It may be over (cont)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think on your part, the only thing you can do is to see how far she takes this. Unless you are watching her 24/7- she still can choose to engage online, meet someone when kids are in school and you are at work. There's not a way to completely control this. It would be up to you to decide your response to what she does.

[Notwendy]

I think on your part, the only thing you can do is to see how far she takes this. Unless you are watching her 24/7- she still can choose to engage online, meet someone when kids are in school and you are at work. There's not a way to completely control this. It would be up to you to decide your response to what she does.

[maxsterling]

Wendy - in a sense I am - intentionally.  Me saying “I don’t agree with this” with no further discussion always means that the same thing will be brought up over and over.  Reinforcing that boundary over and over hasn’t met with success.  My hope here is for W to think about reasons to choose monogamy for herself so that maybe future conversation will be different and more productive - less “black and white”.  I doubt the conversation will change from “you are controlling me because of an antiquated sexist belief”, but at this point it is worth a shot.  My hope is that she discusses what I said with her T this week.

Maybe she can think  - “Gee, he does do all the work already - and if I find other partners he has no reason to stay married.”

Or maybe she has some insight that that her issues have gotten in the way of having a healthy relationship in the past and will similarly impact future relationships.  She is capable of that insight, but I don’t expect behavior to change.  She did decide to do laundry and dishes last night.  She’s likely to see this as transactional, though - she will do housework for a week and then expect me to be okay with extramarital relationships, but if it all gets her to consider other viewpoints than her urges, I call that positive.

[maxsterling]

I think on your part, the only thing you can do is to see how far she takes this. Unless you are watching her 24/7- she still can choose to engage online, meet someone when kids are in school and you are at work. There's not a way to completely control this. It would be up to you to decide your response to what she does.

That’s the way I see it right now.  She is going to do what she wants - my boundary won’t stop her.  I just hope she can see that I have valid reasons for my boundary and that I am not just being a jerk.

[maxsterling]

Clarification:  if she can see that past relationships failed because she could not be monogamous, she might begin seeing her role in this.   

[Notwendy]

Hopefully she will.
I think it's difficult to be seen as the "bad guy" but if someone is in victim perspective- that's how they feel. Hopefully you can hold on to knowing it's not true. You are not being a jerk in this situation.

[SuperDaddy]

maxsterling,

You said you have reinforced your boundary. But do you mean to just state it? That's only reinforcing the statement, not the boundary itself. Here is a description of what it is to actually reinforce boundaries:

"Reinforcing boundaries requires consistently following through with stated consequences when limits are ignored, moving from passive discomfort to active self-protection. It involves clearly communicating needs, staying firm without needing to justify them, and, if necessary, removing yourself from situations that violate your well-being."

Note that if the boundary is being crossed, you have to remove yourself from the situation, and that's the part you don't seem to be carrying on, since you are still on the receiving end of it.

When you don't go through with the consequences, your word loses its value. The result is that you just get walked over more and more. But I'm unsure what you allow or disallow. It seems like your boundary is about her not having sex, since you said it was ok for her to meet the first W. If she didn't have sex, doesn't that mean that she hasn't crossed your boundary?

Anyway, the fact that you have shelters in your country is a great advantage, and it takes from you a lot of the responsibility. She will survive. If you wish and she accepts, you can give her emotional support throughout this process by visiting her in the shelter, and that could have a positive impact on her outcome. I hope that makes you feel less guilty.

[Notwendy]

Note that if the boundary is being crossed, you have to remove yourself from the situation, and that's the part you don't seem to be carrying on, since you are still on the receiving end of it.

But I'm unsure what you allow or disallow. It seems like your boundary is about her not having sex, since you said it was ok for her to meet the first W. If she didn't have sex, doesn't that mean that she hasn't crossed your boundary?

Anyway, the fact that you have shelters in your country is a great advantage, and it takes from you a lot of the responsibility. She will survive. If you wish and she accepts, you can give her emotional support throughout this process by visiting her in the shelter, and that could have a positive impact on her outcome. I hope that makes you feel less guilty.

Some clarification- there really aren't shelters in the US for domestic disagreements and there are no public ones. There are some limited ones for women in domestic violence situations. These are privately run, spaces and availability are limited. Legally, in the US, Max does not have the option of putting his wife out of the house. Neither can he just up and leave as this would be considered legal abandonment. The only real option is legal separation.

IMHO, for Max- you are more in a reactive position. You have a boundary according to what you want, but when it's crossed, then what to do about it isn't so clear, because I really think you don't want to leave. 

This isn't criticism- I observed this with my parents. My BPD mother would do something that to me, was unacceptable. Dad, not wanting to leave, would somehow rationalize it.

It's a challenge to act on a boundary when you don't want to, and are married to a spouse who stretches the limits of them. However I think even pwBPD have a sense of what is too far. This is why, I have a hunch that Max's wife may have started something with another woman but may not have "gone too far" with the relationship. It's possible she may have self sabotaged it.

[Mutt]

I agree that boundaries have to be actions, not just repeating the same position.

As others have mentioned, the logistics and kids make this more complicated than simply “remove yourself.” For me, setting limits would look more like this:

~ I’m not going to keep debating open marriage. My position is clear.

~ If she chooses to pursue other relationships anyway, I’ll make decisions based on that rather than argue about it.

~ If self-harm or suicide language shows up, I involve professionals. I’m not trying to judge intent.

~ And I’m stepping back from absorbing or managing the emotional fallout.

That’s what reinforcing a boundary means in this situation.

[maxsterling]

Wendy - I am very much an optimist by nature, not just in this situation, but in my life in general.  I try to understand others wherever I can.  I don’t like a black/white view of the world.  So when a boundary is crossed, i want to understand why it was crossed.  

So for my W, I am trying to understand what goes thru her mind - because it is so different for me.  She describes having platonic friendships as impossible for her.  For me, it’s not a problem having friendships, even with women I am attracted to, and having no desire to act because of circumstances.

Really it is not the idea of W having a female lover that is the big problem for me, but rather the other stuff that comes with it.  Those things include being triangulated against, dealing with W’s dating ups and downs - basically the inevitable drama and stress.

If W had a stable long term r/s with another woman and could still maintain a loving r/s with me and the kids, i could probably accept that.  Considering that would be impossible for W, really the only boundary is no outside r/s.  
 

[SuperDaddy]

Hi maxsterling ,

Your boundary may not be very clear for her. Because sometimes you say it is ok for her to go, and other times you say it's breaking your marriage.

But if you are only worried about triangulation and drama, my guess is that over time this will tend to decrease. And this reminds me of a book named:

The Buddha and the Borderline: My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder through Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Buddhism, and Online Dating

In the book, the author is a straight woman who uses online dating as a training ground to practice relationships and DBT skills, directly targeting core BPD issues like unstable attachments, fear of abandonment, and emotional dysregulation in intimacy.

In my understanding, online dating could be a better training field because it is much easier to practice those skills with someone with whom you have "no strings attached."

The book has a 10-hour audible version, if you wish.

In your case, I'd probably make deals with her in which she would be required to attend DBT sessions so that she improves instead of just crashing. You may also want to have some say on what she does. I would request her to install a GPS tracking app that would track her displacement.

By the way, in the past I have tracked my wife without her knowledge, and it turns out she was having secret encounters with Mr. MacDonald.  She kept it as a secret because she is gluten sensitive.

[Notwendy]

Wendy - I am very much an optimist by nature, not just in this situation, but in my life in general.  I try to understand others wherever I can.  I don’t like a black/white view of the world.  So when a boundary is crossed, i want to understand why it was crossed.  

So for my W, I am trying to understand what goes thru her mind - because it is so different for me.  She describes having platonic friendships as impossible for her.  For me, it’s not a problem having friendships, even with women I am attracted to, and having no desire to act because of circumstances.

Really it is not the idea of W having a female lover that is the big problem for me, but rather the other stuff that comes with it.  Those things include being triangulated against, dealing with W’s dating ups and downs - basically the inevitable drama and stress.

If W had a stable long term r/s with another woman and could still maintain a loving r/s with me and the kids, i could probably accept that.  Considering that would be impossible for W, really the only boundary is no outside r/s.  
 

Boundaries are about ourselves. They are our non negotiables. They reflect who we are, not anyone else.  It's not about being judgmental of someone else or not understanding them. It's not about being controlling. It's about what is us, what isn't us- and knowing that line.

Without boundaries, there's chaos. Imagine if there were no traffic boundaries and everyone was driving all over the road, no red lights, no stop signs. Traffic lights aren't good or bad, or indicative of being judgmental. It's how we can drive safely and get to where we need to go.

Imagine a classroom with no boundaries. The kids would be running amok, no classwork would get done.

This "boundary" with your wife on monogamy isn't a boundary, because it's based on her behavior. Saying you would tolerate her having a romantic GF if she could have a stable relationship is putting the boundary contingent on her. That is making a judgement about her- and it's saying "if she was different, she could have a girlfriend".

A marriage/intimate partnership is unique and can have specific boundaries. An example of monogamy being a boundary would be that it is an important aspect of this relationship to you. It's based on you, not anyone else. When you make it about your wife's behavior, and give contingencies based on her behavior- it's no longer a boundary. If there are no non negotiables, there's no boundaries and when matched with someone with BPD who doesn't have her own internal boundaries- there's the chaos.

Boundaries also determine our responses. We have to be willing to act in response to someone violating our boundary. If not, then it isn't a boundary. If your response to someone crossing your boundary is to seek to understand them, and not act on it, then it's not a boundary. What action to take is also a choice, and understanding can help determine that but the boundary has to be clear.

This concept was addressed in a Dr. Phil show (I know it's a show but he made a good point). A family was focused on their one troubled family member and he said "you are all lost in the woods and looking to a disordered person to lead you out".

Your wife's lack of boundaries is because of her disorder. Her behavior is a result of her thoughts and feelings. Changing the course would depend on you. It doesn't mean you need to be a brute. Too strong boundaries aren't good either but yours need to be based on you.