Should women with BPD be allowed to have children?

[Rosie90]

I was just wondering on what the opinion is on here of women with BPD becoming mothers?
I have a friend who was diagnosed with BPD a year after having her daughter.
She has never done anything to hurt her child but still feels like a terrible mother. She even said that maybe people like her aren't supposed to have children.
What are your views on this?
Yes a lot of women with BPD can become terrible mothers but what about the ones that despite their problems are raising happy children?
Do you think women with BPD should not have children?

[Rosie90]

I would like to add that her daughter (who is now 4 years old) is a very happy little girl who adores her mother

[oshinko maki]

Gut response says no way they should have kids, but there is maybe no right or wrong answer, just what happens after that decision is made.

I would like to add that her daughter (who is now 4 years old) is a very happy little girl who adores her mother

I cannot even begin to explain how blessed I feel because of my son (our only child), who seems no less mature or wise or loving even though he has never had anything close at all to a loving relationship with his mother, and even though he does not love her or miss her even when she is away for more than a month. Before my son was born even, she told me that I would have to raise him (although I did not believe her), and that has always intrigued me and made me wonder if she knew something. I am too afraid to ask her though (and would not get a relevant answer anyway).
Taking away the right to give birth would be too easily abused I suspect, even though some people with BPD and some people who live with people with BPD surely see the dangers of BPD and parenting. I have seen and heard horrifying things in my situation, but I would not trade my son in for anything.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Welcome Rosie90:   

BPD can be genetic, environmental or a combination of both. Another thing in the mix, is that we can't change the hand we are dealt, but we can choose how we play the hand.  So, there can be a lot of variables in the equation.  Also, BPD behaviors can be tamed for periods of time, but can exhibit in a major way during certain events/life stresses.

BPD is a spectrum disorder, so some people are high functioning and others are low functioning.  I think there is a big difference between someone who is self-aware and seeks treatment, and someone with BPD who is in denial and refuses treatment.

Do you think women with BPD should not have children?

There are two issues to consider: a person with BPD parenting children and then the possibility of genetically passing on BPD to a child.  There appears to be some level of genetics in passing on BPD to children (or a significant number of the traits).  My heart breaks in reading so many of the stories of parents with very low functioning children with BPD, who are suicidal and out of control in many ways. 

I think people need to be responsible and realistic.  If I was aware of a significant mental or physical genetic condition, in multiple generations in my family, I personally wouldn't chance passing on the bad genes.  I'd adopt. 

I think each situation is unique.  I think people should be responsible and realistic about their capacity to provide healthy parenting.  Some people might do fine with one child, but a 2nd or 3rd might be beyond their capacity to parent or take financial responsibility. 

[Dutched]

Would you like to tell us your own opinion as you know the mother and are close enough with her that she confides  ‘I feel like a terrible mother’ and ‘aren’t supposed to have children’.

PwBPD in general try to excuse their behaviour when they feel (and that is a sincere feeling!) that others (you in this case) m i g h t  think that you disagree / disapprove with something she did.
That can be anything you said or even the way you looked (just even a moment) while she was busy with her kid.

Please don’t misunderstand your friend.
She expressed moments of insecurity and the only conclusion for her is, it must be caused by my disorder.
A mom saying that, feeling that about herself! That related to the kid she loves so deeply…

Loving deeply doesn’t imply that she (your friend) can express that love as you/others expect or assume.
Expressing herself makes her vulnerable and insecure even towards the one she loves(!).
BPD is a attachment disorder, afraid of losing that love, yet also rejecting that love.

Yes, there are most likely emotional consequences for kids as the bond that ties with mother will be in a way symbiotic. Meaning, the kids being more dependent, have feelings of guilt and obligation towards mother. Instead of growing up with a independent bond. Causing kids having emotional problems itself later in life.

Back to your question itself. This is a very, very ethical one.
How severe should that BPD be as it is a spectrum disorder?
How severe should any disorder and/ or (genetic) disability be?
There was a TV-series about little people with (little) kids too. Is that okay with you?
Isn’t there child abuse at school by teachers, or at sports clubs?
 
Suppose your friend wasn’t diagnosed, or diagnosed without you knowing about it? Thoughts?

Doesn’t we all have a moment that we think ‘I am not the right person’?

[Rosie90]

I have known my friend for 20 years and can honestly say she has a bigger heart than most people I have met. She loves much stronger and yes this can be a negative thing as she becomes attached very easily. But since her daughter was born she has stayed away from having boyfriends as she does not want that part of her life to affect her child.
When she has a down day she will find it hard to get out of bed and can become very snappy and yes on those days she isn't much fun to be around but luckily has a lot of family support. When she expresses guilt for being a bad mother I know she is genuine. Her mother had MS and my friend grew up a nervous wreck of a child, mainly because of the mood swings that her mother would have. She eventually was sent to live with her grandmother but never got over the feelings she was left with. My friend had always said that she would never let her child feel the same way she did- insecure and afraid. 
This is why she feels so much guilt because she knows how it feels to have a childhood like that and is desperate to not ever have the same affect. Basically she wants her daughter to have an easy childhood with no worries or stress.
 I have read up a lot on BPD since she was diagnosed, even been to see specialists with her to learn all I can (I would like to add that she is medicated and is not going untreated).  A lot of people seem to feel very negatively about others that have BPD, rightly so considering some of the stories I have read and my heart goes out to them. But then I can't help but feel it's also sad that others are tarnished with the same brush. My friend can be manipulative but no more than any other person, she can be selfish but again no more than any other people. I would say in some ways she is a better mother than some I know, never goes out all night and never comes home intoxicated (I am aware there is much more to being a good mother, I am just mentioning this)
She is not a perfect mother and has many flaws but when I see her with her daughter it is obvious how much love there is between them.
But despite this I still want to know what you all think of the question of if women with BPD should have children. Not so much on the genetically passing on to the child but more the emotional aspect as this is the part I have been wondering about the most
I am grateful to all your answers as I am desperate to find out even more on other people's opinions that know first hand what their experience with family members with BPD is.
Also please do not feel in any way that I am trying to make excuses for anyone, I am just giving my own opinion of one individual I have known for many years.

[Naughty Nibbler]

I am grateful to all your answers as I am desperate to find out even more on other people's opinions that know first hand what their experience with family members with BPD is.
Also please do not feel in any way that I am trying to make excuses for anyone, I am just giving my own opinion of one individual I have known for many years.

ROSIEa90:
Why are you desperate for this input? Is someone trying to take away custody from your friend - perhaps the father?

[Dutched]

First I like you to know that your friend found in you a loyal, caring, loving and sincere friend!
Even more as you are willing to invest in learning / handling about BPD.
 
Your reply explains a lot for me. Thanks for clarifying which make me also see that you are worried very much!

I repeat
Yes, there are most likely emotional consequences for kids as the bond that ties with mother will be in a way symbiotic. Meaning, the kids being more dependent, have feelings of guilt and obligation towards mother. Instead of growing up with a independent bond. Causing kids having emotional problems itself later in life.

To add
Because of the inconstancy of mom  (her behaviour of push – pull), children could develop a more insecure and avoiding attachment style themselves.
Meaning just feeling normal love and normal wanted to be loved, but somehow being insecure, somehow having doubts, sometimes difficulty with expressing themselves in deep emotional conversations

As the kid unconsciously(!) learned to deal with certain behaviour (for example upheaval) it could develop a very natural style as being the negotiator (bring people together), smoothen matters.
That in his/her own relationship as well as with others.
Now, that seems to me very positive and highly appreciated by others.

Research seems to show that itself doesn’t mean that a child develop BPD also!
 Lets say that severe triggers in life can cause ‘activation’ of certain behaviour, but still not qualified as BPD!

Have a look at  Dr. Edward Tronick (UMass Boston) , the Still Face Experiment
Using the "Still Face" Experiment, in which a mother denies her baby attention for a short period of time, Tronick describes how prolonged lack of attention can move an infant from good socialization, to periods of bad but repairable socialization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0

Please remind yourself that the behaviour shown doesn’t exclusive apply to pwBPD…

As mentioned, I think to understand that you are worried. Why?

 

[Dutched]

As I was writing my reply, Naughty Nibbler also replied.
I would like to join his question.

[Fie]

Hello 
To respond to your question, we can hardly prevent BPD parents to have children can we ... .;-)
But in an ideal world, my strickly personal answer, as a child of a BPD mum, would be : no.

[oshinko maki]

Hello 
To respond to your question, we can hardly prevent BPD parents to have children can we ... .;-)
But in an ideal world, my strickly personal answer, as a child of a BPD mum, would be : no.

But that "no" (to allowing BPD to have kids) would mean that you would not have been born, right?

[Fie]

But that "no" (to allowing BPD to have kids) would mean that you would not have been born, right?

Yes, that would have been the logical consequence   

[Notwendy]

I think it's unethical to control a person's choice to have a child. Perhaps the question might be should they be allowed to raise a child. There are laws in place for child abuse and neglect, but emotional abuse is hard to measure objectively.

There is a wide range and spectrum for BPD as well. So a statement for all parents with BPD may not really work. There are other conditions that make it hard to be a good parent - other mental illnesses, alcohol and drug addictions. If one says this about BPD- then what about other disorders ?

Other factors influence how much a BPD parent affects a child. Children have their own capacity for resilience. Other resiliency factors include economics and any family support systems and access to treatment.

We can't predict the future for a child. What we can do is advocate for the program's we have for children - education, mental health, social services and involve them if we see a need.

[Rosie90]

Thank you so much for all your replies. I was desperate for input because I have wanted to do all I can to give as much emotional support as I can. But I feel like the only way I can do that is to try and get a realistic view on what is happening. I feel like I needed to know if my friend had a point about women like her not having children. I can try and understand but the only people that could ever understand are people that have been through it, which is why I came to you.
I am genuinely sorry for the pain that BPD has caused you all.
There is no worry about the father because he knows the child is better off with her mother and would never want to cause such heartache for her after knowing how attached they are.
I must say I agree wholeheartedly with everything NotWendy has said.
 Obviously some women with BPD would not be capable of raising a child as many of you have proven. But my friend's specialist told us all about the spectrum and assured us that he has seen many women with BPD that have been brilliant mothers.
My friend's family is also always there and the child has been raised with a lot of love.
I have been asked to be godmother as well so helping and understanding is very important to me. Not just so I can support my friend but also so I can always be there to help my future goddaughter.

[Notwendy]

Rosie, your friend may be expressing her own insecurities about being a parent - in her own way. Kids don't come with instruction manuals! I think at times, every parent wonders if he/she is good enough, or doing the right thing. I imagine having BPD would intensify these feelings.

It is great that you are the godmother. It will help you to learn about the drama triangle so you don't step into any conflicts over the child as "rescuer". From my own background, the way to help is to do what comes naturally - as someone who loves the child- when she is with you. I have a mother with BPD but I also fortunately had other "mothers"- my father's FOO, and some of my friends' mothers.

Sometimes a simple task with my mother would include drama. I recall things like fun shopping trips with my father's sister, baking cookies with a friend and her mom. These simple things weren't things these other mothers even considered to be a big deal, but they were drama free and these women were acting as role models, even if they didn't know it. So you just being there for your godchild, without triangulating with the mother, can have a positive impact.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey Rosie90:   

There is no worry about the father because he knows the child is better off with her mother and would never want to cause such heartache for her, after knowing how attached they are.  My friend's family is also always there and the child has been raised with a lot of love.

I have been asked to be godmother as well, so helping and understanding is very important to me. Not just so I can support my friend but also so I can always be there to help my future goddaughter.

Your friend is very lucky to have you, her family, and the father of her child for support.  It is admirable that you have a desire to learn about BPD and learn how to best understand and support your friend.

It might be helpful, if you start a new thread, with a new title. Something like, "My Friend is a New Mother With BPD - I Need Help to Understand & Support Her".  It would be more productive for you to continue discussion with that focus and a new thread title (and away from debate on whether someone with BPD should have children).  Does that sound like something you would like to do? 

[HappyChappy]

I can not speak for the individual in question in this thread, but speaking broadly philosophically... .

We currently know that someone with BPD has very predictable behaviour.  Behaviour described as “poison to the mental health of a child”. We also know that the vast majority can not change how they behave. Lack of empathy has also been described (by Steven Hawkins) as the biggest risk to man kind. So logically, given that overpopulation is also a problem... .but its not just about logic, I guess.

I remember my BPD regularly joking that you need a licence to own a dog (use to) but anyone can own a child. This was one of her excuses for her abusive behaviour - the goverment let her have a kid, so it's not her fault.

[Notwendy]

One problem with government regulation of any childbearing is how to enforce it. That would involve situations that many people consider unethical.

Where would one draw the line on a spectrum disorder?

There are laws that protect children. If anyone in a child's life suspects abuse (teachers, health care workers) they can report that to social services.

What about other circumstances besides PBD that are not ideal for children- severe poverty, drug or alcohol addicted parents, parents who are criminals?

Proposing such an idea could open Pandora's Box.

What we can do is advocate for children. If we know of a child who has a BPD mother, and we can have an impact on that child as a relative, godparent, then being a role model and caring adult ( and reporting any signs of abuse if we see it) can make a difference for that child.

[HappyChappy]

That would involve situations that many people consider unethical.

You makes some fair points Notwendy. However people often speak of their human rights, but I would say a child’s human rights trump the adult. Because the child needs someone to defend their rights and an adult not so. We don’t wait until someone with poor eyesight crashes a car, we ban them from driving. But I doubt we will see this in our lifetime, people still struggle to accept some mothers can not love.
 
In the UK, it is now a crime to withhold love from a child, as it is to be alone in a room with a child under the age of 8, without their parents permission. So we are slowly stepping in the right direction. 

[Notwendy]

I shudder at the idea of having some government officials determine criteria for reproducing and then enforcing that. Such ideas have been tried before, with dismal results for humanity.

[catclaw]

I feel that we, as humanity and as a society, are not allowed to prevent any minority from reproducing. We has this in ww2 germany and we should learn from it.

There are ways to raise a kid with BPD. We have programs in early education for children of mentally ill parents and especially for children with BPD parents being developed. Sure, there needs to be compliance from the parent's side. So this needs benefits or consequences for the parent - e.g. we have medical examinations scheduled for every kid at birth. The parents are obliged to go there when the kid has a certain age. If they don't, CPS is informed and parents are reminded that it's their duty to go see the pediatrician. If they don't, there will be legal consequences. This could be a way for providing early education for children of bod parents and granting compliance.
Other than that there's the conceot of supported parenting which respects the wish to procreate and found a family of people with cognitive/ mental disabilities and supports the parent and the kid during their journey and giving stabilizing help, instructions etc.

[catclaw]

I shudder at the idea of having some government officials determine criteria for reproducing and then enforcing that. Such ideas have been tried before, with dismal results for humanity.

Exactly my thoughts. This raises so much room for abuse of power... .

[HappyChappy]

Exactly my thoughts. This raises so much room for abuse of power... .

So if there was a way to prevent Ted Bundy and Hitler from ever repeating, to stop paedophiles and ISIS from ever forming, you would say no ? Surely  if we had the science to do this, it would just be another medical breakthrough ? And in terms of people abusing power, it is empathy that keeps human kind safe. So ironically genetic engineering may be our best chance of preventing the abuse of power. This was Stephen Hawkins very point.

[Rock Chick]

Perhaps the question should be 'should women with BPD have kids?' rather than 'should women with BPD be allowed to have kids?'. I don't think we (nor the government) should take away their rights to have kids nor should we start genetically modifying or whatever as someone else commented. In some cases I would say definitely no some women with BPD should not have kids. In other cases I would say some if they wanted to have kids they should and should be allowed to. I personally would not want to have kids if I had BPD but thats just me. Additionally I'd be hesitant because of the history of mental illness on both my side of the family and my bf's (esp.his side) to have kids of our own. I wouldnt want to pass our genes on nor have our children go threw the h**l those with BPD in my and his family life have gone threw and do go threw every day of their lives etc. Although yes I understand BPD is not just genetic it can also be environmental or both and just because someone has BPD or has a family member with BPD doesnt mean ones children would. But thats just my view pt and if I have offended anyone I'm sorry it was not my intention to nor to upset anyone etc. As well I am not always good at wording things either so sorry again all.

[catclaw]

To genetically "engineer" empathy there must me a proof first that empathy (or the lack thereof) lies in the genes. Same with mental illness. There's (as far as i know) no genetic marker. Mental illness happens to have a higher familiar incidence - not to be confused with being genetic.
The question would be: what was there first? There are several studies that show a tendency of people in powerful postion to show psychopathic traits. Remember the stanford prison experiment?
How much is actually personality and how much of it is socialisation? And how much is just plain old human nature?

This is too much of an ethical question. By saying "women with BPD should not be allowed to have children" you not only  question the mother's abulity to parent. You question the existence of the children and their quality of life. And decide if their life is worth living. I am sorry, but i don't think anyone should be in that position.

[Harri]

Hi Rosie.  Interesting question.  I will get to my answer in a second.  first though I wanted to say that when your friend is saying that she thinks she should not have kids (or however she worded it) it may in fact be her way of acting out in a sense.  Some BPDs are outward acting- like raging, throwing things etc and others are inward acting- very quiet, low self esteem, hating themselves, etc.  I just wanted to mention this as sometimes the inward acting or quiet borderline behaviors can be missed or are sometimes viewed as less damaging as the more obvious ones.  I don't know your friend, obviously, but the inward acting/quiet borderlines tend to be more waif like (see the book 'understanding the borderline mother' by Lawson) and much less obvious in their poor coping skills and defensive behaviors.  So while they may not be raging and aggressive, their behaviors are often highly manipulative and emotionally abusive in more subtle and ways.  Regardless, any child raised by any borderline mother (or father) will be affected.  How effected will obviously vary from individual to individual.

As for whether or not they should have kids?  I would say no.  This is all hypothetical anyway so I am just going to be direct.  BPD is pervasive.  Emotional abuse is damaging.  In the case of your friend, she and her child are lucky that she is in treatment, has family and friends to support them and have access to programs that can provide needed services.  The only way the social programs mentioned by others here can help is:
1) the parent is actually diagnosed as BPD
2) the parent is willing to accept help from these programs ... .and actually qualifies for services based on income
3) the parent allows the child to receive the services available in their community
4) family and friends are not just willing but able to consistently help in healthy ways and to ensure that both the mother and child receive the needed services

I am sure there are other conditions that I have not thought of.  Regardless it is a daunting task at best and near impossible at worst.  How many are acctually diagnosed?  How many who are diagnosed are capable of following their treatment plan and staying in therapy?  How many are considered to no longer be BPD simply because they no longer meet the 5 of 9 criteria needed for a diagnosis?  What if they only meet 4?  Looking at the criteria, even only meeting 3 or 4 criteria puts any child at high risk for emotional abuse.  Quite frankly, depending on the criteria met, a person 'only' meeting 4 could be harder and worse to deal with than someone meeting 5 or 6.

So yeah.  No, they should not have kids IMO.  Nor should alcoholics, drug addicts, pedophiles, NPDs, ASPDs, or people who are just clueless about kids and how to raise them.  

Now, would I vote for such a thing?  Of course not.
But I can still wish for pie in the sky stuff while trying my best to raise awareness and educate myself as much as I can.

I personally like the idea of GMCs - Genetically Modified Children.  Make sure they have the empathy gene.  Get rid of bullies, perverts, people with anger management issues.

I support GMCs!