A trip...or no trip

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Been a while since I've posted about things in my r/s.  There has been a long period of relative stability.

It will be interesting to see if that continues today.

Apparently my wife wants to take all our kids and travel to see her sister... ."because our kids want to".  I was approached by D6... .pulling a loaded suitcase telling me that she was ready to go... ."if only I would let her... .so that she could give her presents to cousin (fill in cousins name)... ."  Was almost in tears

We have tried to have a couple verbal conversations about it... .things quickly fell apart with her accusing me of thinking and believing certain things.  I exited each of the conversations quickly... .without blame... .left door open to talk more.

She has taken to refusing to discuss things... .even logistical things via email.  I would say that 70% of the emails I send are not responded to.

She began answering some of my questions via email last evening.  It has been surprisingly clear and effective.  Also very informative about her thought process.

I honestly have no idea if we will come to compromise today... .or not.  Right now I would suspect that we would.

I've already got things straight in my head that I'm ok with being blamed (correctly or incorrectly) for the trip falling apart.  In other words... .pretty sure I've got FOG in it's proper place.

FF

[formflier]

Been a while since I've posted about things in my r/s.  There has been a long period of relative stability.

It will be interesting to see if that continues today.

Apparently my wife wants to take all our kids and travel to see her sister... ."because our kids want to".  I was approached by D6... .pulling a loaded suitcase telling me that she was ready to go... ."if only I would let her... .so that she could give her presents to cousin (fill in cousins name)... ."  Was almost in tears

We have tried to have a couple verbal conversations about it... .things quickly fell apart with her accusing me of thinking and believing certain things.  I exited each of the conversations quickly... .without blame... .left door open to talk more.

She has taken to refusing to discuss things... .even logistical things via email.  I would say that 70% of the emails I send are not responded to.

She began answering some of my questions via email last evening.  It has been surprisingly clear and effective.  Also very informative about her thought process.

I honestly have no idea if we will come to compromise today... .or not.  Right now I would suspect that we would.

I've already got things straight in my head that I'm ok with being blamed (correctly or incorrectly) for the trip falling apart.  In other words... .pretty sure I've got FOG in it's proper place.

FF

[Notwendy]

What are your reservations about the trip?

How will you resolve this if she wants to do this and you don't want her to? At first glance, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to visit her sister with the kids. I'm sure you have your reasons, but it might make for a tough discussion.

[formflier]

 
Domestic violence/alcohol conviction on my oldest nephew when my SIL found him passed out drunk at her home.  She roused him... .badgered him in typical BPDish style.  He hit her several times... police were called... .he was arrested and taken to jail.  He entered a guilty plea, is getting regular drug testing.  I believe he is in a "first time offender program" that if he completes successfully... .will likely be expunged or set aside.

Same kid that entered my house without knocking... .was involved in vaping in my basement... .and I kicked out... .a couple months ago.  After his conviction.   

Basically... .I am interested in limiting his influence on our kids.  I do trust my wife to stay in house with them and monitor.  I do NOT trust my wife's judgment to delegate parental authority to her sister... .or other relatives.  I've been bitten by that many times, although on matters of much less importance.

Essentially... .my wife thinks/says my nephew is fixed... and that if we are nice enough to him... .that he will be transformed.  Same thinking that got nephew in the place that he is now. 

Sister is much more BPDish than my wife... .exponentially so.  My wife from time to time will comment on "how bad" she is.

FF

[formflier]

My wife is in a pickle.  She has chosen a religious "style" where she has to "obey" her husband.  That style is specific that I am responsible for discipline of our children and she is my "helper".

She has a "mentor" that is teaching her about these things.  Interestingly enough the BC (biblical counselor) is the supervisor of my wife's mentor.  Wife's mentor is a lady.

You guys can certainly predict the pickle.

I am ok with the trip with certain conditions (basically that my wife be in house when our teens are with my convicted nephew).  My wife claims "I don't trust her family... ."  That's true.

So... .she can agree to conditions and get my blessing... .or not take trip.  Or... .I suppose she could just pack up and leave without a blessing.

She has proposed certain ways of thinking  "Can't we just focus on the present and forget the past... ."  I've not engaged in those circular arguments or discussions.

FF

[Notwendy]

Without that "obedience" agreement, I would say this is a drama triangle situation without an easy solution. Even with the obedience is it a triangle.

Basically, you will be the persecutor here and wife (+kids) will be victim of mean Dad. Wife may try to "rescue" kids from big bad Dad.

You are both custodial parents and disagree on the situation with her sister. If it was you placing limits on visiting your FOO-  not a problem. The problem is that she sees her FOO differently- and is involved in her FOO dynamics. You are by nature- not in it - it was there before you and continues to be there.

Your wife may really see her family differently- she is a part of it.

I think your wife would take criticism of her family personally. Also she cares about them probably more than you do. You are likely more objective about them.

I think you're the bad guy here if you set limits, but being the bad guy for the good of your kids is sometimes necessary.

[formflier]

I think you're the bad guy here if you set limits, but being the bad guy for the good of your kids is sometimes necessary.

Yep... .this is how I see it.  I am all for a trip with reasonable limits.  In typical BPDish style... .it appears (my tea leaf reading)... .that my wife sees any limit as 100% failure and indication of my hatred for her family.

I think I'm still being successful at not being drawn in.  I'm letting my wife manager he own emotions... .my communications are clear that I am ready to discuss and what my questions are.   

I am validating some... .but due to nature of risk... .I'm going to hold out for clarity... .no assumptions.

100% of our verbal talks have degenerated into her making claims about my motives.  I've disengaged from those conversations in less than a minute.

About half of our emails have been short and productive.  Another half have drifted off into she is only one working, I'm a hostage taker... pretty typical BPDish stuff.  I've not engaged on that and redirected her to question at hand... .with an offer to discuss other matters if that is her desire.

I do agree that she is "luring" me to the drama triangle.  (not like she is thinking it through though).  My "attitude" is that she can place herself wherever she wants on the triangle.  Clarity about limits and parenting are more important than "making sure" she can't see me as a persecutor.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

One potential problem is that any agreements are up to her to carry once she is there. You've dealt with her breaking agreements before. Once there, your wife is also being subjected to pressure and influence from her own family and their drama. She may not know how to manage that beyond her own role in the family dysfunction.

[formflier]

 
Yep... .I believe that she understand this.  She "normally" uses the "out" of "I never said that"... .or "I never agreed to that... ."... ."you can't prove it"

She just verbally informed me that she would rather not visit her family in TN if it means creating a written agreement.  I let her know that I respected her choice and was ready work on compromise.

More later

FF

[formflier]

I just intervened in her discussing with the kids what "mommy and daddy" had been discussing and that "mommy and daddy" decided we were not going to go.

To her credit... .she stopped talking and came to talk to me privately.

We haven't made a decision, but potentially she has made a decision to stop discussing this. 

FF

[Notwendy]

Wow! She didn't triangulate. "Mommy and Daddy"

This is awesome. She deserves a pat on the back for that one.

Maybe a happy moment as a reward- everyone go out for really special ice cream- something like Ben and Jerry's, Baskin Robbins, DQ. A treat and  less costly than the gasoline for that trip.

[formflier]

Notwendy... .I agree. 

This just in.  She has decided to start communicating again.  She answered my question I had "reflected back" to her in email.

I have sent her my proposed compromise and trip plan so she can read and comment on it.

We'll see. 

FF

[formflier]

Well... .my wife and kids are off on their trip.  I am the proud recipient of a signed parenting/trip plan and document stating how much contact my wife "needs" with her family.

3 weeks in summer and 1 week every other Christmas holiday.  

The last place my wife "bucked up" on and said she would NEVER answer was when I was asking her via email about what she had offered as a "lifestyle" around visiting her family and spending time with them, should we move back to the area she grew up in.  We did ultimately move.  That was during a relatively good period in our relationship and "agreements" were done verbally.  

She has no memory whatsoever of what she actually offered... .and spent many emails describing what "she wouldn't" have offered.  Typical BPDish stuff... .I would never cut of my family forever... I would never be held hostage by you... .etc etc.  I didn't engage on any of those claims.

She said in one email... ."I will NEVER give you written proof that I don't remember"  I let her know that I respected her choice and was supportive of her decision.  Then as an "OBTW" kinda thing I asked her if she believed I was attempting to "trap her" or use that information to persecute her.

She then bucked up and said she didn't think that.  Then she said she had no idea what she offered in exchange for moving here... .

With that... .we went back to a verbal conversation... .where I did lots of listening about how she needed all this time with her family... .at one point she needed to travel over half the summer.  Lots of zingers in there as she alleged what I had promised her... .etc etc.

I didn't engage on any of it... .and pretty much knew ahead of time what that would be like.

One of my side businesses has been real estate.  So I've done lots of negotiations over the years.  Likely walked away from more deals that I've actually done.  That was where I tried to keep my head.  The party that cares the least... .will have a stronger negotiating position.  

I was also motivated by my "real" purpose, which was to define periods of stability and (relative) instability for my kids.  It was about "winning" for them.  

After a couple days of tossing zingers at me the instant we finished the agreement she painted me white... .want to have celebratory sex etc etc.  Literally less than an hour after I was the blackest of the black.  I deferred the sex offer and sort of nonchalantly went about doing other things while she and kids furiously packed.

She wanted to publicly praise me in front of family and I cut that off... . Part of our written agreement is that marital discussions are private (all discussions) and shall not ever be revealed to kids, except by mutual agreement.

The theory is that if I can get her out of the habit of publicly praising me there will be less swings to the side of publicly griping about me either.  More of a chance for the kids to be kids and not worry about the drama of the minute in their mother's life.

I went into this with a clear idea of what I wanted.  I was totally fine with no trip and my wife painting me black for an extended time. 

That theory involved me "fighting the fight" on my terms... .vice "her terms".  I didn't engage on any of the claims she made.  Excused myself from numerous conversations.


FF