chance of me seeing through the insanity.  I am worth so much more than what I got.  I was betrayed by my parents and the people around me who chose to stay steeped in their own dysfunction.  I was not born flawed or special or designed for abuse and I am worthy just the same as everyone else.  It is time to stop letting lies, manipulations, gaslighting, and someone elses mental illness define me.  
(I still feel like the above is just a poor-me-pity-me-whining-fest  but I am telling myself to shut it!

Here is me embracing some new, uncomfortable yet healing stuff:
This thread shows that I am supported.  People care about me.  People can accept me in spite of my past.  I share a history with a few who are brave enough to open up and share with me and others here so I know I am not alone.  Even those who do not share a particular part of my history can still hear me and reach out and lend me a hand when I need it.  That one part of my history does not define me and others can see that far better than I can right now.

In the interest of full disclosure, all of the above also played a part in my freezing and running.  The kindness, acceptance, and honesty you have all generously shared with me makes me feel very vulnerable.  Kwamina, Rebecca, Fie, Turkish, polly, Wools, Sunlower, drained, and Panda thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!      I agree that this is an awesome thread and I am awed to be on the receiving end of such generosity.  

You are all helping me to craft a new story that I can use to help me stand strong.  

I will be back to reply to the individual posts that I have not addressed yet.  I just wanted to shake off the fear and prove to myself that I can stop running and trying to push people away first.  Even myself.  Writing what I did about the truths of my past makes me want to run from *me* by numbing out, bingeing, retreating into my safe inner world.  I can't though.  Seems I really have learned a new trick.  I have the voice of my T combined with my own voice telling me to just sit with my feelings and I actually believe I am going to be okay.

Thanks for helping me to reach this place.  

[Sunfl0wer]

In the interest of full disclosure, all of the above also played a part in my freezing and running.  The kindness, acceptance, and honesty you have all generously shared with me makes me feel very vulnerable.  Kwamina, Rebecca, Fie, Turkish, polly, Wools, Sunlower, drained, and Panda thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!      I agree that this is an awesome thread and I am awed to be on the receiving end of such generosity.  

You are all helping me to craft a new story that I can use to help me stand strong.  

I will be back to reply to the individual posts that I have not addressed yet.  I just wanted to shake off the fear and prove to myself that I can stop running and trying to push people away first.  Even myself.  Writing what I did about the truths of my past makes me want to run from *me* by numbing out, bingeing, retreating into my safe inner world.  I can't though.  Seems I really have learned a new trick.  I have the voice of my T combined with my own voice telling me to just sit with my feelings and I actually believe I am going to be okay.

Thank you for expressing yourself.
So much inside of me, hidden, gets to relate, and feel validated, heard, and has a bit of healing as that is occurring.
Not saying this to scare u away, btw 

Must be why I appreciate Parrot breaking up the seriousness with bird brained humor often 

Also wanted to say, not that ya need my permission at all... .
But no reply is needed
Ya never owe me anything
But likely ya know that
Yet part of me feels like stating.

Also wanted to state... .
Totally get the freezing thing... .
So confusing to me cause it is only something relatively new to me to understand
Actually learned from some post around here one day... .
That freezing is another response in addition to fight/flight.
So it is still a definition evolving for me
And still rewriting my own Internal recollections or stuff using this new term, but seeing how much I actually do freeze... and had no idea.

Just feel compelled to say... .
While I was mute for so long, way too long... .
Your posts give voice to many things, concepts, stuff... .
I am still quiet regarding.
Thx for you

[Fie]

I had a rather crappy day today but after having read your last post I feel quite good actually   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri! 

Waving my greetings to you! 
You've come a long ways. I'm glad. There have been many points in my T when I don't know if it's more frightening to look back or to look forward. One is known (the looking back), and the other is unknown (the looking forward) but just as terrifying. Sometimes now I'm even catching glimpses of excitement to look ahead, and strangest of all... .I am finding myself not looking back as much but looking ahead more.

Don't worry about that for yourself right now. I merely wanted to tell you that for once in my life, I am beginning to discover this new place ahead of me and I'm not as afraid. I'm not done with my looking back, oh no, but even though I don't understand it, my journey is changing. I am changing, just like you are before our very eyes.

One week ago I asked him if he too wanted to bang his head against the brick wall in the office everytime he had to repeat something or watch me do the same old pushing away behaviors.

How often I've said to my T that he has so much patience to keep repeating the same things to me over and over again, for all the listening he does too, and he is very kind and says, "We're gonna have patience and repeat it over and over again." I can have oodles of patience with others normally, but with myself? Who's kidding who?

When I first began in T, I thought for sure there was no abuse in my family. Then a few months later, I began asking how one would define abuse, and I asked quite a few people what they thought. It was only when I was ready and able to look the possibility of abuse fully in the face (the painful looking back) that I was free to look forward, knowing and accepting the truth. I'm thankful that the revealing has come in stages for how would we ever survive such an onslaught of emotions if it were not released gradually? Those moments are enough; one at a time please.

Keep going! Fight the fight! Hugs!
 
Wools

[Kwamina]

This thread shows that I am supported.  People care about me. People can accept me in spite of my past.

We care indeed  And yes you are accepted, all of you is accepted, including your past you

... .thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!    

You're welcome! And you know since I'm a parrot, I'm just gonna keep repeating the same things to you over and over again and make you feel uncomfortable over and over again But you know what happens when you allow yourself to be exposed to those uncomfortable feelings over and over again? After a while, it doesn't feel as uncomfortable anymore as it did before, doesn't feel as scary anymore.

Take care

The Comfortable Parrot

[Harri]

Hi all.  There has been so much to think about and absorb here.  I get this stuff intellectually, but emotionally it has, obviously been harder to grasp.  Each gentle poke, question, challenge you all have given me coupled with your patience and compassion have helped me break through the emotional barriers. 

Turkish, thanks for the comparison with battered spouses.  It clicked.  The hook, the ghosts of the past and basic need/want for a loving parent no matter how incompetent are sufficient for me to have made the 'conditioned choices' that kept me in the cycle of abuse.  Everything just fits so well.  I've been thinking about the mother child relationship quite a bit.  I think this particular relationship is the most intimate one you can have, moreso than with an SO or spouse.  We are, quite literally, a part of them.  It is not just biology that makes that true but the nurture part as well, even if it is dysfunctional.

I was a latchkey kid, and also not sexually abused (though I did think it weird when my mom took a bath with me at 3, maybe 4, and had me nurse on her... .I asked to.  That was only one time).

Turkish, that was highly inappropriate of your mother and it being "only one time" does not really change that nor does the fact that you "asked to do it".  As you know, I think it is important for people to define and label their own experiences.  So what label would you put on this? 

Fie, Sunflower, and Kwamina, thanks for the insight on the benefits and limits of labels.  I agree that at certain stages of healing labels can be more important.  I can see it in my own self.  Years ago, BPD was an important label to me in terms of my own healing.  Eventually though, it no longer mattered so much, and I did, like you stated Sunflower, see my mother as the hurt damaged human she was.  I am going to attribute my quest for a label to this new level of healing and understanding.  I am sure with time, it's importance will fade.  Right now though, I think what Kwamina said sums it up for me.  I need to accept and become more comfortable with my own label of victim and survivor of emotional and sexual abuse so that I can heal emotionally and deal with the fear and see all of reality.  That is some pretty wise stuff, especially coming from a bird!

Kwamina, thanks for sharing about your staying with your mom.  I had no idea.  Heh.  When I read that, I thought hey, he is pretty cool and normal so maybe that means I am not all that bad. 

Sunflower, I have never found your comments to be dry or uncaring.  Far from it.  This is not an easy subject matter to jump into and I have to say that the responses that I have received are much more than I had hoped for.  I am glad and thankful that you decided to participate and it helps me to know that parts of you are healing because of that.  I am sure that when you are ready you will face those parts of you that scare you right now and I know that you will face them with courage and grace.

Wools, you reassurances about the normalness of my process in therapy makes me feel warm and comfy.  I am so glad you can look to the future with excitement.  I am so deep in the trenches right now that I am taking it moment by moment.  I think I have said this before but this round of therapy is quite different from those I've had in the past.  Far more intense and exhausting.  So to know you have been there and knowing you have come such a long way is wonderful and so inspiring.  And you lost your fear!  Whooping and hollering for you here... .but in a quite and dignified way... .okay, not really quiet or dignified.  But there is definitely joy and happiness involved!

Rebecca, I am going to do a seperate post in response to you tomorrow. Again, thank you so much for sharing with me.  You also give me hope.

Kwamina, thanks for the promise to keep making me feel uncomfortable.  I must say that you excell at that.     Crazy bird got skillz.

 

[Turkish]

Strange that I remember it well given I was 3, 4 at most.  My ex wanted my to take naked showers with our son. I said no way.  But she reacted like I was molesting then D1 when I was making kissy noises on her ear through her hair, and freaked when then S3 went through a phase of kissing me on the mouth.  

It's hard to understand what's appropriate when a pwBPD is involved.  

[Harri]

Hi Rebecca.  I apologize.  Said I was going to reply to you 'tomorrow', which was yesterday but I did not- I fell asleep! I am so thankful that you shared about the different types of therapy you have done over the years.  Most especially, it was very good for me to know that it is still an ongoing process for you.  Not that I am happy you still need support, but to see that you are okay with the fact that it takes time and that that does not reflect the success or failure of therapy gives me a better perspective and a great deal of relief.  Clearly you have done quite a bit of healing through your hard work and determination.  Congrats on defeating the self-harm and suicidal monsters!  

Reading about the different types of therapy gives me hope as well.  I tend to focus so hard on getting one thing right and feel so anxious about it that I sometimes lose sight of alternative pathways.  I've spent some time thinking about what else I can do to 'get better' and realized that I am trying to speed my way through this again.  I tried that before and thought I did it, only to realize that it was an illusion (as I talked about at the beginning of this thread).  Right now talk therapy is doing wonders with me though.  

I have so many questions about life for you Rebecca!  I don't know if you would feel comfortable answering here or if you prefer PMs... .or even if you are still interested in talking with me about this.  I will ask the big one here though and feel free to disregard if you prefer (anyone reading, please feel free to chime in as well).  I am wondering about disclosure of your past with close friends.  I had one romantic relationship that was a bit of a disaster.  We got together after he knew of a lot of my past so it was easy in a way.  I never had to say "hey, this is what happened to me... ." or whatever it is that one says.  My 'friends' know very little, except for one who knows some, but I have come to realize the friendship is very unbalanced and not healthy for me (we have been friends for about 16 years... .way back when I was a lot more messed up!)  So how does one handle such things?  The day to day conversations where people talk about their childhoods or their family.  Stuff like that.  How have you handled it?  (or anyone else reading this thread as we all have weird stuff in our history).  I can usually work around the past with a joke or some way to avoid giving details but I am stressing about how to handle more intimate relationships (not romantic ones- just friends).  I am no where close to actually having a friend, but the fear is there and has been holding me back for decades from letting people get close (tho there are other reasons for that as well which I am working on in T).

Rebecca, thanks again for opening up with me about your experiences.  

[Harri]

Wools, I keep thinking about where you said you did not know your family situation was abusive until just a few years ago.  So many at this site seem to say the same thing... .they thought their childhood was good or okay only to realize after learning about abuse and BPD here that their childhood was far different than good and was not even okay.    

Turkish, I am always surprised when people can remember things from when they were so young.  It is fascinating to me that even at that age, you knew it was 'weird'.  Your daughter knew her Uncle should not have touched her.  I knew what my mother was doing to me was wrong in that I would hear a man's voice in my head telling me stuff like 'she should not be doing this to you and she should not be saying things like that to you'.  My T helped me to see that that voice was me, as yound as I was, knowing that what was happening was wrong (in spite of my being brainwashed, groomed and raised to take it all).  I had been asking him what I asked here in this thread--->  How come I was too stupid to not know it was wrong when so many others figured it out.  He seems to think I did know and that was my child like way of dealing with it---> this man's voice I used to look forward to hearing when I was little and missed him if he did not talk to me.  

So in my case, I knew, but was trained to ignore what I knew was wrong like many others who did not speak up out of fear or terror.  I think we do know on some level but get the right mix of family/circumstances and personality, and anything is possible, ranging from good and healthy to toxically bad.

[Kwamina]

Turkish, that was highly inappropriate of your mother and it being "only one time" does not really change that nor does the fact that you "asked to do it".

You are right Harri. It only takes one time to totally destroy a child's trust. My mother was emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also affected me physically, but she did have and still has certain boundaries. She was never physically abusive and is very strongly against hitting your children. I don't remember ever feeling like she was physically going to hurt me, though when she goes into a BPD rage, everything can happen of course (like when she threw a saucer that she held in her hand because she was doing the dishes at my non-BPD sister, fortunately she missed her but I never forgot this episode).

She was also never overtly sexually abusive (however very much into emotional incest), but she once did do something highly inappropriate that affected me for years. Once (I probably was 12/13 years old) after I had taken a shower and was still in the bathroom, my mother's mind short-circuited again. She was planning to use the bathroom next, but had heard my brother (narcissistic with explosive rage) getting out of bed and was worried that he was going to use the bathroom before her. So instead of talking to my brother and saying she wanted/needed to use it before him, what did she do? She freaked, opened the bathroom door while I was still in it and came into the bathroom and closed the door behind her  I was very glad that I was already done showering and already had my towel wrapped around me, but what she did still really disturbed me and broke my trust. I could not understand that she did not understand how inappropriate this was and what a clear disrespect of my boundaries she showed here. This happened once and only once and was a clear result of her BPD mind short-circuiting, but the effects on me were still the same as when it would have been an intentional act of sexual abuse. And either way it was still intentional, because even though she freaked, she did intentionally open the door and enter the bath room knowing full and well that I was still in there. She was the one that did it, but I was the one feeling disgusted and dirty and violated. Before this happened, I thought that we did not have to lock the bathroom in our own house because your family would never cross that boundary right? Well wrong... .

It only happened once but I never trusted again and always locked the bathroom door after that incident. The horrible thing was that some time later, the lock of the bathroom door was broken and as with so many things, my mother did not get it fixed. Because of what happened before, this situation with the broken lock made me very uncomfortable. It never happened again, but this one event affected me for years and years and actually 'till this day, I am still on guard whenever I am in the bathroom and other people are also in the house.

[heartandwhole]

I would like to thank you, Harri, and everyone else posting in this thread, for sharing so openly and honestly. It warms my heart that there is a safe place like this to express what we are going through, working on, recovering from.

Harry, I feel humbled and awed at the honesty and courage that you have expressed in this thread. Thank you for inspiring me to be as brave in my life and relationships.  

Surely such acceptance, kindness and love comes with strings attached and all sorts of expectations right?  I mean the next thing I know I am going to have to give away parts of myself again, parts I need to hold onto because they are all I have even though they are damaged and somewhat putrid with all that has come before this point.  How can I possibly share those parts of me?  Surely the fact that they are damaged will cause someone harm right?

I can understand your feelings here, Harri, and can relate to that running—and to thinking that strings are attached to that much kindness.

It is going to be viewed as a whining and poor me post full of drama.  

But wait a minute!  This post definitely is full of red flags and anyone reading this will stay away from me!  Lord knows this place is full of red flag paranoia and here I am waving the red flags right in their faces.  I am literally covered in red flags too!

Ummmm... .Well... .F-you!    Sweet blessed wonderful alienating sarcasm.  

And there I go... .running again.

It makes so much sense that you feel this way. And I feel zero drama and zero pity and zero danger coming out of your expressions here. I see a brave, reflective, kind, and strong person, taking care of herself and sharing what she is finding.

I'm sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. I really get that. I feel that way too, sometimes. I think that discomfort is a signal that we have touched an area that especially wants to open to love.  


heartandwhole

[jhkbuzz]

The truly sick part is that I can't even write stuff like I endured it or tolerated it.  Nope.  Those words do not apply in my situation.  She had to go and make it pleasurable for me and tied it to the good Harri who was praised and 'loved'.  I enjoyed it and even longed for it when she withdrew from me in silence and looked at me with those black eyes.  Those times, she would toy with me... .giving me just enough and then taking it away.

I was molested by my older brother, and I think this ^ was the most difficult part to come to terms with - the overwhelming shame that the experience was sometimes pleasurable. I took on an awful lot of 'ownership' over the molestation (as well as crushing amounts of shame), thinking that if it was sometimes pleasurable then I must be completely at fault, and probably didn't do enough to stop it.

A therapist once explained to me that the simple truth is that the body responds - that's what it does - regardless of the circumstances. If someone tickles you, you laugh - no matter who it is, because it's involuntary. Same with sexual stimulation.

Your comment that it is 'sick' is not true Harri- it's simply the way the human body responds. Compounded  by the fact that it was happening with someone who you loved and who you depended upon for your very existence.

Thank you for sharing so honestly and openly. It's helped me immensely. 

[purekalm]

Hello Harri,

I know so many have said this to you already, but I thank you for sharing this vulnerable part of yourself, your learning process and all your feelings surrounding it. You probably don't believe it at the moment, but you are very brave to post this and to keep responding even though it's hard. I'm so glad that you're able to get help from a T that you're ready to work out the truly tough stuff with.   I just spent a good bit of time reading all the posts in this thread, (due to not being here for awhile and avoiding) and I'm glad I did. 

I totally get the running part, which is why I'm here sometimes and not here others and want so badly to delete my account and try to forget I already revealed so much, ugh.

For me, I was always 'self-aware' I guess you'd say and I knew exactly what was going on (just not in technical terms) and that it was wrong. I just had no way out, and I wanted to believe that things done were not intentional and I knew the reality of four kids being taken away could've landed us in a worse situation, so we decided together to keep our mouths shut.

 I am assuming that for me the grooming didn't work so well because I believe I have Asperger's, (my son has autism and is SO much like me) and I saw and thought things differently always. My parents and everyone around me always knew I was different, even since I was an infant, but there were no tests or labels, I was just 'different' and I don't plan on getting tested now, no point.

Anyways, I say that to say I have two sisters, one older and one younger and a younger brother. All of us dealt with and accepted or denied the abuse in their own ways, even living in the same situation. My younger sister was more like you, she knew what was happening was wrong but was so groomed into accepting and believing it that it took her a long time to admit it and start to deal with it. (He took her under his wing as his personal assistant to teach how to steal, buy/sell and do drugs among other things. This incurred mom's personal wrath towards her more than the rest of us.)

As far as I know we weren't sexually abused, but there is always that weird feeling around my dad who's presence is unsettling when he's in a certain mood and his touch is anxiety inducing. My sisters feel the same, but none of us know why or have any memories, so, that has yet to be revealed if at all.

My mom was the main physical abuser but I agree that the mental and emotional abuse is by far the worst and hardest to acknowledge and overcome. Your story Kwamina of your mom throwing that plate was a normal occurrence for us, but it was whatever was close, a frying pan, broken glass figurine, shoes, books, didn't matter, whatever was close enough.

Once again, thank you Harri for being so honest and vulnerable as you grow. To go from just starting to acknowledge shame to this is so encouraging.   

[fromheeltoheal]

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