That conversation AGAIN.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

And so today i decided to call my SO who is living somewhere else as we are separated about  what to do about Christmas.  I don't want a phone call with her upset and missing us, and me driving there and making up simply because it's Christmas and we miss each other.   I also don't want us to have feelings of resentment.

The conversation was going well, and it turned. As it always does.  I'm am validating, trying to lay the options on her family, mine, or neither, to make her comfortable. She goes to default and aks me what do I really want and immediately says she can't handle it and has to hand up.

I liken her to Lucy from peanuts and her taking away the football everytime I go to kick it.    This push and pull and refusal to take responsibility is so often that I kill myself trying to stop it.   I feel awful afterwards.

I waited awhile to call back and explain I'm just trying to make her part of the decision that we are both on the fence and that we need to be careful.

But it's always my fault.  My fault I can't decide, my fault, I can't explain, my fault.

I'm losing my ability to reason with issues outside the relationship.   I don't trust my friends for wanting to be with me.  I'm not emotional right now, I'm calm.   I don't want to keep doing this, and I can't stop thinking of ways to keep it going.   How big of a gas tank do I have anyway?

[ynwa]

And so today i decided to call my SO who is living somewhere else as we are separated about  what to do about Christmas.  I don't want a phone call with her upset and missing us, and me driving there and making up simply because it's Christmas and we miss each other.   I also don't want us to have feelings of resentment.

The conversation was going well, and it turned. As it always does.  I'm am validating, trying to lay the options on her family, mine, or neither, to make her comfortable. She goes to default and aks me what do I really want and immediately says she can't handle it and has to hand up.

I liken her to Lucy from peanuts and her taking away the football everytime I go to kick it.    This push and pull and refusal to take responsibility is so often that I kill myself trying to stop it.   I feel awful afterwards.

I waited awhile to call back and explain I'm just trying to make her part of the decision that we are both on the fence and that we need to be careful.

But it's always my fault.  My fault I can't decide, my fault, I can't explain, my fault.

I'm losing my ability to reason with issues outside the relationship.   I don't trust my friends for wanting to be with me.  I'm not emotional right now, I'm calm.   I don't want to keep doing this, and I can't stop thinking of ways to keep it going.   How big of a gas tank do I have anyway?

[jonmnemonic]

How big of a gas tank do I have anyway?

It's amazing how long you can run on an empty tank, being fully aware of the circumstances, and still continue on.

[ynwa]

It's amazing how long you can run on an empty tank, being fully aware of the circumstances, and still continue on.

My tank refills after I think it through and understand that she is struggling with something I can't see. Or maybe something in me that is reinforcing it? I want to put space behind it, I am struggling to forget how it feels to be shut down while I'm clearly present.

I'm struggling to not let this turn to anger, because she doesn't deserve it. Going through the holidays not "alone" but without her is going to hurt me. And I'm struggling as I have to own that for myself.   She has hit me, she has caused blood, she has blamed me for so many things.

I am all over the place.  I understand I am not in the worst place, and will get through it.  I don't want to blame her, and myself for falling short.   She is cutting me out to save herself in a way, she probably knows it is hurting me.   It sucks because I and all of us cannot take the BPD away... .

The elephant in the room

[Hisaccount]

I was so close to leaving so many times. For me I should have.
But the thing that kept me with her even before I knew about BPD is that I knew something was wrong with her.

So in my mind leaving her was like leaving a retarded child. I couldn't do that.

I kept giving until my tank was dry and she decided to take that too.

Nobody would want what is left of me

[babyducks]

I liken her to Lucy from peanuts and her taking away the football everytime I go to kick it.    This push and pull and refusal to take responsibility is so often that I kill myself trying to stop it.   I feel awful afterwards.

But it's always my fault.  My fault I can't decide, my fault, I can't explain, my fault.

Hi ynwa,

You are in a circular argument or a circular conversation.   For me, they are one of the hallmarks of a BPD relationship.   

Workshop 2.09 here talks about them:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

So what is a circular conversation or a circular argument?

This is what I learned about circular conversations from another site:

Circular Conversations are arguments which go on almost endlessly, repeating the same patterns, with no real resolution.  Usually both parties take opposing positions over an issue, dig in and reiterate the merits of their position until one (or both) of them becomes exhausted and stops communicating. Circular conversations can last hours, days, weeks, months, years, even a lifetime.
Often, the argument begins over something superficial. For example, it may be about who should say “I’m sorry”. The reason these become circular arguments is that the issue expressed often represents an underlying feeling, such as “I feel disrespected”, “I feel hurt” or “I feel afraid”. When we argue, we are often trying to communicate feelings but, because of the tension in the air and, because the other person is not validating our position, we often feel too vulnerable to express our feelings. Instead, we tend to represent our feelings in the form of a position, an issue or an event such as “You lied to me”, or “You’re being insensitive”.

You are right ynwa,  this is like Lucy and the football.   They are very baffling and very hard to deal with.  It's not a natural skill you are born with.    They throw a lot of confusion into the air and tire you out very fast.

Here are a couple of things that I did that helped me.

Started to recognize the pattern of a conversation that was going round and round and developed stock, automatic phrases that I could use to gently extract me from the conversation.   "I am going to make a cup of tea now, why don't we finish up this conversation later."   "I want to think about this some more, why don't we see what happens in the mean time."   Phrases that would take some of the tension out of the room.   Both mine and hers.

Present options as either/or solutions.    If I said, want to go out for dinner, where would you like to go?   I usually got a poor response.   If I said,  I am thinking about going out to dinner, would you like to go to Place A or Place B?   I got a 70% better response.   Part of this disorder is a cognitive impairment, or poor executing function.   Making decisions truly is hard for people with the traits of BPD.   

Don't repeat myself any more than necessary for clarity.   Repeating something I already said once was counterproductive.   I could express the same thought/emotions but using different words could sometimes help explain.   "I have a craving for Italian tonight, would you like to get dinner at place ABC?".    Often I was surprised at how that would unblock a stuck conversation.

Switch from stating facts to stating feelings.   When I think about Christmas, what feels right to me is that I do XYZ and you do ABC, would that work for you?   Letting go of the results is good.   When we get overinvested in the outcome, (trying to avoid it being our fault) that raises the level of tension in the conversation.   Don’t try to change the other person’s mind. Their thoughts and beliefs and feelings are their own property.   Don’t try to manipulate the other person’s feelings. Don’t try to make them feel guilt, remorse, sympathy etc.   Don’t spend time describing the other person’s behavior, feelings or actions. Focus on describing your own needs and feelings.     When X happens, I feel Y, so I am going to do Z.

Ending the conversation calmly and with my dignity intact is important too.   I choose to get involved in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I saw the  but something in me stayed in the relationship anyhow.   Which tells me that is something going on with me that I need to look at.   The responsibility for this is not all on my partner.

One other thing,   validation works best before the conversation starts to devolve.   Once my partner had dsyregulated validation fell on deaf ears, she was too busy dealing with her own internal storm.

Hope this helps.

'ducks

[ynwa]

Hello ducks,

Thank you for your insight. This process for me is a serious of wake up moments. Your comments are very helpful because I think I was trying many of the methods to communicate with my UBPD SO without any understanding.  My football moments were a series of me putting different footballs into play and thinking THAT one ball would get through the uprights.

I was going to win!   Get through to her.  Find the common ground, share blame, and move forward.  I see now that it was her and not me.  Not always.

I don't walk alway easily, but I was learning it. More importantly I don't fully know how to express to her, or myself that walking back, detaching, is the best option.

She fears abandonment, I fear the message walking back sends.  I am very very afraid of the permanence that may represent. But I am starting to understand, that my need to be with an adult at times to give me stability to work through the rest of our issues is going to have to take precedence over my love and fear.

Perhaps I am in a circular argument with myself and it's time to let go.

[formflier]

 Get through to her.  

This was a big part of it for me.  I was interested that she think or believe a certain way... .about various subjects.

Once I understood that boundaries go both ways... .this got much better.  Once I was ok with letting my wife think as she pleases... and I had a boundary for me that I got to have my own thoughts... .circular arguments got much better.

Length of time of a conversation really matters. 

For instance, I just had a conversation that was between 1-2 minutes long.  My goal was that boxes no longer be tossed in the garage.  My wife wanted to go all over the place about where else they should be put... .that boxes "always" are left "all over the house"... ."not a room without them"... .etc etc.

Once I secured agreement about boxes other places... .no more in garage... .I exited.

Had I tried to "solve" other issues... .it would not have worked... .99% positive.

FF

[babyducks]

Hi ynwa

I was going to win!   Get through to her. 

Most of us were/are the same way.   I think that is everyone's first reaction to a circular conversation.   It's pretty natural.

More importantly I don't fully know how to express to her, or myself that walking back, detaching, is the best option.

It takes some trial and error.    It has to be something that you can naturally, comfortably do while expressing your authentic self.   Going to get a cup of tea worked for me because I am naturally a tea drinker, it does calm me, and you almost never find me witouth a cup of tea near by.

She fears abandonment, I fear the message walking back sends. 

walking back in which sense ynwa?

I am very very afraid of the permanence that may represent. But I am starting to understand, that my need to be with an adult at times to give me stability to work through the rest of our issues is going to have to take precedence over my love and fear.

certainly the realization that the relationship I was actually having was nothing like the relationship I thought I was having, was quite the blow to me.   It was a shock.   I think there was a normal process of grief involved with that.   Was she the mature and stable partner I thought I had found.   Nope.    Was the relationship entirely bad.   Nope.   With her heightened sensitivity to life she brought me insights I wouldn't have come upon by myself.   In ways she rejuvenated me.

When is the last time you spoke with her?

'ducks

[ynwa]

she texted me today asking about Christmas, which I kept factual and simple.  I ate too much food, watched doctor who and went home. She texted back the same.  I texted that i would be around and she could call later.  Because I have been trying to do what I have learnt here.  I need to have little or no contact with her when I am emotional or sense the usual responses. 

Tonight, I went to a mutual friends and was speaking to them.  They basically and thankfully overstepped and told me that my (as of tonight EX - first time I've said that!) had no intention of keeping our relationship and was intending to see the new guy further, and that I should consider our relationship over.  They told me because they are furious with her that the guy, me that had been painting to them as black as can be, is not the guy they know.  They told me because they me and see what she is saying as not making sense. That she is continuing the same patterns as she has before. 

I've tried to make this as concise as possible, and deleted a lot of the "drama" bits.  But I've spent the last month trying to both make sense of how I am feeling and how to make our relationship work or at least get her to tell me it's over, or are we going to separate.  I'm sure my ex is painting it both ways, I'm sure she actually doesn't really know. 

But I'm sure I know.  It is over, and I'm going to do my best to detach. Do my best not to be angry and hurtful.  But also put into balance that she is an ADULT.
This is the first time I can say in three years, i don't want or have anything useful to say to her. ( and literally she just texted me).  I'll write more later.

[ynwa]

So a 5 hour phone conversation later I am truly amazed.  Because up until 3 or so weeks ago, I had only a distant knowledge of BPD.  And while my ex (second time) is undiagnosed, she clearly has strong traits.  She called me because she got into an argument with her brother about our breakup, because he was upset with her because she cheated on me.  She then painted him black and jumped to me after 10'minutes because I wasn't  supportive of her.  Wait. You cheated on me? And I have to defend you against your brother for pointing out the obvious?

This went on and on, with non stop tirades and comments.  But I didn't engage, and only validated what made sense.  I have never heard her so clearly disassociate before. She almost had me pulled in when she mentioned my goddaughter. 

[babyducks]

She called me because she got into an argument with her brother about our breakup, because he was upset with her because she cheated on me.  She then painted him black and jumped to me after 10'minutes because I wasn't  supportive of her.  Wait. You cheated on me? And I have to defend you against your brother for pointing out the obvious?

I am sorry ynwa, that things continue along this same way.   The emotional chaos of a person with this disorder is truly hard to fathom.

somebody a lot smarter than me said this:

pwBPD see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions and they believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change

that rang all sorts of bells for me.    it was a  moment.   

it sounds like your exgf was trying to control external events (you) to make herself feel better from the fight with her brother.   she was changing how she felt by changing other people.

I saw a clinical psychologist for a while to help me deal with the fall out from my relationship.   One of her stock phrases when I told her some of the outrageous behavior was; "Who Does This?, Who Does Things Like This?"   it wasn't entirely rhetorical.   she was trying to get me to work on the acceptance part of how mentally ill my partner was/is.    It can be hard to see the illness, especially at first.

I think you did a nice job of not engaging in what could have turned into conflict.   way to go.

what are your plans if you hear from her again?

'ducks

[formflier]

Radical acceptance

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0


First... .good on you for being able to work through such a long conversation without getting sucked in.  Especially given the subject matter.

If you choose to stay involved with your pwBPD, my hope for you is that you are deliberate about "pausing" conversations like that to "get tea", "take a walk, "get a beer"... .

Long conversations about emotionally sensitive issues, are like dynamite.  Mess around with them enough... .KABOOM.

My psychologist is a grandmotherly type.  She seems to deliver such life truth in a way that is comfortable... .but you also get the gravity and truth of the situation.

She will often turn the issue into a question.

"Knowing (FF wife) as well as you do... .did you expect a different outcome?"


FF

[ynwa]

I wasn't able to write everything down before without jumbling it. Last night, the way she was talking about her brother was at times a pure projection of how she was feeling about herself. That he was a horrible person, who can't help himself and uses people without giving back. And I don't think she even realized it.  I finally know enough to just let her rant, again validating her feelings but agreeing when I wasn't in agreement.  Her brother is diagnosed with a few mood disorders, and he is low functional.  They have had physical altercations and have little or no relationship with each other.

 But the more striking thing was how she was going off on my relationship with my goddaughter and her younger sister.  Their dad is in the Army and I am a second father to them.  She was making comments to me about how they don't say thank you, and don't send thank you notes and appreciate how much i do for them. Attacking their parents for making bad children who don't know to say thank you or respect me for all I do for them.

 Im as calm as can be, and there was just another phone call. The second time This time she was less emotional and was able to talk.  But she has a different voice, the feel of it, the accenting.  She has burned off the energy and is clear.
I'm tired.  I need to give the details and I can't.  She 5 hours ago told me that we are over, and now she is opening up about how hard it is to get through the day.

I was able to ask, every day?  I was able to ask and not just because of our relationship.  She said yes.  At the end of the conversation, I told her I'm sorry if it feels that I am not there for her, that she might need to talk to someone professional and neutral.  She told me she hated therapy before because it didn't work, and they made her feel like an idiot and a crazyperson for repeating things back.

But this is not a new conversation, different words same result.   For her.
For me, I am able to disengage and see that I might not be deal with this in the long term.  

My plan is to not contact her.  And when she calls, shorten the conversations.  We share an apartment and she is living somewhere else. At minimum I need to maintain communication to deal with the lease and other issues.

I'm not ready to fully detach, but I think it's going to happen. I was made to feel this is MY fault, that I wasn't there.  And I'm comfortable to see that we were both there, but the BPD isn't my issue to constantly have to work with, if she is also not going to work on it.    That is the feeling I am getting.

[ynwa]

I called this afternoon after watching Liverpool beat stoke. I was calm.  I told her that my plan was to heal, that I am not ready for her to leave my life. But I told her that she has hurt me, that she has responsibility for that. That our relationship may fail because when I am hurt, I cannot help her. I acknowledged that is not only her fault but mine. I told her that I see that at times she is not really yelling or attacking me, but her own emotions. But she is an adult.  If she cannot handle being spoken to loudly, then she should speak that way.

I sensed she was overloading and i paused.  I left the conversation letting her know that it is ok to talk, it is ok to be upset and to talk about it.

I will send her an email later reinforcing this.   But I can't kept having days like this.  It has been one sided for so long that her outbursts and anger really did seem to be my fault.  I will tell her that her anger is not my fault. That I am not willing to bear it any longer. 

And like the guy from Love Actually... .  enough, enough now.


But I will stay on this board.  Thank you for reading and thank you for your input.

[formflier]

Can you post your email here first?  We may be able to guide you a bit.  Giving them things to read over and over again can be problematic.  Be very careful here.

FF

[ynwa]

here is the email.   

Thank you for listening to me today.  I have been trying to say that for a long time.  Not being able to tell you I was hurt without you becoming defensive was important.  Mutch of our relationship was bout you and your feelings, which is important. But mine took a backseat.  I wasn't able to talk to anyone about you hitting me.  I wasn't able to talk it out with you.  I wasn't able to work out how I was feeling about a lot of things, and they shut me down.  I had to be there for you but I wasn't able to be there for me.

Please stop painting me black to other people. Stop being so hard on yourself. You made mistakes. It's ok, especially considering your emotions are probably very confusing. 

Perhaps writing to each other will make it easier. 

I don't want you to leave my life. I love you. I care about you, and cannot change that.  I am here.  But I'm going to ask that you stop attacking me when you are angry, both to me and others. That if you do not like being yelled at, stop yelling at me.  I say this knowing that you feel overwhelmed and do feel responsible afterwards.  I know that you simply can't express it and it comes out mixed with other emotions.  You are not a bad person or damaged for having overwhelming thoughts and feelings. You are getting through it everyday and I see you doing it.  I admire you for it, I love it about you.   But you need to ask for help, advice. And when someone

If you feel like you need to call, please call.  It is fine.  But I will keep it short.  Or just write back in this email.   Deal with one thing at a time. When you feel it's too much,  will hang up and you can calm down.

Gary

[formflier]

 
k... .

Have you sent it?  I'll play around with it some either way.


General comment.  If you could cut it in half... .focus it... .it would be much better. 

Picking a message to focus... .vice "making points" about issues... .would be better.

Don't let her know you are going to "ask her to not attack you".  Much better... ."If a conversation gets heated, I will excuse myself"  (no blame... .just action).

More later.

FF

[ynwa]

Yes I sent it.  It was more for me then her.  She will not get it, or refute it anyway.

I'm interested in how you think I should have written it however. Thank you for taking the time, and helping me. 

[babyducks]

And I don't think she even realized it.  
 

No I don't think she even realized it.  we spend a lot of time around here talking about how much behavior is a deliberate conscious choice and how much is unconscious insensate manifestations of the illness.

my experience was about 20/80.   my partner would occasionally made a deliberate choice but more often the illness and it's symptoms were her default operating mode.   she would do things and not understand why they didn't work out for her.   It had nothing to do with intelligence, she was pretty bright, it was more the lack of emotional maturity and maladaptive coping traits.   The "I must protect my feelings at all costs" type thinking.

But she is an adult. 

Is she?   Physically to be sure.   Emotionally not so much.

I'm sorry to read that your gf hit you.   I can understand being angry and resentful about what you experienced in your r/s.   I would be.   I can understand wanting, desperately needing to be heard, having my pain acknowledged and recognized.       That's very normal.

Here is what I learned during the course of my r/s.   My pwBPD was poorly equipped to accept responsibility.   For her trying to survive the catastrophe of not feeling whole meant everything that happened around her was the result of someone or something else.

Individuals who match this personality disorder type have an extremely fragile self-concept that is easily disrupted and fragmented under stress and results in the experience of a lack of identity or chronic feelings of emptiness. As a result, they have an impoverished and/or unstable self structure and difficulty maintaining enduring intimate relationships. Self-appraisal is often associated with self-loathing, rage, and despondency. Individuals with this disorder experience rapidly changing, intense, unpredictable, and reactive emotions and can become extremely anxious or depressed. They may also become angry or hostile, and feel misunderstood, mistreated, or victimized. They may engage in verbal or physical acts of aggression when angry. Emotional reactions are typically in response to negative interpersonal events involving loss or disappointment

That's from the front page here.   I think it kind of shows how frantic the efforts to not feel empty can get.

One of the other great things I learned here, very early on is something called the Yale Communication Model.  It works great in any conversation that is fraught, tough talks with the boss, hard conversations with the girlfriend.   It goes like this:

When _________ happens,
I feel _____________,
So I will need to ________.

When voices start to go up, and the tension starts to develop, I feel attacked and anxious, so from now I will end the conversation, leave the room, end the call and wait for a better time.

First it makes it about you.   What you feel and what your boundaries are.    It's harder to debate something that is stated by you about you.    It describes the event, the when XYZ happens, as an event, not as a personal issue.   It takes control of the outcome back, and into your hands.   Telling a pwBPD to calm down is not usually recommended.  They can't calm down.   They aren't wired that way.    Telling the highly intense emotions of BPD to calm down is shaming to them.   

I think ynwa it takes a while to get used to idea of mental illness if we haven't run into it before.   It's not a defect of character that a self aware person can identify and move to adjust.   We wouldn't tell a cancer patient, you need to stop making cancer cells.   It's much the same with mental illness.   There are deeply embedded reasons for the thinking and behavior that we see.

I fell in love with a mentally ill person too.   This is hard stuff.    Adjusting my own understanding of who I fell in love with was a grieving process.   Accepting that was, and still is in many ways an effort.

my two cents
'ducks

[ynwa]

I've sat with this for a bit.  Im very aware of how much I miss her, that I could be totally fine with having her back.  But right there i have forgotten that she has not come to me to say she is sorry, to ask for forgiveness. That to get us back together, I would have to walk to her and make it happen. That we don't have vertical blinds because she couldn't decide, and I didn't want to force her decisions. We didn't get a kitchen table because it would have been me that decided, and she would have secretly hated it.  I am ok with it, because our apartment is small, and honestly because I was settling for that and a lot of things.

Part of a relationship is support, and a lot of support is reinforcement repeated over time. I have dealt with the things she is not capable of for a longtime, I have reinforced her shortcomings and insecurities. I felt I lacked the ability to get it from her, as though my asking was wrong. At times, she was, and at times I can see now, she used my insecurities to deflect from her.  She did it the other night.
It was like socks in the drier, a few pairs went in, one came out missing. No biggie. I have lots of socks. Trouble is, one day I went to put some on and found I had lots of mismatched pairs.

I can express this, I can say it to her and anyone.  I'm crying right now, and so much want to be where she is, because I know that would be enough, and I could breathe again.  But that is so temporary.  It's not healthy to bounce back and forth between that and this feeling of loss and emptiness.

I'm getting through these moments, and I know they will pass. I'm keeping my distance because I have to.  For myself and my self respect, and just because I know that my going to her is a short term fix.   I'm also aware that she needs to get through her day because she is struggling. She needs to function without me making it worse.

In short I am seeing that the heavier things are outweighed by the nicer things, the love things.  So I'm getting space and distance, but that hurt makes me forget the the bigger picture. 

I promised I would never leave.  That I could take anything she threw at me, which turns out was both literal and figurative.  In that she is left with herself.  And we all know that BPD wins.

I want to send her another email, I want to go to her.  But I cannot when I'm like this. But I also am stuck from moving forward.  I never left my serious relationships, because I am a bit codependent.  But also because I've never been able to accept people or situations as totally good or bad

[ynwa]

Today was rough.   I nearly lost it in the employment office in the quagmire of trying to setup unemployment.  I was stressed and that place makes nothing easy.  But leaving the parking lot, I lost it and cried for 15 minutes straight.

I had been trying to focus on the negatives of my relationship, trying to pinpoint the exact details of why there is no way I can handle our relationship basically alone. The moments that should push me to see that I am unable to try further unless she first accepts her disorder and makes steps to address it.

Going back to her call to me about her brother.  What set her off.  

She had texted that could she call, and I had replied "I guess".  I'm tired, almost sleepy and would have been a reply anyone would have taken as YEA SURE, CALL RIGHT NOW".  She replied , Never Mind.  I realized my mistake and said it was fine.   When I answered she was clearly agitated and I'm not going rehash the whole conversation, but one moment shines.   She mentioned that her brother had insulted her deeply with this, "don't talk about my issues, when you can't even keep your relationship together".  And yes the irony of her calling me for support when she cheated on me, and he was basically calling her out on it, is not lost on me.   But the comment I made back, because I'm new with validation,and I am going through it, and im blown away is "I can agree with him there, but look at where... .(she immediately went ballistic, blasting me and then hung up.  Now the whole part of what I was saying was " I can agree with him there, but look at where it's coming from" her brother is a bipolar depressive who got kicked off his cruise ship job. The cruise ship job is the resort the family used to get him out of their lives.   And I know my response was not appropriate, but bygones.

What is important is my response to her words and rage and hanging up.  I saw stars, panic, immediately calling her back, unable to control myself from getting her back on the phone to finish.  Which I did.  

But that moment scares the **** out of me.  I've had a gun pulled on me in Washington square park and calmly told the man, that I had no money and he walked away. I've seen my friend dead of a heroin overdose. I found my grandfather dead when I was younger.  Her comment hit me to the bone, and shook me just like those moments.  And I blew right past it and continued on a phone conversation with her like nothing had happened.  

Yes, unhealthy.  Just like the last time she got really physical punched me, and scratched me from my ear to shoulder so that I was dropping blood. And her saying that I "pushed her buttons".

Driving home from her cousins memorial with broken glasses after she punched me twice for pulling her back into the truck window after she screamed at someone for cutting us off in traffic when all they were doing was getting out of the way of a car making a u-turn.   When we got home she doesn't remember me super gluing my glasses together.  I can't see and drive without them.

I realize these things with the distance from her.  I have taken into account that I'm 6 4 and 200 pounds and have gotten in her face yelling, and that is not acceptable. But it took 3 years to get there. I am not in denial of how I feel, nor am I in crisis because of her abuse.  I know this because even then I was aware that she was hitting something else, her eyes where not seeing me.

Had I perhaps learned about BPD sooner, the cycling would have been easier to understand. The rages easier to escape.  But I would have still thought it was my fault. That I could something to fix it.  

I cannot.  I won't recycle or continue the relationship with her in any level until she agrees to see someone and make steps to address her disorder.  I cannot go fully NC, because of a shared apartment and her name is the lease.  I intend to stay here.  It's the life I need to live and want to live. I have to.  I also left out that I have been struggling with a complete tear of my rotator cuff for over a year. I have constant pain but has lessened since I stopped work.  Which is also why this is so hard. She knew I would be done work in December, with hopefully surgery in January. She knew that means at least 5-6 months out of work and rehab, with less money coming in.  She knew that I would have to rely on her and she would not be able to disappear into her cycles.

I'm don't think she planned on getting caught cheating, and probably didn't give the consequences any thought. But there it is.  There is more.  But not today.

If you have gotten this far, thank you.   I am here to learn.  I'm here to heal. And I will also try to help... .

[babyducks]

  But right there i have forgotten that she has not come to me to say she is sorry, to ask for forgiveness. .

Hi ynwa,

No she probably won't, people who operate at this level, tend to either just show up again after a cooling off period, or contrive a way to restart contact.

I felt I lacked the ability to get it from her, as though my asking was wrong.

that's a really interesting insight, what do you think that means?   You have the right to have whatever kitchen table you want.

 

I promised I would never leave.  That I could take anything she threw at me, which turns out was both literal and figurative.  In that she is left with herself.  And we all know that BPD wins.

I honestly believe we all promised we would never leave.    And we meant it with every fiber of our being.  There is a tremendous amount of hurt on these boards.   And that often overshadows the phenomenal amount of love.   I think we are all heroes.   We gave our all.   We loved with out condition.   and if BPD orchestrates a scenario where the relationship fails, we walk through that too.  we are courageous people.   

[babyducks]

Today was rough.   I nearly lost it in the employment office in the quagmire of trying to setup unemployment.

you have been badly hurt.   

She had texted that could she call, and I had replied "I guess".  I'm tired, almost sleepy and would have been a reply anyone would have taken as YEA SURE, CALL RIGHT NOW".  She replied , Never Mind.  I realized my mistake and said it was fine.

What you said was normal.   pwBPD have a very high sensitivity to rejection.   she perceived "I guess" as rejecting.   

What is important is my response to her words and rage and hanging up.  I saw stars, panic, immediately calling her back, unable to control myself from getting her back on the phone to finish.  Which I did.  

a lot of what you describe in your r/s was traumatic for you.    you can be the toughest guy in the world and your body will still have the same reactions to trauma.   the body does indeed keep score.   there are a lot of biochemical factors involved in our reactions.   the chemistry of intermittent reinforcement.  the chemistry of trauma bonds. take a look at a guy named Patrick Carnes and his ideas on trauma bonding.

you have been involved in the emotional equivalent of a car wreck.   recovering after the wreck will take some time.   emotions will rise to the surface at odd moments.   you might experience physical symptoms, after one of my partners episodes I was so devastated I lost 15 pounds and couldn't sleep for almost a month.

take special care of yourself.   make an effort to eat healthy, sleep decent amounts, and exercise a little if you can.   that will help.   find a way to self soothe.   binge watch TV for a little while, give your mind a break from thinking about this.   treat yourself to some extra's.   an extra 5 minutes of goofing off.  an extra walk around the block.   an extra soccer jersey.  the one you always wanted.   invest in yourself.

But I would have still thought it was my fault. That I could something to fix it.   I cannot.

It's not your fault.   

And you can't fix it.

Since you will need to be in contact to discuss the lease and apartment issues,  take a look at the legal board here.   There are strategies on how to negotiate with a high conflict person.   BIFF,  be Brief, be Informative (just the facts)  be Firm, be Friendly (moderately)

if you take a look at the trauma bonding stuff, will you let me know what you think?

'ducks

[formflier]

Can you tell us about your normal daily routine... .and things that you do to care for yourself.

Such as... .20 minutes quiet time with a cup of hot tea and a fiction book. 

A brisk walk while the sun is coming up... .

etc etc.

What has that looked like for the past couple months?


Second subject:  What would have happened if she texts if she can call and you said "Not at the moment.  I'll have free time tonight at 6pm."

FF

[ynwa]

To your question flier  Since I stopped working an average of 50 hours a week, I've had a bit of a vacuum.  I'd planned on resting and dealing with my shoulder and giving the relationship some honest time.  I was in the process of reconnecting with friends and looking at volunteering somewhere and finding a new hobby.  I'm also planning on learning to cook. After surgery 5-6 months off with rehab. I'm looking forward to that and the challenges ahead.

What I've been going through, and the last few days of this post has shown me, is that I was operating at a high stress level I had come to see as normal. She had been cycling (which I didn't know the term for) more and more frequently and more and more intensely. I've had bouts of depression and I know that the best thing is to be supportive of yourself and let it work itself out. But that is what I was trying for her. (Again didn't know about BPD) I had to do more and more while also keeping my head down. (See every BPD behavior possible for how my life was) And I see now I wasn't processing, because I was "getting through it" to my layoff and then get my footing. I was also doing this with one arm (literally and figuratively behind my back) In pain, not talking to anyone about it besides the surface stuff and nothing got easier.

Catching her in a lie and realizing she was seeing someone was a showstopper. But I didn't even process that correctly. I was in shock for a week.  That was nov 29.  Once the shock wore off, a dim lightbulb went off.  My last day of work was dec 9. And I don't think I'd told anyone really.  I was still closed up.

I stopped taking the pain pills (ultram small dosage - but don't suggest anyone do it cold turkey . And stopped the caffeine, 5 hour energies etc.   and as the fog has lifted, the emotions came.  But also understanding.  I know she didn't cheat on ME. That isn't about me, but it is a betrayal.

At some point my brain was shouting, this doesn't add up.  I began reading and here we are... .

Moving to now.  I am seeing friends, talking with them, spending time with my parents and reading...   both about BPD, and right now rereading then Girl with the dragon Tattoo series (I know it's about a BPD girl, but I don't see similarities deep enough to be triggered). I binged the whole big love series the first couple weeks, and right now it's newsroom. I make a small plan for the day.  Walking to the store, doing some chores. When walking I listen to podcasts,   Today, I had to go back to the employment office, and in a bit I'm going to get my bike tire fixed.  I'm going out with friends to quizzo later.  I've made plans with a friend to just relax at my parents on New Years.  She is an ex from 10 years ago, we became friends and of course I'd let it go because my BPDSO made it difficult to be friends. My friend is breaking away from a relationship also, and we have (as Platonic friends) helped each other through it in the past.  But it stops the worry about my BPD SO asking me what I'm doing.  she might, and I'm telling her I'm going to my parents.  Leaving my friend out of it, is probably for the best. Correct?  I am attempting to meditate, more on the mindfulness tract, but my attention span is obviously not very good at this point.

As for your second question flier.  When she calls or texts my plan stands.  Keep it simple, and brief.  I will validate and not make it about me. 

she did text last night asking about the cats, she misses them.  I told her I'd given them catnip and they were busy catting. She offered money for the litter and food, and appreciated me taking good care of them. and i replied, "it's ok, I know you miss them. You can come see them if you want". She also said she hadn't had a chance to reply to my email.   I'm taking everthing at face value, understanding that her moods and reasoning can change.  My plan is the same, keeping calm and sticking with this. Every situation with her is to her the only moment.  I will remain there with her and not let it overwhelm her and keep it brief. And on topic. If she rejects me or hangs up, I've already been rejected.  I will give it space and if reasonable re-engage her in the conversation. I will also disengage and remove myself if I feel triggered.  I have not abandoned her, I have merely ended a conversation.

I will not allow this relationship to continue until she seeks help to address her disorder.  I realize I am emotional and the space is making me see how much calmer and centered I was from yesterday, and even at the beginning of this post. I am in the moment, and aware that what has happened will take time to move through.

But she does too. She may in her way have trust in me. And she does. I can listen, but maintain the boundaries.  I'm not responsible to her feelings past the conversations for right now, if ever.

The most important thing I did was contact two of her friends, who are firmly painted black and ghosted. Both have known her the longest, and talking with them was my first deep breath in a really long time.  They know deeply how she is.  A great loving person, warm and funny, loyal and strong.  But... .  and once they tell you hear the rest, it's why we are here. The ones they are closest too, get the most of them, BPD included.

Thank you flier and ducks.  Flier, i read your post about the trip.  You are going through it, as ducks is.  And you still made time for me.  Thank you.

My posts are long, because I'm opening up.  At first very manic, but calmer and calmer. I take pauses. But I have to work on being more concise. 

[formflier]

Great post... .lots of insight.  Lots of you looking at yourself and relationship realities.   

Couple things... .all just my opinion, but something for you to think about.

Your business is your business... .as are your relationships.  Keep that stuff private.  So... I would be shy about telling others about your pwBPD and I would be shy about telling your pwBPD about other relationships.  Especially if you do start to reconcile. 

You have the right to privacy.  Period.


She is an adult with a disorder.  That disorder does not resolve her from responsibility and accountability.   

She did cheat on you  That is hard to process but it is the case.  Along with all the other twisted thinking that comes with that... .where she calls you for support when she is dealing with fallout from her cheating.

Good luck on your recovery.  I'm 100% disabled veteran.  A number of chronic issues that I'm learning to manage, with some success I might add. 

Be very deliberate about being nice to yourself.  No apologies to anyone.  You come first.

FF

[ynwa]

Also Ducks, i did some reading on the trauma bond, and it makes sense.  I am aware it might be in play, but I think the issue is less intense as the detachment increases.

Formflier.  I know you guys don't ask for it.  But thank you for your service.

I have mentioned the BPD to my close friend, because she needed to understand why my stories made no sense to her.   The other friends know her and all have war stories, but I have not really touched on the BPD. My BPD may have been diagnosed in past but she has never said it to me, so she is UBD. And especially now, it's her deal to get help or not. I have not to this point even gotten close to telling my BPD, that it might be BPD.

 to anyone else, she is just her.  I have mostly been focused on me and left her out of the conversations as much as possible.

I did forget to mention that my circle of friends has gotten smaller due to my sobriety, my best friend for 20 years plus is an end stage alcoholic and I intervened and detached from him and a group of friends years ago.  I'm sober by choice not by addiction, but I've had my moments where I wasn't sure.  But we share those friends and I'm being respectful.  I don't have anything negative to say, even on this board anyway.  It's not her fault exactly,and she does not deserve more marginalization and hurt from someone who loves her yet again.

[ynwa]

Hello again,

I keep having lightbulb moments. I keep having dark moments. I have moments of pure helplessness and then tangible moments of Enough Now. I keep getting stuck right on the verge of crying.  They are slower.  So much slower than the beginning of the thread, so much slower than before I came here. As I move through this, there is no sure way of knowing how she feels. It's likely she doesn't understand herself.

But in me, the strangeness of wondering if I myself am BPD. The way i was able to ignore the things being said, the anger, the hitting, that perhaps i was ignoring her cries for help.  

Where I am raw is in the places I need to make myself better.  :)etaching and non contact is helping.  Anything I would say reinforces a behavior that needs to change.  BPD or not, she should by now KNOW, that I would do anything and have done.  

But I'm tired, yet can't sleep.  I need to move but have no energy.  This is the time when a supportive partner helps the other. I have so many questions, so many ideas, as of which need to be for myself now.

I need to detach, if even for a month. And accept that I might now be able to go back.  Right now in this moment that makes sense.  But the process isn't going to just happen, and my mind and heart are impatient. Craving the quick fix.  

So perhaps I should close this thread and move to detachment.  No use will come of waiting for her, there isn't much to decide.

[ynwa]

I need to detach, if even for a month. And accept that I might now be able to go back.  Right now in this moment that makes sense.

That should be NOT ABLE to go back.