It may be over

[awakened23]

very good advice and observations in this thread from Wendy and Pete.

sorry hit send early meant to say NotWendy, PeteWitsend, and SuperDaddy

[ForeverDad]

Honestly, my gut is telling me no matter what the progression is here, it will end very badly and my goal is to protect me and the kids from damaging drama.

There is no way to completely protect yourself and especially #1 priority the kids.  That is why so many, after trying so many options and strategies, finally conclude that it is the dysfunctional relationship at the core of everything.  You can't fix the other.  You can't consistently reason with the other's inconsistent moods, feeling and perceptions.

I really tried but failed to hold the marriage together.  That's why I accepted that divorce was the only alternative left for me.  (Even before we separated, when our child was a preschooler, my spouse was threatening to zero my parenting by disappearing with our toddler.)  Not only was I being disparaged and disrespected, I was no longer seen as having any authority.  So I turned to family court which, strangely enough is The Authority in today's society.  It's not optimal and is often far too passive in the face of obvious obstruction and sabotage, but it does limit the damage in many ways.

I was able to establish my own home, a calm and stable one versus the endless conflict and discord of a joint home environment, where my child could experience the contrast between my home and the ex's home, the contrast of my norms versus her, the contrast of normalcy versus whatever happened at the ex's home.  Yes, mine wasn't a perfect example, but it was far better than before.  And it set a limit to the chaos and mayhem.  All for our child to learn from and guide his future decisions.

[maxsterling]

Foreverdad - 

I get the feeling one of these days I will be asking you for exit strategies.  If I had an easy exit strategy, I would have taken it by now.  I’m well aware that W’s dysfunction is at the core of everything, and the best I can hope for is to manage what I can.

A not so small part of me hoped W would cheat with someone who actually has a place she could stay at.  Right now she is 100% dependent on me, incapable of holding a job or managing basic life tasks such as eating.  I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

[ForeverDad]

Frankly, I didn't think, "This is my exit strategy."  While I didn't blunder into it, I'd describe it was all the other options were taken away from me.

Yes, I did record myself so I could try to make a defense, "I recorded to document I wasn't the one making aggressive threats.  If the other was recorded behaving aggressively, that's not my fault."  Strangely, the system didn't care much about that.  My conclusion was that we were seen as bickering and the court assumed that it would decrease after the divorce.  Well, it didn't.  But at least I was able to unwind the marriage and financial connections, leaving only the parenting to continue.

[SuperDaddy]

I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

Yes, that's a hard situation. Do you live in a rented place? I do, and this is an advantage. With that I could convince my wife to leave. She agreed because I was about to leave and end the renting contract, so she would have to leave anyway. But she has her mom's house and a few other close parents.

I was here thinking, what would I do if she didn't have any place to go and I wanted to part ways? I'd probably rent the cheapest possible place for her, and from there I'd let her figure it out. And I mean real cheap, such as just a bed in a shared girls' hostel room or a small place in the slums.

It's hard to understand how your W would really not have anyone to count on. I mean, in a live-or-death situation, I'm imagining some parent would help her out, or an old friend?

Anyway, in your particular case, if your place is rented, then you can just leave and end the contract, leaving her to move into the RV with her other woman. Remember, she is an adult.

Sorry if this sounds too harsh, but it's important to know your options.

[Notwendy]

The striking thing is that if I had those qualities it would be a turn off for my W.  Considering the number of times she has shamed me for being a slob (I’m no worse than the average person, and definitely no worse than W), the number of times she complained about the size of our house, the number of times she complained about me not making enough money, I find this a little suspect

Your wife may be seeking something different in this relationship.

We tend to form relationships with people we meet in our own circle, so it would make sense that my BPD mother would marry someone who was similar to her family members who had stable jobs.

Also, if we want a family, we'd want to be married to someone with similar goals, and capacity to provide and care for them- whether that is by traditional roles or shared ones. Your wife isn't seeking a husband and father- she has you.

In terms of having a poor self image, BPD mother would look to others for her own self image. Having a husband who provided for her helped her to feel valued. She, herself didn't have a lot of accomplishments but being married to someone who had a good job contributed to her self esteem.

BPD mother did not work outside the home. Yet, when a sibling had difficulty with employment and worked a lower paying job, she was very critical of that. I think this could be a reason why your wife is critical of your income, the house. She doesn't think she's enough, so from her own thinking, you aren't either. But this is a reflection of her thinking, not you.

With other people, like female friends, BPD mother tended to seek out people who had less than her. It didn't start out that way. Prior to the "women's movemement" she was similar to her peers who didn't work outside the home, but after that, as women entered the workplace and she didn't- maybe it was harder for her to feel good about herself around women who had careers. Perhaps she chose people who she didn't feel would be challenging to her own self image.

This may be why your wife has chosen someone whose circumstances are less than hers. It's hard to know what is going on. I assume this person put "working in medicine" on the dating website, but not all medical related jobs are high paying. It's also possible she fell on hard times with the divorce. Why she's in this situation is anyone's guess.

[Rowdy]

maxsterling ,

If your wife has no moral compass like PeteWitsend described, then that's big trouble. But hopefully she does have some?

If she were putting me in an uncomfortable position, I would perhaps play around with her by flipping the situation. First, I would pretend to be assuming to be gay and immediately "confess" that I had an online affair with another man. A few days later, I would ask her if it would be ok to meet this person. Just to see her reaction. I'm guessing she would say no and then would propose ending her own affair. But for this to work, you would need to do it very well. Perhaps really go into a gay dating site and really talk to another gay man, but of course tell them the truth. I believe they are likely to keep talking to you even knowing the truth. With that you would be able to show some part of that conversation to her. If my wife said yes, then I would actually go out and pretend to be doing stuff with someone else. That would give her some perspective on what she is doing with you.

I really don’t think this is a good idea. If your partner has bpd and you can convince them of something like this, you open yourself up to all sorts of situations that will run through their heads and they will convince themselves that everything that is going on in their head is fact. You then are faced with the consequence of trying to convince them it was all an elaborate plan to try and get them to change their own view point and they just simply won’t believe you. And it will get dragged up in every argument from that moment until eternity.

We spend our lives treading on eggshells trying not to make one wrong move to stop them becoming dysregulated, why on earth would you manufacture a situation that could, or probably would, be unrecoverable from.

I doubt it would make much difference to the disordered person anyway. For example, I asked my ex how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a drug addict that ran off with my drug dealer, would she not fight for the relationship and try and show me how my decision was a bad one. She did agree to some extent but made no difference. In one heated exchange I commented that maybe I should go and f*** a few of her friends before running off with one, which is exactly what she has done, only for her to call me a sick twisted b*stard.

I’m afraid with a pwBPD you will never get them to see the double standards at play.

[Notwendy]

Right now she is 100% dependent on me, incapable of holding a job or managing basic life tasks such as eating.  I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

I understand this situation. I didn't see the whole of it initially. I also wondered why my father didn't divorce her, why he put up with her behavior. I would not have blamed him if he had divorced her.

I didn't see how dependent and low capacity she was as she mostly leaned on him and also she was very invested in keeping up the image of competence. Her behavior was a family secret. I don't blame her- it would have felt shameful to her if anyone truly knew the whole of it. 

Rather than seem appreciative, being dependent also felt shameful to her, and she resented that, and so, doing things for her- which she needed, also enhanced her feeling of incompetence, and at times she'd project that and react to it.

In her later years, I could see just how impaired she was with her BPD. She truly could not function on her own in any capacity. While having boundaries was necessary, how much to disconnect posed a moral dilemma. Even if we have every right to walk away from an abusive situation, how does one leave a completely dependent person who can not function to fend for themselves?

Yet, like the bridge story, we also don't have to go over the edge with them either. Where's the balance? 

I don't have an answer. These are complicated situations and different for everyone. I don't think there's one right or one wrong way. It would be easier to leave if your wife found someone else to stay with- that way, you'd know she'd not be on her own. So far, that isn't happening. Maybe one day, divorce would be a choice for you, maybe not. For now the issue is the one at hand- her wanting to meet up with a woman and what happens with that.

[SuperDaddy]

I really don’t think this is a good idea.
...
For example, I asked my ex how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a drug addict that ran off with my drug dealer, would she not fight for the relationship and try and show me how my decision was a bad one.

I’m afraid with a pwBPD you will never get them to see the double standards at play.

What you tried is completely different from what I suggested. You just brought a hypothetical situation to the conversation, which doesn't work at all. And then you made kind of a threat, which just fills into the drama and has a detrimental effect.

What I said is to just let her fall into the trap of believing for a while that you are actually doing the thing. I have done this a few times in different relationships and circumstances, and it has always worked in making them regret their past actions. In my experience, it works perfectly in making them drop the double standards. They are much more sensible, so they learn fast from just "a fabricated sample" how it feels to be on the other side.

[Rowdy]

What you tried is completely different from what I suggested. You just brought a hypothetical situation to the conversation, which doesn't work at all. And then you made kind of a threat, which just fills into the drama and has a detrimental effect.

What I said is to just let her fall into the trap of believing for a while that you are actually doing the thing. I have done this a few times in different relationships and circumstances, and it has always worked in making them regret their past actions. In my experience, it works perfectly in making them drop the double standards. They are much more sensible, so they learn fast from just "a fabricated sample" how it feels to be on the other side.

oh yeh I agree with you. What I said was completely wrong, triggering and definitely not the right way to go about things. But it highlights the lack of accountability and the double standards. But at the time I’d said those things I wasn’t even aware bpd was a thing.

The problem I have with your suggestion is the way the majority of bpd persons mind works. If you put one little seed in their mind something that can dysregulated them, it can end up like a runaway train. The scenarios that play out in their heads become their reality. I’m not sure how long your relationships have lasted, but from my own personal experience and many others on here, if you did something they perceived as a slight towards them 20 years ago, even though they got the complete wrong end of the stick, you’ve explained tirelessly that they misunderstood or misread the words/situation/look/sound you made, it doesn’t matter what you say or do their mind is made up, and that thing that happened 20 years ago, no matter how insignificant or misunderstood that thing was, it will be dragged up time and time again, and it is just another round of ammunition they have in their armour against you.
I completely get where you are coming from and the idea behind it, I just really do not think it is a good idea…… at all.

[Notwendy]

Another thought on your wife's dependency on you and shame.

Does your wife "mask" in social situations? My BPD mother had an entirely different persona in public. Charming, intelligent, seemingly competent. Nobody would have had a clue.

I felt envious that other people got the "good side" of her, but then I realized it was the mask that hid the parts of her that she felt shame about. It wasn't real. We got the real side of her, as difficult as it was sometimes.

She had become friends with a woman about my age. By then, I knew that if someone was in her circle, that wasn't my place, so I didn't have contact with this person. She needed to have a separate world than family, because, we saw the bigger picture. I contacted her when my mother passed away and she shared memories of the good times they had together.

One one hand, this was crushing. She and my mother did things together that I wished my mother could have done with me. On the other hand, I knew she couldn't, because, I knew her in a different context. With this person, BPD mother could present the part of her she chose to let her see.

I think this is what your wife is seeking. She is completely dependent on you and knows she needs you, but that also triggers her shame and she feels resentful. You've seen the larger picture. The good and the not so good. But that's all of her.

Your wife isn't seeking to replace you or find another husband. It's actually because she has you that she can be something different to someone else. It also might appear that my BPD mother had found a "replacement daughter" but she wasn't seeking what she already had. This was a relationship that met an emotional need for her.

On this dating site, your wife can be whoever she chooses other people to see. There's no history with this woman, so there's no shame. At least not yet. If this woman has less materially than she does, she doesn't feel less than her. She may even feel superior to her. This person is showing her attraction, admiration.

Your wife needs you but this triggers her shame. She doesn't "need" this other woman. She can reinvent herself with her. While you might feel jealousy, that this woman is getting the "good side"- what she's getting isn't real, even if it appears that way to you. It may meet some need of your wife but it can't give her real love because the woman isn't getting the "real her". How long this lasts, one can't tell. But you're the real person to her and at some level your wife knows that, even if it shame triggers her.

[maxsterling]

Wendy, If we did not have small kids I would probably say this isn’t working out and that both of us would be better with our own space, and then help her find a place if she wanted.  More than likely, she would move with friends or family out of state.  This has nothing to do wit my feelings towards her, it’s more about recognizing the need to move on being in both of our best interests.

But the kids keep her here, as I would not agree to her leaving the state with the kids.  And she does have a role as a mother, however dysfunctional at times.  A 50/50 parenting time would be ideal if it could be maintained.  That will certainly take effort from me to ensure the kids are provided for when they are not with me.  Kids with me 100% of the time would be emotionally difficult on them.  I know there are other arrangements, but these all present similar problems.

Either way, if she wants to be with women or does not want to have a monogamous marriage, I can’t do anything about those desires.  Neither would work for me given the already stressful nature of this r/s.  If it came down to it, I would say that we have to find a way to separate.

Superdaddy -  

I understand what you are saying.  In my case, my W is cerebral enough and had enough therapy in her life to know the problems she is creating are her own.  That doesn’t stop her from projecting, but if I were to “play along” for awhile in hopes she would realize the problems she is creating, it would serve no end because deep down she already knows she is the source.

[PeteWitsend]

Yes, my BPD mother would say this too. "All families fight", as if what we saw going on at home was normal.

This behavior wasn't typical or normal.

I noticed, and your later comment about having a public mask made me think of this, that BPDxw would often adopt this really fake persona sometimes.  Like... "1960's Sitcom Housewife" and parrot little folksy sayings and colloquialisms that would get on my nerves, knowing how awful she was behind the scenes. 

The bizarre part was she was not born here and came over here later in life, so I don't know where she picked this up, but I figure the instinct to "mask" or fake it and adopt the persona of having it all together must've been strong in her for some reason.  But she was painfully insecure in ways I probably didn't even understand and could not relate to.  I mean, sure there were times in my life I was not who I wanted to be, and it sucked, but I feel like as an adult, you move past that... you don't let some incident when you were 14 influence how you behave for the rest of your life!

...Your wife isn't seeking to replace you or find another husband. It's actually because she has you that she can be something different to someone else. It also might appear that my BPD mother had found a "replacement daughter" but she wasn't seeking what she already had. This was a relationship that met an emotional need for her.

This is a good point, and I agree with this.  Their actual needs aren't often communicated clearly (perhaps because they would reveal too much about the pwBPD) so they go about trying to get those needs met in ways that seem illogical or inconsistent with the things they tell the non-disordered people in their lives.

It's a good response to this inconsistency max mentioned:

The striking thing is that if I had those qualities it would be a turn off for my W.  Considering the number of times she has shamed me for being a slob (I’m no worse than the average person, and definitely no worse than W), the number of times she complained about the size of our house, the number of times she complained about me not making enough money, I find this a little suspect.

I learned you have to read between the lines with a pwBPD a lot of the time.  They'll tell you they want vanilla, then get mad when you bring them vanilla and ask where the chocolate is.  and you have to realize what's really going on is the "bottomless pit" talking... they just need you to be paying attention or waiting on them, or they get insecure and then lash out in their usual way.  Or they decide someone else waiting on them is what they want at that moment, and so they seek out some other contact.  Who knows?  The bottomless pit decided they needed more attention than you could provide maybe?  They'll never tell you directly, and it's up to you to be the adult and draw the line.  And if they don't heed that, then you decide how you'll handle it.   

[Notwendy]

Wendy, If we did not have small kids I would probably say this isn’t working out and that both of us would be better with our own space, and then help her find a place if she wanted.  More than likely, she would move with friends or family out of state.  This has nothing to do wit my feelings towards her, it’s more about recognizing the need to move on being in both of our best interests.


Either way, if she wants to be with women or does not want to have a monogamous marriage, I can’t do anything about those desires.  Neither would work for me given the already stressful nature of this r/s.  If it came down to it, I would say that we have to find a way to separate.

I doubt her pursuit of this idea- being with a woman- is going to pan out to become much of anything. She has too much at stake, and she knows it. I could be wrong but a lot of what my BPD mother said she was going to do didn't.

[ForeverDad]

I don't recall the ages of your children, but I recall how my family court and even my Custody Evaluator viewed parenting schedules.  For children up to preteen years both advocated equal time for co-parenting.

Because our child exchanges were places for my ex to play games posing as the aggrieved mother, I wanted exchanges as far apart as possible.  With equal time being discussed and the schedules designed across two weeks, I favored alternating weeks.  My CE, a child psychologist, corrected me.  He said a better schedule for children until at least 10 years old was two exchanges per week and described the 2-2-3 schedule (or 2-2-5-5 across two weeks).  One parent would get Mon-Tue overnights, the other Wed-Thu overnights and they would alternate Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  I decided the second half of the week would be best for me since then I could review my child's school assignments and be sure they were done each week.

And my lawyer agreed, he asked me whether I wanted the court to think I felt my child didn't need more frequent time with me.  Um, not that!  As it turned out, even when I got majority time during the school year at age 12, we continued with 2-2-3 during summers until he was finished school and aged out of the system.

I also advocate for the children to have access to school counselors.  My son had regular counseling sessions until he was 12, starting at age 3 with play therapy.

[PeteWitsend]

Really helpful advice here.  The “conversion” right now is as follows:

- i should have known she was this way when I married her.
- i am depriving her of who she is.
- she doesn’t want to hurt me or break up our family.
- I don’t go along with this because I have been brainwashed by society for having traditional monogamy views.
- if i don’t go along with this I am controlling her and she might as well kill herself.
-if I file for divorce she won’t except 50/50 parenting time and if that is awarded she might as well kill herself

....

One more thought: given your statements indicating you're contemplating an end to this marriage, you should absolutely be preserving evidence of these conversations, especially if they're in emails or texts, or some format that could corroborate what's being said.  If these conversations are all verbal, try to record some of them and save the recordings.  If not, at least write down the dates they occurred and who said what. 

If it comes down to it, and you or she files for divorce, it sounds like she'll fight for custody.  It's a bit of a red flag she made the comment about 50/50 custody.  It could very well show she's been thinking about this already. 

In my state, if you're at 50/50, I don't think either party is liable to pay the other party child support.  Sounds like she knows that.  A judge could still order it, but it's not automatic.  Also in my state, the non-custodial parent (i.e. the parent with less than 50% parenting time) gets a default possession schedule that amounts to around 35% of the time, sometimes more, depending on how holidays and school breaks go.  So if you're not going to be the primary custodial parent, you'll have to fight for 50/50, and - barring clear evidence one parent is not fit - that's a he said/she said, subjective fight.  However, the fact that your wife is willing to blow up the marriage to go have an affair with some other woman is a pretty strong weight in your favor. 

If this is against your values and you are not okay with it, absolutely do not allow it.  And keep a record of it. 

If you are already consenting for her to have a side piece and go on dates, you're going to have a much harder time in court. 

It sounds like from your first post you agreed she could go meet with this person more as a friend, and there wasn't a romantic interest there, but then she blindsided you with the request to have an open marriage.  I think you need to make clear - ideally in writing - that you're not okay with this, you misunderstood what she was looking for, you're not okay with an open relationship, and not consenting to it. 

[maxsterling]

Pete - a valid concern, but in my case I am not too worried about this.  My W can’t hold it together under any kind of stress, especially to any authority.  She also would be afraid to ask for more than 50/50 because she knows that if she did it would put her life under a lens to which she finds risky considering her history of mental hospitals, unemployment, and unstable relationships.

In fact, she cites this as a way I “control” her.  In her mind, me saying that I would want 50/50 custody forces her to remain in the marriage because she can’t accept anything less than 100% and that if she challenges she knows she will lose because the court is “sexist”.  She then claims her only solutions is to “kill herself”.

My hope would be to find a way for her to be okay with 50/50 until the raw emotions fade and reality kicks in.  After that, things either remain that way or have worked themselves out naturally.  I have zero worries that a court would find a way to give me less than 50% parenting time.

[ForeverDad]

While your spouse is certainly different than my ex, BPD exists across a broad spectrum, let me explain something I had noticed in my case over the years...

I had been married over a decade and watched my hard working spouse gradually display more and more poor behaviors, more of the behaviors that fit the Borderline traits.  Little did I realize it, but when I came up with the idea for her to feel better with a child, it made our marriage worse.  As I look back, she unconsciously perceived me morph from a husband to a father, triggering her childhood FOO of an abuser stepfather and a complicit mother.  Our marriage imploded before our child was 4 years old.

As I stated above, she was hard working all those years.  But she stopped working and became a SAHM once she was a mother.  Home life became filled with her arguments, rants and rages like never before.  In the final months she was moaning and groaning so much, slamming doors and locking herself in with our child at night.  Never could I ever imagine she could dig herself out.

Then we separated.  Suddenly, she morphed again.  I never heard her moaning and groaning again.  It's been two decades and she went back to work and has supported herself over the years.  Yes, there was short term spousal support and child support that helped her until I was awarded majority time, but apparently her financial life worked out.  She's still what I consider somewhat dysfunctional in relationships but otherwise she is functional enough to get things done in her life.

Might your spouse be of that sort, where she might do better post-marriage than she leads you to expect?  Could the support you've provided for years be allowing her to let herself remain financially unproductive and claiming to be helpless and dependent?

Maybe she can't take care of herself.  That might be so.  But isn't it possible she can take better care of herself if/when she has to?  Just a thought.

[maxsterling]

Well, i certainly hope so.  But - she is 50 and the longest she has held onto any job - any - is maybe 2 years.  She was given permanent SSDI disability before she turned 30 - and that is jot easy to get.  So someone at some point before the age of 30 determined that she was unlikely to be able to support herself financially - ever.  Could she maintain an income without me?  I don’t  know, but her history says no.