Need support - stating the importance of my emotions

[ampersandalz]

Last night I had therapy -- each time I go, I do my best to catch my therapist up with my relationship problems, but I have been working harder to delve into issues within myself, my past, my family and friends. I don't want to make my entire life any more about my significant other than it already is - I mean, I already left my dreams, job, family, and friends to move across the country and support her goals.

Upon getting home, she was her normal self.  No concerns.  I ate dinner, she studied, business as usual.  I was tired, it was a long day, I was out of the house for 12 solid hours and I woke up at 5 AM.  When I responded "too neutrally" to her "positive tone" the entire situation changed.

She became short without any warning, acting distant, telling me I was making her claustrophobic by sitting too near her.  I asked what was wrong and she told me that "if I'm not going to give her the responses she wants to her trying to be positive, why should she try at all?"  I apologized, said I had no clue I was acting any less than positive and I appreciate her. 

She asked why I hadn't responded to something she sent me on my phone and I advised that my phone died on the way home, it was a long day and I have to GPS everywhere here since I still don't know the area very well.  This set her off.  She went back to being short and abrupt and I asked what the problem was.  She said "your phone never dies any other day.  Why today?  You always have a charger."  I told her I didn't realize until I was leaving work and didn't have time to charge it.  She said that was a "convenient excuse."

At that moment I stood my ground and said that I was not going to tolerate anything that even resembled an accusation (she has a longstanding habit of accusing me of cheating, things ranging from her recent insistence that she "heard someone going down the back stairs while she was coming up the front" going all the way to making up stories that never happened to try and "get a confession".  She then raised her voice and said I should "pick my battles" and we can either "drop it or it won't be pretty."  That really set me off -- I don't believe that an expression of my emotions or feelings, especially regarding continuous accusations of something I take very seriously (and have NEVER done) should be a battle.  I expressed my feelings with "I" statements rather than reverse accusations, I did my best not to JADE, and I stood firmly expressing my feelings. 

She responded verbally with swearing and anger and I responded by saying that I would also not tolerate being spoken to with such disrespect, as I do not speak to her in such a way and I don't think it's right.  I maintained an even tone, staying as calm as possible, and she continued to escalate, getting to the point that she was sobbing and kept yelling at me, saying "she doesn't want to do this right now."  At first I said "OK" and advised I was going to take a walk -- she said fine and then immediately called for me to come back, asking why I was "acting this way towards her."  I explained again that while I understand she is busy, there is truly never a "good time" to talk about these things and I am doing my best to be honest and straightforward with my feelings so she can know what is on my heart and mind -- she just got angrier and I told her that her accusations were not necessary and I was not interested in being in a relationship where I am constantly falsely accused of things.  She said "fine, guess we're over then" to which I flippantly responded "fine" before we both doubled back -- for reference, she has brought up ending the marriage NUMEROUS times in these scenarios, any time I stand my ground in a fight, and I have never, ever suggested it (but if I don't rebuff it passionately and immediately, she accuses me of wanting to leave her). 

She apologized, but then said it would be "nice if I apologized, too."  I said that I didn't know what to apologize for -- I was just stating my feelings and I'm sorry if my words made her upset or if I had inadvertently done something to make her feel unappreciated, but I see voicing my concerns as a very important thing.  She then huffed, got up, and went to bed, refusing to speak to me or touch me the entire night.  I tossed and turned trying to sleep and woke up in the morning trying to ease things over (I had sat next to her and apologized for the situation, as I don't feel it is beneficial to apologize for my actions. Moreso I expressed my appreciation of her as a person and her hard work and made it clear that I love and care about her.)  Things were between awkward and fine all morning until I was about to leave for work - she became short again and I have since tried to ease the situation via text while I'm stuck at work and she refuses to respond to me.

Sorry for the length, but this is very stressful for me.  I want so badly to be in control of my emotions and I do not want to see such a long-standing relationship go down the drain because of these issues, things that in the long run we have both played a part in, but I can honestly say are primarily perpetuated by her.  It is more difficult now because I sincerely believe my family wants me to leave the relationship (though they would never actually say it), my friends have all offered me places to stay if "things get to that point" and my therapist pretty much tells me "you have to make a decision if you want a change and you have to stop making excuses for her behavior."  I also (maybe prematurely) suspect an intervention by my friends over the next year because of the situation I am in.  It hurts me because I love my wife dearly and cannot imagine life without her, but I am in so much pain so often that it is heartbreaking, especially without a support system of family and friends anywhere less than 1000 miles away.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[malibu4x]

Ampersand

Welcome to the group.  Sorry you are going through this.  It is extremely frustrating.  As I read through your post, it looks like something I may have just written myself.  So similar. My family and friends are on other side of country.   My wife and I do this back and forth thing where I'm trying to be calm, trying to explain to her (in hopes that she will have some compassion/insight on my perspective).  In the heat of the moment it never works, and usually ends up with her threatening divorce, storming off or calling me abusive because I'm trying to prove my point and she hates it and starts to cry.  (I'm "abusive" b/c I make her cry - when this conversation with an emotionally stable person would have been just a normal exchange)... .  it is really exhausting and I can relate to your pain. 

I'm also working to save my relationship and marriage.  My friends have an internal joke betting on when we will get divorced.   My parents would probably jump with joy... .  but I do love my wife, and I love my family.   There are many many good and great moments together, but of course there is always the realization that at one point or another "the other shoe is going to drop."

Anyway... .  on a more positive note... . 

In addition to the lessons on the right, two books that I have found useful are:

"The High Conflict Couple" Dr. Fruzzetti  (good skills and ideas in here)
"Overcoming BPD: A Family Guide for Healing and Change". Valerie Porr   (this one in particular has given me much more compassion for her condition)

One thing that I have been starting to learn is to validate her feelings  even if I don't agree with her view or opinion, I can validate her feelings.   "Yeah, I hear you, it is frustrating when you can't track me down on my phone.  Anyone would feel like that."   Done in the right way, it has the effect of cool water on a fire, and helps keep things calmer to carry on the next part of the conversation... .

I have found what seems to be a good DBT therapist.  (In the past I have - we have - gone to family/couples therapists - but they were not skilled in BPD knowledge and treatment, and often times, their suggestions backfired).

I'm really just a padwan on this journey... .  others with more experience please chime in.   

[ampersandalz]

I appreciate your reply.  I've read through "Stop Walking on Eggshells" which has helped me maintain a calmer tone and I have since realized the importance of doing more for myself.

I suppose much of my frustration now comes from the fact that because she is always busy, I cannot express things that are serious to me for they will make her "too anxious" or "upset her night after a long day."  Problem is... .she's a student that will be going into a high stress field for the rest of her life.  There will never be a good day at that rate.

I have done my best to validate her feelings - I do so constantly, but when so many of her feelings are accusations of something I would never even dream of doing, it just feels to be in vain.  How can I validate stories that are purely false, based on nothing but what her mind has conjured?  I do my best to say "I know you think that is what happened, but I am telling you it did not." 

I feel so broken now.  It is even harder when my therapist, who initially was an advocate of me doing all I could to support my marriage has even changed her tone, stating that my words are more often heard by her from women who are in emotionally and physically abusive relationships.  She cannot tell me to leave my marriage, but it seems so clear that she and everyone else I know believe it is what I need to do.  Every bit of logic in me tells me that I am being mistreated on a near daily basis, but those few moments of gratification, the "good times" just totally reverse me -- I feel euphoric, like nothing in the world can go wrong... .and then it does and I hit rock bottom.

I just want happiness.  The problem is, I no longer know what that means or how to obtain it.  I used to have so many hobbies, things I looked forward to -- I traveled constantly and had many friends and relationships that were important to me.  Now I have none of that, my hobbies relegated to a few hours a week and the rest wiped away.  I don't even look forward to going home for the holidays because she makes a fuss when my family wants to spend time with me -- I have to act like they're "forcing me to come home" in order to escape the wrath and guilt-tripping that comes with me simply stating that they're important to me and I want to be around them.  Whether she realizes it or not, I feel she has tried to isolate me from every other strong force in my life.  She borderline hates my closest friend, finds something wrong (or tries to tell me how she feels I've been wronged by) my other friends (even though they live hundreds of miles away), constantly expresses criticism of my family to me and gets upset if I don't agree with her.  I want to be a person who feels honest and sincere with himself and others, but I have spent this many years torn from that ability that I feel I no longer know how to do it for fear of the consequences.

[Grey Kitty]

I have done my best to validate her feelings - I do so constantly, but when so many of her feelings are accusations of something I would never even dream of doing, it just feels to be in vain.  How can I validate stories that are purely false, based on nothing but what her mind has conjured?  I do my best to say "I know you think that is what happened, but I am telling you it did not."

Validation is subtle, and takes practice--you will get better over time.

One thing you don't do is validate the invalid. If you are accused of something you didn't do, that's not valid, so don't try to validate it.

Another thing about validation is to know when to use it. The best/easiest time to validate her feelings is when she's not terribly upset, or at least not upset at you. If she's already upset at you, ranting, yelling, accusing, etc., then she probably won't be receptive to validation even if you do it right. Removing yourself from the attack is a much better approach, especially if your first attempt at validation then doesn't work.

She has every right to feel upset and angry. She doesn't have a right to use you as an emotional punching bag just because she's feeling that way. Don't take that role on just because you think you "should" validate her.

Here's a good example of how you can unintentionally invalidate her feelings, which messes up any attempt at validation on your part:

She asked why I hadn't responded to something she sent me on my phone and I advised that my phone died on the way home, it was a long day and I have to GPS everywhere here since I still don't know the area very well.  This set her off.  She went back to being short and abrupt and I asked what the problem was.  She said "your phone never dies any other day.  Why today?  You always have a charger."  I told her I didn't realize until I was leaving work and didn't have time to charge it.  She said that was a "convenient excuse."

Her question there is INVITING you to invalidate her, and that is guaranteed to set her off. (Which it did!)

What do you think she was feeling? I'd guess upset, hurt, or rejected that you didn't respond earlier... .perhaps suspicious or afraid that you were avoiding her, or cheating or something. Note that what she's feeling isn't exactly what she said, or completely clear in her question.

If you answer directly, you are invited to pick from the invalidating response set: JADE. Any time you Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain, you are (in effect) telling her this: "What you are feeling is WRONG because I didn't do that."

In this case, it is worth a short answer, which does include an explanation. "My cell died, so I haven't seen the text. I'm sorry about that."

But don't let yourself get pulled into more rounds of this. It will only make things worse. Instead try to validate her feelings. "You sound upset that I didn't respond." might work. It invites her to talk about how she feels about it--and her feelings are real and valid.

Asking questions can be better than speaking to how she feels; guessing wrong is likely to piss her off, but being curious about how she's feeling is pretty safe.

Does this help?

[malibu4x]

Great response Grey Kitty.  Learning a lot from your post. Thanks

[ampersandalz]

Validation is subtle, and takes practice--you will get better over time.

One thing you don't do is validate the invalid. If you are accused of something you didn't do, that's not valid, so don't try to validate it.

Another thing about validation is to know when to use it. The best/easiest time to validate her feelings is when she's not terribly upset, or at least not upset at you. If she's already upset at you, ranting, yelling, accusing, etc., then she probably won't be receptive to validation even if you do it right. Removing yourself from the attack is a much better approach, especially if your first attempt at validation then doesn't work.

She has every right to feel upset and angry. She doesn't have a right to use you as an emotional punching bag just because she's feeling that way. Don't take that role on just because you think you "should" validate her.

Here's a good example of how you can unintentionally invalidate her feelings, which messes up any attempt at validation on your part:
Her question there is INVITING you to invalidate her, and that is guaranteed to set her off. (Which it did!)

What do you think she was feeling? I'd guess upset, hurt, or rejected that you didn't respond earlier... .perhaps suspicious or afraid that you were avoiding her, or cheating or something. Note that what she's feeling isn't exactly what she said, or completely clear in her question.

If you answer directly, you are invited to pick from the invalidating response set: JADE. Any time you Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain, you are (in effect) telling her this: "What you are feeling is WRONG because I didn't do that."

In this case, it is worth a short answer, which does include an explanation. "My cell died, so I haven't seen the text. I'm sorry about that."

But don't let yourself get pulled into more rounds of this. It will only make things worse. Instead try to validate her feelings. "You sound upset that I didn't respond." might work. It invites her to talk about how she feels about it--and her feelings are real and valid.

Asking questions can be better than speaking to how she feels; guessing wrong is likely to piss her off, but being curious about how she's feeling is pretty safe.

Does this help?

Thank you.  It certainly helps.  My therapist has suggested simply no longer asking "what's wrong?" if she seems to be in a "mood" or upset about something that I can't immediately gauge from context. 

A friend also advised that sometimes all I can do in the midst of being told that I'm wrong (yet simultaneously being told that me not simply agreeing with her means I "always have to be right" is simply remind myself daily that "I am right."  Not even for the sake of any type of moral superiority, moreso just preventing myself from feeling like I'm always wrong in all I do.

I'm just becoming weary, I suppose.  My entire life revolves around her.  Every argument leaves me with a threat of her leaving yet if I don't fight tooth and nail against this threat she says it's because "I clearly want to leave her."  I love her so much, we have so many great memories and our good days are great, but no longer having a life of my own has become taxing.

My friends have asked me to travel overseas with them next year as it's something we've never been able to do together and her response was "fine, do what you want" followed by "but know I'm not going to be happy about it and I'll make sure you know."  Is it so wrong to want to look forward to doing something for myself?  Can I have one thing to myself without feeling guilty?

Sorry, now I'm just venting, I guess.  I just want to be happy.  Whatever that means.

[malibu4x]

My friends have asked me to travel overseas with them next year as it's something we've never been able to do together and her response was "fine, do what you want" followed by "but know I'm not going to be happy about it and I'll make sure you know."  Is it so wrong to want to look forward to doing something for myself?  Can I have one thing to myself without feeling guilty?

One thought here - maybe suggest she do something similar  - maybe even before you would go.  Does she have some friends she would like to do a girls weekend or trip or something?

Just this past week when things were really bleak for us and she was very depressed, I signed her up for a yoga class later that evening.  (I was ready to accept if she decided not to go - either way)... .

Me: hey I found that [local yoga studio] has a "beginners and beyond" class tonight.  would you like to do that?  I've got it pulled up on my laptop and ready to reserve a spot.
Her: hmm... .sure
Me: cool   <leaves the room>

Couple hours later she showered, got ready, went out to the class, then went for dinner with a girlfriend after.
She came home late-ish (10:45), and came to find me in my office, to say "thank you so much for doing that and helping me get out of the house today.  it would be great to do something like that one night a week.  it was so nice for me to have the "night off".  thanks for taking care of kids so I could get out.   You should do something like that for you too - maybe hang out with one of the guys, go to gym, or something so you can have a 1night a week break as well."

Long story short - she totally changed when I showed her that I was in tune to her needs, and then she wanted to take care of my needs.

Not sure if this applies, but thought it might be relevant.

[ampersandalz]

One thought here - maybe suggest she do something similar  - maybe even before you would go.  Does she have some friends she would like to do a girls weekend or trip or something?

I wish that were the case, but she's in a school situation that has her so completely bogged down that doing much of anything other than study happens only once in a blue moon and even then it's usually a singular night out with friends.  I've taken a few small trips to visit friends and family since I've been almost entirely incapable of developing new friends here as all of my time spent out of the house is micro-managed and questioned and even when it's not she at the very least acts suspicious of me.  I'm a homebody at heart, but it still hurts to feel so alone.

I do feel for her and her schooling is a unique situation.  My standpoint before was that her dreams and school come first -- but when that standpoint got me nowhere and my sacrifice of leaving my life behind to support her is rarely met with understanding or thanks, it gets doubly frustrating.  Not to say I'm heroic by any stretch of the word, I did what I did to be close to the person I love.  I just didn't realize it would drop me into a seemingly endless pit of thankless isolation.  I don't just work full-time, I handle 80% of the chores (basically everything save for most cooking and dishes sometimes) and get chastised when I don't take care of those things in what she deems to be a timely manner. 

We were together for quite some time prior to marriage - many, many years, and things didn't get this way until now.  I thought marriage would be a continued partnership.  Instead it has been me constantly finding something else to sacrifice on her altar of approval at the expense of my comfort, hobbies, and happiness.

[Grey Kitty]

... .simply no longer asking "what's wrong?" if she seems to be in a "mood" or upset about something that I can't immediately gauge from context. 

  Good plan. Asking "what's wrong?" is inviting her to speak on the "source" of the problem. And in her mind, the "source" is that you did something that caused her feelings. Which is exactly where you don't want to start going--you know that path all too well! And further, there is nothing to validate in taht part.

"You sound upset/angry/sad/etc." is subtly different. It is about her feeling. Acknowledging and accepting her feelings are validating. So is asking about her feelings.

Again, this is subtle stuff and takes some practice, but you may well find that it helps a lot. Also, don't save your attempts at validation for when she's upset. If she's happy or excited, you can validate that too.

My friends have asked me to travel overseas with them next year as it's something we've never been able to do together and her response was "fine, do what you want" followed by "but know I'm not going to be happy about it and I'll make sure you know."  Is it so wrong to want to look forward to doing something for myself?  Can I have one thing to myself without feeling guilty?

It isn't wrong for you to go on this trip.
It absolutely isn't wrong for you to want to go on this trip.

Yes, it will trigger fears, feelings of abandonment, jealousy, etc. from her, and you have to deal with those, and any acting out that comes along with it.

She may well try to send you on a guilt trip. Whether you feel guilty is ultimately your choice, although I'd say that you can influence your feelings, rather than control them.

Dividing up this kind of mess into the parts that are YOURS and the parts that are HERS will help you feel more sane and make better choices!

[ampersandalz]

Thanks again for the words of wisdom.  I am realizing more and more each day that one of the most important things I can do for myself is continue to post here and seek support.  My therapist has suggested I take a daily record of her "moods," doing something as simple as ranking the 1-5.  She says it will help maintain objectivity within the cycle of abuse, as my greatest difficulty comes in the fact that at our worst I can't fathom how I continue and at our best I feel foolish for ever doubting our relationship.

I have also done my best to reach back out to my friends from home.  They are mostly aware of the situation and have done their best to provide caring words while not making suggestions as to how I should handle it, which I greatly appreciate.  In talking to one of my close friends, I was reminded of something very hurtful she said to me during a sexual "lull" we were having (I addressed this in another thread, but when I would try to initiate, she wouldn't be in the mood, but then if I didn't she would get mad and say my lack of initiation made her feel unwanted and I'm not trying hard enough).  She went on a tirade about how we just "didn't work" any more and should split up so she can "find someone else before she's 30 so she can still have something to enjoy while she's young."  I forgot how much that stung until I remembered it.  Even worse, which I didn't recount to my friend, is that it was said in the context of "if you won't please me sexually, what can you do for me?"  We've been together for quite some time and have always (up until more recently) had a pretty healthy sex life, so these comments made me feel, well, worthless.  That argument happened many months ago, but it's hard to forget such cutting words.

Now, even on days that seem better, I just find myself doing my best to keep the peace and keep her happy.  When she's not mad at me, she is sad and says she's mad at herself.  Last night she kept repeating how she was "angry at herself" and every time I tried to provide a comforting word, saying "I love you" and "I care about you" she would just shake her head "no."  Every time I would ask what was making her feel that way, she would stay silent until I prodded enough, at which point she'd just say "I'm sleepy."  The only thing that hurts worse than the words she uses to hurt me is the way she seems to feel about herself.  Something I can't combat no matter how hard I try.  As I've said so many times, being so consistently told that I don't love her or care about her (regardless of my efforts to show that I do) is really difficult to cope with.

[malibu4x]

Has there been any discussion of her getting help for depression?

[ampersandalz]

Has there been any discussion of her getting help for depression?

It is a suggestion I have made numerous times with varying degrees of intensity.  Her excuses range from lack of money to lack of time to not wanting it on her "personal reputation."

[malibu4x]

Depression fortunately doesn't have the stigma it used to... .but sounds like she still looks at it that way.   It is tough.

I found this article helpful for me in the past.

www.rd.com/health/wellness/how-to-cope-with-a-depressed-spouse/

Recommended approach from the article:

Break the ice gently yet firmly. If you suspect your partner is depressed, don’t blurt out a layperson’s diagnosis: “You’re depressed!” or announce: “You better get help!” In order to begin the process of healing, approach your spouse with concern and with an action plan.

You might say, “I’m concerned about how feeling sad and tired are affecting you. You deserve to feel better." 

Saying something like this worked for me and my wife did seek to meet with a doctor... .  but it wasn't easy... .

Depending, you may add:
"... .You deserve to feel better. Our doctor may be able to help you, and I’d like to arrange a time when we can meet with him. Next week, I can go on Wednesday or Friday. What’s good for you?”

Not sure if that is the best approach, but I have seen it move things forward for my wife... .

[ampersandalz]

Thanks for the article and the insight!  I guess another point to make is that my wife is very confident in her own assessments of situations she is in -- what she believes is the truth.  While she can acknowledge her own depression and anxiety, she has already assessed that therapy will not do anything for her and that is her conclusion. 

She does not take my advice or suggestions with much seriousness as she already believes she is the only one who knows best for herself.  Which is fine, I can accept that, but in situations such as this it only makes me feel that much more hopeless.

I am trying to do what I can to provide love in a way that is obvious and overwhelming, making sure to provide physical touch and a kind tone in all interactions.  I love her very much and above and beyond anything just want her to find happiness and peace in her daily life. 

[malibu4x]

I hear ya Ampersandlz,

Same here - mine is very sure of her opinions most all of the time, and it is very very difficult to help her see outside of her own assessments.  Very difficult.   

Sounds like you are doing some really good stuff.

I'm not sure if you saw one of my other posts, but I've started reading this book and have found it extremely helpful in giving me some conversational skills  (validation and empathy).  In addition to the lessons on the right rail, it has really made a change in my perspectives and actions and have seen already a lot of improvement just by me applying it's principles. 
https://bpdfamily.org/2011/03/how-to-support-someone-with-borderline.html

(word to the wise though - don't pull a rookie move like me and forget to clear your amazon book browsing history)

[ampersandalz]

I, as always, appreciate the response and time taken by everyone who has read and replied.

Just posting to state I am feeling a bit low this morning.  Sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming -- a bit too much to jump back from and, as a person with his own depression and anxiety (that is, admittedly, much worse off now that it's the winter), it's difficult.

I can never live up to her expectations.  There is so much pressure put on me in everything I do.

I planned for weeks to go to an office Christmas party -- she was well aware and fine with it.  I invited her, she was busy, no worries.  Told her I wouldn't be long, grab a drink and some dinner, just didn't feel like hanging around all night.  It started at 5:30.  I told her I was headed there at 5:20 and she told me to let her know if I'd be leaving any later than 6?  I told her hey, I want to at least have time to eat/drink when I get there and she said she asked because I had stated I "wouldn't be long" and she didn't know "why it would take me an hour and a half to eat dinner and have a drink."  I did my best to stay calm and I do admit, I immediately went to explanation which wasn't necessary, but she has a way of speaking to me via text where she makes it VERY clear she's unhappy and it started setting off my own anxiety.  I sat outside the party in my car for five minutes just repeating "My emotions are my own, I have to be confident."  I went to the party and realized being there that over the past year of dealing with this, my isolation has turned into social anxiety.  I could barely deal with it.  Downed two drinks and tried to leave before food even came out (even though at that point my wife was insisting via text that I should stay and eat if I "waited that long?".  I'm glad I convinced myself to go at all, but being in this kind of situation more often than not as a person who has developed this terrible mix of depression, anxiety, and downright co-dependency is beyond nerve-wracking.  I cannot do this for the rest of my life.

Her school stress blankets almost all of our interactions, especially now that she's in her finals week.  I understand stress and will do what I can to be supportive, but her inability to differentiate between being frustrated and taking out her frustrations on me is getting more and more upsetting.  I am downright fearful during these times because if one tiny thing "triggers" her she just becomes... .beyond unpleasant.  She asks me to stand in the kitchen to keep her company while she cooks, but because I was "in her walk way" she screams that "if I'm gonna be in the kitchen I need to stay the hell out of her way because she already doesn't have time to cook dinner" (though cooking dinner is always her idea, she says she enjoys it, and will often insist on it if I have already offered to order food when she's busy).  When I back off, she says "what, just gonna stand there all silent and awkward now?  Might as well go do something else then."  I can't win.

I hate feeling this way.  Sorry, just a bad morning.  She wasn't even all that bad this weekend.  Just so many things adding up to one big picture and wondering if and how I will ever find happiness in life again.

[Grey Kitty]

Man, that really bites.

I mean the "Tell me if you are leaving later than 6" was messed up!

Drinks at 5:30... .dinner won't be served before 6, of course you won't be leaving that soon!

Remember--her own stress and disorder has her mind chasing its own tail. If you try to follow that, you're going to drive yourself nuts.

The only stability and sanity you will find is if you make it yourself. You're scared, and a bit lost, but deep down you have your values and your own truth. Stick to it.

Let me ask... .what do you do to take care of yourself? Physical activity or exercise is good for you. So is time alone / time away from your wife at least upon occasion.

[ampersandalz]

Let me ask... .what do you do to take care of yourself? Physical activity or exercise is good for you. So is time alone / time away from your wife at least upon occasion.

Not enough, really.  I get up, handle what I can before work (eat breakfast, pack lunch, take the dog out, feed the pets, etc.), go to work, come home, eat dinner, and then just kinda sit around through the evening.  If she's busy, I indulge my hobbies for as long as possible.  If she's not, we either sit and watch a show or just passively put cable on while she relaxes (which isn't really how I like to do things, but she's busy, I get the need for rest)

I used to go out to concerts, play board games with people, try and make new friends.  Not any more.  Every time I try it's met with opposition to the point that even if I push myself past it I spend the entire time shuddering from anxiety until I give up and go home.  Alone time is few and far between and as a homebody my best moments are any that I get to just sit by myself and breathe.

I used to go to the gym about twice a week before work, but even that became a bit difficult from a combination of my own exhaustion and her trying to coerce me to stay in bed longer.  Now, however, I've lost a significant amount of muscle mass (from the little I already had) and she comments about how I'm "too skinny now" and jokes about how out of shape I've become, even saying things like "I didn't sign on for this!" and asserting how I should be doing "something physical" and "stop making excuses for myself."  Guess it's frustrating because I was trying for so long and, I feel, making very good progress, progress I was proud of, until I just gave up from the pressure to stay home.  Never got many compliments then, so I guess it's frustrated now that I'm getting the opposite.

I plan to try and get on a decent routine at home at the very least, if I can bring myself to get up early enough.  It's just difficult with everything else.

[Grey Kitty]

I used to go out to concerts, play board games with people, try and make new friends.  Not any more.  Every time I try it's met with opposition to the point that even if I push myself past it I spend the entire time shuddering from anxiety until I give up and go home.

When you say that your efforts to take care of yourself or do things you enjoy are met with opposition, what exactly do you mean?

I've got zero surprise that she is doing that... .but not enough idea how to help you cope with it.

Please be as specific and concrete as you can about what happens, what she says, what she does, and how you feel. It might be better to describe one specific but typical incident, instead of the general pattern.

We can help you cope and overcome this.

[ampersandalz]

When you say that your efforts to take care of yourself or do things you enjoy are met with opposition, what exactly do you mean?

I've got zero surprise that she is doing that... .but not enough idea how to help you cope with it.

Please be as specific and concrete as you can about what happens, what she says, what she does, and how you feel. It might be better to describe one specific but typical incident, instead of the general pattern.

We can help you cope and overcome this.

She typically takes two paths.  I'm a very organized person, a planner in most of the things I do, and I always let her know (at least) days ahead of time when I have something I'm planning to do.  She will express how it's totally fine, often even saying she thinks it'll be good for me to go and get out of the house, which makes me feel great, until the time actually comes and then, like clockwork, she will either... .

A. Start trying to butter me up, acting like she doesn't want me to go so we can spend time together.  Talk about how she'll go ahead and be done with work for the day so she can hang out with me since she'd rather I not leave.  I have expressed that my plans are important to me, but she's very, very resilient with this.  The most common situation is she will back me into a corner with it, putting constant pressure until I give in or get mad.  If I give in, she gets her way.  If I get mad, she scoffs and walks away saying she was "just kidding" and she's "sorry I don't want to hang out with her" and she "guesses she doesn't want to hang out with me either."  It puts the burden of fault on me no matter how I spin it and while I do my best to validate her feelings, it's the resiliency that makes it difficult.  It's as if she is completely incapable of simply saying "ok, see you later! have fun!"  I do not remember the last time she said that to me when I was leaving the house -- she always tries to find a way to get me to stay and acts offended if I don't play along.  Alternatively, she'll make plans with a friend and then ask me to go with them instead and I will say I already have plans and she'll try to convince me why I should go with her instead.  I have told her this makes me uncomfortable and makes me feel like my plans aren't important, but that just means she switches more often to the first method of just trying to keep me home.

B. She'll try to micromanage my time before I even leave.  If I'm going to a concert or something, the first question is when I'll be home.  I say, well, I don't know, but judging by how long I anticipate this to last if things go according to plan, I'd think it'd be over by 11 or 11:30?  That's when she starts to tell me what her responses will be based on when I get home.  11 is fine.  11:30, she says, she won't be happy with but it's not a big deal.  12:00 and I should just go ahead and "expect her to be mad."  12:30 or later and she'll be furious but she "thinks it's fair to warn me ahead of time."  For reference, nothing ever really ends by the time she wants it to, but if I start the conversation with a later time I get chastised and questioned on "why on Earth it will take that long." 

This is all doubly frustrating because I almost never leave home outside of work or errands.  I spend all of my nights in because I just don't have the energy to fight it any more.  The acquaintances I've made have basically given up on inviting me to do things because I'm simply never able to -- if I stay out too late on a week night (or weekend, for that matter), I'm being inconsiderate, keeping her from sleeping (because she says she can't sleep well if I'm not home), and not thinking about her needs.  Every acquaintance that was becoming a friend since I've moved here has been lost entirely and it's really upsetting.

[Grey Kitty]

Both these are no-win games if you play by her rules. You've pretty well established that.

You've already stated that when you go out anyway, the fear of her disapproval makes you anxious, and you don't enjoy yourself.

Suggestion #1: Go out anyways, let yourself be anxious, and stay out doing whatever you intended anyways.

Perhaps you will be anxious the whole time.

Perhaps you will get over it and enjoy yourself.

With practice, I guarantee you will be less anxious, or anxious for less time in the future.

Possibility #2: Try being spontaneous, or try not warning her in advance, even if you know a few days ahead. Instead some evening when you are home after dinner say "I'm going out to blah-blah-blah. I'll be back around 11:30 tonight". Or instead text her when you leave work: "I'm going to stop and have a drink with [person] on the way home. I'll be late."

(Be prepared to have her blow up your phone while you are away, and be prepared to turn it off or mute it so you can do what you are doing instead of  fighting with her the whole time.)

Suggestion #3: The "11:00 / 11:30 / 12:00 / 12:30 range of anger from her" game is just plain unacceptable. I'd tell her that I'm not playing that game with her anymore next time she brings it up.

And I'd plan to spend the night elsewhere while she cools down that night, instead of being raged at when you return. (We can help you work out a detailed plan on how to implement that)

Are you afraid of her raging at you?

[ArleighBurke]

Your wife sounds just like mine! Her trying to pin you down to set times, stop you from going out, putting you in lose/lose situations.

I have tried both planned activities and spontaneous - I don't think either is better than the other. But i DO know that the stress I felt (like you) is because I was trying to still do what she wants (she wants me home by 11:30 - so do I have enough time to eat dinner? What if my friends ask me to stay for another drink - how do i say no? Is it a 20min drive home - what if I get delayed - she'll be annoyed... .ARGH!).

The biggest thing that helped me (it's ongoing... .) is to STOP accepting her "frame". My wife tells me I am selfish for going out with friends. She tells me I don't spend enough time with her. I am now at the point where I can look at my life and disagree with her. I "know" I am doing what is right for me. She will never accept that - there is no point explaining it to her. So be a bit more selfish - say "this is important to me" and "i will text you when I leave" - without agreeing to a time. She will complain - let her. Just restate your position "this is important to me" and "i will text you when I leave".

Accept that she will be annoyed no matter what you do. You need to have the self-confidence and self-assurance to just ignore her. If you can, empathy can help: "it must feel worrying me be out... ." - except I havn't worked out how to validate with my wife, because I think she is actually jealous that I can go out and enjoy myself but she can't because of 100 reasons... .  And even better is to be able to have things organised for you both -so to be able to say "I look forward to our date tomorrow night - that'll be fun".

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, what AB said. Especially this part of it:

You aren't going to convince her that your time away from her is "right". Stop trying. Stop creating fights you don't need over it.

Just convince her that you will do it.

She doesn't have to like it, but she can't and won't stop you.

[waverider]

Unfortunately she is using your trait of being organized and flipping it back at you with random goal posts. If something is not as planned it makes her insecure and suspect.

Maybe you need to have less definitions yourself, so that she has to get used to you not being on a timeclock AND NOTHING BAD EVER HAPPENS, apart from her perceptions. In other words stop debating the plans and let the consequences speak for themselves. You go out, and you come home, the world hasn't stopped.

Many pwBPD dont differentiate between justifying yourself and making excuses. They are both invalidating her needs which are based on insecurity and abandonment.

Debating it just keeps you both stuck in the process of arguing about nominal goalposts, rather than the end result

You will have to overcome extinction burst, but you need to persevere in order to set new precedents. I had to weather self harm and trashing things, but now i can go out when I want as long as there is not a genuine physical reason, as history as proven I come back.

[ampersandalz]

I very much appreciate the honest and detailed responses.  You are all spot-on and sometimes it's difficult to think in terms of her not exactly "seeing things as they are," especially because she's a brilliant and logical person in almost all other areas of life save for anything related to me. 

Voicing it all to friends does make me realize how ridiculous it all is -- the looks they give me when I try to explain why I have to be home early from this, that, or anything else.  I distinctly remember talking to a friend who was asking why I was leaving the event we were at, I said "well, my wife is studying, she has a big exam tomorrow, I told her I'd try to get home early because of that."  And he looked at me, head tilted, and said "wait, so she's busy doing her thing all night, but you still have to go home?  I'm must be missing something."  That was one of the moments where it clicked how backwards I had everything.

I think the reason I get as stressed and frustrated as I do over it is because it's always an accusation of infidelity.  Every time.  I've never cheated, I never would, and the accusations are just so... .cutting to me for some reason.

She stays out til 1, 2, 3 AM without a word of concern from me outside of making sure she's safe and having a good time -- the last time I was out til 3 AM she griped until I absolutely popped and started raging myself, then turned the whole thing around and made me into the mean, scary, bad person. 

The last time we got in an argument about her accusations, though, she did finally "see my point," even if only for a bit.  She said "well, you say you're not doing those things, but how can I just trust what you're saying?"  And I said "well, if you look back in time, I no longer go out to concerts, I don't try to make friends, I don't go play games with people -- I go to work, I go to therapy, or I go home."  She actually agreed, said she could see that and said she felt bad for isolating me, then told me "you should do your own thing, don't worry about me -- either I'll be okay with it or I won't."  That was another small revelation.  I found myself thinking in the car yesterday, listening to an audiobook on boundaries that my therapist recommended, and I felt bad thinking it, but all I could think was "What's the point in holding myself back any more?  If her reason for accusing me of what she does and trying to micromanage me is simply to gain control and I'm getting nothing in return for my efforts to 'play by the rules,' why play at all?"

If anything, I think breaking out and trying harder will maybe regain me some respect, at the very least.  All through some raging extinction burst, of course, but I can't live confined any more.

[Grey Kitty]

This right here represents the way she is making your life miserable and the boundary you need to enforce:

I think the reason I get as stressed and frustrated as I do over it is because it's always an accusation of infidelity.  Every time.  I've never cheated, I never would, and the accusations are just so... .cutting to me for some reason.

the last time I was out til 3 AM she griped until I absolutely popped and started raging myself, then turned the whole thing around and made me into the mean, scary, bad person.

These false accusations are verbal abuse. (Even if she truly believes them!)
Not letting something go, even it it stays at the level of "griping" is verbal abuse.

In understand all too well--in the bad/BPD/abusive days of my marriage, my wife did something similar to me. She was always afraid of conflict and anger and raging (her mother was alcoholic and did rage at the whole family). So she didn't do that to me. Instead, she pushed my buttons until *I* started yelling.

So what can you do about it? That's where the boundary enforcement comes in.

When she starts griping, you can offer a brief explanation (ONCE, only once!) that you were having a drink with a friend, not staying in a hotel with a hooker, or whatever she's accusing you of. Chances are it won't convince her. Don't get trapped into the fight over the "truth" or over how you can prove it is true, etc. You should know by now that it doesn't actually help anything.

Then, more importantly, say something like "I won't stay here and listen to these accusations."

If she keeps going, leave the room, to get away from it.

You might need to spend the night on the couch to get away from her.

If she follows you around the house, be ready to leave the house.

You might need to spend the night on somebody else's couch instead. (Or in a hotel room; you may be out of friends who would be happy for you to knock on the door at 3am and let you sleep on their couch!)

Please understand that if you stay and let her go on and on and on and on about something like this, whether you agree with her, argue with her, or are absolutely silent, you aren't helping either yourself or her when you do it.

Removing yourself protects you from getting so angry you will rage at her and say things you will regret. I've tried really hard not to slam the door as I tried really hard to keep my voice from a shout as I said "If I stay here any longer, I'll say or do something I will regret." on my way out the door before. And that was a success every time I did it!

It also is better for her, even though she doesn't think so. She has difficult feelings to deal with, and using your partner as an emotional punching bag to deal with them isn't healthy for her either. So taking the punching bag (yourself) away and leaving her to figure something else out is actually good for her, no matter how much she doesn't like it at the time.

[ampersandalz]

This right here represents the way she is making your life miserable and the boundary you need to enforce:

These false accusations are verbal abuse. (Even if she truly believes them!)
Not letting something go, even it it stays at the level of "griping" is verbal abuse.

In understand all too well--in the bad/BPD/abusive days of my marriage, my wife did something similar to me. She was always afraid of conflict and anger and raging (her mother was alcoholic and did rage at the whole family). So she didn't do that to me. Instead, she pushed my buttons until *I* started yelling.

So what can you do about it? That's where the boundary enforcement comes in.

I've been trying hard to set boundaries regarding this, but without any real focus on how to enforce them.  The last time she brought it up (over my cellphone being dead while I was at therapy), I told her it was untrue and I simply wouldn't tolerate it any more.  She has knocked it off for the most part since then, still making a snide comment here and there based on my confessed viewing of pornography for a brief period well over a year ago, but I'm trying to "pick my battles" in that respect.  Listening to this book on boundaries, however, has made me realize that the only thing I can do when she brings this topic up and tries to argue about it is make it known that if she continues, I will not participate.  I will leave the conversation, room, house, etc., just like you said.

In recent months, I have started to realize even the small ways she has taken advantage of me as an emotional punching bag.  In things as big as what I've discussed here, to things related to school (she has said I am not encouraging because I don't try to convince her to keep working some nights, but has also chastised me for encouraging her to work because she takes it as me "not wanting to spend time with her", all the way down to little things, like asking me questions about what she should do with a meal she's cooking (I am not a cook, I know very little of cooking), then taking my recommendation, and if it doesn't work out how she wanted she gets mad, says this is why "she should know better than to ever listen to me," even though anything I tell her in this regard comes with the disclaimer of me not really knowing.

I guess when it comes down to it now, my motivation is for a happy and healthy marriage.  Even in our roughest moments over the years, we have never been as bad as we have been this past year or so.  That gives me hope for change, hope for betterment, hope that this is just a sign to take better care of myself to impart new boundaries.  I have always been a servant of sorts, the type of person willing and happy to do whatever she wants whenever she wants it, and I think she has now not only become accustomed to that to the point of taking advantage of me (and treating me as she does), it has dwindled into destroying my confidence and any respect she may have had for me before.  Coming here and talking this stuff through has really made me realize the importance of standing my ground and being my best self for me before anyone else.

[Grey Kitty]

I've been trying hard to set boundaries regarding this, but without any real focus on how to enforce them.  The last time she brought it up (over my cellphone being dead while I was at therapy), I told her it was untrue and I simply wouldn't tolerate it any more.  She has knocked it off for the most part since then, still making a snide comment here and there based on my confessed viewing of pornography for a brief period well over a year ago, but I'm trying to "pick my battles" in that respect.

You seem to be going in the right direction. I find it easier to work in the very concrete and specific, rather than general principles.

If you can give a full dialog of a conversation that went badly, let us help you see where things went south, when, where, and how you you would have done better at enforcing a boundary earlier, and perhaps where something invalidating that you didn't intend to, and blown things up.

[ampersandalz]

Concrete makes sense and I'm working hard to develop that type of confidence.

I can't think of anything specific in terms of a back-and-forth dialogue, but I'll try to see if I can remember something.  Otherwise, gonna keep pushing forward for myself and try to better the situation little by little everyday.  Feeling so constantly at fault is very hard, but if anything it will have to be a confidence building exercise and an effort to stay grounded in reality -- the reality I know to be true regardless of what she may or may not tell me.

[Grey Kitty]

Don't worry if you can't remember one right now.

You'll have another chance soon enough 

So post about it next time it happens instead, while the memory is fresh.