Our daughter-in-law denies having any disorder and will not agree to treatment

[Monkeypuzzle]

We are in the UK. Our son has married someone with serious behaviour problems and currently lives in Switzerland. She is very controlling, having access to his phone and e-mails so we can't communicate with him directly. She does not allow him to see his friends any more. She is intensely emotional, exhibits extreme jealousy, always needs to be the centre of attention, has regular meltdowns when she can be very cruel and vindictive. She denies having a problem but lies compulsively to cover up her behaviour and blame others. She told us in the past that when she was young her father was violently abusive but now denies that there is anything wrong and insists that her family is perfect. She is obsessed with money and the cost of everything. She uses her son (our grandson) as leverage against us, and has given us a list of demands we must agree to before we can ever visit them. Demand # 1 is that we never discuss her mental health. # 2 is that we must keep a tally of everything we spend on both of our sons and daughters-in-law and grandchildren so that we can prove we have spent equally on each and equalise any discrepancies.  # 3 we must ask about her family but not talk about the other daughter-in-law's family in front of her. # 4 if we do visit them we must agree to leave their home at regular intervals so she does not get too stressed. As she has not had a proper mental health diagnosis we don't know what the condition is, but from what we have read it could be Borderline Personality Disorder, malignant narcissism, Histrionic Personality Disorder or complex PTSD. I would very much appreciate any advice from anyone with experience of these issues. Is the label important? How can we persuade her to get help, when our son is unable or unwilling to do so? Thank you.

[Pook075]

I would very much appreciate any advice from anyone with experience of these issues. Is the label important? How can we persuade her to get help, when our son is unable or unwilling to do so?

Hello and welcome to the family.  I'm so sorry you're going through this and I understand how heartbreaking it must be.  I've had similar experiences with my BPD daughter and BPD ex-wife.

First thing- labels absolutely don't matter at all.  They're helpful for treatment purposes, but other than that they're probably more harmful than anything.  Nobody wants to be labeled and when you suggest that she might have something wrong with her, she hears, "They think I'm a raving lunatic that needs to be institutionalized."

How would you react if someone made you feel that way?

So here's what happens.  She's mentally unstable at times and feels that you're judging her unfairly.  That brings all sorts of stress....which isn't good for someone with mental illness.  So she obsesses over it and dreads contact because you're going to judge her and put her down.  It makes her feel worthless and because of her mental illness, she's going to push back with her husband to cut you out of his life, because you're hurting her and he should choose his wife over you.

So now she's miserable, your son is dreading being in the middle, and everyone is completely stressed out even thinking about a holiday gathering.

You mentioned that she made four rules.  Okay, they don't sound like the end of the world, and honestly they're somewhat fair coming from someone with mental illness. 

For her family stuff, yeah, maybe her dad was violently abusive at one time.  My daughter said that about me, and in a disordered mental health way it was absolutely true.  When she was off the rails, I'd scream at her to stop because it was the only way I could get her to pause and listen.  To her, it was mental abuse...which you may or may not agree with. 

But here's the thing, it hurt her deeply and whether it was true or not, it mentally scarred her.  So the pain and trauma was absolutely real in her life regardless.  On the flip side though, she still loved me and craved a healthy relationship.  Again, this is mental illness we're talking about...it's not logical or easy to understand, because you're not mentally ill.  She is though and that deserves compassion.

Your other question- how do you persuade her (or your son) to get her help?

The simple answer is that you don't.  By even posing that question, you're telling your son that his wife is deeply flawed (which he already realizes) and you're asking him to choose you over her.  In response, she's making his life an absolute hell because she doesn't understand why you're trying to ruin her marriage, destroy her life.

And hear me here...I'm not saying that you're doing that intentionally.  But that's how she feels and because she's mentally ill, her feelings bring real pain and trauma.  For her its actual torture and your son is taking the fallout from that when you're not around.

She will get help once she realizes in her own time that she needs help.  Nobody can tell her any different, and even if one of you had her institutionalized, it wouldn't "help her" until she was actually ready to change.  Even the best psychiatrist in the world couldn't convince her; she has to see it on her own and actually want to get better.

So where does that leave you?  It's a tough position for sure, but this is either going to escalate to the point where you're cut out of her family's life, or you can accept her (flaws and all) to repair the relationship.  By showing her love and compassion, that de-escalates her mental illness and allows her to calm down. 

When she's disordered, everything is pure emotion and there's no telling what nonsense or hurtful things she might say.  And if you choose to argue with her in that state, things are only going to get worse because she can't understand why you can't understand her.  She doesn't even realize that her words are all over the place.  So you focus on her emotion only, ignore the majority of the words, and just show compassion to help calm her down.

Once she relaxes and is level-headed again, then you can have a logical conversation. 

If you have an upcoming get-together, then her mind is already recalling past events and how badly it hurt her.  And remember, she's mentally ill so a lot of the past might be remembered out of context...which hurts her just the same.  She is DREADING it beyond words because you think she's crazy and have no respect for her.  Again, we're talking about feelings here...not facts.  It's how she feels, and when she gets too emotional the feelings take over and reap havoc.

So make a change this year- agree to all her rules, and be supportive however you can.  If she's ugly, then step away for a bit, knowing that things are ultra-stressful for her because she's facing her worst fears by having you there (with a potential to judge her and hurt her).  You can turn all of that around though by learning to be her ally instead of her enemy.

I hope that helps!  I know it's a lot and it's super hard...I just tried to say what she can't because she's mentally ill.

[Notwendy]

From my own experience with a mother with BPD, I would not say anything to your son about her or to anyone else you think will report it to her. Read about the Karpman triangle. If she decides you are in some way a threat to her- your son will be put in the position to align with her and chose her.

You are "playing the long game" here. One can't know the outcome but if you want contact with your grandchild- IMHO, it's the best chance I know of.

So for her "rules". This comes down to boundaries- If she had a rule that you could not go along with, then you can't compromise yourself- but by not going along with them, there's the risk of losing contact altogether. So looking at them:

#1- I think it's possible to not discuss her mental heath- so don't.

#2- You know this one isn't rational. You can give anything you want to any of your children and it's not her business. For both #1 and #2- as Pook said- this is a person who feels threatened, not valued, and possibly envious of the other family. She wants to know she's valued and feels equal. So, spend equally on gifts at holidays, birthdays, show her that,  but what you do privately with your money is your own business. In general, I try to be equal with spending and gifts with children anyway to avoid hurt feelings.

#3 Don't discuss the other family- that is doable.

#4 I actually think this is a good idea, and a reasonable request. My BPD mother needed a lot of control and having someone in her house was a change in environment and routine for her. This has nothing to do with how she feels about us. Having people in her house was a stressor- for her and for us- so going out for coffee, doing an errand, that gave her space and us too.

These are doable since you live at a distance and it's only with visits. Yes, she may need mental health but whether or not she gets it, or it works, is not up to you and saying anything will do more harm than good.

[Monkeypuzzle]

Thank you both (Pook075 and Notwendy) for your responses. They have been very useful and given me a better understanding of how she might feel. I have also read several articles on BPDFamily (and elsewhere) which have helped me to look ahead and try to be more supportive to our DIL and son. I still have some serious concerns that we might make things worse. I came across several articles which say it is wrong to enable harmful behaviours, but it feels like that is what we are going to have to do. I also read that it is important to remain true and authentic to ourselves, but some of the demands from our DIL will make it very difficult.

Since my last post I told my son we would agree to the four demands. We then received a long letter from our DIL listing the things we have done wrong to her and our son. It included more demands: 1 - We have to list everything we have spent on each family over the last 5 years (presents, meals out, time spent working on each of their houses, anything that can be given a monetary value) then we have to calculate the value (backed up with receipts or bank statements) and then pay them the amount of the difference, 2 - We have to apologise (in writing) for the hurt we have caused to her which made her have a meltdown in front of the whole family on Christmas Day, 3 - We have to admit (in writing) that our elder son has always been the favourite and that we have deliberately penalised our younger son (her husband).

These new demands will be difficult to meet. We love both of our sons equally and cannot in good conscience say one is the favourite. I also want to be able to explain my actions to other family members (including grandchildren) in years to come, and would like to be able to say I did the very best I could for the whole family. I should also mention that some family members are not amenable to meeting any of the DIL's demands - they already feel they have gone through enough pain themselves and do not want me to enable her any more.

[Notwendy]

This is my own opinion of her sending these demands.This next list of expectations crosses my own boundaries. We all have our own but this next one crosses a line for me. The first list seemed more reasonable. Don't talk about mental illness or the other family- OK, I can see that if it's hurtful to her.

I wouldn't agree to those demands. I also wouldn't put anything in writing. This can be twisted and used later in a hurtful way. I learned that when I wrote my father an email. The email was respectful. BPD mother kept it and twisted in in a different context.

To admit to a child that their sibling is your favorite. That is hurtful and not true. I would not agree to ever say that at all.

If someone asked me to account for all expenses for each of my children for 5 years, it would not only be an absurd and unreasonable request. It would be impossible. While I don't treat them differently and spend more on one than the other in general, I also don't keep a tab on it. Kids are different. I may see a sweater one likes but the other wouldn't like. I would get them something else in approximate range.  Gifts don't always have the exact same price tag. The goal is to give each one something they like, not match penny to penny.

I also would not write an apology. That will be used as "evidence" against you in other situations.

I see a pattern in this. It's a frog in pot situation. First, give a set of expectations that don't seem too far off, so you agree to it thinking that's going to fix the situation. Then, comes another set of demands that push the boundaries a little farther. So what could happen if you agree to these? Would she then grant you her absolution for your "crimes" or would you then be given another set of demands even more degrading than this one?

My BPD mother did this kind of thing. She also had NPD traits. She needed to feel superior and in control, and have others meet her demands. For her, this meant servitude. You were expected to do what she told you to do. She'd either ask, demand, or manipulate to get this.

There is a difference between being supportive, doing something you are willing to do, and enabling, and agreeing to something that violates your own boundaries. Your DIL started with a list of demands, some of which seemed reasonable to meet. Then she came back with another set that to me crossed that line. IMHO, they are unreasonable, and demeaning and hurtful to your other children.

Now, do you say something back? No, that's another set up. Replying in writing that you won't do this is also evidence. From my own experience, I'd go gray rock. Say nothing back because anything you say will be potentially twisted. Narcicism loves attention. Gray rock (no reaction, no emotion) is boring to them. This isn't the same as going no contact. It's just not providing a reaction to these outrageous demands.

Your son is in a difficult situation but it's going to be up to him to make a decision about it. Let this be for a while, for your own mental health.

[Strawberry29]

I totally recognise this sort of escalated demands, and am really sorry you have to go through it. The challenge is there are often baits here and there when they start with these...

Out of the 4 initial demands, I think 3 were reasonable requests that anybody could make. If I don't want to talk about a specific topic (my mental health, or some family) that's totally ok and if somebody comes to my home it is perfectly ok to ask to have some freedom.

However, the request of receipts is in my opinion completely unreasonable and could have acted as a bait. Indeed, the following escalation all starts from there. The same thing has happened to me over and over again, when I underestimated the importance of some aspects of the requests of my BPD and the following requests were all based on that...

You do not have to prove to anybody that you love your children equally. You do not have to count the grains of rice that you give to your grandchildren at dinner to make sure they are the same. If you do love them equally (and I am sure you do) you will naturally give what you think is worth givign to each of them at the right time.

My parents gave to my sibling way more than what they gave me oevr the years, for example they bought him a car, financed private studies, etc etc. But they did it for a reason, because they thought he needed help, while I did not. There is no way on earth I would take that to mean they love me less than they love him, because I have like a million other proofs of their love which are not money or gifts. And this is just an example to say circumstances can lead to slight differences in expenditures that are totally unrelated to one's love for their children. You love your two sides of the family equally and you will keep treating them equally without having to report back to any "love police".

Agree with Notwendy that the "grey rock" strategy is often the best to avoid drama and improve things on the long term, but just to warn you it can come with its own accusations as well. My brother often accuses me of using "psychological violence" against him by means of "silent treatment" simply because, after having told him a million times, I have stopped responding to messages containing threats, insults, judgements, etc. Note I still reply to him when he sends polite(-ish) messages, even 5 minutes after one that I ignored if needed (though that almost never happened of course, because generally when he goes on an emotional rollercoster he won't leave it for some minutes/hours).
I know what he says makes no sense, and right now I am generally fine ignoring these accusations, but just to say pretty much everythign you do will anyway be possibly twisted against you, so you just have to be clear and firm.

[Notwendy]

I totally recognise this sort of escalated demands, and am really sorry you have to go through it. The challenge is there are often baits here and there when they start with these...

You do not have to prove to anybody that you love your children equally. You do not have to count the grains of rice that you give to your grandchildren at dinner to make sure they are the same.

You love your two sides of the family equally and you will keep treating them equally without having to report back to any "love police".


 pretty much everything you do will anyway be possibly twisted against you,

IMHO, you can not win this if you get into anything with her. BPD is on a spectrum and in addition, the PD's can mix. My mother had primarily BPD but in addition, there was an NPD aspect to her.  She had no empathy. She seemed to enjoy setting herself "above" people and making them submissive to her. She was emotionally and verbally abusive. There was no "winning" with her in any confrontation because, if we have empathy- we don't want to hurt people. BPD mother didn't seem to have the same "brakes"if she was angry. She'd eventually get her way.

Like with your son, my BPD mother controlled my father. She also listened in on his phone calls and read his emails. Communication that I had with him was shared with her. If we went out alone together to run an errand, she'd call him on his cell phone every few minutes to check on where we were.

Although her behavior was with immediate family and outside people only saw her best personality- this changed when she was elderly and needed assistance. Being a caregiver is a close relationship and she began to act out these dynamics with them, and also the staff at her assisted living. I knew then that this is her, and not due to anything family did or didn't do.

So what to do? She is who she is and you don't get emotionally involved with her. You become clear about who you are, what your values are, and you live accordingly to them. You don't have to justify or defend them. You love all your children, but also, because you love your son, you don't enable him in this situation. He's going to have to come to his own decision. Although my BPD mother controlled my father, he also allowed this to happen. I could not make that decision for him.

I still had empathy for my mother and treated her cordially and with respect. I just didn't get deep or emotional with her. I grey rocked and ignored drama as much as possible. Sometimes I did get angry and frustrated with her, as it was a difficult situation but I saw that doing that- was like "peeing into the wind". It bounced right off her and back at me. So there isn't any point in doing that.

Whenever you are in contact with your DIL, act as if she's a boss at work that you secretely dislike but you need your job and so you smile and act cordial and pleasant around her anyway.  If she insults you, ignore it but don't continue the conversation. Politely excuse yourself. Say you have a call, a meeting to go to, or someone's at the door, or you have to go to the ladies room- something in a neutral manner.

You can send cards at holidays and birthdays to all of them. Don't waste your money on gifts. You don't reward treating you poorly  with gifts. This isn't about keeping things even with your kids. It's about not wasting your money because you don't know if gifts will go in the trash or to the family.

Why send cards? For you, so you know you have tried. What goes on after that, you can't control. Text your son a couple times a month with something neutral. "Hello, son, thinking of you and hope you are doing well". Maybe he will see it, maybe not- but you know you kept your end of the communication open.

I can't "diagnose" your DIL, but as Maya Angelou said- "when someone shows you who they are, believe them". I agree the first set of demands were 3/4 reasonable. Maybe that could have been a possible workable start. The second set of demands are completely unreasonable, hurtful, and expect submission from you.  I think she's shown you plenty about who she is, whatever that label may be.

[CC43]

I was going to reply to the first message, and then I read Notwendy’s replies, and I would have written the exact same things!

The DIL seems to want to control you, demanding written apologies/confessions, an exhaustive expense accounting and complete control over conversation topics. She has no intention of having an amicable relationship with you—she‘ll weaponize anything you do write down, and it could become a nuclear arms race, with ever increasing demands and threats. I think you avoid a war by gray rocking, meaning you don’t engage at all, and you don’t share information either. You can talk about the weather and trivial, non-emotional things, and keep visits short.

[zachira]

One of the most successful strategies I used with my mother with BPD and still use with other disordered people, is to have someone with me who the disordered person does not want to look badly in front of by acting out. I invited other people to stay at my mother's house so I was not alone and she behaved better. This strategy could work if your DIL really behaves better with people she is not close to and wants to make a good impression on when they are around.

[Monkeypuzzle]

Thank you to everyone who has responded - you have really helped. For the past couple of years it felt like we were in a unique position and we must have done something really terrible to cause this to happen. Whilst it is awful that so many other families are experiencing the same pain, the feeling that there is a community of fellow sufferers who are willing to take the time to share experiences and advice makes it a little more bearable.

[Notwendy]

It's not anything you did or didn't do. It appears this way because this dynamic tends to be mostly with people closest to the pwBPD. I also thought it was something I did or didn't do- and if this was the case, then I could do or not do something to fix the situation. The dynamic was clearer when I saw my BPD mother do this with caregivers.

I'm not any kind of expert in PD's but I think what makes this situation more difficult is the co-existing NPD traits. BPD mother was both- the vulnerabilitly, poor sense of self and emotional dependence of BPD mixed with a sense of entitlement, a need to feel superior, and a cruel streak. She needed people to help her but if they did- she'd then be dominating and controlling.

If she had something we wanted- that would become the object or person she would hold as "hostage" for us to meet her demands. As children, this may be a favorite toy. As adults, it was of course, other people, sentimental items. She'd destroy items if she was angry.

The only way I knew to detatch from this is to not want anything from her. If I didn't ask or want anything, then she had less control with me. But she had the one thing I couldn't "not want" and that was a relationship with my father.

I know every situation is different but when I see this pattern, it reminds me of this. Surely it's tragically sad to see your son in this situation but he's in a difficult spot as he is in a position where he has to choose his loyalty. Your instinct is to be protective of your son, but this places you right in the Karpman triangle dynamics. It appears the DIL is the "problem" and your son is the victim of her behavior but this isn't the case. It's the dynamics between them. If this were to change, from my own experience, I think it would have to be up to your son to decide this.

The only way I know to reduce my participation in Karmpan triangle dynamics was to go grey rock neutral. Zachira's advice about not visiting or interacting alone is helpful. I avoided being alone with my BPD mother. She tended to hold it together when there were people around. Shorter visits helped too. I think my father's family did a good job of managing this situation. Much wasn't known about BPD at the time so they must have figured this out on their own They didn't try to get close to my mother- but stayed cordial around her. They invited her to family get togethers- whether or not she agreed to attend. Meanwhile, they stayed close and intact with each other.