What is an appropriate boundary?

[victoria112]

I'm trying to figure out an appropriate boundary with my mother. Nearly every time I do something to upset her, she will change the facts of the story to make my actions sound worse. I'm not sure why she does this, maybe she wants to justify her behavior when she has extreme reactions. She will make false accusations of me, change the order of events, or claim something never happened, always to make her look better and the other person worse. She will then tell her distorted version of the story to family members to seek sympathy or will scream and demand that I admit what I've done to her "or else". I often end up in several day long arguments with her while I stand my ground and field texts from my father telling me to "make things right" with her and how he's "shocked by my behavior". I always apologize for the hurt feelings that she has but do not admit to the actions I did not do.

What kind of boundary can I set when she does this? Can I just hang up/walk away? As a kid I had no choice but to bend to her accusations but as an adult this has grown tiring and does so much damage to our relationship. I've suggested that she record our conversations when we're having issues but she always refuses.

[zachira]

The most necessary boundary to have with your mother is to not take on her dysregulated emotions which she is blaming on you. We are very susceptible to feeling the emotions of other people when they are interacting with us. You are in no way to blame for how your mother feels inside. Limiting the interactions in amount of time spent with her and walking away before you feel overwhelmed by your mother are key. BPD is a disorder of being unable to manage emotions and looking for outside targets to feel temporary relief, though there is no real self soothing and the bottled up emotions tend to result in melt downs with no self control or awareness shown by the person with BPD no matter how much other people try to help.

[Notwendy]

This is similar to the triangle dynamics with my parents. I felt more of a parent-child connection to my father. Since he was the most stable parent, smart and logical, I assumed he'd also behave more logically when it came to conflicts with my BPD mother.

The dynamics between my parents were more complicated than I understood at the time. His role as rescuer/enabler- this was a part of it. I also wanted to have boundaries with her- but wasn't aware, at the time, why a boundary with her would result in a reaction from him. My first piece of advice is to learn, proceed carefully. You have already seen the (Karpman) dynamics- your mother takes on Victim perspective, Dad becomes rescuer, the two align against you.

There's a benefit to them in this situation. When two people are aligned against a common "enemy" - they are more stable. They aren't looking at their own issues. Dad is probably not consciously doing this to you. It's not even about you. It's the dynamics between them. If you look at it this way, you will see it with other people/situations. PwBPD tend to take Victim perspective, your father's role to her is Rescuer. With my BPD mother, someone, or something, seems to have "wronged" her in some way. Even if it's due to her own behavior- to her it's configured in a way that it's the other situation or person's fault. Dad's behavior was automatic- put out the conflict as soon as possible due to his own dynamics, take her side.

It's not possible to control my mother's behavior, so my father ( and yours) would go to us kids to diffuse the issues.

Being aware of these dynamics will help you to see this as less personal to you and so you will be able to react less emotionally to the situation.

Sometimes, (and it's possible your mother is doing this) a pwBPD will "bait" the other person to enter a conflict- say something hurtful. When the other person reacts, the drama and attention adds fuel to the drama and the dynamics.

Boundaries are important but boundaries are about ourselves. We can't control the other person but we can decide how to react when they cross a boundary. A good first step is to learn to be less emotionally reactive to your mother's antics and also to recognize the triangle and not step into it. This takes some work. For me, it was counseling and also 12 step ACA helps. ACA was designed for children of alcoholics but the behavior patterns in the family are similar to those where a parent has a disorder, and the other parents is in the role of enabler. Post here too and there's lots of people here to help share their experience, but in addition, the one on one with a counselor and ACA helps too.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, logic and reasoning don't work well countering emotion-oriented and self-oriented perceptions.  Also, there is seldom one single all-encompassing optimal response.

Probably another tactic in addition to the ones previously noted - especially awareness of the Karpman Triangle insight (victim, persecutor, rescuer) - is to cut short the drama.  And if your minor children are present then try to take them with you when you leave as you state you'll be back later after allowing the person to reset.  (If possible, children should not be exposed to the discord so they are not brought into the dispute to take sides.)

Knowing when to exit can be a part of our Boundaries. People with BPD traits (pwBPD) resist boundaries, often vehemently.  So Boundaries are instead for us in response to the other's poor behavior.

A simplistic example could be "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  (Trigger answered by insightful Response.)  Often an option is to exit for a while and let the intense incident fade a bit.

[CC43]

Hi there Victoria,

Well I see that you are familiar with the reality distortion field of pwBPD.  Let me guess, your mom will twist facts beyond recognition to make herself out to be a victim, blaming you or others for something?  That's classic BPD, I'm afraid.  Even innocuous comments or instances can trigger your mom.  It's like she's actively looking for slights and grievances everywhere.  And she will ruminate about them, seemingly without end.  If you challenge her with facts, she'll yell over you, change the details or completely change tack, dredging up yet another grievance.  Worst of all, she can't get over it.  She's like a broken record, correct?  Wait a second, that's not the worst of all.  The worst of all is when she accuses you or others of abuse, when in fact she was the abuser.  That's DARVO--Deny, Attack and Reverse Victim and Offender.

I have a few different ways to cope with this type of behavior.  One is to be as still and boring as a gray rock.  If your mom is like a broken record, it's because she gets a rise out of you paying attention to her, even if it is negative attention.  So try not to give her so much attention--just be silent.  The hope is that she runs out of steam or gets bored.  She can't argue with you if you don't argue back.  (If she demands a response from you, my stock reply is, "There's nothing more I can say that will make it any better."  It's hard to argue with that!)

Another strategy is to quietly exit the situation.  You might leave the room, or maybe you attend to a small task, like dusting or straightening up.  If you need to, make a small, neutral excuse, like "Gotta go check the laundry."  If she follows you, rinse and repeat.  With luck she'll get bored, as following you around might snap her out of it.  If you have to, say you have to use the bathroom.  I doubt she'd follow you there.

Another strategy I call the three strikes rule.  I start by saying something like, "We're not getting anywhere, so let's please change the topic or I'm going to have to leave/hang up."  If she continues, I'll give a second warning, like "This is stressing me out, so I'm leaving if you continue."  And if she continues once again, I'll say, "I'm going now, bye."  The point is, it was her choice whether to continue the conversation or not.  In addition, I make it about me and my stress, rather than directly "blame" her.  I try to be firm but kind.  If you do this a couple of times, you might see that she learns how to stop beating a dead horse.  You don't have to agree with what she says, but you do limit to how much baloney you'll listen to.

Remember, the boundaries are not about her, but about how you react to her.  Good luck.

[Methuen]

I'm trying to figure out an appropriate boundary with my mother. Nearly every time I do something to upset her, she will change the facts of the story to make my actions sound worse. I'm not sure why she does this, maybe she wants to justify her behavior when she has extreme reactions. She will make false accusations of me, change the order of events, or claim something never happened, always to make her look better and the other person worse. She will then tell her distorted version of the story to family members to seek sympathy or will scream and demand that I admit what I've done to her "or else".

This is the disease.  With the kindest intent, I would suggest that as long as you are meeting her with rational thinking, you will continue to be frustrated with these results.  Rational thinking doesn’t work with someone with BPD in my experience. Are you familiar with not JADEing on this website? Justify, argue, defend, explain? These are tools and strategies we use in rational conversations and debates.  But doing this with a pwBPD only escalates the drama and draws you into it like a fly into a flytrap.

I am curious by the first sentence “nearly every time I do something to upset her…” This sounds like you are taking ownership or responsibility for the problem, when the real problem is her perceived slights or triggers likely originating from her childhood history. 

I hope you know it’s not you. 

I often end up in several day long arguments with her while I stand my ground and field texts from my father telling me to "make things right" with her and how he's "shocked by my behavior". I always apologize for the hurt feelings that she has but do not admit to the actions I did not do.

Like others have said, your boundary is supposed to protect you.  It is not a rule for her to abide by.

So if these “days long arguements” are sucking the life energy out of you, a boundary could be to just not engage in the conversation.  By engaging with her, you are giving her more oxygen to behave like this.  You could say “I am not discussing this any more.  If you continue, I will leave.”  I do this with my mom. Once when my mom was at my house, I calmly went to my bedroom and closed the door, leaving her with my H, daughter, and FIL.  When I left the conversation, she stormed out of the house slammimg the back door so hard the whole house shook.  I do not feel safe with that kind of rage accompanied by her berbal attacks or slights against me, which is why I leave.

I held my boundary because it’s not possible to have a reasonable rational conversation with someone like that. 

At her house once, I calmly and quietly left after telling her I wasn’t going to discuss it and would leave if she continued. 

Your boundary is to protect you.

Also, why are you apologizing for her feelings?

I think it is correct to acknowledge her feelings.  Show you understand and care.  But apologizing for them just confirms to her that you acknowledge you are to blame.  Acknowledge them with empathy.  Support yes.  Apologize no.

H and I record these conversations with my mother.  We do it to have reminders that we are reasonable and she is not.  We have a record of evidence should we ever need it.  Legally or otherwise.  We do it to protect ourselves.  We also do it to share with our therapist as a continuous learning tool for how to navigate such a high conflict dysfunctional person.

We have never and will never share it with my mom.  That would be pouring gasoline on the fire, and contributes to the drama.

It sounds like you might wish for her to record these conversations so that she can hear the problem played back to her.  It’s like the evidence of her role in the problem.  That strategy just isn’t going to work because it involves reason.  She has an emotional brain and will feel invalidated by this, leading to more conflict. 

Boundaries the best and safest strategy. In the beginning, it’s very uncomfortable to use them. But if you stick with it, they work. When my mom recently started on a rant, I stated my boundary and she instantly dropped it.  She knew I would leave. Like nothing, she switched to a new topic, but it’s taken a lot to get to this point.  And I HATE having to do it.  Nobody should need to do that to feel safe from a mother.  But it works.

[Notwendy]

I am curious by the first sentence “nearly every time I do something to upset her…” This sounds like you are taking ownership or responsibility for the problem, when the real problem is her perceived slights or triggers likely originating from her childhood history. 

I hope you know it’s not you. 

In my experience- it's that "when I am in contact with my BPD mother she seems to perceive something I did or didn't do that upsets her" and "this kind of thinking isn't about me".

It's become more obvious now that she's elderly and has assistance as she does this with other people too.  It's sad for her that she doesn't seem to be able to see that people have good intentions and actually do care about her and aren't trying to do hurtful things.

As Methuen said- this is past trauma of some sorts and she replays it with someone else in the position of whowever did something hurtful. Whether or not the past trauma is real- did someone do something- or a result of her thinking - I don't know.

For your father, his role as rescuer- he feels like he can do something about this for her- help her feel better. It's possible he can in the moment, but it's not possible to change how someone thinks. If you can know that his reactions are as much a part of the dynamics- it will also help you to be less reactive when he asks you to "fix" things. But it's not in your power to change her too.

If you see it from his perspective- it's not just that he wants to make her happy- she's probably pushing him to do it. Dad would say things to me that I strongly suspect BPD mother pushed him to do it. Yes, he has choices too but when she wants something, she's relentless until she gets it. Eventually he agrees just to stop it. But this also reinforces her behavior.

Once you see this as dynamic, distorted thinking, and not about you, you are less likely to emotionally react to it. Not that it stops on your part, but you recognize it and you can self calm faster and not get into drama with her as much.

[HappyChappy]

I'm trying to figure out an appropriate boundary with my mother. Nearly every time I do something to upset her, she will change the facts of the story to make my actions sound worse. I'm not sure why she does this ..... to seek sympathy

Correct.  If she does have BPD then it's to keep the drama going, google "Trauma triangles" so she needs to a victim or savior, it keeps the attention on her, and key symptom of BPD is fear of abandonment. An appropriate boundary is one that lets you step out of the triangle. Sometimes you have no choice but to accept unfair blame, or walk away. If you defend she will rewrite history, as your mum needs to remain the victim to keep attention on her. Try changing the topic, or if it's really bad, let her know you'll leave (or hang up) if she won't drop it. Works with my Mum, but she then comes up with another drama not involving me, full of "alternative facts". Sounds like your mum just wants you to agree with her and / or wants a reaction. A lot of people use false accusations to get what they want - racism is based on that dynamic.

[victoria112]

Thank you all for your feedback, and forgive me for my delayed response. It's honestly been a bit overwhelming reading all of this. The idea that my mother could have BPD has been brought up to me for years by my therapist but it wasn't until a month ago when I picked up a couple of books that it all really clicked. It's been hard working through all of the guilt I've felt for dreading conversations and get-togethers with her, for hiding aspects of my life from her to avoid criticism, for setting any kind of boundary that seemed to always hurt her feelings.

I'm still trying to unprogram the lifetime of training I was given to apologize, roll over, and beg for forgiveness. I am the only one in my family who sets any kind of boundaries with her. My father blames himself for her behaviour and is probably her biggest target. My sibling mostly ignores and allows her overstepping because they feel that the consequences will be too severe otherwise.

I guess to a degree I do feel responsible when her feelings get hurt over what feels like nothing. I've grown up being told by her that I have no empathy, I'm an ice queen, I'm mean, horrible, ungrateful, etc. So I constantly fear that maybe I do deserve her wrath. She will portray it as an accumulation of anger towards me for little things that I've done year over year. Or exaggerate and change events, acting like I'm crazy for saying anything else happened. Even if I unintentionally hurt someone's feelings with my words or actions, I do always want to make it right. But with her, the punishment never fits the crime.

I guess maybe I don't know where to start. This last fight with her was the first one where I stood my ground and firmly but politely expressed my discontent with the way I was being treated by her. I walked out when she continued to scream over me. I ended calls and told her to speak to me when she was ready to be calm and respectful. And gave up chasing the idea that she would ever give any kind of meaningful apology for the hurtful things that she said or did during our argument. But now that I'm in the "after", I just don't know where to go. I don't know how to make a healthy relationship. It's been weeks since our fight and we've barely spoken outside of group interactions. I still don't look forward to seeing or speaking to her, but then I miss when we could have nice conversations. She mocks me for setting boundaries and accuses me of needing people to "speak to me with a script" when I ask to her communicate respectfully. If I ignore her, she will continue to try and bait me into fights with increasingly antagonizing statements. At this point, the only time she gets a rise out of me is when I'm exhausted by her antics. I guess my goal will be to end the communication before I get to this point.

She has made it clear that she still expects some type of "closure" from our last argument. I want to make sure I'm prepared for whatever she plans to throw it me.

[Notwendy]

I'm still trying to unprogram the lifetime of training I was given to apologize, roll over, and beg for forgiveness. I am the only one in my family who sets any kind of boundaries with her. My father blames himself for her behaviour and is probably her biggest target. My sibling mostly ignores and allows her overstepping because they feel that the consequences will be too severe otherwise.

I guess to a degree I do feel responsible when her feelings get hurt over what feels like nothing. I've grown up being told by her that I have no empathy, I'm an ice queen, I'm mean, horrible, ungrateful, etc. So I constantly fear that maybe I do deserve her wrath. She will portray it as an accumulation of anger towards me for little things that I've done year over year. Or exaggerate and change events, acting like I'm crazy for saying anything else happened. Even if I unintentionally hurt someone's feelings with my words or actions, I do always want to make it right. But with her, the punishment never fits the crime.

I guess maybe I don't know where to start. This last fight with her was the first one where I stood my ground and firmly but politely expressed my discontent with the way I was being treated by her.

I walked out when she continued to scream over me. I ended calls and told her to speak to me when she was ready to be calm and respectful. And gave up chasing the idea that she would ever give any kind of meaningful apology for the hurtful things that she said or did during our argument.
But now that I'm in the "after",

 I just don't know where to go. I don't know how to make a healthy relationship. It's been weeks since our fight and we've barely spoken outside of group interactions. I still don't look forward to seeing or speaking to her, but then I miss when we could have nice conversations.

She mocks me for setting boundaries and accuses me of needing people to "speak to me with a script" when I ask to her communicate respectfully. If I ignore her, she will continue to try and bait me into fights with increasingly antagonizing statements. At this point, the only time she gets a rise out of me is when I'm exhausted by her antics. I guess my goal will be to end the communication before I get to this point.

She has made it clear that she still expects some type of "closure" from our last argument. I want to make sure I'm prepared for whatever she plans to throw it me.

I highlighter certain statements to emphasize something. Your mother gets something out of these conflicts with you- getting you to back down, prove her point, wanting to "win".

The punishment doesn't fit the crime - I can relate to that. The smallest slight could be the crime of the century. My BPD mother has called me all kinds of things- but heaven help anyone who says anything back to her.

Have you heard the term "pissing in the wind"? Being angry at my mother, or saying anything back to her- it doesn't work. She doesn't process it. It comes back at you 10 fold in terms of insults.

It's not that saying what you said (in bold) is anything wrong- it's that if anyone says something remotely critical or makes a suggestion like that to BPD mother - to her, she feels insulted and will return it with more insults or a rage. You do not tell my mother what to do, or even ask her for a favor.

The idea is to decide what works. Talking to my mother about something that bothers me doesn't work. It doesn't resolve anything, and it ends up with a circular argument that seems to get worse.

BPD mother dislikes boundaries. She will persist at them and she can be relentless. So your feeling that your mother will push for an apology till you give in is probably right.

The way to avoid circular discussions is to grey rock. Give short, non emotional responses. You will learn to see when these discussions begin- your mother starts them by saying something to get a reaction from you. Keep in mind, these conflicts serve her in some way-she can be in victim mode, she can be "right". She can somehow feel better afterwards. A counselor called them "invitation to the crazy party". She can invite you to the crazy party but you don't have to attend.

"I don't know how to make a healthy relationship" . Truthfully, it's not possible. It's not possible to make a healthy relationship with someone who is not emotionally healthy. I think most of us here have tried to do this- because we wish we could do it. I know I tried- even became a doormat to BPD mother to try to smooth things over. It didn't work. She still has BPD. But this doesn't mean no relationship at all. It means we have one that is emotionally stable for us on our part to the best of our ability. It's going to involve accepting the situation for what it is, not what we wish it could be, and this includes some sadness and grief.

What your mother says does not define you. If she says it or thinks it- we can not change anyone's thinking but that doesn't make it true. She can say you have no empathy- you know that isn't true and she can't make it true. Stop "defending" what isn't true, stop reacting to it ( that may take some work).

If your mother is in victim perspective, something or someone will be at fault- and sometimes she will blame you. That doesn't make it true- it's how she thinks.

I think a good place to start is with your personal boundaries. It's hard to know "who we are" when we've grown up with someone defining us but one aspect of boundaries is to be secure in who we are. One idea a counselor told me is to substiture something absurd for the accusation. If your mother called you a pink elephant, would you get upset? Would you try to convince her you weren't one? No, because you are sure you aren't one. Now, do that with "no empathy". It's not true, it's her own thinking or she's just saying that.

What to do if she pushes you for an apology and won't let up ( and your Dad is doing it too. ) See this for what it is. It's their dynamics. The idea of validating the feelings but not the invalid. You can make an apology of some sorts just to stop this one episode. "I am sorry that your feelings were hurt" and let it go. Then, when there's  "invitation to the crazy party" - grey rock, respond with short no emotion statements. Don't defend yourself. These are actions on your part. Actions, not words back to her.

Also, remain secure with your own ethics with her. If you are speaking cordially, not saying mean or hurtful things, you aren't doing anything wrong- even if she says you are. If she says you are hurting her and you know you aren't being hurtful- then you know you aren't hurting her.

Sadly, in a way, this will create emotional distance from your mother and it will feel strange to you at first. One thing I realized was that drama is a part of how our family "connected" and reducing the drama felt distance. But I don't want to engage in that drama. The other likely outcome is that your father will "side with her". My BPD mother sees people as being on her side or not her side. I wasn't aware of BPD dynamics at the time I began to have boundaries with BPD mother. There was one time (Dad was critically ill at the time and it was stressful) and I just lost it and yelled at her. As you can imagine, this did not go well. So- I think a more subtle- going grey rock, less responses to her is  a suggested start.

[HappyChappy]

.... (a) and forgive me for my delayed response...
 
... (b) I'm still trying to unprogram the lifetime of training I was given to apologize, roll over, and beg for forgiveness. I am the only one in my family who sets any kind of boundaries with her.

...(c) being told by her that I have no empathy, I'm an ice queen,

...(b) I guess maybe I don't know where to start.

...(d) She has made it clear that she still expects some type of "closure" from our last argument. I want to make sure I'm prepared for whatever she plans to throw it me.

First point (a) no need to apologies.
(b) therapy focused on dealing with "narcisstic abuse" may help ?
(c) the evidence suggest otherwise, or you wouldn't be concerned about any of this.
(d) She will always find a way to keep this dynamic going, but you seem to be using considered best practice better (i.e. setting boundaries and avoiding becoming emotional , "ice queen") but other family members may unwittingly support this dynamic. You can't help someone with BPD until they accept a diagnosis and your mother may be too old for that. Sounds like her behaviour has always gotten her what she wants, so she has no incentive to change. You need to wait until others in the dynamic realise what's going on.  But the odds are against you being able to do that currently, time will heal. Often easier to do after someone dies. Sorry for being so blunt, call me an "Ice King" if you like 

[HappyChappy]

I do appreciate how difficult this must be for you, but with respect to your current issue, is doing nothing and going low contact an option ? Don't forget to show yourself empathy and protect against the damage of too much exposure to this can cause. 

If you must give her "closure" use models of communication like S.E.T. , or you're in danger of feeding the fire and playing her game. 

[CC43]

"She has made it clear that she still expects some type of "closure" from our last argument. I want to make sure I'm prepared for whatever she plans to throw it me."

Well that's ironic.  I doubt she wants closure at all, at least not closure in the traditional sense of making up and moving on.  What she wants is to keep the drama alive, to win, to be right, to make you PAY in some way.  Since you didn't bend to her will, and she didn't get what she wanted (as she usually does), she might pick a fight with you or give you the cold shoulder, thinking that will make you relent.  In fact, you might be on the lookout for an "extinction burst."  That's a colorful way of describing an increase in the intensity or duration of her outbursts when the customary reward--your attention, your groveling, etc.--is taken away.

Look, I have a loved one with BPD, and though she's gotten significantly better with therapy and medication, she still clings relentlessly to the victim narrative.  She thinks she wants "closure" with estranged family members who have supposedly aggrieved or abused her.  She can't see how her brain distorts facts, or how her own behavior was typically worse than what she's accusing her family members of.  She can't understand why her family members are unwilling to admit to (false) wrongdoings, when she doesn't show any signs of recognizing her own role in creating conflicts and blowing them out of proportion.  Like her distorted memory of past events, her notion of "closure" is lopsided, unfair and unrealistic.  Worse, she is liable to spew hatred and foul words at her family; she admits that she would likely spin out of control if she encountered her "abusers," in a moment of unusual self-awareness.  So how did my family deal with this?  We basically advised her, she's not ready for "closure."  She needs more time and more therapy.  In the meantime, she should concentrate on herself instead of obsessing about the past, which she can't change.  I must say, I think this outcome is the least bad one.

[Notwendy]

I don't think this is the best way to go about it- but if we remain conscious of our choices- "giving in" to lower the drama so we can reconfigure a boundary may be one strategy.

After one visit, when I was trying to get on the road, BPD mother said "I just need to tell you how much this visit upset me". Forget that I made the effort to drive to see her, stay in a hotel, run errands for her - she focused on one thing I did that supposedly upset her.

Somehow I got the sense she wanted to see some hurt there, I just let her see it. I made an exagerated apology, told her how sorry I was. It wasn't inauthentic- I really was sorry- sorry to see my efforts at doing something nice for her didn't seem to work.

A family member observed that on the last day of the visit, she tends to get critical and angry. Perhaps this is her way of dealing with her feeling upset we are leaving, and possibly projecting her feelings?

She did it again- called me up on the last day of the trip as I was packing the car, angry, and telling me I embarrased her somehow (I didn't do anything to do that).

So here's my boundary- I can only manage myself right? Emotionally for me, this is difficult. When this happens I feel upset when I drive home. I don't want to feel this way so what can I do? (I can't control her choices).

Next visit, I said goodbye the day before and told her I was getting up early to go on the road (I don't stay with her- I either stay with relatives or a hotel). I told her I would call her when I arrive home to let her know I got home OK. I told her I will not be taking any calls until I get home. (if she called I didn't pick up). Once I got home, I did call her, and she didn't get angry then.

It can be difficult to process what is going on when we are in the middle of it. If your BPD mother is pressuring you for an apology- one idea is to make one- to stop the situation temporarily until you can get yourself calmer. This isn't a good idea in the long run- because it enables the situation and it's not for the long term. She doesn't want closure- the drama suits her. She wants to "win" - but this may not be something you can "win". With my BPD mother, she can persist when she wants something. Sometimes we have to "choose our battles" until we learn another way to manage.

I like this "hole" poem. It's used with people with addictions, like AA but it works for dysfunction too. At the moment, you feel you are in the hole. Your task is to get yourself out of this hole as best you can, with what you know how. You may fall in again but eventually you are going to see the pattern and the "hole" up ahead and try something different. Sometimes we fall in the hole anyway - it's OK, we are human, but we learn what to do if we do fall in it.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/95085-i-walk-down-the-street-there-is-a-deep-hole

[victoria112]

Thank you to everyone who gave me tips here, we ended up having the "closure conversation" and it was exactly what everyone said...an excuse to keep the drama alive.

The way to avoid circular discussions is to grey rock. Give short, non emotional responses.

What to do if she pushes you for an apology and won't let up ( and your Dad is doing it too. ) See this for what it is. It's their dynamics. The idea of validating the feelings but not the invalid. You can make an apology of some sorts just to stop this one episode. "I am sorry that your feelings were hurt" and let it go.

I definitely gave this a go during our conversation. The irony is that I have apologized for all of these things countless times. The problem comes from her expecting me to apologize for things that I didn't do. For example, I made a comment to her that offended her. I apologized that I hurt her feelings with the comment and told her it was never my intention to make her feel bad. She responds that it's not a real apology because I didn't admit to "saying it with hostility" which would then perpetuate her idea that I said this comment intentionally, to cause her harm. I will not do this.

The grey rock strategy definitely works to put me in a calm steady place to be able to take the verbal beating. Ironically, it just makes her more angry! I get more ice queen comments, told that I clearly don't care, etc. But I also know that nothing I do will be right. If I have an angry reaction, I'm defensive. An emotional reaction and I'm attention seeking and vilifying her. A compassionate, calm reaction, I'm being condescending and manipulative. No reaction, I don't love her.

You can't help someone with BPD until they accept a diagnosis and your mother may be too old for that. Sounds like her behaviour has always gotten her what she wants, so she has no incentive to change.

This is 100% the case. She refuses to see any kind of mental health professional because she believes she can learn all of that herself. She's a huge armchair psychologist, has gone through spurts of accusing everyone in our family of being narcissists, then having autism. She has read all kinds of books about different therapeutic methods like DBT and CBT but she wouldn't be able to apply them to herself if her life depended on it.

Image is also incredibly important to her, so she would never admit to someone outside of her circle that she was struggling.

I do appreciate how difficult this must be for you, but with respect to your current issue, is doing nothing and going low contact an option ?

I've considered this but it just feels so extreme. Ironically my lack of involvement and communication with her is the main thing she's been coming at me for lately. I know if I reduced contact with her, I'd have to prepare to lose contact with my father too.

"She has made it clear that she still expects some type of "closure" from our last argument. I want to make sure I'm prepared for whatever she plans to throw it me."

Well that's ironic.  I doubt she wants closure at all, at least not closure in the traditional sense of making up and moving on.  What she wants is to keep the drama alive, to win, to be right, to make you PAY in some way.

Yes! I really had been avoiding any conversation with her but she reached out to inform me of a family emergency and used that to segue into her rant about me. Ironically, she started by asking me to "be calm and open minded, to avoid getting defensive" which is exactly what I did, and it made her so angry. Her whole point was that I NEVER apologize. That I don't know how, because when I give a sincere apology, I don't mention the fabricated details in my apology. She was bringing up issues that we've put to bed from 2 years ago, 5 years ago, even 10 years ago! Now suddenly, I never apologized and I need to do it right now. Of course I had apologized, she never would have let it go if I didn't. Although looking back at the events listed, I never actually owed her one. I've set a boundary with her that I will not discuss issues from the past. It's a tactic she's used to be emotional abusive. "You're a liar, you've always been a liar since you were a little girl, when you were 8 years old....." nope, nope, nope. I won't do it anymore.

When I asked her what she was hoping to acomplish with our conversation (as suggested by my therapist) she couldn't answer. She mocked me for asking, accused me of playing games with her.

I don't think this is the best way to go about it- but if we remain conscious of our choices- "giving in" to lower the drama so we can reconfigure a boundary may be one strategy.

I'm a bit nervous about this because historically I haven't held my boundaries well. I've given in when she made me feel guilty, or pushed too far, or had other things on her plate. But let's be honest, she ALWAYS has something on her plate to make her a victim. I know the only reason she's still pushing this issue is because I'm cutting off the train of verbal and emotional abuse before she's satisfied. This was probably the calmest of the conversations we've had since our big blowup but she was still manufacturing new accusations of me, and some of them were shockingly creative!

I did not hold my boundary of ending the call when she became abusive. Again, I felt pity for all of the things she'd been going through outside of our argument and gave her a pass. And naturally, after the stream of vitriol, she made a passing comment about how I should know how hard she's had it lately, how she's barely eaten or drank anything today, etc. Because she would never apologize for the things that she does.

She does seem to be getting it, but I just don't know when I'm going too far with boundaries. Most of her insults don't actually hurt me anymore but I know that I don't deserve to listen to that. I know she's TRYING to hurt me. I question if it's appropriate to just hang up when someone's yelling at me. Do I state my boundary before we begin talking? Do I state it after the yelling starts?

[Notwendy]

 I know if I reduced contact with her, I'd have to prepare to lose contact with my father too.

Yes, exactly. I did naively step in with boundaries. The consequence was the relationship with my father. I didn't think that was possible. Your father may care about you - and I think mine did too- but if BPD mother was angry at me, her wishes and feelings prevail.

This is a tough situation. I don't regret having boundaries. I wonder though, if I knew more about BPD dynamics- could this have gone a different way? I thought maybe it could, but I don't know.

BPD mother was angry at me during the time my father passed away. She didn't seem to want any connection to me, then later did- which is part of her push pull. What changed then was the triangle. I also began doing ACA and 12 step work. Does she ever say or do hurtful things? Yes she does but they also over time, seem to have less emotional power. Because she sees herse;f in victim mode- if I interact with her- something seems to cause this for her, even when it's not intended, and even when there is nothing, she will make it into something. She seems to come up with something to blame me for. Even if I can "make something OK" she will then find something else.

I have had to really stay solid with my own ethics. I do the best I can (I'm human, humans don't always get it right- but I know I am trying and that's all anyone can do). I don't choose to do hurtful things to her but if she sees something that way, I can't change that.

Sometimes it's so obviously absurd. She was having work done on her house near a bookcase. I had just done something similar and forgot to cover a shelf and there was construction dust over everything and it was a clean up job. I made a comment to her about this and said "better cover that bookcase so the same thing doesn't happen for you".

She had an angry outburst. Somehow, she took this comment as me telling her to climb up the bookcase ( I didn't mean that - she could have someone do it for her) or giving her an order, or assuming she didn't know any better- but whatever it was - she started yelling "how dare you think I should climb up on top of the bookcase" (she's elderly, I think it's obvious I wouldn't want her to do that).

There is no giving someone the benefit of the doubt. When talking to family members, I think we make an assumption that we have their best interest in mind. This isn't there. She assumes someone has the intent to do something hurtful to her. Unfortunately, I can not change what she thinks. I can know my intentions. I didn't intend to do or say anything hurtful. I have to just know that.

[HappyChappy]

This is 100% the case. She refuses to see any kind of mental health professional ... narcissists, then having autism.

Undiagnosed autism often leads to someone using the same behavior as someone with NPD. Diagnosis is often the only way for someone with Asperger to become self aware. So here again, healing begins with a diagnosis and self awareness.