my daughter insists things that never happened are real

[sunnierdays100]

My daughter (23) has BPD and wants thereapy to work through childhood "abuse". I am open to therapy with her but then I will have to say that many of the things that she "remembers" never happened. She consistently tells of awful memories of me (and other peopel) doing terrible things to her that in reality never happened. Like me yelling at her over and over and people berating her and punishing her constantly. I know the exact things she keeps insisting on never happened and if I go into counseling with her I have to tell her that those things never happened and she has said I never believe her about anything already. But we know those things didn't happen and she will never trust me again after I say so. So how can I go into therapy knowing that it will make things worse?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[ForeverDad]

Wow, this is quite a hot potato.  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) are known to make claims and allegations that are actually feelings which are perceived as facts.  And such "memories" are very hard to disprove, what with the propensity for society to believe the "victim" who makes an unsubstantiated claim.

Has she been diagnosed with BPD?  Or is she undiagnosed yet fits the BPD trait patterns?

While your concern is notable that you don't want to lose your daughter's trust, there is another risk that you may not have considered.  Though she is now an adult, would some of those perceived memories extend back into her childhood when she was a minor?  If these memories were considered abusive, would that trigger mandated reporting and investigations by officials even though she is now an adult?  I don't know the answer but that's what came to mind.  I really don't know how to approach this but I welcome others to add insight in case my concerns are overcautious.

[BPDstinks]

Hi!  I am sorry to hear this! although.....I cannot believe SOMEone else has had this!  My 24 y/o pw/BPD (so much of a backstory....) has not seen nor spoken to me, her father, her sister, her nieces for going on 3 years (she texts every now & than, only if she needs something) our last conversationS were (amongst others) "Father is the reason I want to end my life" (this was before I heard of JADE) pwBPD said "he went through stuff in my trunk (we had traded cars...for a weekend, per her request) he had cleaned out empty alcohol bottles, b/c he thought she could get in trouble and trash (pwBPD mentioned TWO pieces of Halloween candy, he, admittedly, ate.  She also said he yelled at her, all the time, when she was a child (I truly do not recall this; there was normal DISCLIPLINE...my husband, by nature, is soft-spoken); a couple months later, she said, I was the reason, b/c I was not "there" for her when she was a child (again, no JADE) (I am STUNNED, b/c she once said used to joke and say I was a SMOTHER (did TOO much): she said I worked too much and was not emotionally available; I acknowledge I worked aLOT ) because my job demanded that, off and on.....there were so many examples.  For months after these accusations, I scoured through pictures and cards and tried to see WHAT I missed? I still do not understand....sadly, I do not have advice, however, wish you luck with you cause

[AliceBigandSmall]

I think this is likely a very common scenario when approaching counselling for someone with BPD.  Her perception and feelings are real to her even though the abusive actions didn't happen.  One of the most painful things when I started learning about BPD was to keep reading it was often the result of an abusive family , especially the mother.  it took awhile for me to have that lightbulb moment that this is because of the self reporting of people with BPD who often create that narrative.  It would be more accurate and helpful if psychology stated that people with BPD often claim/report abusive pasts, rather than stating it as if it's a fact.  It will be so important to find the right counsellor to navigate this with.  I can identify with the no win situation this puts you in.  If you agree with her to keep the peace it only feeds into her narrative and reinforces her beliefs which could be very harmful and if you say it didn't happen she'll feel betrayed.  Practicing J.A.D.E. - don't Justify Argue Defend or Explain - has helped me in such dilemmas.  staying neutral and not engaging on the topic might be your best option.  I've been finding out in the last few months the claims my daughter has made about me (and others) and it hurts deeply but I don't challenge her about them.  I know the reality  and have let go of any need to try to convince her of it.  It's up to the counsellor to help your daughter sort through her feelings about her childhood and if they're experienced with BPD they'll know the traits that affect her perception.  I think this fear of people with BPD falsely claiming abuse probably keeps a lot of parents from reaching out for counselling so well done for being brave enough to support her in this. 

[CC43]

Hi there,

The pwBPD in my life used to claim that she suffered from all sorts of abuse, bullying and traumas.  At first, I gave her the benefit of the doubt.  But over time, I learned that her version of events was generally distorted.  The fact patterns usually didn't line up.  Most of the time she would omit important details, such as her role in starting a fight or threatening violence.  Sometimes she would use projection; she would accuse others of "assaulting" her, when what really happened is that her parent called emergency services when she threatened self-harm.  Other times, she would be vague about the purported abuses, to keep people guessing.  But one thing was constant:  she always portrayed herself as a victim.  According to her, she was abused and bullied by everyone close to her, from siblings and parents to extended family, from roommates and workmates to ex-friends and romantic partners.  I think she experienced life as traumatic, and she was basically "primed" for a fight or flight response, even in ordinary situations.  Does that ring true in your daughter's case?

Here's my take.  PwBPD can have emotions that constantly feel overwhelming, and their default attitude is negative.  In addition, they are prone to over-the-top, often inappropriate outbursts and impulsive reactions with other people.  I think they feel deep shame for their behavior and choices in life.  But rather than take responsibility, apologize and move forward, they have a maladaptive coping mechanism, which is to blame others.  A typical way of blaming others is to claim abuse, even when there is none.  I think pwBPD will ruminate about negative social interactions so much that their brain will invent malicious intent and exaggerate harm.  She can spend weeks in this negative thinking loop.  She ruminates so much that her very identity becomes one of a victim.  If you challenge her, you're not just challenging facts, but her very identity.  Because if she's not the poor little abused girl, then who is she?

On these boards there's a lot of talk about validating feelings, and there are some scripts about what to say, such as "It must be terrible to feel you were treated that way."  You will be advised not to validate the invalid, and not to confess to something you didn't do, which is sound advice.  But here's the thing that I've experienced with the pwBPD in my life.  After "indulging" in her victim narrative through validation of feelings, I don't think that did her much good.  By validating her victim narrative, I think it encouraged her to dwell on it even more, and she got "stuck" constantly ruminating about negative thoughts.  The worse she got, the farther back in childhood she'd go to dredge up stories of supposed abuses.  It was clear to me that when the pwBPD in my life was "stuck" thinking about negative past events, she did not do well.  Conversely, when she talked about the present and future, it was a clear sign that she was doing much better.

I guess I'll wrap up by saying that you might be able to tell what's bugging your daughter by listening to her claims, reading between the lines so to speak.  If she says that other people are berating or disrespecting her, that could mean she feels inferior/insecure/childish.  (I frequently hear similar complaints from the pwBPD in my life, who feels very insecure about being "behind" her peers in school/life.)   If she says people are violent towards her, that could be projection about her wanting to inflict violence or self-harm.  In the context of a romantic relationship, if she's accusing her partner of infidelity for no reason, that could mean she's insecure in the relationship or thinking about infidelity herself.

[Pook075]

She consistently tells of awful memories of me (and other peopel) doing terrible things to her that in reality never happened. Like me yelling at her over and over and people berating her and punishing her constantly. 

First off, hello and welcome to the family!  I'm so glad you found us and I'm very sorry for what you must be going through with your kid.  My BPD daughter is 26 so I've been in your shoes.

I would like to challenge you a bit here though.

For instance, my old neighbor was terrified of dogs.  And when our dog got out, a sweet white lab that would never hurt anything, the neighbor would scream at the top of her lungs and run away.  Of course, because of her hysteria, our dog would often run towards her in a big, goofy dog way. The neighbor, however, fearful for her life would call animal control and demand that our nuisance animal be taken away or put down.  Absolutely everyone loved our dog except this one neighbor.

My question for you- was my neighbor lying or did she see our dog as a genuine threat?

That's sort of the position you're in with your daughter.  She says something horrible happened, you say nothing happened, and everyone else is perplexed at who to believe.  But there's truth from everyone in that- your daughter could have been traumatized while you didn't feel like you did anything wrong.

The lesson here is that everyone's perception equals their reality.  My neighbor was traumatized by my dog, even though the dog did absolutely nothing wrong.  Likewise, your daughter is traumatized by childhood memories.  Denying that and calling her on it makes things considerably worse.

Nobody gets to tell us how to feel- feelings are 100% real and they affect how our bodies react to stress, fear, and all sorts of other things.  Now, the reality that drives those feelings...that could be true or false...but it honestly doesn't matter.

Think back to being a kid and thinking there was a monster under your bed or in the closet.  Did it matter if it was actually there or not?  Nope, because it scared the daylights out of you regardless.  People have heart attacks from those types of things all the time- not because of the actual threat, but because of their feelings and where they lead.

So hopefully you can accept this- your kid's feelings are real, even if they come from some distorted memories (through the eyes of a child).  Saying they're false only hurts your kid, so it's much better to talk that stuff out and apologize for anything that hurt her feelings.

Catch that- I didn't say to apologize for whatever she's accusing you of.  You only apologize for the emotional part, that you never meant to hurt her or cause a rift between the two of you.  Because that's the truth, isn't it?  That you'd never want to harm her?

So much of BPD is counter-intuitive and hopefully we can help you make some sense out of these types of things.  We've all struggled and come up short more times than any of us can count.  But there is light at the end of the tunnel and you can get there.

[Sancho]

Hi Sunnierdays100
As you can tell from the responses here, you are describing a big aspect of BPD. The term ‘Borderline’ is describes the condition as on the border between psychosis and neurosis. I think this makes it easier to understand that someone with BPD can have a strong conviction that things have happened – when you know for sure this is not the case.

It' s an incredibly difficult position to be in regarding a counselling situation. I have been thinking about it and I think the value might depend on how the counsellor picks up on the actual situation. The first step might be to go to a session to see if there will be an opportunity to talk to the counsellor by yourself.

If you decide not to go, DD will probably see this as confirmation of all that she believes to be true is true!
 
If you decide to go, I think I would try to do the following:
a)   talk as little as possible myself. I think a good counsellor should be able to pick up on the real situation if DD talks enough. Inconsistencies etc are more likely to become obvious the more DD is allowed to talk.
b)   If I needed to respond I would be  brief and use general affirmation as much as possible. General statements such as ‘people often have different recollections of particular events, and my DD and I certainly do. I suppose this is how memory works’.
c)   Try to make general statements that are giving a hint of what is happening. For example if DD is always blaming you, accusing you, perhaps flip it with ‘I am glad to be here because I would like to learn how to respond when DD says things like  . . . . . .  to me’.

You are in a difficult situation – one that many here would understand. Sending thoughts to you that you are able to make the right decision and there is something positive that comes from your decision.

[2much4me]

Welcome.  We have been there. Our daughter, now 20, accused my husband and when I tried to get her help for the delusions, she accused me of witnessing abuse and not stopping it. Over the top stuff she said we did, and then she ran out of the ER and we did not see her for months. She recently came back home and made her dad her "favorite person".  It drove me nuts trying to figure out if she "believed it" or not and our therapist said that's a distinction that only a healthy brain can make but its more muddled in her brain. Part of her is trying to get her way (a tantrum) and part of her limbic system feels it could have happened (feels a threat).  I hope that, as I did, just knowing that this is a common part of the disorder will help you know that there is nothing terrible about you that led her to strike out in this way.  Now when my daughter yells "you guys are going to jail", I offer her the phone to call the police and she moves on to another rant. Until they get help, they will usually lash out in any way they can at a perceived threat as small as asking them a question they don't like. The more it upsets you and you try to defend yourself, the more it reinforces the behavior. My heart goes out to you, I hope you find some relief knowing you are not alone, its an extremely difficult situation.

[2much4me]

Welcome.  We have been there. Our daughter, now 20, accused my husband of abuse and when I tried to get her help for the delusions, she accused me of witnessing abuse and not stopping it. I tried to get her a psych eval but she ran out of the ER and we did not see her for months. She came back home 18 months later and started acting like her Dad was the greatest thing since sliced bread with no acknowlegment of what she did to him.  It drove me nuts trying to figure out if she "believed it" or not and our therapist said that's a distinction that only a healthy brain can make but its more muddled in her brain. Part of her is trying to get her way (a tantrum) and part of her limbic system feels it could have happened (feels threat).  I hope that, as I did, just knowing that this is a common part of the disorder will help you know that there is nothing terrible about you that led her to strike out in this way.  Now when my daughter yells "you guys are going to jail", I offer her the phone to call the police and she moves on to another rant. Until they get help, they will usually lash out in any way they can at any perceived slight. The more it upsets me and I try to defend myself, the more it reinforces the behavior. My heart goes out to you, I hope you find some relief knowing you are not alone, its an extremely difficult situation.

[TheNana]

Oh my! This is so familiar to me. My adult child insists on things of this nature as well. I try to understand why she still sees me as a safe place in which I believe I am but insist that I am abusive for setting boundaries. There is no "perfect" parent. It hurts my heart...

[TheNana]

Yes, exactly... defending yourself becomes more ammo for her to insist I am abusive and wants me to worry that she would rather wander the streets as if homeless because I did not agree to continue housing 2 more people free of rent. They belittled what I shared, it is not a castle and I am struggling financially myself. I am not alone, Thank you! What you shared is like if you saw and heard our conversations.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[BPDstinks]

Hi, The Nana!  I have poured over pictures (I just found this HUGE card pwBPD gave me when she was little, saying "to my favorite Mama", we were SOOO close; I acknowledge we had family arguments (like...go clean your room) however, nothing even "remotely" abusive remotely comes to mind; if anything, outsiders thought we were too "lax"; all I can say, from my research and support group, BPD is a beast

[TheNana]

That is also familiar! Others have voiced I was too "Lax".  I let them at a young age have a lot.  I encouraged independence and strength. I birthed 3 males and I always feared that there would be difficulty with identities because I was an unwed single mother.

[BPDstinks]

I feel that as time (going on 3 solid years) passes, I appear non-chalant, in my discussion, however, that is only because (I see a therapist who specializes in parents of children with BPD!), after 2 years, I decided I want joy in my life....I am tired of being sad!  I work very hard to my mental health; I have made it clear the door IS open....I think what is most befuddling, if pwBPD does not want to be with ME, I must accept that, however, her father, sister and beautiful nieces did nothing....to add more oddness to the mix, she now associates with my mother (her grandmother) who she once despised and begged to have nothing to do with (I AM grateful for that association, as my mother fills me in on pwBPD (though, my mother insists is is not BPD, just an "attitude" (despite documentation stating otherwise, !)