Over 3 Years, The Kids Still Want Us Back Together

[Turkish]

She moved into a different apartment the first week in January with no drama.  Christmas night , our D4 awoke to cops in their apartment. Both she and her H (the guy she left me for) called the cops on each other.  It's a miracle that neither or both was arrested that night, and the cops warned them that if they came back,  this would be the case.

I've been painted white for a long time now.  I listen without judgement.

He had been detaching in his own way for months.  The kids never really bonded with him add a step parent, which is sad.  I was willing to stuff my feelings and help,  but she started blocking him. 

Jet more kicked our kids out of the house last week.  We've been scrambling to secure care.  I think weer finally found a solution tonight,  which is great.  If I were a new Detachers, I would point out that we could afford for her to be a SAHM, but that wouldn't be helpful. 

This is what I've had in my mind since this started, notwithstanding my rants on Detaching 2-3 years ago: what's most helpful? What's best for the kids?

We interviewed the family tonight.  They live near my home.  My ex picked me up.  It made sense. 

stbxh  (I think,  though they both might exist in this marriage in limbo for quite a while) wasn't there.  Sunday,  she I and the kids went out to lunch after church to discuss things.  She suggested that her husband's grandma might be able to pick up from school and watch the kids.  She asked me what I thought.  I said no.  She said on with no argument.  Leaving aside the dysfunction,  she told me that he had previously threatened to call the cops on her (for her two previous batteries) and that he'd end up with the kids.  While I don't fear an Amber Alert situation (this is the national abducted child protocol in the USA), that's delusional. I think she knows this which is why she told me at the time. 

She invited him over for dinner last week,  ignoring my counsel not to invite him into the home when the kids were there (and I prefaced this by saying that whatever she did on her own time was none of my business). Of course,  they both ignored my counsel about DV and safety plans since the Christmas night incident happened,  after a previous incident where she threw her cell phone at him and he "accidentally" punched her hand.  Amazing since they both takes thanked me previously for offering advice based upon the DV protocols here.  It further confirmed what we know here: that DV situations aren't so simple as "you need to leave now!" or "just call 911!" Situations like this tend to be complex,  with no immediately clear answers. 

The triggers of them co-habitating are no longer there, which is good.  I expect subsequent drama,  but if the kids aren't involved,  none of my business,  and I don't have to report, which I am one incident away from doing.  I implicitly told both of them months ago.  WOE, I am. 

On the ride back to my house,  S7 asked if I could come over to Mommy's to spend the night (on the way over,  he asked why I was in mommy's car.  I made a joke to deflect). I said that that wasn't going to happen. He didn't respond; his mom said nothing. 

3+ years and thus still goes on. I've read that the feelings of the kids like this can continue for even more years.  I think D4 gets it,  but our son told me last week that the H was just living in another house to work on it.  So she hasn't been truthful with them. Everything I've read,  and professional advice,  has said that we need to be truthful with children,  age appropriately. She hasn't been from the beginning. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Just responding to your title. When in MC, the T expland to us that it is typical for all kids after divorce to fantisize, even past teen years, about their birth parents reuniting.  It would just be something for us to deal with intermittently. 

She simply explained that the kid, when younger, had some magical like thinking that life would always be the same, the way it was, so it is tricky for them when parents split.  That expressing to her the reality that mom and dad were done, would keep popping up here and there, and actually, she said if it doesnt, we should still bet on her still thinking it in some way.

[Mutt]

Hi Turk,

So she hasn't been truthful with them. Everything I've read,  and professional advice,  has said that we need to be truthful with children,  age appropriately. She hasn't been from the beginning.

My kids will ask from time to time if mom and dad are going to get back together. I wish that they didn't have to go through this, it's harder going through divorce when kids are teenager, thankfully they're younger so there's that. Kids are pretty resilient, maybe we don't give them enough credit.

Do you think that the kids in a few years from now are going to pick up on mom's inability to tell the truth?

[Turkish]

Sun,

Thanks for reminding me of this.  I've also read elsewhere that kids who experience divorce young keep it in their minds that mommy and daddy would get back together.  It may be harder for our kids that we have so much contact,  SD is 20 years younger than me (he's not mature in the way that I am... .but necessarily a slam,  but the truth), they moving into the 3rd apartment in 3 years,  and he moving separately now, though I've seen signals that at least in his mind,  it's "lovey-dovey" again. Easier when you're not living together with the normal triggers. 

Muttley,

I honestly don't know. S7 is a people pleaser, and though there are sometimes issues with his ASD traits (supposedly), he's a kind kid.  D4 is more resilient and defiant.  It's her personality. My T chastised me for saying she was enmeshed with her mom (enmeshed implies a pathology), but 9/10 nights she wants to call mommy at bedtime (S7 could take it or leave it). In the first year,  D then 1 and 2 never asked to call her mom,  though I got calls on the reverse. 

It's hard to navigate this without engaging in possibly alienating behaviors myself.  I'm constantly checking myself: "what's best for the kids."

[Sunfl0wer]

I hear ya on the enmeshment and pathologizing things.  It is hard for me to wrap my head around my sis with uBPD and not label what she does as enmeshment... .even if in my head.

It's hard to navigate this without engaging in possibly alienating behaviors myself.  I'm constantly checking myself: "what's best for the kids."

I think there is a difference between wanting your kids to seperate and individuate from mom and alienating them from mom.  Allowing the kids space to self sooth away from mom, or have other feelings seperate from mom is NOT alienation.

After reading and watching all Craig Childress youtube vids of alienation when I was coping with this from ex's ex... .  The alienating parent is quite well defined in pathology to be acting primarily NPD with some BPD.

You do not seem to be acting or making decisions out of (a self serving vs realistic) fear of loosing the kids. (Based on what I can observe from here, :P ). You do not seem to make decisions based of fear of them seperating from you, fear of them having a different reality than yours etc.

You actually are able to empathize with your ex's perception even while disagreeing with it and having your own.  You do not simply state she is wrong, delusional, etc to have her own perception.

You simply do in fact allow her perception to exist, you consider it/ponder it, as you do the kids often as well.

Idk, this is turning a bit rambly... .
There is a balance I imagine... .
I don't imagine at all you being near the side of alienating kids. (Acting NPDish/self serving to the expense of the kids emotional health)
More like to the side of fearing to alienate them thus allowing mom influence that is not helping them individuate. (More likely to be overcautious and be too selfless, too considerate of mom's reality)
I hope that makes sense and is kindly enough said.

[And of course it is lots of non fact stuff (simply opinion)so take it or leave it, just hope it is not offensive.]

[Mutt]

Hi Turk,

I just wanted to share this, I think that it's likely that the kids will know that what mom says sounds funny. I know that everyone's situation is different, my D11 can tell that what mom says doesn't make sense sometimes. Your kids will probably know that if I go to dad he'll be truthful.