Tips on Couples Therapy

[alreadygold]

She has her masters in nursing...no reason that I can see that she can't make easily as much as me.     She now believes she has narcopepsy...so may use that as to a reason she can't work.   Honestly, could be insomnia from untreated bipolar....

[PeteWitsend]

She has her masters in nursing...no reason that I can see that she can't make easily as much as me.     She now believes she has narcopepsy...so may use that as to a reason she can't work.   Honestly, could be insomnia from untreated bipolar....

nope, no reason they can't work except their BPD issues, which make them "responsibility-avoidant."

they'll do anything to avoid having to cook, clean, work, parent their kids, etc.  so that's why it's important you ensure a minimum of "entangling" factors in the decree that could give her leverage post-divorce.  

It's of course impossible to foresee every outcome and prevent it, but some predictable ones are around kids' education, housing, and jobs.  For example, if she has the sole right to designate kids' schooling, she may threaten to pull the kids out of a good school and put them in a lousier school if you don't do XYZ or agree to pay her for something.  Ditto with housing issues.

Impress this concern upon your attorney as well, namely that you feel you need to fight for certain rights to ensure more stability, or you'll just end up back in court.  

[alreadygold]

any tips on literally not being able to be in the same room or even a room or two away from her?

My first thought is avoidance, but then I find she is controlling where i go or who I interact with in the house.   I guess try and live as normal life as possible day to day taking care of myself and the kids, but that means literally NOT talking or interacting with her.   Just the morning i heard her in the kitchen and refrained from going up to get my coffee until she had left....then kind of kicked myself by letting her sickness control my actions....what to do...

[ForeverDad]

Separate rooms is an actual option when in mediation, even in settlement conferences with lawyers present.*  Court almost surely won't allow separate rooms in official hearings.

* Each state has rules on whether or not a lawyer can be present in mediation.  Ask your lawyer.  If your state doesn't allow it, you can always ask for a break and then when outside you can call the lawyer or other trusted individual for input.

My court ordered up to three mediation attempts.  As with many of us, my mediation failed on the first session, my spouse was too entitled and too deep in her black/white perceptions to listen even to the mediator.

Notice that I wrote "attempts".  You do not have to be the one to give and give endlessly in order for mediation to result in a settlement.  Mediation is an attempt to resolve differences without the added cost and time of a lengthy divorce case.

If the other is like the proverbial irresistible force, then you likely will need to be a brick wall (boundaries, limits and time-tested strategies).

[alreadygold]

Thanks --I meant more at home.     Keep telling myself, she is sick, ignore and go about life, but its not quite that simple.  Literally she goes into a dysregulated look when I enter the room she is in....its scary and not healthy..but I'm going to have to figure out a way..other than changing my location and what I'm doing based on her, but i dont want that.

[PeteWitsend]

any tips on literally not being able to be in the same room or even a room or two away from her?

My first thought is avoidance, but then I find she is controlling where i go or who I interact with in the house.   I guess try and live as normal life as possible day to day taking care of myself and the kids, but that means literally NOT talking or interacting with her.   Just the morning i heard her in the kitchen and refrained from going up to get my coffee until she had left....then kind of kicked myself by letting her sickness control my actions....what to do...

How long do you think the situation is going to continue?  I don't think there's really any good way to manage this, you just have to get through it until one of you is out of the home.  Hopefully it's not for too much longer.  

Just be sure to protect yourself... when they sense things really are ending, they can become more volatile.  Think along the lines of making false allegations to get you arrested, or outright violence or otherwise just more heated arguments than usual.  Record all conversations on your phone or get a VAR, and take any other precautions you can think of that might be needed.  Don't let her destroy records, take things you need, loot bank accounts, etc.

In the last week of my marriage, things went from cold avoidance/silent treatment, to screaming at me in the middle of the night (I was sleeping in a different bedroom & started locking the door after that), to hysterical crying that it was ending, to later begging me to reconsider, of course, without any self-awareness of the things she had been saying, names she had called me, etc.  Like the five stages of grief all out of order and repeating themselves randomly...

[alreadygold]

Well she mentioned i will be getting papers at the first of the month....and it would be a long, messy, expensive divorce.

I'm guessing I have 4-6 months at a minimum to do this.    I'm going to just try and live as normal as possible, and ignore every aspect of her outside of things needed for the kids.   I floated the idea of her moving into an apt as this worked out, but there looks to be no way she would entertain that.   Just stinks because my safe space from her is down stairs in the basement in the movie-room, but it ends up being just me in there with the kids upstairs and I feel that isolation and disfunction down there in "hiding"..but I NEED a break from her presence.

[PeteWitsend]

Well she mentioned i will be getting papers at the first of the month....and it would be a long, messy, expensive divorce.

I'm guessing I have 4-6 months at a minimum to do this.    I'm going to just try and live as normal as possible, and ignore every aspect of her outside of things needed for the kids.   I floated the idea of her moving into an apt as this worked out, but there looks to be no way she would entertain that.   Just stinks because my safe space from her is down stairs in the basement in the movie-room, but it ends up being just me in there with the kids upstairs and I feel that isolation and disfunction down there in "hiding"..but I NEED a break from her presence.

have you considered moving out and renting something?  talk to your attorney first, but it might be worth it, to get some physical space pending the outcome of the divorce proceedings

I couldn't imagine trying to live with BPDxw while we were in the process of divorcing.  I needed physical distance between us, although I did stay relatively close to the home for kids' sake.  

In my case, it didn't affect anything; I allowed her to stay in the home (her mother was also living with us) and felt like I would've had a hard time in court arguing I should get it, given there was just me, and I was the non-custodial parent.  Though, in my case, she could afford the mortgage payments easily when child support was factored in.  She had to pay me half of the equity in the home.  

I still kinda got shafted (she had to sign over her 401K to me to make up the difference in cash), and should've objected that a 401K is not as good as cash in the bank.  MY attorney should've objected actually, but he really dropped the ball.  

[ForeverDad]

Have you consulted family law attorneys yet?  Have you pondered their court experience and recommended strategies?

If you had filed first, you likely would be reasonable with needed temporary arrangements.  With BPD traits in the mix, what her filing would be would be much worse.

There are a few states that require a waiting period before proceeding with a divorce, with the goal to give time to reconcile.  But most states start with a temp order that is very basic and minimal.  Since court is somewhat structured along adversarial lines (plaintiff vs defendant) most of us were required to live separate from the other parent and the kids would be driven back and forth between the two residences.

My court (some two decades ago) was clearly preferential to mothers.  While she was facing Threat of DV charges in another county court, family court issued a temp order gifting her custody and majority time.  It took two years before the final decree changed that initial order.  For whatever reason, court and lawyers left that temp order unchanged.  A temp order that lasted two years, in my mind, is not a temporary order, but of course no one listened to me.

So my encouragement is for you not to sit on your hands and wait passively.  Be proactive.  Decide which lawyer would be best for you, work up some strategies to handle predictable unrealistic allegations and terms.  Will she demand 99% parenting time, full custody and all your money as support?  Will she allege you're a danger and seek to have you be supervised on your parenting time?

Of course, she won't get everything requested, but you want to walk out with the best ("least bad") temp order possible... because you and the kids will probably have to live with it for far longer than you expect.

Meanwhile, monitor your finances.  Don't put all your paychecks in a joint household account, keep some protected in a personal account.  It's not unknown for joint accounts to be raided, credit cards overspent and you're left with nothing to pay the bills.

[EyesUp]

Bring $425 cash for an hour consult

Probably a day late and a dollar (or 425) short, but...

When connecting with prospective attys, indicate that your interviewing for a potential fit for your case, rather than requesting an initial consult.

You'll often find that attys will provide the first :30 mins at no cost in order to win a new client, and have a substantially similar discussion in the process.

In my case, I interviewed many attys in the area and never paid for the initial call.  After the first 3 calls or so, I figured out how to distill my story and "asks" and was able to cut to the chase - ultimately, I identified right atty for me based on a referral from another atty who said "I know exactly who you need and it's not me..."

If your case is anything like mine was, you need a litigator, not a negotiator - that means an atty who regularly litigates, knows how to manage a high conflict case, knows how the judges in your county tend to rule, and doesn't hesitate to put this knowledge to use.

A lot of folks will recommend mediation.  That's a great option for reasonable people.

You need to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and that means finding an atty who knows how to shut down sideshows quickly rather than allowing them to spiral out of control.

A lot of attys like cases like ours because they have a lot of sideshows and do spin out of control - which tends to rack up a lot of billable time.

Last point for now:  It's a rare atty who actually develops a strategy.  Most tend to let the story evolve organically and react passively as information is presented.  How to avoid falling into the trap of prolonged conflict (and maximum billable time)?    YOU need to manage your case.

That means YOU need to consider what you want the outcome to be.  YOU need to read up on alimony and child support guidelines in your state - run the simulators and figure out what's reasonable.  YOU need to carefully consider division of assets and what's important and what's not, and what to focus on.  YOU need to brief your atty - concisely - on points that may become relevant interrogatories or other points of leverage.

Preparing for your D can become a parttime job.  Don't use your atty as a therapist (super expensive and zero benefit), and don't be long-winded re-telling stories about every irrational thing your stbx has done.  

Do build a concise timeline of recent history.  Do prepare for false allegations.  Do keep a concise journal and document who/what/when from this point forward - imagine the audience is the judge in your case.  When I say concise, I mean super concise... no judge is going to read a long narrative account of anything, but a notebook that concisely documents a pattern of outbursts may help diffuse or at least reframe a false DV claim... for example.

Hang in there.

[alreadygold]

I have a second meeting with another lawywer next week.

With regard to reasonable...In our state....seems it pretty much comes down to a predefined calculation for alimony penalizing the main income winner (me).
Also seems that even 50/50 custody, I will be on the hook for additional child support...in the thousands per month on top of alimony.
This would be a huge loss....and wreck my and the kids current life situation.

The kids would all state they want to live with me, so I need to find out what those chances are, but I'm told that it will be very hard to get sole custody.

I'm chalking up half the assets and my retirement as a given to her.  I guess the only positive I see is fighting for enough custody where I'm not paying another large amount.   A large Alimony and half the assets to her are pretty much a given.

Will see what lawyer #2 can see as possible outcomes.   Not sure how much is worth fighting for if shes guaranteed to get half and me paying out huge on top of it...

[ForeverDad]

When you sit down to play a card game, do you let the others know exactly which cards you have?  No.  Do you discard your best cards?  No.

Similarly, you go into negotiations with some things held in reserve.  In other words, you don't make your best offer first because you know the other's response will be "more".

Also, don't bid against yourself.  If the other doesn't respond, don't automatically offer more.  And if you do make an offer, it would be wise to consider setting a time limit so it can expire.

I'm sure you know already know the above, I'm just making sure it gets said.

All your children are teenagers or grown.  That means neither of you have much leverage to say, "I have to feed the children and wash their clothes and clean their rooms and put them to bed."  They're not babies, toddlers, preschoolers, etc.  And this is not an excuse for your spouse to avoid getting a job, not that she would get one anyway.

[EyesUp]

In my state, alimony and CS may be calculated independently and together

It turned out that my uBPDxw's best option was to max out CS and skip alimony.

If she accepted alimony, it would have reduced the CS payment and the net payment would have been less.

Every case is different and most states are different, so you need to learn the options for your state.  Also, there are no rules - some people settle, some people fight tooth and nail for every penny.  Some people pay less than the guidelines, some people pay more.  Some do it voluntarily, some do it under a judge's orders.

Figure out what's important to you, what's important to your stbx, and build a framework for negotiation.  Your atty can't/won't do it for you because they don't really know you or your stbx, and because most attys let settlement proposals emerge from the parties rather than trying to move things along.

You are the general manager of your case - your atty works for you.  Not the other way around.

When interviewing attys, ask for concrete examples of how they resolved a high conflict case where one of the parties may have had a PD.  What was the strategy?  How did it play out?  Was there prior experience with the judge in the case?   Were kids involved?  What were the ages?

Good luck.

[ForeverDad]

When interviewing attys, ask for concrete examples of how they resolved a high conflict case where one of the parties may have had a PD.  What was the strategy?  How did it play out?  Was there prior experience with the judge in the case?   Were kids involved?  What were the ages?

I divorced nearly two decades ago.  For what it's worth, no one - not the lawyers, not the court, not the Custody Evaluator, not the GAL (Guardian ad Litem for children) - ever ventured into mental health issues.  The most I could get out of my lawyer is, "Your ex is crazy!"  From what the posts reveal, not much has changed since then.  So don't count on the court-associated professionals to deal with the 'crazy' unless they really have to.  Court's do NOT try to fix the litigants.  Imitate that perspective.  Do what the courts do, focus on the nuts and bolts of the case, the documentation, the evidence, and especially the minor children.

[EyesUp]

Great insight, @FD.

I should have added:  My suggestion about how to interview an atty for a high conflict case is not to identify a silver bullet / unicorn atty...  rather, it's to assess how the atty approaches a high conflict scenario and if there is a fit. 

Do they redirect and avoid the question?   Or do they come back with advice similar what's posted here?   i.e., focus on the best interests of the kids.