I am thinking about things so hard I am starting to get pissed off.

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am really struggling today.
I feel the desire to go MIA on myself. Can I please hide under a rock of who gives a ?  This hurts!

I find that I see so many similarities in what others post, but i couldn't quite pinpoint what was bothering me.

This article shed some light.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

"Emotionally incestuous parents often slip into an "invasive" role without any intention to harm their children."

It’s important to remember that there are different levels of severity in emotional incest. Sometimes emotional incest is extremely severe and debilitating, and other times it’s more moderate and can almost go unnoticed.
The impact is nonetheless harmful.

Perhaps some validation that what I went through was in fact harmful would help. I think I get caught up in trying to justify that it "was just emotional" and that she never hit me or bruised me.  But then that makes me need to go down the painful road and talk about it.

I am    mad. I want to blame and just hate her. It would feel easier than the covert emotional incest that I don't even think she knows of.

I lie awake at night thinking of the good traits about my mom that I miss. The other side of this coin is...Look at how mad I am today.

And when I feel this way, I am concerned that being raised by her gave me BPD traits and I really need to do the work to change the cycle.

[Imatter33]

I am really struggling today.
I feel the desire to go MIA on myself. Can I please hide under a rock of who gives a ?  This hurts!

I find that I see so many similarities in what others post, but i couldn't quite pinpoint what was bothering me.

This article shed some light.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

"Emotionally incestuous parents often slip into an "invasive" role without any intention to harm their children."

It’s important to remember that there are different levels of severity in emotional incest. Sometimes emotional incest is extremely severe and debilitating, and other times it’s more moderate and can almost go unnoticed.
The impact is nonetheless harmful.

Perhaps some validation that what I went through was in fact harmful would help. I think I get caught up in trying to justify that it "was just emotional" and that she never hit me or bruised me.  But then that makes me need to go down the painful road and talk about it.

I am    mad. I want to blame and just hate her. It would feel easier than the covert emotional incest that I don't even think she knows of.

I lie awake at night thinking of the good traits about my mom that I miss. The other side of this coin is...Look at how mad I am today.

And when I feel this way, I am concerned that being raised by her gave me BPD traits and I really need to do the work to change the cycle.

[pursuingJoy]

Ugh. I'm so sorry you're hurting, Imatter.    It really sucks to wake up and see things how they really are. Your anger about emotional incest is justified and I'm glad you feel safe to express that here.   

My 11 yr old stepdaughter was on the phone with her mom around 11 pm one night saying, "Mommy, are you drunk? Mommy be careful on the steps. Let me know when you get in the house safe, ok? It's ok, don't cry. I know Mommy, I can't wait to be old enough to take care of you." I was livid. No child should have to feel compelled to say those things. It is so upsetting to me that she and you and so many others have had to navigate this kind of anxiety, feeling overly responsible for the wellbeing of parents.

I agree that sometimes it's so subtle it can go unnoticed. Can you think of subtle (or not so subtle) ways that your mom slipped into an invasive role?

I want to also point out that I've noticed in several of your posts that you are able to express love, appreciation, hurt and anger at the same time. It takes a lot of maturity to manage ambivalence. 

[SepiaScarf]

I feel the desire to go MIA on myself. Can I please hide under a rock of who gives a?  This hurts!

I feel you so much on this, I would say I have slammed into this brick wall so many times over that last few weeks. It would be so much easier to pretend this did not exist, to not have to feel this way. I get so tired of reliving the hurt, of devoting my time to it.
I am working hard to change my perspective from dealing with my mom's problems, stop making it about her.  To managing my own emotions, making myself a better/healthier person but is hard for me.

Seriously though I feel like it takes a great deal of courage.. and strength to do this. Take a moment a pat yourself on the back because this isn't easy and it does hurt but you're doing it!

[Harri]

Hi Imatter.  

Emotional abuse is the most damaging IMO.  It cuts deep and the tendrils of the abuse invade every area of us.  The fact that it is covert and not obvious is the hardest part about it.  It is also hard when we can see the good in our parent.  There is no 'just emotional' abuse.  

I know you are hurting and it feels horrible.  You can take a break from working on things but please do not hide.  Now is when you need the support as you just allow yourself to feel and acknowledge the abuse you experienced.  You will feel better and it is worth going through the so difficult and heartbreaking times as there are much better things to come for you and your family.  

Something to think about and maybe put this in perspective:  It is the emotional abuse combined with other types of abuse that make it so damaging.  If you were standing there and someone came up to you and punched you in the gut, just randomly, it would physically hurt, you would be confused and angry.  If that person were someone you knew, it would hurt emotionally in addition to everything else right?  Now that person you know is someone who raised you, trained you to respond and take care of their needs from the time you were a child, who now punches you in the gut while accusing you of never loving or caring for them while calling you nasty names they know will hurt you because they are the ones who put those sensitive buttons there and you have a much more devastating experience.  It is the emotional component that is so damaging.  

Again, there is no 'just emotional' abuse.  

You will get through this.  In the meantime though it sucks and hurts and will be hard and I am so sorry for that.  We get it here and we will listen and support you.

I really like what PJ said here:

I want to also point out that I've noticed in several of your posts that you are able to express love, appreciation, hurt and anger at the same time. It takes a lot of maturity to manage ambivalence.

I see that too and I agree.

Have you taken a look at the Survivors Guide?  It is excellent to work through and can help you focus and gives hope.  

BTW, anger is good.  It is a necessary part f grieving our losses and it is necessary for healing.  Use it to fuel your determination to heal and recover.  

Sepiascarf:

I am working hard to change my perspective from dealing with my mom's problems, stop making it about her.  To managing my own emotions, making myself a better/healthier person but is hard for me.

 This shift in the focus of your attention is a huge step.  It is difficult to change the focus but keep at it.  

[pursuingJoy]

Emotional abuse is the most damaging IMO.  It cuts deep and the tendrils of the abuse invade every area of us.  The fact that it is covert and not obvious is the hardest part about it.  It is also hard when we can see the good in our parent.  There is no 'just emotional' abuse.  

This 100%.

[Ozzie101]

When I was seeing a domestic violence counselor to deal with my husband's emotional/verbal abuse, she told me that across the board, her clients said they'd rather be hit or otherwise abused physically than abused emotionally. They could deal with the physical pain. The emotional was in a different realm.

[Methuen]

If you were standing there and someone came up to you and punched you in the gut, just randomly, it would physically hurt, you would be confused and angry.  If that person were someone you knew, it would hurt emotionally in addition to everything else right?  Now that person you know is someone who raised you, trained you to respond and take care of their needs from the time you were a child, who now punches you in the gut while accusing you of never loving or caring for them while calling you nasty names they know will hurt you because they are the ones who put those sensitive buttons there and you have a much more devastating experience.  It is the emotional component that is so damaging.

This explanation is so simple, dead accurate, and so profound.  This is a keeper quote for me.

The only thing I would add, is that after it's over, they can't remember doing/saying those things, and leave us with the emotional fallout while they seemingly carry on happy as if nothing ever happened.

Question:
1) How much awareness do they have?
2) Do they do all this with intent?  Is it planned?  Is it truly manipulation?  

I have been told by someone with a MSc in Health Care that it is not manipulation...  Hard to know what to say to that 'cause it sure feels like manipulation.  It's so so so sad. What a loss in quality of life for everyone involved (BPD and us).

[Harri]

Hi Methuen.  Glad my rambling helped. 

The only thing I would add, is that after it's over, they can't remember doing/saying those things, and leave us with the emotional fallout while they seemingly carry on happy as if nothing ever happened.

Some of their ability to carry on and seeming happy is, I think, because the dysregulation serves as a release for a lot of emotional build up.  Dysregulation = pressure release.  That in combination with denial and dissociation explains it well for me.

Question:
1) How much awareness do they have?
2) Do they do all this with intent?  Is it planned?  Is it truly manipulation?

I think they have some awareness but denial, dissociation and other defenses kick in.  Many pwBPD know what they do after the fact and do indeed feel remorse and are upset by their actions.  We do not hear much about this here on the boards or even other sites that are focused on the non's experience with BPD.  There are however, lots of pwBPD who are in therapy, are aware and are working to recover.  We talk about a very limited set here often people who have traits rather than the disorder and who are not in therapy and never will be. 

As for intent:  while their actions and words may feel manipulative and therefore deliberate to us, for the most part I agree with the statements that deliberate and intentional do not apply.  (please note that BPD is on a spectrum and you will have extremes.  There is also the complicating factor of co-morbidities, one of which is NPD where there is no empathy and intention and manipulation is more deliberate). 

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  pwBPD tend to be low in skills involving executive function.  When they feel vulnerable and become emotionally dysregulated, they are overcome by emotions.  So to be able to plan and plot while under such extreme emotions seems pretty unlikely especially when you consider the poor executive function. 

I think once removed says it best:  BPD is about skill deficits, rather than a set of skills that allow them to be cunning and manipulative.  (I paraphrased that)

Thoughts?

[Imatter33]

 If you were standing there and someone came up to you and punched you in the gut, just randomly, it would physically hurt, you would be confused and angry.  If that person were someone you knew, it would hurt emotionally in addition to everything else right?  Now that person you know is someone who raised you, trained you to respond and take care of their needs from the time you were a child, who now punches you in the gut while accusing you of never loving or caring for them while calling you nasty names they know will hurt you because they are the ones who put those sensitive buttons there and you have a much more devastating experience.  It is the emotional component that is so damaging.  

Again, there is no 'just emotional' abuse.  

This clarification did help.

BTW, anger is good.  It is a necessary part f grieving our losses and it is necessary for healing.  Use it to fuel your determination to heal and recover.

In all honesty the shift from sadness to anger was a needed reprieve. But I am no where close to done, as I am sure that idea is not attainable. But I can manage my feelings and triggers better. Cannot say thank you enough for the support you all provide!  I went to school, counseling, all types of stuff seeking a safe refuge friend I could confide in. 4 years later I found you all. 

The only thing I would add, is that after it's over, they can't remember doing/saying those things, and leave us with the emotional fallout while they seemingly carry on happy as if nothing ever happened.

This was hitting the nail on the head for me. And I agree with the very good explanation Harri gave but i think it akin to emotional amnesia. And to my moms credit she has certainly apologized time and time again for things, but her dysregulator being off, her fortitude to "act differently" is so weak.
So I feel like the biggest  for saying this. I've run out of patience. In essence that's what nc feels like. The bigger picture of nc is not just that but its the elephant in my room.

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  pwBPD tend to be low in skills involving executive function.  When they feel vulnerable and become emotionally dysregulated, they are overcome by emotions.  So to be able to plan and plot while under such extreme emotions seems pretty unlikely especially when you consider the poor executive function. 

I think once removed says it best:  BPD is about skill deficits, rather than a set of skills that allow them to be cunning and manipulative.  (I paraphrased that)

My mothers skill deficits have wounded me deeply. I am ashamed to state that. I feel that she cannot be to blame for the skill deficits. (Her mother perpetuated this and other abuses)
I feel like my mother's bully.
But not running away...her SKILL DEFICITS WOUNDED ME.
I hope she has been getting counseling in this time away from each other... for her sake. But I see this all now clearly and lets just say im not eager to have contact again unless my healing is profound.

What do I need to be healed from? What actually is the source of my pain? "Not surprisingly, the character flaws we have the hardest time accepting are the ones that wounded us most during childhood. When our parents act in destructive and familiar ways, our present anguish is magnified by our early pain. Underneath our grown-up dismay is a little child crying out for more love and safety. Taken from https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

She didn't keep me emotionally safe as a young child or now. What do I need to do to feel safe and secure in who I am now as an adult?
Do I need to sit with this fear (lack of safety feeling) longer to heal.?

Pondering.

[GaGrl]

We've written often on this board about grieving the relationship with a parent that we wanted but now realize will never have. We also talk about the stages of grieving -- the Kubler-Ross model is Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance.

Do you recognize yourself as being in a state of grieving your relationship with your mother, so you can release yourself? If so, do you think you are moving from Denial to Anger?

[Methuen]

As for intent:  while their actions and words may feel manipulative and therefore deliberate to us, for the most part I agree with the statements that deliberate and intentional do not apply.  (please note that BPD is on a spectrum and you will have extremes.  There is also the complicating factor of co-morbidities, one of which is NPD where there is no empathy and intention and manipulation is more deliberate).

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  pwBPD tend to be low in skills involving executive function.  When they feel vulnerable and become emotionally dysregulated, they are overcome by emotions.  So to be able to plan and plot while under such extreme emotions seems pretty unlikely especially when you consider the poor executive function.

I think once removed says it best:  BPD is about skill deficits, rather than a set of skills that allow them to be cunning and manipulative.  (I paraphrased that)

This is a logical explanation I can understand and accept.  It is so so helpful, and a great Christmas gift.  Thanks Harri.

[Methuen]

Hi Imatter

My post here is a note of support and encouragement for you.  Five-6 months ago I felt like I wanted to explode.  I was pretty angry with everything, and also thinking in expletives .  

So I feel like the biggest  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) for saying this. I've run out of patience. In essence that's what nc feels like. The bigger picture of nc is not just that but its the elephant in my room.

Maybe others would disagree, but I think it's ok to feel like this.  I can't say my experience was the same or even similar, but 5-6 months ago I was talking about moving away from the place that has been home for me almost my whole life - just to escape my uBPD mom.  I was prepared to consider leaving my friends, my community, all my connections, everything that was familiar, and just run and get the   out of her town, preferably as far away as possible (she's 83 and frail).  So I think feeling like you describe you are feeling, running out of patience etc etc is all part of the process of moving through some kind of recovery.  

I think it's ok to just feel those feelings, and keep working toward whatever recovery means for you.  We each have to find our own path.  You'll get there.  I feel like I've made progress over the last few months, and I'm no longer thinking about moving away a dozen times a day.  I feel like I'm somewhere along the depression-acceptance continuum of the Kubler Ross model, although I suspect it's a life long process.  If someone had told me 5 months ago I would be able to say that now, I wouldn't have believed it.  

Just don't beat yourself up for what you are feeling.  Feeling those things doesn't mean we are bad.  It means we are human.  It's part of a process.  Just accept it, and keep moving forward.

For me, the paragraph from Harri explaining what it's like to be emotionally abused really hit home.  It makes it easier to accept some of the feelings I think I shouldn't have, and then move past them.

If you were standing there and someone came up to you and punched you in the gut, just randomly, it would physically hurt, you would be confused and angry.  If that person were someone you knew, it would hurt emotionally in addition to everything else right?  Now that person you know is someone who raised you, trained you to respond and take care of their needs from the time you were a child, who now punches you in the gut while accusing you of never loving or caring for them while calling you nasty names they know will hurt you because they are the ones who put those sensitive buttons there and you have a much more devastating experience.  It is the emotional component that is so damaging.

 

[Harri]

I can manage my feelings and triggers better.

   I am celebrating your improvement in this as it is so hard to do.  I am also celebrating the fact that you can see this change in you and are owning it!  Good stuff.    This board is a pretty special place isn't it?  

So I feel like the biggest for saying this. I've run out of patience. In essence that's what nc feels like. The bigger picture of nc is not just that but its the elephant in my room.

I agree with Methuen that it is okay to feel like this.  Feelings just are and as we are self aware and are able to not act on them indiscriminately, it is good that you can feel it, express it and sit with it.  So many times we try to push feelings away, especially ones that show us as less than in our own eyes.  Note:  I see nothing wrong in you feeling this way and have been there myself.  It is good that you can see this and own it.

My mothers skill deficits have wounded me deeply. I am ashamed to state that. I feel that she cannot be to blame for the skill deficits.

Those deficits have wounded you and that is a very hurtful thing and being angry is a healthy response.  When it comes to blame/responsibility for this stuff, I do believe they are responsible despite the disorder and despite the abuse.  One thing I learned early on in my recovery is something called the existential paradox by Dr. Joseph Santoro  ( I think it comes from AA but I am not sure of that).

Existential Paradox:  
We are not responsible for how we came to be who we are as adults
but as adults we are responsible for whom we have become and for everything we say and do.

Over the years this simple statement has taken on so much meaning and significance for my own healing.  I too was abused.  I too had (have?) some less than healthy behaviors ( ).  I look at my past to understand how I came to be the way I am but not to excuse or justify it.    BTW, when I first learned this saying, I did not like it but it got in my head and rattled around for a while.  I kept going back to it and it finally became something I clung to as a motivator, as solace and as a source of hope.  

I do not mention it here for you to tell it to your mom but perhaps to give you a slightly different perspective re: your feeling of shame for being wounded and for feeling like you can't blame her for what she has done.  I think there is a difference between blame and responsibility as well.

She didn't keep me emotionally safe as a young child or now. What do I need to do to feel safe and secure in who I am now as an adult?
Do I need to sit with this fear (lack of safety feeling) longer to heal.?

Sitting with our feelings is good... up to a point.  When it comes to meeting the needs we have from childhood, it is up to us to learn how to satisfy those needs.  The word empowerment comes to mind.  As does agency.

You are doing some really good work here.  I hope when I responded and talked about skill deficits it came across as supportive.  My aim is to offer info so you can build a stable framework for the emotional work you are doing.  If it comes across as something else, let me know please.  

[Imatter33]

We've written often on this board about grieving the relationship with a parent that we wanted but now realize will never have. We also talk about the stages of grieving -- the Kubler-Ross model is Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance.

Do you recognize yourself as being in a state of grieving your relationship with your mother, so you can release yourself? If so, do you think you are moving from Denial to Anger?

I didn't see this way before, but now it seems apparent. I just feel like these stages take a long time and in reality. The grieving seems life long. But perhaps the other stages will not be so drawn out. Who knows. It is so different for everyone.

I have honed on that I am angry that Mom didn't keep me safe. One memory that keeps coming up for me is the habitual crying in the bathroom. She would lock herself in there and sob for hours. Sometimes every day. She checked out of being our mom during those times and I remember thinking it must be normal.  The anger/devastated cycle was emotionally truamatizing followed by one or two days of "nice mom"

The things I cannot remember as a kid are troubling me. I'm glad I've forgotten some things but I just am so angry at my loss of childhood. (Many can relate)

My mom would get in my face many a time trying to intimidate. And back when we were talking she often would say,  "I don't want my kids scared of me." Well Mom, I have been scared for a long time. But moreso so sad that you are that troubled at least  every other day. Like  Methuen said "  It's so so so sad. What a loss in quality of life for everyone involved (BPD and us)." [/quote]

There are overt things to be scared of for sure,  But again, covert things are so intense. My mom has a tendency to physically twitch her mouth tight when she is thinking something emotionally triggering or angering. She would do it, and I could feel the air leave my body. The signal that Mom has left the building. She was either going to overreact to the next thing that someone did, or suggest we all had to leave a perfectly fine activity. Maybe she would hold it in for an entire night to day, but a call was coming, an email, a text that everything was  again.

Thanks everyone. I can't believe I feel safe enough here to share these things. Although i'll be honest that I have anxiety about "family" finding this support group and knowing who I am.
Gah.




 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Imatter33,

You are having so many revelations right now. It's no wonder that you are feeling such a spectrum of emotions. I so well remember going through these stages as I began to uncover my childhood with an uBPDm. For some time I felt like it was a black hole that wanted to suck me in. The fact that you are working on all this says that you want to heal, and that you will get there. This journey is indeed that, a journey. It isn't a point of arrival where we can say, "I'm done." When another member pointed that out to me, I was disappointed because I wanted to be better, right away. Healing comes step by step, and we will be here to walk alongside of you as you go. Keep sharing.

When I began to deal with my own emotional incest issues from my childhood (and I do like those words because it is an accurate description of how invasive it is), it was helpful to begin to reach out to my Lil' Wools. She had so many unmet needs. This article When are the children of a BPD parent at risk? How can you tell? What can you do? actually was pretty helpful to me. I cried when I read it (I couldn't read it all at once), and I began to do some of the things suggested for my little inner ones because no one had done these things for me. Perhaps you will find it to be helpful as well.

What do you think one of the needs of your inner little ones is right now?

 
Wools