It may be over

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

If you give in here and she pursues her desires, what happens when that relationship is not enough?  Where's the limit?  Three partners?  Five?  Ten?

Exactly.  Right now it seems her desire is to be able to fool around and explore as she pleases but still maintain the stability of marriage.  There is absolutely no way that could ever work for me.  The only situation where I would ever consider an open marriage is if the third person had something I could not provide (a woman, in this case) AND was a stable relationship.  Given that my W's most stable relationship in her whole life has been me (by a very long shot) and our relationship is not very stable, there is ZERO chance she could have a stable relationship with another unless she had breakthrough success with therapy.  But such breakthrough success would mean she is in control of her emotions, and thus her desire to be with others would be controllable.  So really, there is ZERO chance any kind of an open relationship within this marriage can work for me.   As much as I try to keep an open mind about things, this is a boundary I cannot cross. 

I guarantee to almost certainty that if she were to enter a physical relationship with this woman, drama would ensue almost immediately, that drama would then be projected to me and the kids, and somehow I would be blamed for her extra marital affair falling apart. 

My current question for myself is do I state that boundary directly now, or trust that she understands my boundary already and simply take action when/if it is crossed?  In a healthy relationship, I think an extra marital affair is a boundary that does not have to be stated.

[maxsterling]

If you give in here and she pursues her desires, what happens when that relationship is not enough?  Where's the limit?  Three partners?  Five?  Ten?

Exactly.  Right now it seems her desire is to be able to fool around and explore as she pleases but still maintain the stability of marriage.  There is absolutely no way that could ever work for me.  The only situation where I would ever consider an open marriage is if the third person had something I could not provide (a woman, in this case) AND was a stable relationship.  Given that my W's most stable relationship in her whole life has been me (by a very long shot) and our relationship is not very stable, there is ZERO chance she could have a stable relationship with another unless she had breakthrough success with therapy.  But such breakthrough success would mean she is in control of her emotions, and thus her desire to be with others would be controllable.  So really, there is ZERO chance any kind of an open relationship within this marriage can work for me.   As much as I try to keep an open mind about things, this is a boundary I cannot cross. 

I guarantee to almost certainty that if she were to enter a physical relationship with this woman, drama would ensue almost immediately, that drama would then be projected to me and the kids, and somehow I would be blamed for her extra marital affair falling apart. 

My current question for myself is do I state that boundary directly now, or trust that she understands my boundary already and simply take action when/if it is crossed?  In a healthy relationship, I think an extra marital affair is a boundary that does not have to be stated.

[Notwendy]

So, Max, assuming she is only looking for a fling, not a long term partner, and she may do this no matter what you say- how will you handle this?

Remember - this is about you, not her.

I don't get the sense you'd leave her, considering her condition and the impact it would have on your family right now.

Sounds like in her own thinking, monogamy means long term comitment. That's with you. Somehow she is thinking that does not exclude flings.

I think she also means monogamy for you. After all, you are the one who can make platonic friends, but she "just can't". Note- her "explanation" is from victim perspective. It's her trauma, it's that she can't make friends, she's lonely, she's getting older--- it's not her fault. It also sounds like you buy into this too- it isn't her fault she's like this. In her mind she needs this to feel better.

I have heard a lot of justifications from BPD mother for her behavior. "It's because of the (emotional) pain" "it's because of something in the past and when she's obsessed with something she believes she needs, she's determined to do it. She could come up with justifications for wanting to do something self destructive or hurtful that somehow made this not her fault.

Natural consequences may be the only lesson here. Your wife has difficulty with all relationships, and so even the "flings" would be complicated. This other woman sounds like she has her own issues. I don't condone adultery, but if your wife is going to do it, I think it would become another disappointing attempt to fill her emotional needs.

You keep to your own standards for yourself, so your integrity is intact.

[Notwendy]

My current question for myself is do I state that boundary directly now, or trust that she understands my boundary already and simply take action when/if it is crossed?  In a healthy relationship, I think an extra marital affair is a boundary that does not have to be stated.

Remember boundaries are about you. Yes, say it so there's no assumptions on her part where you stand. It has to be a firm boundary. Fuzzy ones don't work. You can't say "no adultery unless ....". You have to be firm about your boundary for yourself. It has to be a firm no for you. 

Also don't make statements about consequences you can't keep. Something like "if you do this, the marriage is over". I don't think you are at this point yet.

I stated this in earlier posts.  State the boundary in "I" terms, and make it concise and direct. "Monogamy is a firm value for me in a marriage. I do not agree with having an open marriage. I also know I can not control your actions" Then you stop the discussion. There's nothing else to say at this point.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Rowdy ,

The problem I have with your suggestion is the way the majority of bpd persons mind works. If you put one little seed in their mind something that can dysregulated them, it can end up like a runaway train. The scenarios that play out in their heads become their reality. I’m not sure how long your relationships have lasted, but from my own personal experience and many others on here, if you did something they perceived as a slight towards them 20 years ago, even though they got the complete wrong end of the stick, you’ve explained tirelessly that they misunderstood or misread the words/situation/look/sound you made, it doesn’t matter what you say or do their mind is made up, and that thing that happened 20 years ago, no matter how insignificant or misunderstood that thing was, it will be dragged up time and time again, and it is just another round of ammunition they have in their armour against you.
I completely get where you are coming from and the idea behind it, I just really do not think it is a good idea…… at all.

I see your point, that whatever drama you add to the life of pwBPD, they will stick to it through life and keep talking about it, right? Well, that's not precise.

When they bring up stuff, this is an unconscious attempt to reproduce it and feel themselves in a threatening situation again, but while they do it, they try to avoid the consequences. For instance, the suicide "attempts" are not actually intended to kill. Yes, among all BPD patients that attempt suicide, 10% of them actually die, but this is almost always an accident. A person who actually wants to die doesn't tell anybody about it and rarely fails.

In this video, you can see an example of a girl who tried uncountable suicide attempts until she threw herself in front of a train, and then ... well, she lost a leg but didn't die. A real suicide is not done in this dramatic fashion, and whatever is done targets the head, not the legs.

So, how does this translate to a relationship? The rule is simple: they only go for behaviors in which they don't care about the consequences, or they feel like they have some control over the consequences and can avoid the worst.

If you have a secret affair and she knows it's just for extra adventure, then she will haunt you on that and keep bringing this up for years later. But when there is a clear risk of you leaving her for this other woman, then she will behave like a princess to try to keep you close.

Similarly, if you pretend that you are interested in someone else and you are open about it, and she feels truly threatened by it and feels like any drama would push you further away, then she will make her best effort to please you and make you want to stay.

Then in the future she won't want to create drama over it, because she will be afraid that it could happen again (even knowing that it was fake). Maybe if she feels really safe to talk about it, she may bring it up, maybe when drunk, but not with an aggressive attitude, but just opening up like a normal person does.

All of what I said is confirmed by my 25+ years of experience with 4 different disordered partners, in which BPD was the issue most of the time.

So yes, I think faking a gay affair would have a positive effect on the relationship, as long as she does think that it is real and legitimate. If she feels like it is just a way of pressuring her or taking revenge, then it will backfire.