Going NC - Questions

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello. I have posted here about my sister, who had been basically normal (or at least not clinical, and able to maintain relationships without aggression) but began aggressively exhibiting BPD symptoms in her late 30s following a family tragedy.

My question is about going NC. I notice that this seems less common on this site than I would expect and would be interested in thoughts from this group.

In our situation, the whole immediate family has gone NC over the past 8 months or so.  After about 10 months of trying, with no success, to find resolution or convince her to get help or to just stop, everyone got exhausted by the abuse and also observed that it seemed like any type of feedback just added fuel to the fire.  So collectively, the immediate family stopped responding or contacting her, except on a few occasions when she expressed suicidal ideation and managed to get a reaction from her terrified family.  (Her spouse is the only one still standing - depending on the day, he totally denies anything is wrong or blames the family for destroying her.)

This was so painful, but in some ways, the break may have been cleaner than most. She has no kids and lives a few hours away from the family. She is healthy and generally high functioning.  In more recent weeks, she lashed out at people outside the immediate family or made good on repeated threats to smear immediate family members to extended family and friends, so immediate family have reached out to tell others what is going on with her. (Of course she views herself as the victim of that and believes the family is intentionally turning everyone against her.) So everyone is basically on one side - angry, sad, wishing she were better, but not interested in interacting with her until/unless she is. 

This might have been less complicated because her behavior was a new development, so there was no ingrained dynamic that involved people managing her. Also, because of how this was tied to a tragedy, it was very clear what the priorities were, and that she was undermining efforts to stabilize the affected children and hurting innocent people who were already dealing with a crisis. She doesn't look good to anyone, going after widows, older people, and children.

The most affected family member also got a protective order against her due to fear of continuing escalation, and after she made good on threats to smear that person to family and colleagues, and tried to contact the children against the parent's wishes.

While there is real concern for her physical safety, I think part of the thinking here was that funneling all this blame and aggression towards others was allowing her to avoid a breakdown, resulting from trauma and guilt from the tragedy, which needed to happen in order to get her treatment and so she could rebuild. Without anywhere for the abuse to "land," the hope (sadly) was that she would turn it inward or on her spouse, resulting in things falling apart so that there was nothing to do except get help.  And while the protective order was very much needed for protection, it also seemed like she needed a reason to stop escalating and taking destructive action. It has only been a few weeks, but so far, the legal and career repercussions of the order seem to have made an impact, and she has generally complied.

My questions for others are, what do you think about the assumptions in the prior paragraph? Have you seen going NC lead to any change in the BPD person or is it simply a way to shield and cushion others? 

If you did not go NC or were less able to "cleanly" go NC and take advantage of legal protections because doing so would jeopardize other family relationships or alienate children or an old or ill person, despite their BPD - if you could have go NC without these concerns, would you have? Or do you see a benefit in continuing to try even if it exposes you and others to abuse, fear, stress, etc.?

This group is a comfort. I have found the responses and the posts to be so thoughtful and information. Thank you.

[Year of the Goat]

Hello. I have posted here about my sister, who had been basically normal (or at least not clinical, and able to maintain relationships without aggression) but began aggressively exhibiting BPD symptoms in her late 30s following a family tragedy.

My question is about going NC. I notice that this seems less common on this site than I would expect and would be interested in thoughts from this group.

In our situation, the whole immediate family has gone NC over the past 8 months or so.  After about 10 months of trying, with no success, to find resolution or convince her to get help or to just stop, everyone got exhausted by the abuse and also observed that it seemed like any type of feedback just added fuel to the fire.  So collectively, the immediate family stopped responding or contacting her, except on a few occasions when she expressed suicidal ideation and managed to get a reaction from her terrified family.  (Her spouse is the only one still standing - depending on the day, he totally denies anything is wrong or blames the family for destroying her.)

This was so painful, but in some ways, the break may have been cleaner than most. She has no kids and lives a few hours away from the family. She is healthy and generally high functioning.  In more recent weeks, she lashed out at people outside the immediate family or made good on repeated threats to smear immediate family members to extended family and friends, so immediate family have reached out to tell others what is going on with her. (Of course she views herself as the victim of that and believes the family is intentionally turning everyone against her.) So everyone is basically on one side - angry, sad, wishing she were better, but not interested in interacting with her until/unless she is. 

This might have been less complicated because her behavior was a new development, so there was no ingrained dynamic that involved people managing her. Also, because of how this was tied to a tragedy, it was very clear what the priorities were, and that she was undermining efforts to stabilize the affected children and hurting innocent people who were already dealing with a crisis. She doesn't look good to anyone, going after widows, older people, and children.

The most affected family member also got a protective order against her due to fear of continuing escalation, and after she made good on threats to smear that person to family and colleagues, and tried to contact the children against the parent's wishes.

While there is real concern for her physical safety, I think part of the thinking here was that funneling all this blame and aggression towards others was allowing her to avoid a breakdown, resulting from trauma and guilt from the tragedy, which needed to happen in order to get her treatment and so she could rebuild. Without anywhere for the abuse to "land," the hope (sadly) was that she would turn it inward or on her spouse, resulting in things falling apart so that there was nothing to do except get help.  And while the protective order was very much needed for protection, it also seemed like she needed a reason to stop escalating and taking destructive action. It has only been a few weeks, but so far, the legal and career repercussions of the order seem to have made an impact, and she has generally complied.

My questions for others are, what do you think about the assumptions in the prior paragraph? Have you seen going NC lead to any change in the BPD person or is it simply a way to shield and cushion others? 

If you did not go NC or were less able to "cleanly" go NC and take advantage of legal protections because doing so would jeopardize other family relationships or alienate children or an old or ill person, despite their BPD - if you could have go NC without these concerns, would you have? Or do you see a benefit in continuing to try even if it exposes you and others to abuse, fear, stress, etc.?

This group is a comfort. I have found the responses and the posts to be so thoughtful and information. Thank you.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Wow, I get the sense that when most family members come here wondering about going No Contact, they aren't usually thinking about a protective order.  That a protective order already exists for your pwBPD indicates that her behavior has become extreme and harmful.

In my opinion, getting a protective order is typically a last resort, when other modes of going NC or LC haven't worked.  Getting a protective order implies that a third party needs to be involved to enforce boundaries, i.e. the legal system and/or police.  I guess that's not uncommon, because pwBPD do not like boundaries . . . when they're not getting therapy, they have trouble getting past the past.

In my own experience, it's the pwBPD who typically initiates NC.  That's because she feels she has reached an emotional limit; my guess is that she deems her entire family to be "toxic."  In addition, her personality is avoidant in nature--think of it as a trauma-based flight response.  To avoid feelings of anxiety, she'll generally avoid other people.  She'd avoid work and school if she could, as well as life's ordinary stressors--paying bills, maintaining her car, buying insurance, whatever.  Her typical response is to avoid things until she has no other choice.  And so she'll also avoid people, by going NC, probably to avoid negative feelings associated with them.  Right now the pwBPD in my life has no contact with any members of her immediate family, of varying duration (a few years for siblings, a couple of years for her mom, a few months for her dad and me).  That means not responding to any texts or calls, let alone making a visit or sharing a meal.  Nevertheless, we keep tabs on her through her therapist.  Also, she still gets some mail at my home, which her dad will forward onto her.  We know where she lives and works, too.  That's something.  Her dad will send an occasional short message from time to time, along the lines of, "Thinking of you, hope you are well, I just mailed you some things."  I'm pretty sure he regularly gives her money via a joint account, too.  While I don't love that, because it feels like "rewarding" her for ingnoring her dad, I'm sure he does it out of genuine concern.

Yet in your case, it sounds like you are considering initiating the NC.  Typically you'd do that to protect yourself, and to reduce the drama in your life.  You should absolutely do that if you feel you need a break and time to take care of yourself.  It wouldn't have to be forever, not necessarily.  My advice?  Don't announce what you're doing if you don't have to, and certainly don't blame it on her ("I'm blocking you because of what you did").  She would take that as a hostile form of abandonment, which is a top trigger for pwBPD.  She'd think you were blaming HER, when she's convinced that YOU are to blame.  So I think it's better not to say anything at all.  That way, you don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain).  You don't use logic when your sibling is dealing with overwhelming emotions . . . she can't process logic when she's upset.  Instead, you just stop calling.  You stop texting and emailing.  You stop visiting, and you stop inviting her over.  You make different plans.  Rather than aggressively avoid her, I think you get BUSY with your life.  You're so busy and happy that the time flies, you practically forgot about your sibling's dramas.  One author here recommended something like a "slow fade."  Get busy, reduce the frequency of texts/emails, and hope your sibling starts to direct her anger elsewhere, because she's not getting the attention she craves from you.

Now, there are repercussions, especially with the extended family.  If there's a large family gathering, you might not be able to control whether you see her.  If you are committed to NC, then you might have to miss a family gathering where your sibling would be present.  That could hurt the feelings of innocent family members.  Not everyone would understand why siblings aren't talking to each other, and it might make you look bad, if they didn't know the whole story.  As for your sibling, surely she'll blame you for treating her badly, ignoring her, casting her out, alienating her or treating her like garbage.  But my guess is she already thinks you're awful; otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to get some distance from her, to protect your own well-being.

Nevertheless, I think many people here try "hybrid" approaches.  Maybe they go Low Contact, for example only engaging when the sibling is acting civilly.  The moment she acts out or broaches a negative topic, you make your exit (or disengage from any text or email chain).  Maybe you attend the major family events (weddings, Christmas), provided that there's a "buffer" of other people.  You are civil, but you don't share any personal or emotionally charged information which could be triggering.  You keep visits very brief, so your sibling isn't overwhelmed.  You never stay at her place or vice versa--you don't want to impose--you stay at a hotel, to give her space to wind down.  Your written correspondence is what you'd send to a distant cousin--Happy holidays!--nothing too personal, emotionally charged or revealing, and certainly no advice, either.  It's almost like a business relationship:  friendly but superficial, often transactional, so you can stay out of the drama.  Maybe you mourn the loss of a "normal" relationship with your sibling, as seems typical here.  But if your sibling is abusive to you and compromising your well-being, then the relationship won't be "normal" until she gets some help.  You can't change her; only she can do that.

All of the modes are contact are designed around YOU.  You can't control how your sister will act, but you can control how you relate to her.  Hope that perspective helps a little, in a very difficult situation.

[Year of the Goat]

That a protective order already exists for your pwBPD indicates that her behavior has become extreme and harmful.

Yes. It is harassment, in the form of text messages, and, in the past, emails and calls, to siblings and parents.  Cruel and hateful accusations, suicidal ideation clearly meant to cause panic. Threats to destroy reputations and relationships by telling them employers, family, and children the "truth" (almost entirely lies, but tied to a true event, the sudden death of a family member, which is the traumatic event I have mentioned).  Using threats as blackmail to try and get access to the deceased's children. Just generally demanding constant attention and causing constant pain, panic and fear to people who were already dealing with a tragic loss. All because her "boundaries were violated" by some minor decisions and actions in the wake of the death, decisions which had nothing whatsoever to do with her.

There were 8 months of trying to resolve things without going NC, which failed, followed by another 8 months of NC from any immediate family.  Messages are less constant but flare up around key dates like birthdays and anniversaries.  The content has worsened and recently, she started reaching out, unsolicited, to the deceased's family and people who are strangers to her and only indirectly connected to the widow.  Sending these people (who included college aged kids, other people's children) private and personal information and hateful lies about the widow and the deceased, while threatening to do the same with the widow's employer, children, and extended family. 

It was the escalation, with no obvious impetus for it, that led to the protective order.  Acting on threats she has been making for a year, involving third parties after previously "keeping it in the [immediate] family." Where does the escalation end, if she is this enraged and feels this entitled to try to destroy other people's lives, livelihoods, relationships? No one involved has ever experienced anything like this from her or anyone else, so there is no playbook or predictable pattern, other than escalation.

Does that seem like an overreaction?

[Notwendy]

My questions for others are, what do you think about the assumptions in the prior paragraph? Have you seen going NC lead to any change in the BPD person or is it simply a way to shield and cushion others? 

If you did not go NC or were less able to "cleanly" go NC and take advantage of legal protections because doing so would jeopardize other family relationships or alienate children or an old or ill person, despite their BPD - if you could have go NC without these concerns, would you have? Or do you see a benefit in continuing to try even if it exposes you and others to abuse, fear, stress, etc.?

Personally, I don't think going NC will change the pwBPD and it should not be the reason for going NC. We can not change another person. For someone with BPD to change, they themselves need to be willing to do the work in therapy and it's their decision to do this or not.

I think the main reason for going NC is to maintain one's own emotional well being and not be subjected to abusive behavior. I think it's important to do this from our own decision, our own choice and not because we blame the other person.

I think each person has their own circumstances and so makes these decisions considering all of them. One reason you may not see a lot of NC here is possibly because of the other circumstances posters have.

In my own situation, I didn't go NC with my BPD mother because of her being connected to other people I wanted contact with. To go NC would exile me from the rest of the family connected to her, and a main one was my father, who I wanted to have contact with. I would also have to avoid all family celebrations, and other get togethers. I didn't want to do that. So my choice was to try to get along.

This in a way happened anyway. With my father's passing, her family rallied "to her side" and all of them didn't seem to care about contact with me. I could have gone NC and at the time. Prior to this, I didn't think I really had the choice, because I cared about these people connected to her.

However, by this time, BPD mother was an elderly widow, and I didn't feel this was the right thing for me to do. I didn't base the decision on whether or not she would change or her feelings at the time. It was mine.

Your situation is different. You won't be disconnected from your family- it seems they are aligned with this. As to your sister's husband- that's his choice too but it's also a good thing for your sister with the family being NC. She won't be alone. She's young, she's in good health. She can take care of herself.

For you, NC is a different choice, based on your own situation, and IMHO best made when it's your choice, not with an expectation of affect on the pwBPD.

[Notwendy]

Another aspect of this decision is how you are feeling about the relationship. There's going to be grief, even without NC. The relationship you thought you had with your sister looks different now. There's grief over what you thought you had and what you wish you had. Now, there's the relationship as you see it.

Going NC also involves this grief, along with the grief for a sister. NC doesn't have to be for the long run. It can be temporary if you need it for your own emotional well being. However, NC can have an affect on the relationship.

In my situation, the idea of NC was considered . A counselor had brought up the idea to me. I just didn't want to do it-one reason as stated- my father and other family, the other, is that the relationship did matter to me. I didn't want to do this with a parent (except in extreme situations and where personal safety and emotional well being is threatened) and assumed the same for them with me.

I have no idea on what level it mattered to BPD mother.  For most of the posters here who choose NC, it's after significant consideration. For BPD mother, if she was angry, if someone didn't meet her needs, they were discarded. But also it didn't seem to be permanent for her either- due to the push-pull dynamics. But this dynamic still affects the people involved. It's hurtful.

People don't choose NC if there's a chance the relationship is workable. I would have to admit there was still some hope on my part that there could be a better relationship although I was realistic about how possible.  I also needed boundaries with BPD mother's behavior and tried to balance both.

If you are uncertain what to do, then LC, is a good middle ground. However, if you do this, I suggest you don't put yourself in the position of "go between" both sides in your family. When BPD mother's family reached out to me, one of the first things I said to them was that I didn't want to discuss my mother. This way neither of us would be put in the middle. (It was later when she was in assisted living that we did discuss her health and behavior issues- because they wanted to know how she was doing and also had contact with her. But I didn't get into drama discussions about her).

Stay aware of the Karpman triangle so you aren't getting into "us vs her" discussions. If you feel pressured to go NC by other members, remember this is your decision to make based on you and how you will manage it.

[Year of the Goat]

People don't choose NC if there's a chance the relationship is workable. I would have to admit there was still some hope on my part that there could be a better relationship although I was realistic about how possible.  I also needed boundaries with BPD mother's behavior and tried to balance both.

I will always be hopeful. Right now, it's a matter of damage control and defense. Unfortunately. Everyone hopes this changes, but feels like she is the one in control of that.

[Notwendy]

From my own experience, there's no real damage control. I think it's a choice between consequences.

Going NC or not will not control what the pwBPD says or does. They can still go around badmouthing people, and continuing their behavior.

Although NC seems to be a more common phenomenon- there are consequences to that as well. It doesn't control the pwBPD's behavior. If the damage control is about ones own mental, emotional, physical well being- where contact is detrimental- then NC can provide damage control.

Some people feel more at peace after NC and some people do not. They may still feel some grief. NC doesn't need to be long term but reconnecting may feel more strained or awkward.

At this time, the decision is about your own mental and emotional well being. If you don't want contact from your sister, my best advice is to not anounce it to her, or anyone. Just do it. Don't initiate contact with her. If she calls, texts, emails, you don't have to answer. Another way to do this is what I call a slow silent "fade". Don't answer beligerant or insulting messages, or emails. Don't answer all of them. Maybe choose to answer on occasion.

Boundaries are about you. You decide on the contact you choose.

Don't do this to "teach her a lesson" - she's so dysregulated at the moment, this will only escalate the situation. Just silently decrease contact.

I'm not an advocate for blocking, unfriending, on social media unless someone is being verbally abusive and sending threats. If she is, then it's appropriate to do this. If not, better to just ignore (IMHO). For phone blocking- mine will just go to voice mail but the person can still call. If yours does that, this is an option to give yourself some peace and you can still see messages but the call won't disturb you. Otherwise, let her calls go to voice mail and choose to respond or not.

I have a (former I guess now) friend who got angry at me by association- not for something I did directly. She was already angry at someone else I am connected to, and so she unfriended, unblocked the entire group of us. I attempted to reach out to her but now I can't. I hoped she'd reconsider but now so much time has passed, without any chance to clear the air, it would be a huge mountain for her to climb to repair these relationships even if she wanted to. I don't know if she has BPD but it's all the more difficult if she does.

If you think you may want to reconcile in the future, LC- on your terms- how much you choose, without announcing it- leaves the door slightly ajar for that possibility.

[Notwendy]

Another piece of advice is that you are hurting a lot, and so are other members of your family. This is completely valid. My BPD mother went all out in terms of hurtful and damaging behavior- at a time when I was grieving my father.

I didn't go NC but I decreased contact- for my own emotional recovery. Neither you or the other family are in an emotional space to deal with your sister. That is OK.

I went to therapy. I recommend this for anyone dealing with a pwBPD. The counselor urged self care- turning the focus on me. It's also good advice to not make big relationship decisions when someone is in a state of feeling hurt and grieving. You may need the distance for your own well being, that is OK to do, but reacting, anouncing to your sister, - she's in a dysregulated state.

This is not about placating your sister, enabling her or giving her a pass on her behavior. This is about taking care of yourself however, you feel you need to. You don't announce to your sister that you are brushing your teeth, or going to the gym. These are self care things you do for you. Taking some time to yourself can be in this category: personal and private.

It may be that there can't be a relationship but by keeping your focus on you, taking the time you need to do self care- you will be in a better position to handle the situation however it goes.