Not accommodating and being conditionally present in the relationship

[SuperDaddy]

Ok, this is about reaching the best dynamic for a relationship with your BPD intimate partner.

I see so many people here saying they become completely agreeable with their BPD partners and always try to be kind, often adopting a passive role to avoid their partner's anger.

What I find curious about this is that the guidance given by dating coaches is the opposite. They all tell you to move away from being a "nice guy". They tell you that putting up too much effort will not be rewarded and making them the center of your life will backfire. And the advice is also for during the relationship (to keep them interested in you). A good example is the The33Secrets channel.

And here is a 1-minute video that summarizes the concept of accommodation:

What Women Say vs What They Respond To

Here is the full transcript of the video:

>> What do women really want?
>> I don't care what they want. I only care what they respond to. See, my focus is a little bit different from your other guests. There's what women say they want. There's what women think they want. And then there's what they actually respond to. I'm interested in what works on the street when it's time to date and mate. And what women actually respond to is not what they say they want.
>> So, what do they respond to? they really respond to a guy who's a challenge, a guy who's a question mark, a guy who keeps them guessing. You see, in the beginning, the less attractive you are physically, the more you have to rely on your attitude. And that's what I wrote my book for. I wrote my book for the averagel looking, even ugly guy who goes out there in the real world and tries to be a nice guy, gets his head kicked in.
>> So, no more Mr. Nice Guy.
>> You can be pleasant. You see, we we got to define our terms. By nice, I mean accommodating. When you accommodate, you get what the commode gets. You get the crapola.

Now it's worth highlighting the last sentence: "When you accommodate, you get what the commode gets. You get the crapola."

But is this scientific? Certainly, yes. There is lots of evidence to validate the idea:

• Self-reported mate preferences often fail to predict actual attraction in live interactions:
  Sex Differences in Mate Preferences Revisited: Do People Know What They Initially Desire in a Romantic Partner? (Eastwick & Finkel, Psychological Science)
  
• Further evidence that ideals stated before dating do not predict romantic desire during speed dating:
  Speed-Dating: A Powerful and Flexible Paradigm for Studying Romantic Relationship Initiation (Finkel et al.)
  
• Uncertainty about whether a man likes a woman can increase her attraction to him:
  Uncertainty Can Enhance Romantic Attraction (Whitchurch, Wilson & Gilbert, Psychological Science)
  
• Romantic uncertainty and desire amplification in early-stage attraction:
  Being Chosen Versus Being Rejected: Effects of Romantic Uncertainty on Attraction (Whitchurch et al.)
  
• Playing hard to get and selectivity increasing perceived desirability:
  The Effects of Playing Hard to Get on Interpersonal Attraction (Walster et al.)
  
• Scarcity and perceived mate value effects in attraction:
  Scarcity Effects on Desire: Perceived Availability and Romantic Attraction
  
• Displays of dominance increase women’s ratings of men’s sexual attractiveness:
  Do Women Prefer “Nice Guys”? The Effect of Male Dominance Behavior on Women's Ratings of Sexual Attractiveness
  

Now let's look into how this advice applies to those with a BPD partner.

The concept matches with my own perception that partners with BPD only display their worst behaviors after they start to feel accommodated. I think that also applies to male partners with BPD and some other disorders, but it seems especially true for females with BPD. The difference is that male partners never get fully accommodated with their aggression because they are subjected to domestic violence laws.

So I'm thinking that all of those who live with a BPD partner are, one way or another, accommodating them. And it gets worse after you get kids, because then the stakes are higher and your responsibility increases, so you accommodate even more, even if you're the type that has no problem saying "No" and even if you don't love her anymore. The alternative of going through a series of disputes in court seems so expensive and destructive that we may just freeze to avoid lawyers, financial support, asset disputes, child custody disputes, etc.

For instance, when you leave the room, allowing them to shout, break stuff, and offend you, you are still on the receiving end, so you are accommodating the behavior. It's even arguable that you are being an enabler. Because you haven't left the relationship yet, and you are still being a financial provider for your partner (usually).

Does that make sense? Now let's look into BPD-specific scientific evidence:

• Daily-life evidence that interpersonal conflict and reduced perceived warmth precipitate affective dysregulation and suicidal ideation in BPD:
  Interpersonal Stressors and Suicidal Ideation in Borderline Personality Disorder: An Experience Sampling Study (Whalen et al., Psychological Medicine)
  
• The biosocial and behavioral model underlying DBT, including the role of environmental reinforcement of emotional escalation:
  Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder (Linehan, 1993)
  
• Ambulatory evidence that interpersonal stress predicts non-suicidal self-injury in BPD, without clear interpersonal “reward” afterward:
  Interpersonal Consequences of Non-Suicidal Self-Injury: An Experience Sampling Study (Armey et al., Behaviour Research and Therapy)
  
• A longitudinal expressed-emotion study showed emotional overinvolvement predicted better clinical outcomes in BPD, while criticism did not:
  Expressed Emotion and Clinical Outcome in Borderline Personality Disorder (Hooley & Hoffman, American Journal of Psychiatry)
  
• Evidence that emotional overinvolvement is associated with higher caregiver burden and poorer carer mental health in BPD:
  Burden and Support Needs of Carers of People with Borderline Personality Disorder (Bailey & Grenyer, British Journal of Psychiatry)
  The relationship between expressed emotion and wellbeing for families and carers of a relative with Borderline Personality Disorder
  
• Interpersonal conflict and lower perceived warmth were linked to suicidal ideation:
  Momentary interpersonal processes of suicidal surges in borderline personality disorder
  
• Extreme emotional displays can be intermittently reinforced by the environment:
  A Biosocial Developmental Model of Borderline Personality: Elaborating and Extending Linehan’s Theory
  

On one side, when the partner becomes warmer, more reassuring, more responsive, and less rejecting, this usually correlates with better outcomes for the BPD partner. The same happens when there is a more “involved” family stance. It's also arguable that “being a question mark” can be more of a trigger than a stabilizer, because it could heighten the negative perceptions and interpretations from the partner with BPD, which are likely to increase conflict.

On the other hand, however, emotional overinvolvement is also associated with higher caregiver burden and poorer caregiver mental health.  Perhaps being completely adapted (to them) may also be a problem. For “accommodated,” as in “the partner gives in to demands during episodes, removes limits, or changes behavior to avoid explosions,” we know it is counterproductive to the relationship dynamic. Like in their upbringing, this setting could be intermittently reinforcing the extreme emotional displays.

So, my take on this is that the only way to make the relationship work is to put yourself in a position where you'll be conditionally present in the relationship. This means you will provide them with a fair amount of attention, love, and emotional support that they need, but only under the condition that they are respecting you; otherwise, you'll leave them by themselves.

For that to happen, you need to be emotionally self-sufficient and not codependent. With "self-sufficient," I don't mean a loner that doesn't get attached. I mean someone who does not have abandonment fears and is highly confident that if their current relationship fails, they will recover and find a better one at some point in time.

Additionally, you must be a free person, not a slave of your partner's mood. For that to happen, the simplest solution is to have a living apart together (LAT) relationship. That's until they recover from BPD symptoms affecting you.

In some cases, you'll be able to "get them in check" while still living together. That can be accomplished by setting them upon an imminent risk that is very scary for them. It could be, for instance, that you have the papers ready for a divorce and evidence that gives you the certainty of taking custody of the kids. Or it could just be that they are on probation for domestic violence, and if you call the police on your partner again, they get immediately arrested. In my view, those are precursors for you to be "a free person". But you'll still have to do hard work to reach this position and then still earn their respect nevertheless.

Many people will worry that their partners could leave them if cornered like that, but in reality, people with BPD need to be guided and led, and this will just make them happier, even if they get angry in the beginning.

That's what I have seen in all success stories. And this is also what is happening in my own relationship. I'm living apart, and recently my wife hasn't been attacking me anymore.

And once you are a free person and you are leading the relationship, you can request them to do the BPD treatments that are available so that they improve. You'll only be able to drop your guard when they are in remission from the BPD symptoms, but this is feasible.

Please share your thoughts on this! 

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[Pook075]

You're probably not going to like my answer, but what you describe is not love...it's manipulation.

Dating coaches teach people to date using manipulative tactics.  Neil Strauss wrote an excellent book on it called "The Game".  In a nutshell, it showed that anyone could hook up with specific behaviors and tactics, but the relationships never lasted and the guys were even more miserable than before.  The reason is because they were trying to "game love" instead of simply building a relationship off of love, trust, and mutual understanding.  In the end it left everyone broken, depressed, and alone.

The dating advice stuff from the "hook-up gurus" is absolute garbage because it misses on the one thing that actually matters in a relationship- reciprocal love.

So, my take on this is that the only way to make the relationship work is to put yourself in a position where you'll be conditionally present in the relationship. This means you will provide them with a fair amount of attention, love, and emotional support that they need, but only under the condition that they are respecting you; otherwise, you'll leave them by themselves.

In another post you mentioned that things were going good with your wife at home until she drank your juice.  When you questioned her, she exploded with anger.  And I remember thinking to myself, "Your wife is home and things are good for the first time in months.  Why question her over juice boundaries?  It's the simplest compromise- she's happy and you go buy more juice once you run out."

In other words, this shouldn't have been "a condition" of being present.  She was thirsty.

That's until they recover from BPD symptoms affecting you.

With BPD, there's almost never a full recovery.  There is no "remissive state."  BPDs can get a better handle on their emotions and learn to take a moment before losing it, but the mental illness is still there and a successful relationship is still going to come back to mutual love, understanding, etc.

Here's the thing- as long as you view this as "her affecting you", it's a lost battle.  She's sick, she's suffering, and her emotions are all over the place.  When you showed love and compassion, things were instantly better.  When you showed ironclad boundaries over something that doesn't matter at all (juice), things instantly fell apart.

Can you see what I'm saying here?  You can have ego or your wife.  But you probably can't have both.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Thanks for the book suggestion. I heard the Audible version sample just now. But I already have a position on this. I agree that those "pickup artists" do some form of manipulation, but that is just to "maximize" their results. The manipulation part is not intended to bring you a fulfilling relationship anyway.

The truth is that if one keeps picking up girls and never compromises into a relationship, this is a strong indication that they have their own psychological barrier that prevents them from having a deep connection. They can't allow themselves to be vulnerable.

The only situation in which perfecting the art of picking up girls would be healthy is if the pickup artist himself is in an open or polyamorous relationship, in which this is perfectly acceptable. Then, instead of manipulating the girls, he would invite them into his relationship.

Anyway, I think the concepts about how to attract girls and how to keep them attracted are still valid, even for the married guys. It's true that very often women leave guys that are excellent providers or cheat on them for no reason. And it makes sense that this happens because their husbands dropped the polarity and allowed themselves to be seen as low-value men. Similarly, a woman will be considered a high-value wife if, instead of accepting whatever she gets, she challenges her husband's perception of success, thus encouraging him to keep putting in effort in his desired accomplishments.

And I think the downsides of being passive in the relationship are intimately related to the downsides of being an enabler in a BPD relationship.

In another post you mentioned that things were going good with your wife at home until she drank your juice.  When you questioned her, she exploded with anger.  And I remember thinking to myself, "Your wife is home and things are good for the first time in months.  Why question her over juice boundaries?  It's the simplest compromise- she's happy and you go buy more juice once you run out."

In other words, this shouldn't have been "a condition" of being present.  She was thirsty.

I'm sorry, but you got this wrong. Here in this board, we tend to post the bad stuff, not the good stuff, but I have many good times with my wife. It would be sick to be in a relationship if it were all bad. When we lived together, we would kiss and hug deeply almost every day. She would be very easily vulnerable with me, and I would always share my ideas with her as my best friend. Apart from her anger and the conflict-seeking part of her disorder, we do get along very well with each other.

The issue we had has nothing to do with the juice bottle itself, much less about her being thirsty. She just took that opportunity to paint herself as a victim and create conflict. For instance, her mother is very short on resources and super controlling of them, always using the terms "my house," "my kitchen," etc., and my wife does not like that wording at all but does not lash out at her either.

I think the entire concept of avoiding triggering your partner is naive and doesn't work. They will always figure out ways of getting triggered (unconsciously purposeful).

With BPD, there's almost never a full recovery.  There is no "remissive state." 

Remission of symptoms means that the number of BPD symptoms their therapist finds on them, based on DSM criteria, is less than 5. You know it happens a lot. It means the mental illness is technically not there anymore.

BPDs can get a better handle on their emotions and learn to take a moment before losing it, but the mental illness is still there ...

I think you are assuming that they have a thin skin, poor resilience, and can't adapt to the world. Like a kid in the body of an adult. I disagree with this model. I think they force themselves into a childish mentality, while in reality they are not so immature.

... and a successful relationship is still going to come back to mutual love, understanding, etc.

Well, that's the basics of all relationships, isn't it? Mutual love and understanding. Supposedly, they have always had it from their partner.

Here's the thing- as long as you view this as "her affecting you", it's a lost battle.  She's sick, she's suffering, and her emotions are all over the place.

I disagree. You must see yourself as a separate individual that has your own feelings, needs, and desires. If you don't see their actions as something that affects you, then you're enmeshed and will just go drowning deep with them. Your mental health will drop like theirs. Unless you make a clear notice of how her outbursts are affecting you.

When you showed love and compassion, things were instantly better.  When you showed ironclad boundaries over something that doesn't matter at all (juice), things instantly fell apart.

Can you see what I'm saying here?  You can have ego or your wife.  But you probably can't have both.

Hey, you are looking at it upside down. I was not angry when I brought up the subject, and I didn't show "ironclad boundaries" to her. Also, she was the one defending her ego, not me. Instead, I was just trying to talk it out and reach a consensus. I was completely open to hearing her motives and even to being convinced that I was wrong.

Actually, we had already talked about the juice bottles in the past, multiple times, until we got into an agreement. She was opening all the bottles she could see, so the agreement was that I would store them out of her sight. Indeed, they were in the back of a closet in the kitchen along with many other empty bottles, and it even had a lock on it. But she crouched and searched within this closet because she saw the lock open (after all, she was not living with me anymore, so I relaxed).

Since it was a resolved issue, I naively assumed she could have forgotten about our agreement. But now I think she did remember it, and this is exactly why she went in the opposite direction. Unconsciously, she wanted to provoke me a bit, just enough so that she could have an excuse to lash out at me again.

This is quite similar to what she did in the past with her father to make him angry. Such as when she would get home past the agreed time on purpose. Part of this is because this is when he paid more attention to her. This is a "schema" that can be unwound in therapy.

I don't care much about the bottle of juice. It is her screaming that is unbearable. I gave up on the argument and moved away from her, but she just kept getting louder and louder by herself.

Your suggestion in regard to the juice bottle was to give in to their demands, right? Is this what you usually did with your ex-BPD wife? I'm assuming you are a very receptive person and have always had the benevolent qualities that you show here on this board. Considering that your relationship is over, do you consider that your approach was successful or that it failed?

Now you don't seem to agree with the concept of "being conditionally present in the relationship", but I think this is exactly what you do with the BPDs in your life. Because you told me that if they spiral out of control, you end the visit and resume it the next day. Isn't that a conditional presence?

[Horselover]

I know this may be hard to hear, but based off my experience with my BPD husband, it is not a simple formula that people with BPD who attend therapy go "into remission." It can take years of intense work for the person with BPD to be able to function at a somewhat healthy level in a relationship, and they also have to be highly motivated in order to accomplish this. As well, I am not sure if every person with BPD can achieve this even with therapy and medication, as sometimes, a relationship is just too triggering for them. So while there is certainly hope, and some people with BPD can learn to mitigate their dysregulation to the point where they can be functional partners, it is not as simple as making ultimatums that scare them into attending therapy and then assuming that they will improve. As stated before, they need to take accountability and want to become healthy, and there is no amount of prodding (at least in my experience) that will make this happen unless it comes from within themselves. So while I think that ultimatums or living apart can be a catalyst for getting the BPD person to access therapy and/or medication, which is obviously a positive thing, if they are not very committed to working on themselves, which can be a painful and difficult process, they are not likely to heal at a level that you will be able to live with. 

[Mutt]

Reading through this thread, I keep coming back to what “conditionally present” actually means in practice. For me, it’s less about leverage and more about self-regulation. If things escalate, I step away. If respect dwindles, I disengage. Not to shape the other person’s behavior, but to protect my own stability.

I do think there’s a risk that newer members might interpret “conditional” as needing to create fear or corner someone. That hasn’t been my experience. The shift for me was internal ~ not trying to win, not trying to manage, just not participating in chaos.

Boundaries without power plays. That’s the balance I’m aiming for.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Horselover,

Can you share how many years of DBT therapy your husband has done? And why is he doing it? Has he "hit a wall"?

It's true that getting them to seek treatment (such as DBT + medication) may take many years to yield results and yet is no 100% guarantee of recovery. And almost all of those recovered will still have a few of the symptoms (since recovery means less than 5). Yet, the statistics for BPD treatment indicate a very good prognosis. The image below speaks for itself.


Source: Ten-Year Course of Borderline Personality Disorder (Figure 2)

You can see that almost 100% of them had affective instability, but 10 years later just 40% of them did. And after 2 years, most of the patients have already been "undiagnosed" (don't meet the BPD criteria anymore). And approximately 85–93% achieved diagnostic remission over a 10-year span.

Ok, I know many don't even get diagnosed or get diagnosed but never actually start treatment. But there are many studies pointing out that BPD is the most treatable personality disorder.


Mutt,

Yes, I have not explained well what "conditional presence" means. It must be predictable, in the sense that the BPD loved one doesn't get insecure about our affection. They should not view it as "intermittent withdrawal," as that could undermine their sense of self-worth.

I agree that the intention of boundaries should not be to "shape their behavior," but that is what it will effectively do. Using the skills and tools will have a big effect on their behavior with you if you compare it to how it would be if you didn't use the skills and tools.

So you don't target their change, but you put matters in their hands, and you fully accept whatever course they choose to take and results they get. You accept their failure and the end of the relationship, as well as their recovery and the maintenance of the relationship.

Makes sense?

[Horselover]

My husband has attended 2.5 years of individual therapy with a DBT-informed therapist and has completed 3 rounds of DBT. And this was after doing individual therapy with 2 other therapists (who were not that great), and couples counselling, and trying several different kinds of medication. His behaviours are not even nearly as severe as many other partners have described - mainly when triggered, he dissociates and yells to himself in a loud voice as if no one else is there. He also hates that he yells and says he does not want to do this anymore when calm (but still does).

Here's the thing - if the person experienced trauma, and I don't know if your wife did, but many people with BPD have very early attachment trauma, then in my experience, it is not enough to do DBT. That is a good start, but the person needs to work on processing the intense shame that is the hallmark of BPD and which is generally associated with the trauma they experienced. And that can be a very, very difficult, intense and painful process, which requires a high level of personal motivation to achieve. It cannot be "pushed upon" someone, they have to want very badly to work through their issues. I would not say my husband has "hit a wall", but I would say that it is just a long and challenging process - for some, it may require a lifetime of work to truly become healthy.

You can quote me all the studies in the world, but they are just academic words. I'm not trying to make you lose hope, and there is hope; however, BPD is not that easy to treat, contrary to what you may read. In the past, mental health professional thought it was untreatable, so I think it is great that there are actually therapies now that can work for motivated individuals. However, the authors of the study don't live with the person, and it is difficult to quantify things like what "no longer meeting criteria" actually looks like in real life. So I am not suggesting you give up, but just trying to keep it real - it's not like you do DBT, take medication and you're good to go.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Horselover ,

It seems like your husband could be one of those who are treatment resistant. However, 2.5 years is still not much compared to the 10-year scale. One of the things that makes them treatment resistant is the brain damage that can come from severe psychological stress or physical trauma (traumatic brain injury). But there are options for this, such as EMDR for PTSD and ketamine for resistant depression coming from hard-wired negative thoughts.

In the case of my wife, I'm now looking into medication for ADHD, because that could be one root of her problems. I'm ok with the possibility that she will never recover from BPD. Actually, I'm fine with how things are now, living apart without conflict. Yet, I need to make sure I have tried everything to help her out. I'm on a mission that will only be complete when I have exhausted all possibilities of treatments. If the next medication just makes her sleep better, that will already be a great success for me.

[Horselover]

No, I do not think my husband is one of those who are resistant to treatment. My guess is that he is pretty typical in terms of his response to treatment; in fact, he is probably more motivated than some others who never get diagnosed or pursue therapy at all.

I just don't take the words of the study so literally, as I know that what research captures artificially is often very different than how it manifests real life (and I have a background in conducting scientific research, so I am saying this from personal experience).

Have you noticed that the main one who is pursuing all these treatments is you? That's one of the issues - the "mission" really needs to be hers, not yours. If she does not "own it" and take accountability for her BPD symptoms, the treatment won't go anywhere. No one can rescue her except herself. It is very hard to accept this as the partner, but I have found this to be the truth. However, you can work on improving yourself, and how you respond to her, and what your boundaries are, and this may ultimately change the dynamic.

[SuperDaddy]

Horselover,

My observations:

1) The study could have biases, but almost all studies point towards a high incidence of remission. It takes long, but it is steady since the rate of relapse is very low (around 10% in this study).

2) Yes, I think that what you say about their actual functioning in the real world is also depicted in that study. It recognizes that their level of functioning remains poor and remains worse than other personality disorders (OPD):


Scores on the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF) (A) and the Global Social Adjustment (GSA) scale (B)

3) The interpersonal conflict with an intimate partner is a different category not depicted in that study, but I believe it greatly improves with the remission of specific symptoms such as affective instability, intense anger, and efforts to avoid abandonment. Well, that's if their partner has the necessary skills to deal with their disorder and is emotionally healthy.

4) Yes, when they are seeking treatment by themselves, this is better. In my case, I'm the one pursuing the treatments for her, but for some people this is how it needs to happen, at first. That's because many people with BPD have such low self-worth that they don't seek anything for themselves. They might feel defective and incurable. They may also not have money and not want to ask for money for their treatment. They might also have trouble pursuing their goals (including seeking treatment) because of other comorbid disorders, such as ADHD, which affects executive functions.

But once they begin and feel the improvement and feel more self-confident, their self-motivation should gradually arise. That's what I expect for my wife, and I think her ADHD is a good part of what makes her feel incompetent. I disagree that "the treatment won't go anywhere" just because I'm the one pursuing it for her now, because she has been very receptive. I'm not forcing her in any way, just trying to guide her.

5) I also disagree, at this point, that working more on myself "may ultimately change the dynamic" of the relationship. Because after 4 long-term relationships with disordered women, lots of self-help books, dozens of books on BPD, hundreds of conversations with others with BPD loved ones, and some therapy for myself, I feel like I have perfected myself quite a bit. The point is that, essentially, I'm not triggering her, and she does not have fears of abandonment anymore. Yet the real issue is that she unconsciously pursues a conflict-seeking behavior. Proof of that is that today we had many minor points of conflict, and in most cases I was bringing them up, but on no occasion did things escalate. This is because she is not seeking conflict now, so we had a civilized conversation, and I made sure it ended up with hugs and kisses. The conflict-seeking behavior may not be seen in some people with BPD, but it happens with most of them, perhaps more than 80%, and usually turns out to be the drive behind interpersonal conflict.

Please let me know if you still disagree with any of those views. I'm interested in opposing views.

[CC43]

The concept matches with my own perception that partners with BPD only display their worst behaviors after they start to feel accommodated.

Hi there,

While I tend to dislike the concept of playing dating "games"--there's a popular dating guide book for women titled "The Rules" which echos what you wrote above, I do think there is some truth to the notion that pwBPD display their worst behaviors when they feel "accommodated."  I think that this happens partly because BPD seems to affect close relationships most.  But there's another part of the equation, which I think of as indulgence.  I think there are two aspects to the indulgence, too.  I think the pwBPD feels "secure" enough to "indulge" in her negative thinking and behavioral parterns.  And I think the partner or parent also "indulges" her, by letting her "get away with" such behaviors with little or no adverse consequences.  In essence the partner or parent shields the pwBPD from the natural consequences of her behaviors, and so her "feedback loop" isn't functioning normally, her "incentives" aren't aligned.  For example, if I flew off the handle, shouted (or texted) obscenities to a friend and accused them of being narcissistic, lying abusers, I'm pretty sure that's the last I'd ever hear from that friend for the rest of my life.  But in the case of a pwBPD, the romantic partner or parent "indulges" this behavior, takes the heat and probably turns around and tries to comfort her and win her back!

I'm saying this because I've noticed that the pwBPD in my life seems to be able to turn on and off her behaviors like a switch.  Sure, she is chronically beset by a negative attitude, a victim mindset and pent-up anger.  But it seems to me that she intentionally DECIDES to let it loose sometimes, almost as if she wants to manufacture an "incident."  She is able to show restraint sometimes, such as when she wants something.  But her outbursts seem overly calculated in my opinion, like an act of manipulation.  Just the timing of them is suspect, such as when people close to her are celebrating, or headed out the door for a vacation.  Cue the meltdown.  The only reason she gets attention when she manufactures a meltdown is because other people "accommodate" her, as you call it.  If I had a meltdown right now, I'm certain that nobody would accommodate me. . . if anybody heard me, they'd probably call the police because I'd be making a disturbance and acting totally out of character.

I guess for me it comes down to effort.  I want the pwBPD in my life to go into remission and adopt healthy habits.  I want her to take her therapy seriously, and learn more positive thinking patterns to cope with life's daily stressors.  I want her to not to take every little setback and every little discomfort personally.  I want to help her repair the relationships with other members of her family.  I want her to be able to celebrate with the family at holidays and special events, to feel included and cherished.  I want her to see herself in a more positive light, to appreciate her natural gifts, and I point them out repeatedly whenever she deigns to listen.  But here's the thing:  I can try my hardest, help alleviate stresses for her, tolerate her bad moods, not take her insults personally, to praise all that is good in her.  But what I do won't change anything if she has given up.  She has to want to make positive changes.  I can't change her outlook, she has to do that.  But for as long as she "indulges" in her BPD behaviors and negative thinking, nothing I do can make her feel better.  Maybe all I can do is not "indulge" alongside her, so that she starts to feel the natural consequences of her behavior.  When I indulge her, I get in the way of her learning how the real world works.  And let's face it, to achieve "remission," she needs to be able to operate in the real world at an adult's level, and the real world doesn't indulge in childish behaviors, at least not for very long.

I'll wrap up with another anecdotal observation.  It seems to me that BPD behaviors tend to come to the fore in early adulthood.  My guess is that happens because the pwBPD's dysfunctional behaviors were "accommodated" in the childhood home, maybe even modeled after the behavior of a dysfunctional parent, especially the same-sex parent.  As the pwBPD bumps up against the "real world"--namely in the workplace or at college--she finds out she can't function very well.  She expects the world to be accommodating, and she basically falls apart when she learns it's not.  She feels a deep sense of shame of failure, while at the same time she rages at the world, blaming others for not accommodating her!  Everywhere she looks, her childish expectations aren't being met, and she's overwhelmed and distressed by that.  Typically she retreats to her childhood home or to that of a romantic partner, where she can act like a kid and be taken care of like one, all the while hating her caretakers for making her feel the way she does.  Sound familiar?

If she doesn't completely fall apart, and she's a "high functioning" BPD, she's learned to mask her behavioral tendencies in school/workplace environments and saves her wrath only for "accommodating" parents/romantic partners.

[Horselover]

Thank you CC43 for articulating very well much of what I was trying to convey!

[Pook075]

But her outbursts seem overly calculated in my opinion, like an act of manipulation.  Just the timing of them is suspect, such as when people close to her are celebrating, or headed out the door for a vacation.  Cue the meltdown. 

I do agree that it appears this way on the outside, but I believe that often the exact opposite is happening.  The BPD goes to a celebration and sees everyone so happy when they're filled with chaos inside, and that leads to awkwardness as they try to "fake it".  But often it leads to a meltdown because so much stress is built up beforehand or afterwards.

Heading out the door for vacation- OMG.  There were so many trips where I asked my BPD ex and my daughters to go without me.  There'd be so much chaos and dysfunction getting packed, getting in the car, arguing over every little thing...it was like the trip was ruined for me before we even left the driveway.  But once we got there, everyone was happy while I wanted a vacation from the vacation.

[CC43]

I do agree that it appears this way on the outside, but I believe that often the exact opposite is happening.  The BPD goes to a celebration and sees everyone so happy when they're filled with chaos inside, and that leads to awkwardness as they try to "fake it".  But often it leads to a meltdown because so much stress is built up beforehand or afterwards.

Hi Pook,

I agree with you, up to a limit.  I know that pwBPD try to "fake" happiness, and they often struggle with it.  I know in the case of the pwBPD in my life, she feels both "exhausted" and "fake" trying to be cheerful.  She's had customer-service-oriented jobs and just can't seem to muster the desired cheerfulness the jobs require.  Her disposition is too tentative, negative--not the happy-go-lucky, nice and helpful type customers prefer.  Thus when she makes on-the-job mistakes, she can't muster the right mix of apologeticness and can-do helpfulness, and she tends to get let go (if she doesn't quit first).

But I think pwBDP are prone to "fail" at being agreeable because their real-world incentives are all mixed up.  What if, in the real world when they lose a job, they are forced to get another one and try again, because they have to make rent?  Practice makes perfect, right?  What if, when they have a meltdown, everyone else goes on with the celebration or vacation without them?  What if the pwBPD was given a "time out" to get herself together, and allowed to rejoin the festivities when she's back to baseline, if she decided to do so?  I just think it's not fair or correct to stop the festivities or bend over backwards to "beg" her to rejoin, just to let her ruin it for everyone else.  If she ruins a vacation once, shame on her.  If I let her ruin vacations again and again, shame on me.  I feel like I've let her ruin things for me too much, and I'm angry at myself for it.  Yeah I was trying to be the "martyr," taking the hit to "save" her.  In hindsight, I was not only misguided, I was an enabler!

Honestly I've come to the point where I've vowed to myself not to cancel any more vacations because of the pwBPD.  As I write this I'm bracing myself for a potential meltdown scenario, given an upcoming family wedding. 

I read once that a good way to break a bad habit--say, smoking--is not to rely solely on willpower, because willpower only lasts so long.  Besides, mental fortitude is not something that pwBPD have in excess.  One recommendation to is to try to replace a bad habit with a healthier one.  The example with smoking is to chew a stick of gum instead.  An example with excess snacking is to drink a cup of water first, or enjoy a fruit or vegetable first.  My sense is the DBT training focuses on this sort of habit substitution, disguised as coping skills.  For example, when a pwBPD feels the urge to shoot off a rage-text, a healthier habit could be to write down thoughts in a journal, or to cuddle with a pet.  I think most adults have their go-to strategies for dealing with stress and conflicts, based on a lifetime of experience.  It's just that I think that pwBPD have a lifetime of distorted "feedback" and have learned, given perverse incentives, maladaptive coping techniques.  I guess that's why I'm a big believer in therapy, which can help identify bad habits, re-train automatic responses and ultimately replace them with better coping skills.