Mom trying to use MIL to send gifts

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi friends. It has been a while (months, maybe even more than a year...?) since I've visited here, so I apologize for my absence from your lives... I'm back today with a situation I need some insight on.

Background:  We have been basically NC with my uBPD mom for almost 3 years now. I haven't actually blocked her, so she can still see my social media and she has still sent me texts now & then, but I don't respond to anything. This has consequently put me out of contact with my dad and siblings as well, since they choose her over me.

We moved this past summer (overseas actually), and I have not given my family our new address. When at our last home, my mom continued to send gifts to my 2 children. Side note: my mom is OBSESSED with gifts - both giving and receiving. Always has been, for as long as I can remember. At Christmas she sends a huge box that she pays exorbitant amounts of money to ship, with way too many gifts for my small children, and a few things for me too.

Since we moved, she has texted me 2 or 3 times BEGGING for our new address so she can send birthday gifts to my kids. I did not respond. She asked me "please don't take away this one small connection we have with the boys."  In reality, my kids have no idea who she is. I do not read them the notes she sends. IF I give them her gifts (and sometimes I just throw/give them away) I don't try to explain who it's from. So the "connection" is only a feel-good thing on her end. Since I didn't respond, she just sent money for their birthdays through PayPal instead (also sent money for my birthday and my husband's - who she really dislikes!)

Okay... all that set-up to say... I found out last night that she's now trying to go through my MIL to find a way to send Christmas gifts.  She knows we have a good relationship with my in-laws and she knows they have our address. She's not asking MIL for the address; she's asking if she can send gifts to MIL and have her forward them to us.

I'm so frustrated that she is putting my poor MIL in the middle like this. I feel like she's really crossing a line here, and completely ignoring the boundaries that I have made obvious by not responding to her requests for our address.

I haven't talked to my mom in almost 3 years, but I think at this point I need to text/email her to tell her to stop trying to use my MIL to get to us. Right?? This is just not okay.

OR... on the flip side, do I just let her send her stupid gifts?
Am I overreacting on the gift thing?
I don't want her to have our address because then she will start sending things all the time (gifts, notes, postcards, etc). But I also don't want my MIL in the middle of the situation, having to forward things for her.

I'm not sure of the right thing here. I WANT to message her and tell her to stop crossing this boundary. But then part of my mind goes, why is it such a big deal to let her send a Christmas gift (or several, in reality).

Help.. any insight?

[WalkbyFaith]

Hi friends. It has been a while (months, maybe even more than a year...?) since I've visited here, so I apologize for my absence from your lives... I'm back today with a situation I need some insight on.

Background:  We have been basically NC with my uBPD mom for almost 3 years now. I haven't actually blocked her, so she can still see my social media and she has still sent me texts now & then, but I don't respond to anything. This has consequently put me out of contact with my dad and siblings as well, since they choose her over me.

We moved this past summer (overseas actually), and I have not given my family our new address. When at our last home, my mom continued to send gifts to my 2 children. Side note: my mom is OBSESSED with gifts - both giving and receiving. Always has been, for as long as I can remember. At Christmas she sends a huge box that she pays exorbitant amounts of money to ship, with way too many gifts for my small children, and a few things for me too.

Since we moved, she has texted me 2 or 3 times BEGGING for our new address so she can send birthday gifts to my kids. I did not respond. She asked me "please don't take away this one small connection we have with the boys."  In reality, my kids have no idea who she is. I do not read them the notes she sends. IF I give them her gifts (and sometimes I just throw/give them away) I don't try to explain who it's from. So the "connection" is only a feel-good thing on her end. Since I didn't respond, she just sent money for their birthdays through PayPal instead (also sent money for my birthday and my husband's - who she really dislikes!)

Okay... all that set-up to say... I found out last night that she's now trying to go through my MIL to find a way to send Christmas gifts.  She knows we have a good relationship with my in-laws and she knows they have our address. She's not asking MIL for the address; she's asking if she can send gifts to MIL and have her forward them to us.

I'm so frustrated that she is putting my poor MIL in the middle like this. I feel like she's really crossing a line here, and completely ignoring the boundaries that I have made obvious by not responding to her requests for our address.

I haven't talked to my mom in almost 3 years, but I think at this point I need to text/email her to tell her to stop trying to use my MIL to get to us. Right?? This is just not okay.

OR... on the flip side, do I just let her send her stupid gifts?
Am I overreacting on the gift thing?
I don't want her to have our address because then she will start sending things all the time (gifts, notes, postcards, etc). But I also don't want my MIL in the middle of the situation, having to forward things for her.

I'm not sure of the right thing here. I WANT to message her and tell her to stop crossing this boundary. But then part of my mind goes, why is it such a big deal to let her send a Christmas gift (or several, in reality).

Help.. any insight?

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother has sent money gifts to my kids. It's not that sending gifts is wrong in general but that- BPD mother uses money to control people and it feels manipulative to me. If she sends them money- there's an obligation on their part. She hasn't done this since we discovered she has financial issues- the kids won't accept gifts from her for this reason.

My BPD mother triangulates people "against" me and also has tried to enlist my kids to "her side" and as emotional caretakers to her. They are adults now and have their own boundaries with her. When they were younger, I tried to have some boundaries on her access to them. She wants one on one contact with them - separate from me. One reason I didn't share their college addresses or cell phone numbers with her is that- when I was that age, her behaviors were disruptive. I wanted them to be able to have their college experience without this issue.

Boundaries to my mother are simply an inconvenient challenge. She was able to find out their contact information by going to friends or other family members and getting this info from them. She thinks she's been successful at overriding my boundary by calling them directly. I have told the kids it's up to them if they want to take the call or ignore it.

I eventually convinced her to mail checks and gift cards to our house as college kids move frequently and she was sending them to old addresses and they weren't being received but she dislikes not having their current addresses.

To her, I am "keeping her from her grandkids". At this point, they are adults and make their own choices to be in contact with her or not. I feel sorry for her that she doesn't have much contact with them but it's due to her behaviors - not them being inconsiderate.

So back to your situation. Like my mother- your mother wants access to the kids, with or without your agreement, so she's ignoring your boundaries, and going to other people to get around them.

How does your MIL feel about this?

I think what you do depends on what your MIL wants to do. Your MIL may not want to get into a conflict with your mother. She may or may not feel comfortable saying no to her. If she doesn't - them your mother will send gifts. However you don't have to break NC with your mother or give them to your children. To me this feels like inciting you to break NC. Even a "don't do this" comment will be contact with your mother and this may be what she's seeking. You know that telling your mother to not do something isn't effective.

My suggestion is- to maintain NC as you have decided on. Let your MIL respond however she feels is comfortable for her.

If gifts arrive - there are charities that collect Christmas gifts for families who can't afford them and so the gifts could be donated.

[WalkbyFaith]

Thanks Notwendy, for your reply. I feel that my mom uses money/gifts too...or maybe it's that that's the main way she knows how to show "love"? I'm not sure.

So I broke my NC and sent this message to my mom:
We've been thinking and talking about it , and I realize that sending mail/gifts was not a boundary I had previously set, so it's not something I should try to set now. I will give you an address where you can send something for the boys - with some stipulations - but first I want to say this:

It's not okay that you are trying to go behind my back and get [MIL] to send gifts for you. I do not want her in the middle of this situation; plus, that just feels like manipulation, going to her when you didn't get what you wanted from me.
Then gave her our work (not home) address and told her she could send ONE gift for each of my boys.

She replied with several texts in a row:
I absolutely did not intend to go behind your back. I'm sorry that you still see me as nothing but manipulative. I'm sorry if that's what it looked like. I sent packages through her the entire time you lived in Michigan, so I did not see it was different to send them through her now. It was in absolutely no way intended to go behind your back or put her in the middle...
I did not ever ask for an address because I was honoring your "boundaries". It crushes my heart that you would accuse me of this.

I had hoped with time your heart would soften toward us, and you would be able to see the truth. Yes, I stumble and make mistakes, but I am not the horrible person you have said. But, I can see you truly don't want any reconciliation, even though I've tried to ask what that would take...I will leave you completely alone like you want. I'm sorry.

I will always pray for your healing, and i will always be your biggest cheerleader. I will always be here, waiting. I will always love you.

I want to apologize. I went back and looked at my messages, and I see that right after you moved, I did ask you for your address. I promise you that I had/have no memory of that at all. I absolutely, honestly had no manipulation in my mind or heart when I asked [MIL] about sending gifts. It was an honest mistake, and I can see how it could look like I went behind your back. I only wish that you really knew who I am and what my heart is, instead of jumping to conclusions that I'm awful.

Ugggghhh.
My thoughts -- for one, it's the same as always; the finger points back at me. How dare you think of me that way, how could you say that about me. YOU don't want reconciliation. etc. Always the same story. And she's praying for my healing? Right, because I'm the one with all the issues, not her...
Second, okay so MAYBE she forgot that she asked (in reality: begged) for my address when we first moved. She claims that her illness (chronic lyme disease as the most recent, but it's always been something) affects her brain and memory. Maybe that's true, but it certainly seems to be "convenient" a lot of times - she never remembers that she said or did something mean/negative.
Third, her putting my "boundaries" in quotation marks...obviously she has no real respect for them.

[Methuen]

WalkbyFaith,

I am sorry.  What strikes me most is her reply.  The "innocence".  The pretending.  The invalidation.  Not addressing the absence.  The game.  And yes, the use of italics in boundaries actually says a lot. 

Also the denial.  The lack of awareness.  It's effectively gaslighting you.

This is the worst kind of reply.  A ranting raging one would be affirming of why you are NC.  Instead she dons the sweet angelic innocent persona and says this:

but I am not the horrible person you have said. But, I can see you truly don't want any reconciliation

, effectively casting blame on you.

I had an uncle in my teen years who wisely shared with me that when a person points the finger at someone else in blame, the thumb is pointing up to God and the other three fingers are pointing back to the person.  That is a favorite memory of that uncle.  A real piece of wisdom. 

In my experience, after they say or do things that no mother should say or do, there is no effort at repair or reconciliation, or reflection or personal accountability.  In my more naive days, I used to try to communicate how her actions affected me.  She would always twist this to attack me and say "all I do is make her feel bad about herself" and a litany of other things in her dysregulated state.  She couldn't own any part of hurting me or take any accountability.

Reading about your mom's need and desire to "give gifts" is interesting.  The issue with gift giving is what is expected in return. If the gift is given purely out of joy of giving that is one thing.  But!  With borderlines there are always strings attached.  My mother always had to point out how much the gift cost.  Guilt.  Or how much time it took her to make.  Guilt.  She has expectations for gifts in return.  Obligation.  And then there's the disappointment when whatever we get them isn't right. I have so many stories.  There's also fear of getting the wrong gift. 

I can empathize why the gifts feel icky for you.  Disingenuous?  Out of sync with the actual relationship?  Leaves you feeling like you owe her?  Do any of these fit for you?

My mom used to also give gifts of food (back when she could still bake). Not me, nor anyone else had the option to say "no thanks".  She used to bake rhubarb cakes.  All the time.  So many rhubarb cakes.  First of all,  I don't eat cake. Rhubarb I can tolerate in small portions, but I don't need a 9x13 pan of it.  I didn't have the option to say "no thanks", and when I tried, she took it as total rejection of HER.  I wasn't "allowed" to just take a small piece.  It had to be the whole pan.  It felt controlling. I had no space to be an individual with my own likes and dislikes.  It simply wasn't safe to say "no thanks" or tell her I didn't care for rhubarb cakes.  If I said no thanks, she got very upset.  And it was always very scary to say or do anything that would make "mother upset". It wasn't worth it so say no thanks.  It was easier to take the cake, bury it, and then lie when she went fishing for compliments:  "how was the cake?" When this is the foundation of the relationship, accepting gifts doesn't feel right.  From her point of view, she's an amazing person because she "does nice things for other people".  There's something wrong with them if they can't appreciate her cakes.

Back to you and your mom, I don't know the history.  But I believe that if receiving a gift doesn't feel right, and in fact results in feelings of resentment like what you have described, that is a clear symptom of something unhealthy in the relationship.  Normally gifts make us feel appreciated, recognized, or just "thought of" and cared about. 

If the gift brings other negative feelings, you shouldn't be obligated to accept them.  Nor should you feel bad about it.

But somehow, they have the remarkable skill to always make us feel bad.  And that is what gives them their power.

I think this may be why NW suggested maintaining your NC over responding to MIL. 

By responding, she drew you in.  Then you got her response which rouses more negative emotions. So, out of curiosity, if you had a redo, would you still respond?

Also, how does MIL feel about your mom sending gifts through her?  I mean - that's just wierd.  If she can't send them to you directly because you don't give your address, that's clear to anyone you don't want communication including gifts.  So by going through your MIL, she's triangulating.  I'm curious if your MIL sees any wierdness in that.

[Notwendy]

What you just experienced is a typical response from my BPD mother. There are some reasons for why this happens. PwBPD have difficulty with uncomfortable feelings. Projection and denial are two ways they mentally protect themselves.  If they did something they might feel badly about or potentially feel shame- it's projected on to something else, or it didn't happen. They can not see it. A result of this is taking Victim perspective on the Karmpan triangle. This avoids accountability. What your mother did in this situation is to reframe the blame on you.

To me, this is one reason why relationship repair is so difficult. We are humans- we will make mistakes in relationships with other people. We might offend them, or do something that we need to apologize for. They may do the same to us. We have a way to repair these situations. If someone tells us they are upset with us over something- they need to feel heard. Then we can apologize to them. After that we need to be mindful to not repeat the behavior they are upset about.

With my mother, this can't happen. To express any kind of anger, upset, or point out something she did/said seems to hit a force field and bounce right back. If it's anger, it gets bounced back with even more of it. Sometimes she does things to "get back".

I don't even attempt to start these kinds of conversations with her. It's not that I am avoiding doing so- it's that with experience, I have learned it's useless and doesn't achieve the goal I want- which is to move to repair. I don't bring these kinds of things up to be hurtful or insulting.  However if I do, she feels attacked and her response is to defend herself.

Sometimes I think my BPD mother is aware that she's crossed the line with us and so her way of "repair" is to pretend that whatever happened didn't happen and just act nice. She also expects others to go along with this too. We don't dare bring up what happened. If we did, she'd disregulate and blame us for bringing this up. The problem with this approach is that there's no learning from this. There's no apology or repair, or attempt to not repeat the behavior.

I think we have a natural drive to connect to our mothers, and feel responsible for this connection but we can only be as connected as someone's emotional capacity for it. BPD affects all relationships. I think what you did- contacting your mother with your concerns- is a natural response to try to reach out and connect. I think it would help to understand that the way your mother responded is a result of her own emotional limitations, not specifically with you.I have learned over time that this is who my mother is- and all she can do. She's limited in her capacity to have a reciprocal relationship with anyone.  I have seen her respond in the same way to caretakers, and other people, so I know it's not me. Because of this, she has limited relationships with people.

I have one memory that I recall because it seemed so strange at the time. I didn't know about BPD. I was a teen and came home early from school one day. My mother didn't hear me come in. I went straight to my room and when I opened the door, I found BPD mother in one of my drawers snooping. My things were everywhere and she was snooping through my room. (she had no reason to do so, I think a parent would do this if they suspected drugs or something but she didn't- this was snooping, reading my private letters and notes). I was shocked to see it. BPD mother turned around and in witch mode became angry at me for walking into my own room! How dare you come into this room!!- as if somehow I did something to her.

Now I see this as typical of how she reacts when either confronted or caught doing something that in a relationship- isn't OK to do. My decision to not bring things up to her is due to seeing it does no good, but also realizing it's not personal to just me. It's her own emotional capacity.