Punishment for betrayal

[PeteWitsend]

...
That's a good point. A follow-up question/thought - when transparency is not an alternative, how much should you think about what you do, so you don't have to lie so much... It's hard to have a normal rs-attitude like "I will be faithful" when everything is so out of balance. It's not like I stay away from porn because I want us to be exclusive to each other, it's because I'm not sure how I would stay mentally sane if I had to lie about it. Also since it really is her biggest fear, it would feel a bit evil to betray her trust with that...

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I think at some point you have to draw some boundaries for your own sanity.  E.g.: "I'm going to watch TV and there's going to be sexual things on there sometimes.  But we're both adults and I'm not going to live a G-rated life because you're an insecure control freak, so shut up and deal with it."  (or however you want to say it )

And then call out all her inevitable attempts to step over the line and violate this boundary. 

There's kind of a "To be or not to be" conundrum here; do you look at this as such a minor thing that you concede to buy yourself some peace?  Or do you draw a line and fight to maintain the boundary out of concern you're heading into a "bottomless pit" situation where she keeps demanding you give up more and more of yourself because the problem is actually in her head and has nothing to do with you or your actions?

I think agreeing to stop looking at actual pornography is reasonable, and how do you really defend that, assume she's not also looking at porn?  but then like you say later, "anything with a sexual undertone" could be a lot of things.  Where do you draw the line?

Maybe you could try mentioning your concern as part of it, e.g. "I stopped looking at porn because you asked me to, but this is ridiculous and I don't like it.  I'm not going to live like that.  If you don't want to watch this movie/TV show, go do something else."

I remember one time watching a kids show with my daughter.  I think it was Sesame Street, and there was a cute female host for a couple skits.  BPDxw came in the room, and said something like I was only watching because of the girl there, in a snarky tone, and it's like "OH COME ON."  Should I have turned it off and not let my daughter watch?  Should I have left the room?  I'm now, as a grown man, not allowed to watch a kids' show because the content is too risque for me, but not a 2-year-old?  Absurd the things they demand we put ourselves through. 

However, recently she's made it quite clear that porn to her is anything with a sexual tone. I now turn my head if I see anything with a sexual undertone if she's there - I feel super weird because I don't know where to look half of the time. Makes it all the more tempting when she's not around.

...

Just like an abuser wants... keeping you insecure and afraid. 

[zachira]

Being told not to do something can make a person want to do it. I learned this when I was working with large groups of students. If I told them my expectations in an affirmative statement they usually complied. If I told them I didn't want them to do certain things, they usually did. It was like I was saying I expect you to do this when I said not to do it. It seems how your wife is telling you what she wants, is leading you to look for other outlets from so much frustrating disrespectful communication on her part. Most men enjoy looking at attractive women however refrain from this behavior when with their significant other. There are certain ways the opposite sex cannot behave when in the presence of the other.

[PeteWitsend]

Being told not to do something can make a person want to do it. I learned this when I was working with large groups of students. If I told them my expectations in an affirmative statement they usually complied. If I told them I didn't want them to do certain things, they usually did. It was like I was saying I expect you to do this when I said not to do it. It seems how your wife is telling you what she wants, is leading you to look for other outlets from so much frustrating disrespectful communication on her part. Most men enjoy looking at attractive women however refrain from this behavior when with their significant other. There are certain ways the opposite sex cannot behave when in the presence of the other.

That's interesting.  The thought occurred to me - both here, and remembering how BPDxw behaved toward me - that on some level, she actually wanted me to do the things she was accusing me of, so she could: 1) loudly note that she was right after all, which she found personally gratifying; and 2) further beat me up for being a bad ungrateful cheater, and all the things she'd accuse me of in anger, regardless of whether they had any basis in reality. 

It's one thing to refrain from looking at porn though, and another to fear going out in public because you might accidentally notice an attractive member of the opposite sex, and this will trigger your disordered partner. 

I don't know if there's really a way to avoid constant fights if your BPD partner is sensitive to this issue.  Every public social situation is a potential minefield.  In my own experience, it didn't really matter who I was talking to or interacting with; if BPDxw didn't like that woman, she would make up accusations out of whole cloth... I was "staring at this woman with my mouth open and my tongue out while everyone shook their heads in disgust..." Really?  I'm so stupid I was doing that, and didn't realize it?  Or I recall a time my friend's cousin asked me to hand her a beer at a BBQ, and I made the mistake of doing that before I finished getting BPDxw a drink.  That got brought up over and over again for several weeks after that, along with every unhinged accusation you could imagine.  And I'm sure if we ever saw that person again, no matter how much time had passed, it would be "front page news" in our relationship. 

You start to freak out and fear having friends or going out in public, and that's just no way to live.   

[ForeverDad]

I did what she wanted me to with the IG thing and now everything's fine, for a few days I guess. To begin with, the IG-issue was a spin-off from the Spotify request. And that was only a week ago. I'm sure when the relief from the positive outcome she got from the IG-fight wears of, she'll think of something.

Sadly, past experience indicates there will be something else demanded of you, probably sooner than later.

I now turn my head if I see anything with a sexual undertone if she's there - I feel super weird because I don't know where to look half of the time...

My mind feels so twisted in all directions I just feel that I'd need some rest.

Been there, experienced that.  It was in the final couple years of my marriage.  I suspect there will be one of two outcomes... either your marriage breaks or you break.  Neither is a happy option but better for you to recover and thus be a whole person so you can parent afterward.  After all, you will always be a parent, nothing will change that.

[Anonymous22]

My uBPDh has similar issues, I can't tell you the number of times that I have been accused of having an affair or the completely far fetched "reasons how he knew".  To name a few just to see the craziness...because I wore a white tank top to work instead of a black tank top, because the window screen in the basement was put in backwards, because I didn't turn the light on in the laundry room when I was doing laundry when it was the middle of the day and the blinds were open, because I came home from work with my hair in a ponytail, because I had a flip flop tan on my feet in the middle of the summer and I wear flip flops daily, etc.  But here is the kicker...we went to his work Christmas party one year.  We were chatting with his co-workers and their spouses, this was a couple of years into our relationship so I knew how he was, so like you, I always looked down when a male would try to communicate with me.  His boss, who was from out of town, came over to chat with my h and I.  After a little bit, it was pretty much just the 2 of them talking and I needed to go to the bathroom, so I excused myself to go do so.  There was someone in the restroom when I got there and one person in front of me.  Like a normal person, I waited for my turn, used the restroom and then went back to the table.  When I got back, my h was distant and couldn't even look at me.  He told everyone that we needed to get home to our kids, though it was very odd timing as the boss was just about to give his talk.  As we walk out, me confused as can be, the boss...and every other co-worker we passed...said bye to us.  I responded, but my h did not.  When we got outside he took off to the car, I had no idea what was going on.  It finally came out that he "knew that I was having an affair with his boss".  Apparently, he and his boss ended their conversation not much after I went to the restroom and while I was waiting go to the restroom and the boss was out talking to other employees, my h was convinced that he and I were in the rest room having an affair and when his boss said "bye" when we left it was just to me and was code of something! We have never gone to a work party of his again and if there is a work event, he goes alone, he will not even tell me about it unless it will affect something that I have asked him to do!  I say this to show how crazy this stuff can get.  We all have our crazy stories.  I struggle daily with this.  What I have decided to do is tell myself that their crazy crap is THEIR crazy crap and not mine to pick up.  I know that they will escalate when you don't pick it up, but if you do pick it up you are just going to have another hoop to jump through that is just as hard as the escalation, it will never end.  I find it hard to do so, cause like you, I was taught by my h to look down when a male came anywhere in my vicinity and to not talk to them, but felt crazy just ignoring people, I don't watch much tv but if I did and good looking people were on tv I would change the channel, I got rid of my social media account, I tried to only interact with team mom's instead of the male coaches, but then I got told that I liked women, so I just started to look down all of the time and only communicate when essential.  Until I realized that I am doing NOTHING wrong, this is HIS issue.  I started with walking away when he would start in on me, its really hard, but I try hard to hold my head high in every situation in life weather my h is there or not, though I do catch myself and almost always feel like my heart is going to pound out of my chest when in situations where I have to communicate with a male and my h is around.  The accusations have lessoned over time, they are still there and crazy as ever, but at least I can be me.        

[ForeverDad]

As a disclaimer, I am a voracious reader, I grew up on Sci-Fi books by IsaacAsimov (aka Paul French), Robert Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, etc.  Early Sci Fi was called space opera with many authors carrying the same heroes and heroines across multiple books.  Examples are Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx, Robert Asprin's hilarious Phule's Company, Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan saga, E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen, A.E. Van Vogt's Slan, E.C. Tubb's Dumarest of Terra, and more.

I was reading a series this past week by Jack Campbell that reminded me of this thread, Destiny's Way was the second volume of The Doomed Earth series.  Of course, the quote below does not reflect the specific scenario dealt with in this thread since the novel concerns an unlikely hero in Earth's space force over 100 years in the future and an as unlikely heroine.

As one quote by Mark Twain goes, "history doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes."  I noticed a rhyme here.

"Seriously, Kayl, you were a lot more hesitant when we first met. Like, you knew what you should do, but expected to get hammered for it. It made you cautious."
"Earth Guard had me beaten down." He smiled. "I guess someone changed me, though. She gave me back everything I'd lost and then some." - page 344

[15years]

Thank you all so much for sharing!

One thing I have noticed too is when the response is not 100 % what she'd want, she will make me (or try to make me) feel guilty, immature, wrong etc.

Like yesterday, she drew a comparison between me and a spoiled character in a novel, and further said that "maybe you will grow more into this other character when you mature. This wasn't meant as criticism, more like a statement of facts. Because I didn't like what she was saying,  she said I tried to take away her reality by reacting like I did. Well, I wasn't up for a fight so I withdrew.

This is just a less dramatic example of how what I do or say will cause a reaction that feels "not worth it". Standing up to myself can leave me confused, so it's better to avoid.

If anyone wants to share stories related to this, I'd like to read. I mean stories where you stood up for yourself but ultimately it just hurt you because you "lost the second round".

[Pook075]

If anyone wants to share stories related to this, I'd like to read. I mean stories where you stood up for yourself but ultimately it just hurt you because you "lost the second round".

My ex-wife was notorious for getting a few days off, laying around the house all day playing on her phone, and maybe straightening up the kitchen a little and putting laundry in the washer.

I'd walk into the kitchen, see a sink full of dishes, and start to wash them.

She'd come in and say, "I'm almost finished with the kitchen, I got busy and will finish them later."

There's many things wrong with that sentence- she wasn't busy, the kitchen wasn't almost finished, she wouldn't finish them later, and the only reason she's saying something is because she feels guilty.

So I'd say something like, "It's not a problem, I'll finish them up real quick."  I wanted to say something completely different, but it would have gone badly if I did.

My ex would respond with, "You ALWAYS say I don't do anything around here and you NEVER realize how hard I bust my ass."

Well, I didn't say any of that...she's creating it in her own mind.  But I also work from home, and my office is right next to the bedroom where she'd be on social media all day long.  So I know what she did- maybe 15 minutes worth of work and 10 hours of goofing off.

At this point, I'd get drawn into the argument because I just couldn't keep my composure any longer.  It was continually the same accusation, how I always put her down and never see how hard she works.

I tried many different methods, ranging from asking her what she did that day, to walking through the house and pointing out her messes everywhere, to showing her WiFi data and how she used 9 gigs that afternoon.  I was so fed up of not being able to have a clean house- even if I tried to do the cleaning, it still ended up in the same war.

Today though, I realize that my ex wife acted that way because she knew she was lazy (due to depression/mental illness) and felt threatened.  I could have complimented her and say that I understood how difficult her job was, I could have told her that she deserved a break and I wanted her to relax a little....I could have taken so many disarming, validating paths since I knew where her disordered thinking was stemming from.

I was honestly just as much of the problem as she was, simply because I didn't know how to focus on her emotions and validate how she was feeling in the moment.  A few kind words could have changed everything back then.

[PeteWitsend]

Thank you all so much for sharing!

One thing I have noticed too is when the response is not 100 % what she'd want, she will make me (or try to make me) feel guilty, immature, wrong etc.

Like yesterday, she drew a comparison between me and a spoiled character in a novel, and further said that "maybe you will grow more into this other character when you mature. This wasn't meant as criticism, more like a statement of facts. Because I didn't like what she was saying,  she said I tried to take away her reality by reacting like I did. Well, I wasn't up for a fight so I withdrew.

This is just a less dramatic example of how what I do or say will cause a reaction that feels "not worth it". Standing up to myself can leave me confused, so it's better to avoid.

If anyone wants to share stories related to this, I'd like to read. I mean stories where you stood up for yourself but ultimately it just hurt you because you "lost the second round".

I don't think it's helpful to look at this as winning and losing.  Every time you don't stand up for yourself, you're establishing how you're going to let the pwBPD treat you.  Each time is another brick in the building, so to speak.  Don't lose sight of the forest (the dynamic between you) because you're focusing on the trees (who "wins" and who "loses" in an argument).  If you're unhappy in this relationship, look at yourself and consider your needs and your wants, and think about how you get there.  Unfortunately, when a pwBPD is part of the equation - especially when they're more of an extreme there - I understand there's not a lot of room for yourself in the relationship, but it's up to you to determine what you can live with and what your needs are and work to establish that. 

This is all under the "Three Pillars" section of the "Setting Boundaries...https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries" link on this site.

Sure, it's prudent to "pick your battles," and maybe there are things you don't need to fight over.  Like if you know she's lazy and won't do housework, you pick up the slack and don't remind her of it each time.  But if you're just looking for ways to avoid doing anything because she might escalate, well, then you need to mentally prepare yourself for enduring more of the same in the long run, and understand your own role in that.   

I totally get it; there were times when I was in the middle of something, or otherwise calm and not ready for a fight and BPDxw would storm into the room angry.  It was like being ambushed.  I'd lose my nerve and back down, or go along with what she wanted just to keep the peace.  But she was learning how to push me around; when she wasn't getting her way by mere verbal demand, escalating by screaming and throwing things worked, and by my own lack of response I was part of that dynamic.

[ForeverDad]

Sometimes you don't have to do anything but be present.

Years ago before we separated, I would come home not knowing who I would meet.  I could leave a ranting maniac in the morning and come home to a calm spouse.  I could leave a calm spouse in the morning and come home to a raging stranger on the rampage.  I recall one time I came home to a calm spouse but as she sat down on the sofa to tell me about something, it reminded her of something else and before my eyes her face changed and morphed into my anti-spouse.  She did it by herself, I didn't do anything but listen.

As is often stated here, you can do your best to use skills to minimize the conflict but you can't "fix" a seriously disordered person with BPD traits.  The mere existence of a close relationship enables the other to "let their hair down" and vent.  The reason therapy can potentially work - when we spent years trying and failing - is that the therapist is not in an emotionally close relationship with the patient.

So, yes, you may be able to reduce the outbursts and chaos, but it is still there and seems to break out quite often no matter how hard we try.

[Notwendy]

Thank you all so much for sharing!

One thing I have noticed too is when the response is not 100 % what she'd want, she will make me (or try to make me) feel guilty, immature, wrong etc.

This is just a less dramatic example of how what I do or say will cause a reaction that feels "not worth it". Standing up to myself can leave me confused, so it's better to avoid.

If anyone wants to share stories related to this, I'd like to read. I mean stories where you stood up for yourself but ultimately it just hurt you because you "lost the second round".

I think I could write a novel.

It's not just one story, it's a pattern, and I think this is what I was trying to say on this thread. So, you stopped connecting on IG with the co-worker. Did this "solve the issue" and now, it's something else.

You try to "do the thing your wife requests" but somehow, it's not 100%- something isn't right with it.

This is your wife's emotions and thinking- she is playing this out in her mind- with herself in victim role- and you, and anyone else- is doing something wrong or hurtful due to the thinking and projection. You become the main person due to being the closest one to her but it is with others too.

It's not possible to "fix" someone else's thinking or emotions. On your part, there's the decision about what you choose to do about the situation.

Yes, I "stood up" for myself and then "lost the second round", but this isn't a situation of who is the winner and who is the loser. For whatever "victory" was gained, by either person, there were loses too.

[captain5024]

I think I could write a novel.

It's not just one story, it's a pattern, and I think this is what I was trying to say on this thread. So, you stopped connecting on IG with the co-worker. Did this "solve the issue" and now, it's something else.

You try to "do the thing your wife requests" but somehow, it's not 100%- something isn't right with it.

This is your wife's emotions and thinking- she is playing this out in her mind- with herself in victim role- and you, and anyone else- is doing something wrong or hurtful due to the thinking and projection. You become the main person due to being the closest one to her but it is with others too.

It's not possible to "fix" someone else's thinking or emotions. On your part, there's the decision about what you choose to do about the situation.

Yes, I "stood up" for myself and then "lost the second round", but this isn't a situation of who is the winner and who is the loser. For whatever "victory" was gained, by either person, there were loses too.

This describes my wife.   During an episode nothing could be done correctly, she could find fault with winning $1 million dollars and "paint black" anyone or anything nearby at the time.  There was no happy ending, it was a cycle that needed to happen to ensure her dysfunctional survival.  Although SET and other strategies reduced the conflict and duration to an extent, I realized after being on this "carnival ride" many, many times that she was the only one that could stop the dysfunctional thinking.  To date she has not chosen to do so.

For me the dysfunctional thinking was not my breaking point.  I can empathize with her troubled soul as I've been troubled myself. 

What is ending our relationship is that these episodes can occur at really inappropriate times.  If it is time for an episode it doesn't matter who or what is nearby, she can not control her behavior.  Many stable aspects of my life and many relationships have been disrupted because of this instability, and this is the part I find unacceptable.

It is the destructive behavior that results from the disordered thinking -- this is my limit.