What is the secret to stop being attacked?

[SuperDaddy]

Hi CC43,

Thanks for replying. Yes, she is constantly stressed there in her mom's house because of two reasons. One is that she has trouble dealing with the kids without my help, so she ends up not sleeping enough. The other reason is that her mother, who is too controlling, becomes "obsessed with her and the kids," and that makes her feel anxious/stressed. In both cases, she blames me for not allowing her to return home. I have been with our 2-year-old for many days, more than 50%, but I can't bring the newborn because of breastfeeding, and the baby has digestive problems with formulas.

I can't accept her here because she is being aggressive and hasn't started any treatment yet. So yesterday I said, "I can go over there and take care of the kids while sleeping on the couch while you sleep by yourself in the room, but not here." So she only read the last part, "not here," and cursed at me in uppercase text. However, the next morning she said, "I'm sorry; you really don't attack me, so I should not do that."

I need to have some contact with her because of the kids and money and because I'm trying to promote treatments for her, but yes, it helps to keep the conversations at the minimum needed.

In my view, the disorder forces her to seek conflict to feel better, and I'm the only safe target to do that (like you said), but I'm hoping that over time, if I consistently don't engage and step back, then she might rethink her attitude and become less conditioned to do it.

Currently, she has adopted a posture of "You don't accept me as your wife, so I won't be your girlfriend either." But I haven't disputed this view. I have been just waiting for her to drop the attitude so that we can have some warmth from our interactions again, perhaps.

Though she gets angry every day because she thinks it is selfish of me to not bring her back for at least a weekend to help her feel better. But I don't want to put my peace at risk, and I can't be sure if she would keep her word and return to her mom's after the weekend.

I see that she is feeling rejected, and probably I could soothe her with affection and give some reassurance, but I'm not sure if it is right to be affectionate with her while she isn't being with me. I mean, instead of giving my affection for free, I would like her to deserve it somehow. What do you think? Should I try to just give it unconditionally?

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[Pook075]

Hi Pook075,

I completely understand the part that you had to let go of the hurt, anger, sadness, etc. The part that I did not understand was how you switched from being neutral/indifferent to your ex to "loving her." Talking once every 2-3 months is understandable. What I did not understand is where the love emerged from. But maybe it's because you had many good years together and still have good memories?

Maybe that's because, unlike my ex-wives, your ex didn't do further harm after the separation. I'm assuming she didn't keep trying to rob you of your property, money, and kids?

My situation was different, at least partially due to how I responded.  At first I stood for my marriage, but over time I realized that it was over and I could still love her as a person...without the romantic feelings attached.  We were married for 23 years (technically 25 since we were separated for two years waiting for the divorce), plus we dated several years before that.  

So I spent almost my entire adult life caring for this person, being there for her, raising kids together, etc.

Like you, we had good and bad memories...but for me the good far outweighed anything else.  And I didn't know what to do with that, all those vacations and favorite restaurants and hobbies, etc.  Then there were the million inside jokes you have with your partner, the TV shows you loved together, the moments in time that the world changed, etc.  How do you just erase all of that and pretend that it didn't matter?

Ultimately, we divorced without attorneys and agreed to a 50/50 split.  The judge even warned my wife, are you sure you want to do this without counsel and waive your rights?  If your husband doesn't do as he verbally promised, the court will have no recourse.  I thought for sure she'd at least think about it, but she declined and said she trusted me to do what's right.  The judge was perplexed but continued.

Mind you, I've never heard a story like that anywhere from a BPD divorce, they're almost always ugly and drawn out.  To me though, making peace with my ex was more important than money and it's what served our young adult kids the best.  

My experiences are basically impossible according to this site, and it's because BPDs explode, we explode back, and it's scorched earth from there on out.  I fortunately was able to take a different path though and I'm very thankful for it.

If I share my story, you'll note it's completely different than yours. The story of both of my ex-wives is very similar, with a gap of 7 years between both divorces. The second ex actually wrote down and copied the steps of the first ex, as she wanted to gain the same advantages.

I was the one who gave up on the relationship, simply because I was not attracted to them anymore and gave up on making it work. However, they got angry that I was having my own life, so they took advantage of the fact that we were still living together, in my inherited property, to apply a scam targeting financial advantages.

Both were physically violent when feeling rejected and made false criminal accusations against me of domestic violence when, in reality, I was the one being spanked. I had some bruises and bites, but DV laws here only serve women. After separation, they kept digging up the old archived false accusations to gain further advantages and for vindictive reasons (because I had built a new family). In total I got acquitted from more than 10 false accusations (because there was no proof and their facts were incoherent), but meanwhile their goal of getting advantages in courts was accomplished, nevertheless. And I got years of unnecessary stress and lost lots of money to lawyers.

They also told endless lies in court to take financial advantage, and both do parental alienation of the kids. I met my first ex more than 10 years later, in court, and she was still angry like a dog, unprovoked. But the real reason that sustains their behavior is that they can use the kids to get financial advantage. It is not because of any negative interaction or reaction of mine. Both still live on my property, for free, despite having no rights. All of that because courts are extremely slow and unreliable. Also, because I am exhausted of it and lack the energy to keep fighting.

I'm guessing you would not love those ex-wives, would you?

If I somehow did love my ex-wives and was "always there for them," then that could be helpful, perhaps with their anger management. Yet, I don't think that would lead to any sort of fair agreement regarding pension, property, or parenting time. Because they are completely self-centered and opportunistic. Actually, shortly after the separation, I tried this. But being close and helpful was only working for their goals, not for mine. So I began to be just diplomatic, but they always wanted more contact and proximity. And that brought me jealousy troubles in my new relationship, understandably.

A BPDs biggest fear is abandonment or being rejected, so you inadvertently made their worst fears come true.  And in retaliation, it went about as badly as it could have.  That's 99.9% of the stories here so it's not like you did anything wrong.  But at the same time here, there's definitely a lesson for you on marriage #3.  It doesn't have to be scorched Earth and a massive legal battle.

Even if you can't work things out, give her the validation that she needs.  That's what I found with my ex, even though it was clearly over, I could honestly say I love you to her and mean it.  I do want her to have a great life and I do want her to find happiness.  It's just so much easier as friends than enemies.

However, with my current wife, things are different, because she has a better character (not perfect, but not a scammer either). In case we did follow different paths, I don't think she would be my enemy at all.

Currently I'm being cold with her. I was being lovable and helpful, but the past keeps being brought up in our conversations by both of us, and it doesn't go well because both of us have resentments about the past.

If she had left when I asked for it, then we would not have had such bad memories, but instead she turned my life into hell for a long period while refusing to leave. And I don't want to let go of my resentment, because I already have this tendency to let go too easily, but now I need to make sure it never happens again. I kind of feel threatened by the possibility of forgetting the past, bringing her back, and then going through all of it again.

I've mentioned that religion played a bit part in my journey here.  I've tried to avoid talking about that too much since this is a secular conversation, but there's a theme in the Bible indicating that the past is dead.  I've held onto that because we can't change the past, we can't fix our mistakes, and focusing on it can only bring hardship.

Think about it, even if it's an incredible memory, we think, "Why can't life be like that today?"

When the BPDs in my life bring up the past, I'll speak very briefly on it and apologize that I couldn't meet their needs better back then.  I'll say that I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes, and that I try to learn and grow from those mistakes.  But then I'm finished talking about it because I'm not going to dwell on it or try to relive it.  We literally can't do anything about it, so why focus on it at all?  Just apologize and move on.

Your wife might still bring up the past often, but you have to see above that and steer away from it.  That mindset is so toxic for so many reasons and it brings back trauma.  BPDs are remembering their feelings of the bad stuff, not necessarily what happened or who said what.  So apologize for hurting their feelings and let it rest.

So I want to hold on to the memories until her distorted views are reversed by treatment (if that ever happens). Once I see that her attitude has changed, then I'll be cool with leaving the past behind and giving us (her) a new chance. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I still think we will have a success story. I have a secret, which I can't share here because it could be interpreted as medical guidance, but this is the reason why I still have hope. She will go through two specific drug treatments, which should completely change her mood and compulsions in less than two months. Then DBT will do the rest of the job, unwinding her problematic patterns.

For so many years I have been putting hope in possible ways of dealing with BPD, so I have always been overoptimistic. However, this time my hopes are grounded in BPD scientific studies and case reports.

I wish you luck and I hope the medical treatments work out.  Just remember that you have a part to play as well and you have more control than anyone over her mindset.  Help her let go of fears and insecurities by letting her see that you're there for her.  It makes a world of difference long term.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Indeed, the fact that you have good memories make all of the difference. I don't have any good memories of past wives. We didn't ever have any good vacations together, we didn't have any favourite restaurant and we didn't ever do any hobbies together. The good memories I have are about my kids only.

There were a few vacations that I took with my first wife before having kids, but all of them were painful and very restricted because of her jealousy, her self-image problems, and her OCD problems. After having kids, having vacations became impossible. First wife was overly stressed and hostile all the time. The second wife was always pathologically jealous about my stepkids. Third wife is cool but has specific phobias that make it impossible for us to travel.

Hopefully, her BPD treatment will address her anxiety disorders as well. It's obvious to me that she is unconsciously attached to traumatic memories because of her need to feel in an emergency situation, so that her EOS is activated. Specific phobias are easy to treat, but she keeps sabotaging the treatment. Once her EOS is working, she will finally be ready to get cured and then whatever treatment she does will work (such as exposure treatment, hypnotherapy, EMDR, or treatments that use psychedelic drugs).

My experiences are basically impossible according to this site, and it's because BPDs explode, we explode back, and it's scorched earth from there on out.  I fortunately was able to take a different path though and I'm very thankful for it.

We explode back? No, I don't do that. I have never messed up things because of my temper. My self-control is extreme, and I have the temperament of a calculator.  At work, in situations of pressure, people have said that the world was ending while I was calm and poundering. But that's because it takes a lot more to get me stressed. And even when stressed I can act peacefully.

It's true that I couldn't express love for my ex-wives since I didn't actually love them (not anymore, at least). But even if I did love them, I'm sure that courts would still be needed to dispute the financial part and parenting time. For instance, with my second ex I have almost always been able to negotiate 50% parenting time, sometimes more, but in courts she always denies it happens and requests the minimum for me, because she wants to have the control and to secure the pension value since she does not quite work.

A BPDs biggest fear is abandonment or being rejected, so you inadvertently made their worst fears come true.  And in retaliation, it went about as badly as it could have.  That's 99.9% of the stories here so it's not like you did anything wrong.

Well, that's true. But how can I end a relationship without triggering her abandonment fears? I don't think this is possible. Therefore, in situations like mine in which their abandonment fears were triggered, I think the best option is to plan everything in advance and use courts for everything early, before they use courts on you. But unfortunately for someone laid-back like me, who is never angry, it's hard to do that.

But at the same time here, there's definitely a lesson for you on marriage #3.  It doesn't have to be scorched Earth and a massive legal battle.

Unfortunately, I disagree. Your ex is not evil, but my ex's are, in a way. It did have to be a massive legal battle, and 80% of the court disputes were started by them. People like them do not accept fair agreements, ever.

With my current wife, however, no legal battle will be needed. Even because we won't separate. But if we did divorce, I know that she would want the best for me. That's why I love her, for the person that she is deep inside.

.. there's a theme in the Bible indicating that the past is dead.  I've held onto that because we can't change the past, we can't fix our mistakes, and focusing on it can only bring hardship.

Well, that's true, but the only way I can be safe now is to keep my memories from the recent past active. Otherwise, I'll just end up in the same situation again.

When the BPDs in my life bring up the past, I'll speak very briefly on it and apologize that I couldn't meet their needs better back then.  I'll say that I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes, and that I try to learn and grow from those mistakes.  But then I'm finished talking about it because I'm not going to dwell on it or try to relive it.  We literally can't do anything about it, so why focus on it at all?  Just apologize and move on.

Your wife might still bring up the past often, but you have to see above that and steer away from it.  That mindset is so toxic for so many reasons and it brings back trauma.  BPDs are remembering their feelings of the bad stuff, not necessarily what happened or who said what.  So apologize for hurting their feelings and let it rest.

I agree that stating we can't change the past and moving on is good. Also, asking them, "Before I answer, please tell me, what is the purpose of this conversation?" is an excellent approach, because they might not have an answer. However, your suggestion to apologize is usually not an option for me.

If she says that I hurt her feelings, I can certainly apologize for that. But if she says that I didn't buy sufficient food or didn't give her enough freedom, this is a distorted view, and apologizing for that could possibly reinforce the distortion.

For instance, she brought up that I was too controlling about the amount of time our boy sees screens. She accuses me of taking away her rights to use screens with her son. Her narrative is not true, because I always tried to talk it out, but she made a war out of it. So I'm afraid that apologizing to that would feed into her narrative?

And there is no point in this discussion because she is actually aware that screens have made him laten his speech. She does not even use screens in her mom's house.

Do you really think we should apologize for everything, even for the distorted narratives?

[CC43]

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional information about the living situation.  The way I see it, your wife remains untreated for BPD, and since others (you and her mom) take care of all her needs (financial, housing, childcare, probably more), the situation is "working" for her.  Even if she's miserable, she's resisting therapy.  Since your wife wants to continue with the status quo using both you and her mom to take care of her, she doesn't really have incentive to change.  Further, she keeps you on edge by attacking you, criticizing you and making demands, making it seem like YOU are the problem.  Since you "tolerate" her attacks by not withdrawing attention/support, she's basically incentivized to keep at it.  In her world, it's OK to be petulant, needy, angry and accusatory.  (I know this because the pwBPD in my life lived in a world with upside down incentives--the worse she acted, the more money she got!).  Meanwhile, you're trying absolutely everything to make the situation work.  The thing is, it seems to me like you're the only one trying.  Your wife has to work at it too.

I bet that deep down your wife is ashamed--she admits she shouldn't act the way that she does sometimes--but she just doesn't have the emotional resources to make a positive change.  In her world, the only thing she knows is that acting out gets results.  I bet her mom is as tired of her petulance and irritability as you are!  That's probably why grandma comes off as being "too controlling," because your wife probably isn't helping out enough and treats her mom like a servant while being mean.  Yeah, your wife probably thinks she's tired, and as a new mom, she might well be, but for her, feeling tired feels like the end of the world.  She can't "power through" a hard day and put herself to bed at a resonable hour to get the rest she needs.  She can't make a doctor's appointment to address any physical ailments.  She conflates fatigue with emotional abuse by everyone around her.  So she's whiny and complaining and getting her mom to do mom-stuff, and the situation is probably incredibly tense.  Your wife is tired of that and wants to move back in with you.  Yet she holds YOU responsible, while avoiding taking any responsibility for herself and her behavior.

The issue is, if your wife moves back with you, nothing changes.  I went through a series of moving in/out/in/out/in/out with the pwBPD in my life.  I've literally lost count of the number of moves.  Basically she'd run from her problems by changing up her living situation, while trying to "punish" the offending roommates with her absence.  Little did she know that her roommates were relieved for her to leave.  Sadly, the only way she could realize that the problem was with her (and not with the people who took care of her) was to hit bottom.  For as long as she was living with her caretakers, she thought THEY were the problem.  Only by living in the "real" adult world was she forced to confront reality:  that her neediness, dysfunction, moodiness, accusations and angry outbursts are her problem and responsibility, and she needs therapy to learn to cope.  But for as long as you (and her mom) "enable" her dysfunction, she will continue, because that's all she knows.  Let me guess, she thinks she's victimized by everyone around her, right?  That renders her powerless over her own life.  She doesn't feel responsible.  She thinks everyone else should change, not her.  And she's upset by this, because her expectations of others to cater to her insatiable needs remain unmet.  Does that sound about right?

[Pook075]

Do you really think we should apologize for everything, even for the distorted narratives?

I think we should apologize for feelings and facts.  If I did something wrong, I'll say I'm wrong.  Or if I hurt my ex's feelings, I will apologize for her feeling upset and state that it wasn't my intention to hurt her or upset her.

However, I don't apologize for distorted narratives and nobody should.

In that same moment where you're getting a distorted narrative though, you can apologize for how she's feeling and make it known that you can see her frustration.  That can sometimes end the rant without actually agreeing about anything.