Our daughter-in-law denies having any disorder and will not agree to treatment

[Notwendy]

So a bit about going along with her if you choose this.

Whatever you decide, be careful when you communicate with your son. My BPD mother listened into my phone calls with my father and read his emails. When you speak to your son, speak as if his wife is listening to you. Assume she is.

One thing I noticed is that my mother's extended family was always praising her. This played into her narcisism- to be praised and they knew how to "take care of her" in this manner. As to what was going on at our home - the dymamics, they realized this later- (much later) but said they had no idea. They really didn't know but somehow they knew to compliment her. But not too much. If I did it too much she could see it was patronizing. So you may want to consider upping the compliments and going along with her self image for the short run. Yes, it's not how you really feel but it's in short doses with the goal of hoping to keep the visit smoother.

Since you live at a distance- if you really want to get back into this situation- you can decide to do it in short visits. I found short visits were more manageable. When I visited my BPD mother, I just went along with her. It wasn't worth the effort to get into it with her. However, by the end of the visit, she'd find something I did or didn't do that she was angry with. If you want to do this so you can visit- then consider this may be the outcome but at least you got to visit.



My BPD mother needed complete control and compliance with her demands. Our relationship was more as if I was her servant. I did tolerate it as much as possible for the sake of my relationship with my father. So you may decide to do this for a similar reason- to see your son and grandchildren. But still- keep in mind you are going along with this for that reason- and also keep your feelings in check. This isn't personal to you. It's her emotional disorder.

However, if the demands increase to the point where your own emotional well being and your H's emotional well being are compromised, consider your own limits with this. For me, I had to keep visits short and also keep a distance from my mother-so that I was able to have boundaries.

[Notwendy]

I realize my advice is contradictory -but I did have boundaries with my BPD mother and when I did, there was a cost to it- in terms of the relationship with my father- because she was in control. Giving in to her didn't lead to "fixing" the situation. But for some situations, choosing to go along in short visits" was an option.

Also know that this may be a cycle for them. Bringing you and your H into the arena of the Karpman triangle may be how they relate to you because this is a part of their dynamics. The main thing is your own emotional well being. How much can you tolerate to maintain contact.

Also what are your own personal boundaries that you are willing to risk contact over if the demands are too unreasonable.

[ForeverDad]

And do you believe this is it? What if she comes up with another set of demands?

We here are prone to be peacemakers.  I know I was.  I was cornered into appeasing too.  And my family was powerless to stop it.  All it did was kick the can down the road.

Besides the emotions and hormones of pregnancy, could it be that having a baby heightens DIL's sense that her husband is more "obligated" to her, that he has to kowtow to demands since now there's the leverage of the baby.  Obligation is one of the parameters of the BPD "FOG".

BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt

I think, for everyone in these kinds of relationships, they also need to decide for themselves how they want to proceed. I understand the need to feel they have tried all they knew to do.

In my marriage it came down to the reality that I would always be the father of my child, but my marriage was only as permanent as we two could work it out.  What crushed me but also enabled me to take a stand was that my then-spouse was threatening to disappear with our son and I'd never see him again.  (My spouse was sensitized by her childhood with a stepfather, marriage was manageable when I was just a husband but having a baby made me a father and that was too triggering for her.  Well, a lot more than that but that's what it eventually boiled down to.)  I chose to be a father.  It was tough but it wasn't a quick decision.  I tried every other option for wife and child until that was all that was left.

[Notwendy]

FD- you hit your bottom line and I think this is when people decide there needs to be a change. I "hit bottom" too, in another way as one doesn't "divorce" a BPD parent but I knew I needed to have boundaries.

One idea is to ask your son what he thinks you should say to the demands. The first one, I couldn't do, as I don't keep track of every expense on my children and asking for 5 years back - there's no way I could do that. I try to keep things as even as possible but kids are different. I might see a shirt one child likes and think "I think I'll surprise them with this. I might send a child a care package if they are home with a cold. I don't keep track of these things. For holidays/birthdays, I try to keep gifts within the same range but kids like different things. I would not be able to comply with this demand.

Neither would I put in writing that I favored one child over the other. Also, beware of anything in writing- it can be pulled out "against" you at any time. BPD mother did this with some emails until I learned to not send things in writing. This can only be hurtful and it's not true.

The apology for upsetting her. I think one issue is that she had a meltown in front of everyone. My BPD mother did not want her issues to be "exposed" and so this would be a big issue with her. If you can respond with an apology that is both honest and yet still considers her feelings- that may be something you can do. Something like "We are sorry that you felt distress over this incident. We certainly didn't intend for this to happen. We value our relationship with you and will do our best to avoid this in the future".

So, one idea is- before responding to the demands- to ask your son what he thinks about the demands for financial records as it's impossible for you to do this. Explain that you don't have a record of expenses for the past 5 years as you don't keep track of them. Ask him what he'd do in this situation?

The other is to say to your son that you love all your children and can't agree to saying his brother is the favorite. Say to him- you soon will have two children who you will love. What would you do in this situation?

This puts the questions back on him. Let him know- we'd really love to come visit but we don't have the information on expenses that your wife wants. We don't know what to do about this. See what he says.

[Pook075]

Our son has finally been in touch and was begging us to write another response to her demands.

You know your son better than all of us, but to me if he "was begging us to write another response" then they're having some serious conversations about this on their end.

So for me personally, I would absolutely respond.  But at the same time, I would prepare myself for the possible outcomes and come to peace with them now.

1)  They might get angry and explode, making things worse.
2)  They might not respond at all, which also sort of makes things worse.
3)  They might hear me and find compromise.

There's a very high chance that no matter what you say, the situation doesn't improve.  You have to accept that because it actually creates an opportunity here.  It means you can say whatever you want.

If it were me, I would ignore every demand, every past slight, and just speak directly to the core of what you feel- I love you guys and want to be a part of your life.  I don't want to argue or blame, we just want to be there to support you and watch your family grow.

That's it.  No drama.  No get-backs.  Just the plain truth without anything else in the way.

Why would this have a better chance of success?  Because this all comes down to a fear of abandonment, or self worth.  And by saying, "I love you, I want to be there for you, I want a healthy relationship" then you're cutting to the heart of the matter.  It's the only thing that matters and I personally wouldn't talk about anything else.

For just your DIL, it would probably still be an empty message.  But with your DIL and son reading it and processing it together, it will make a world of difference.  Your son will see, what's there to argue about here?!?  They love us and just want to be around us more.  Why are we fighting over receipts in the first place?!?

At the end of the day, this is the story of every BPD relationship- cutting through the garbage and getting to what really matters to them.  They want to feel loved, supported, and accepted.  All the demands and chaos are just really unhealthy ways of trying to reach that goal.

So if you have nothing at all to lose here, give her exactly what she wants...which is also exactly what you want.  I hope that helps.

[Notwendy]

That is one option Pook, but it didn't work with my BPD mother. I agree- it's what everyone wants. With my parents- I did love them- of course- that is a given, but this wasn't a normal relationship where kids love their parents and parents love their kids. I think at some level, it is what my BPD mother wanted- but with her distorted thinking, trying to relate to her in a "normal" way didn't work.


If BPD mother had a love language, it was servitude and for whatever old trauma she may have been repeating, being in servitude to her included verbal and emotional abuse. There's only so much of this a person is willing to take, (and that varies) and so sadly, for her, her behavior made it difficult to attain the kind of love we all wish for.

It's the nature of the demands here that reminded me of my experiences trying to make the relationship with my parents better. I did all the normal things- but it didn't "hit the spot" with BPD mother, because what she wanted was either not possible or unreasonable to the point that I would not or could not do it. She would demand my father do hurtful and unreasonable things- in a similar dynamic that I suspect is going on here- by making something collateral- "if you want to see your parents, you will do this".

So when I see a demand like "write a letter saying the sibling is the favorite"- what parent would ever do this- write a letter to one child saying the sibling is the favorite"? It's heartless and cruel. This reminds me of the some of the things my mother would "demand".

Another aspect of my mother's demands is that she dictated how you did them in detail- while she supervised. If she wanted the trash taken out, it had to be done a certain way. If you went to the store for soup and it was the wrong shaped noodles she'd be angry at you. Once I brought in ice cream for my father and she got angry because, I didn't ask her permission to put it in the freezer. If we were doing something for her- she'd have been right behind us dictating how to do it.

This is why, when I saw the demand for a table of expenses for each child for the past 5 years, it reminded me of the nature of my mother's demands. She didn't just want the job done- she wanted it in exact detail - and sometimes it wasn't possible to meet that demand. There is no way I could provide 5 years of expenses of holiday and birthday gifts on my adult children. It's not significantly uneven with one over another-  but it's according to each of their preferences and I don't keep exact track of it.

Each relationship is different, so yes, if the letter expressing love without addressing the demands and without expectation of what kind of response you will get is what fits you best, then do that. I know that in my situation, that letter would go right in the trash but it might also serve the purpose of us being "in the wrong" for BPD mother.

Asking the son for his advice as to what the wife wants may possibly provide some insight as to what is actually wanted in a letter.

[Notwendy]

At the end of the day, this is the story of every BPD relationship- cutting through the garbage and getting to what really matters to them.  They want to feel loved, supported, and accepted.  All the demands and chaos are just really unhealthy ways of trying to reach that goal.

So if you have nothing at all to lose here, give her exactly what she wants...which is also exactly what you want.  I hope that helps.

I agree with this, and certainly tried to the best of my ability, to achieve this with my parents. So perhaps my lack of success in this- is something to consider. Maybe there is a better way if anyone knows of that. My purpose in posting is to provide some insight into the nature of the dynamics. One of the most helpful things for me was to see this as not being personal to me but as a result of the dynamics. By not taking it personally- I could be less emotionally reactive to it and stay calmer- and there'd be less drama.

All humans are going to make errors at some point, and the best we can do is make the effort to repair a situation, to the extent it is possible, if it were possible, but if the situation involves abusive behaviors, we also may need to have boundaries.

[Pook075]

I agree with this, and certainly tried to the best of my ability, to achieve this with my parents. So perhaps my lack of success in this- is something to consider. Maybe there is a better way if anyone knows of that. My purpose in posting is to provide some insight into the nature of the dynamics. One of the most helpful things for me was to see this as not being personal to me but as a result of the dynamics. By not taking it personally- I could be less emotionally reactive to it and stay calmer- and there'd be less drama.

All humans are going to make errors at some point, and the best we can do is make the effort to repair a situation, to the extent it is possible, if it were possible, but if the situation involves abusive behaviors, we also may need to have boundaries.

When it comes to mental health, I think some people are past the point of no return.  My mom was undiagnosed, but she was the angriest person I've ever met...always complaining about something and so quick to bring up past hurts.  Yet she was also the most loving person I've ever met as well.  Those two things don't go together, I understand, but that was my mom.  She'd do absolutely anything in the world for anyone she cared about.  But if you said one thing that disagreed with her beliefs, it was like an atomic bomb went off.  She'd scream and rant and threaten and storm out of the house....only to call you three days later like nothing had ever happened.

My mom took that anger to her grave and it broke my heart; I tried so hard for decades to convince her to let it go.  She just couldn't though.

I do completely understand what you're saying; some things just don't work in every scenario.  There's hundreds of factors involved and everyone is unique.  But in my specific experiences with 4 other BPD's, love and compassion can cut through all the drama.

And my mom did have moments where she'd try to let things go; she wasn't always furious.  She somehow always got back to that though focused on the same life events...some of which were 60 years earlier in her childhood.

[Notwendy]

I agree, Pook- it's difficult and sad when a person remains angry.

I believe that if love and compassion could have helped my BPD mother, my father would have succeeded. He gave this relationship his all. I think it did benefit my BPD mother in some ways but, she still had BPD and this influenced her thinking and her emotions. It seemed she was acting out of some (unknown to us) old trauma. People would attempt to love, and help her and care for her and somehow still be cast into the role of persector in her thinking. I don't think she could make the connection between her behavior and people's reactions to it in her situation.

I didn't know how my father's family felt about my mother until much later. They were concerned about her having some kind of mental illness. I don't think they knew about BPD but they kept their thoughts about her to themselves, included her in family invites ( it was up to her to decide to come or not and mostly she didn't) and did not say anything critical about her. That was key. She was very sensitive to anyone talking about her or possibly exposing her behavior.

How we got to spend time with them, I am not sure. I think it was several factors. Babies and small children are compliant and easy to control. As older kids, teens- while we were good kids in general, we became aware of the disfunction, older kids are not always compliant and teens are moody. BPD mother had difficulty handling parenting. There was at least one mental health crisis with her. So we were then sent to stay with Dad's family on school breaks.

So it is possible that a parent with BPD might withold contact with a baby but possibly not later. This is why I think playing the long game- being cordial, not reactive, not confrontational and don't take the behaviors personally may be a good strategy. However, when the demands become hurtful or unreasonable, I think we can also have our own boundaries, however this goes.

Knowing the relationship between my mother and my father's family, I assumed that after he passed away, they'd have little to do with each other. Some time after my father passed, they had a family reunion and didn't include BPD mother. I didn't think she'd care and she would not have attended if she were invited, but she was furious and hurt that they didn't invite her.  She even continued to invite them to her family events after that.

I think this also goes along with the feelings that are in the moment. When she'd say things about them, it was in the moment that she didn't like them. But maybe it was just her BPD speaking and as changing as she feelings. Maybe she didn't dislike them after all.

Hard to know. But for extended family- self care and your own emotional well being is important. Protect it to the extent you feel is necessary.