I Still Have Work To Do On Setting Healthy Boundaries

[zachira]

I was out of town for several weeks. A woman who walks in the same park as I do on a regular basis had been talking to me about her problems. I listened and tried to be nice. When I returned from vacation, I saw her two times and was unavailable to talk with her as I was busy catching up with someone else, so I just said hello. The third time I ran into her, I was walking with another person, introduced her to this person. She got mad, said "I thought I was number one with you." then proceeded to start to tell me some gossip. She never acknowledged the person I introduced her to. I walked away with the other person.

I now know I am in for it. She had previously shared with me for several months how angry she was with this married man who tried to go out with her. I now feel she is likely borderline, and mistakes relationships for being much closer than they actually are. I am sure to be targeted for a smear campaign.

I take responsibility for having extremely poor boundaries with her. I listened to her telling me things like she had been sexually molested as a child. I listened to her gossip about this married man who is extremely angry with her, who no longer speaks to me.

All of this is a reenactment of my listening to my mother with BPD for hours on end, telling me all kinds of inappropriate things in which the conversation was one long one sided rant. Time to get back to working on my boundaries while weathering the discomfort of regularly running into her on my daily walk in the park.

[Notwendy]

She got mad, said "I thought I was number one with you." then proceeded to start to tell me some gossip. She never acknowledged the person I introduced her to. I walked away with the other person.

This being angry at you for walking with someone else is a  . The two of you weren't best friends for years, you were aquaintances in the park, and she says this.

Give yourself some credit- sometimes we don't know until we know. There is nothing wrong with meeting someone and being empathetic to their story. I think another    here is when she started speaking of very personal information if the two of you didn't know each other well, indicating poor boundaries. But all you did was listen to her.

I had something similar happen to me a while back. Someone I know not extremely well began sharing shocking information. I learned from others she would say the same thing to them, in situations where it wasn't really appropriate. Someone else who knew her better said they thought she had BPD.

Sometimes it's not possible to know at first that someone is disordered. People with PD's can hold it together at first, and it may be that later we get the sense that something is off about them. If you were to not speak to anyone- or ever meet someone- that would be a boundary that closed you off. A boundary can be semi-open- meet people, but take your time with them. I think where we wavered was listening a bit longer- due to our own family patterns and being empathetic. I thought this person who was saying TMI was odd- but odd is different from toxic. The TMI is the poor boundaries in sharing information. That may not be an issue if it were only with someone we see once in a while, in a public setting- we'd shrug it off as "well she's a bit odd" and keep a relationship distance from that person- cordial but not more.

Where this stepped into disorder is when she said that remark about being number one. That you recognized this is a boundary. We are going to run into people who are disordered at times, and a clue for ourselves is our own discomfort. We may take a longer time recognizing this due to our own family dynamics but - you did and now you know- this person - there is something "off" about her.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Welcome back from your trip.  Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but what I see here is that people like to be with you and open up to you.  That's a real asset in my opinion.

However, I agree that revealing intimate information, oversharing and/or emotionally dumping on you in the context of a casual relationship can be a red flag.  I'll give you an example.  My sibling was recently excited about a first date with someone who, on paper at least, seemed ideal.  They had met at a club, and they had some friends and interests in common.  But during the first date, she brought up the topic of prior abuse by an ex, volunteering the information, out of nowhere, using it to explain her reluctance to do certain normal activities.

When my sibling discussed the first date with me, we agreed that this was a giant red flag--oversharing, victim mindset, sympathy seeking--alongside a yellow flag (multiple food restrictions that she volunteered and discussed in detail).  Though at first he was disappointed, he felt fortunate to avoid a minefield.  Here's the kicker:  he was expecting that the date would reach out to thank him, because he had arranged a lovely evening, and he had spent most of it listening attentively, with understanding and patience, to her various "issues."  Well, she never even texted to say thanks.  That absolutely put the nail in the coffin.

I guess what I'm saying is, in a way, you might have the advantage of recognizing toxic behaviors, because you've navigated them for so long.  I think I've learned that, too, to some extent.  I don't think you should beat yourself up for encountering these types of behaviors from time to time.  Actually, I think these behaviors are almost ubiquitous.  In a group, there always seems to be that "difficult" person, who is entitled, demanding, self-centered, a drama queen, finding offense everywhere, manipulative, etc.  I think you're lucky to know it when you see it.  One place I've seen it frequently is in job interviews.  For example, the candidates who are highly critical of their prior workplaces, colleagues and former bosses.  The ones who never seem to stay anywhere for long, and can hardly come up with anything positive to say about their prior experiences.  These are also the candidates who don't extend the courtesy of sending a thank-you.  I guess I'm saying, I think it's important to be able to read the radar screen when it comes to general attitude.

All the best to you.

[Notwendy]

Be kind to yourself Zachira - sometimes we don't see it. My BPD mother could have long term friendships with people who had no idea, but then at some point, she'd turn on them, paint them black, they'd either disappear or she'd be done with them, and when she is done, she's done.

She had a neighbor who she was long term friends with. We were very grateful for that neighbor as the neighbor was closer to her than we are and could check on her if we had a concern. Then one day, something happened, I don't know what, and they were no longer friends.

It happened to me too. We had a long friendship with a couple. Then, the wife had a conflict with someone I know casually, and then cut off everyone connected to that person. We were all blocked, unfriended, and she has refused any social events involving everyone-even if that person isn't attending. I have seen the husband a few times on his own and someone asks about his wife, he offers an excuse for her. I know to not bring it up.

This affected me a lot, more than it affected the other people she discarded. To them, they've rationalized that this isn't something they want to deal with. For me, I grieved it. It was difficult. Then it dawned on me- this is the same dynamic I saw in my parents, where my father covered for my mother. I wasn't only reacting to beind discarded by this woman, it was similar to the dynamics with my parents.

I also reacted to the horror of the level of destruction. I didn't even do anything to this woman. My presumed "guilt" was associating with someone she had issues with- real or not. The selfishness of her decision- changing entire family friendships over this.

I didn't see this about her, not for years. I assumed all was "normal". So we may not see it at all, unless something happens and we do. Maybe others see it before we do but we do eventually. Once we see it, we see it. When you know, you know.

[zachira]

Notwendy and CC43,
Your feedback is very helpful and heartwarming. Thank you. We have had similar experiences in recognizing we are dealing with a disordered person and distanced ourselves if necessary and/or accepted that we have been cut off. What bothers me the most is we are more likely to be targeted by disordered people because of other previous disordered close relationships. With time, we have gotten better at seeing the red flags sooner.

I know that I listen to a person's problems way past what is healthy for either me or that person. Very few people except for her personal therapist if she had one would have listened to this woman for such a long time. There are several people I no longer interact with because of the one sided nature of our relationships: I listened to their monologues while there was little or no reciprocity, which is what I used to do with my mother with BPD. Perhaps you can give me some advice on how to end the one sided relationships sooner.

On my recent birthday, I got a text wishing me Happy Birthday from my disordered neighbor, the one I no longer speak to whom I described in a previous thread. The other neighbors cut her off a long time ago. I think this neighbor is trying to reconnect because I gave her the undivided attention that she craves. It really turned my stomach when I received her birthday card. She will never accept that I am a separate person from her, worthy of the kind of respect and kindness I showed her.

For years, I was uncomfortable making friends with people who did not share their problems with me. That has changed. I now have a few close good friends. I am now comfortable with safe people with healthy boundaries. For several years, I have been ending more quickly relationships that are one sided conversations in which I give my undivided attention to a disordered person. Still a work in progress.

I recently bought a book on how to make friends. I am lonely and need to learn more about how to make and keep friends.I do believe that it is the loneliness that makes me more likely to spend my time listening to the monologues of disordered people.  Most of my friends have their own families, and their priorities are to spend more time with their children and grandchildren. I do not have children.

[CC43]

Hi again,

One of my strategies is to say, "This topic is stressing me out; let's talk about something else, OK?"  That's pretty easy to say, because it's true!  If she says, "Yes, but . . . " and ignores my request, I'll say something stronger, like, "I'm not comfortable discussing this anymore; if we continue, I'll have to call it a day."  And if she continues, I extricate myself as politely as possible:  "See you later, bye," which is easiest on a phone call.  I call this the "three strikes rule," whereby she CHOOSES whether or not she strikes out.  If she wants to keep the conversation going, eventually she learns to change tack after the first or second warning.  I just try to make the warning about my own discomfort, rather than blaming her.

As for making friends, I think the key is to do stuff you like, and often.  I mean, if you say to yourself, "I want to go on a hike," but you wait to try to find a friend to go with you, chances are you won't go on a hike for a long time.  But if you go on a hike, chances are that like-minded people will find you and join you eventually, especially if you hike locally and often.  Do you remember how it was relatively easy to make friends in grade school?  I think that's because you were in an environment with a peer group on a regular basis.  In adulthood, it's harder to replicate that environment exactly, but it can be found:  at a church, club, gym, park, coffeehouse, supermarket, neighborhood area, volunteer organization, etc.

By the way, the sibling I mentioned previously is going through a divorce and suddenly found himself without a friend group, because the overwhelming majority of his former friends had ties to his ex.  At first, he was depressed and lonely, which was to be expected.  But with the divorce came a new freedom to do all sorts of things that he had long neglected, basically because his ex didn't like anything he liked.  One time, when he was feeling especially down, I said, "Brother, just humor me for a minute.  Don't think too hard, but tell me one of your favorite memories, whatever pops into your head."  He named something, and I said, "Great, how about another one?"  He complied, and I repeated, "Great, how about another one?"  And so on, for around a dozen happy memories.  Then I reflected and said to him, "Well, it seems to me that most of your happy memories involve something sporty or adventurous, typically outdoors, and something intimate, with just one or two close friends.  (I didn't say it at the time, but none of the happy memories involved his wife, sadly.)  It seems to me that to feel happy again, you should focus on those sorts of activities.  Why don't you schedule something soon?  The good news is he did just that.  He reached out to a couple of old buddies.  And the more he started with the activities, the more he met like-minded people.  He doesn't need a ton of friends, just a handful of good ones.  Soon enough, he made new friends and got himself invited to all sorts of cool activities.

[zachira]

CC43,
I like both: your suggestions about what to say to end an uncomfortable conversation and how to make friends. I will use those. I am comfortable saying that I am not comfortable discussing something. I like the idea of doing activities I enjoy. Right now, I am far too isolated and spend too much time alone, which makes me a more likely target for disordered people.

[CC43]

Right now, I am far too isolated and spend too much time alone, which makes me a more likely target for disordered people.

Well, I suspect you need to be a little less hard on yourself.  I love to spend time alone!  I enjoy reading, sewing, doing puzzles, studying languages . . . and I think that's completely OK.  But I also enjoy the outdoors, so in summer I go to the beach and car shows, in the fall I go hiking, and in winter I go skiing, even if it's just cross-country skiing in my yard and neighborhood.  If the weather isn't great, I go to the gym instead, where there are tons of other people just like me, trying to get some exercise.

Look, my mom is a widow, and while she spends a lot of time with grandchildren, she also needs a break from them.  Who are her friends?  Well, some are from church, some are from a volunteer organization, and some are from a quilting club.  The quilters make blocks together, and they also go to quilt shows, some which are weekend-long trips.  In addition, she is a regular patron of the local arts, and she goes to several shows and/or concerts every year; I'm pretty sure she gets season tickets.  Sometimes she'll have an extra ticket, which gives her the opportunity to bring along a friend.  She also belongs to a book club, but frankly she says it's too much for her right now, as she doesn't like the pressure of having to read some books she doesn't like.  I told her, that's OK, maybe take a break from the book club this year, because your schedule feels overwhelming right now.

I guess my point is, once you start doing something you enjoy (say, seeing live theater or jazz), when someone asks, How was your week? (or, Do you have any fun plans coming up?), well you go ahead and mention the theater or jazz experience.  Your enthusiasm will shine through, and maybe your acquaintance will say, Hey, I love jazz too, have you ever been to the club in town?  Would you like to check it out sometime?  And there you probably have a new friend, whose focus isn't endless trauma.

[Notwendy]

Zachira- I understand and I also feel similarly- like not having many friends. I think it is connected to our upbringing. In ACA groups (which include dysfunction not only alcohol in the family) one of the issues we have as adult children is to isolate ourselves.

I think because we tend to be aware of the emotions of others, being around a lot of people a lot can be tiring. Being alone is a way to feel the most emotionally safe. Too much of it is lonely.

I know I need to work at making more friends but rather than force it- I do things that may lead to that. I joined a work out class for women and have met people there. Any activity that brings people together is a chance to meet people. It's hard to put yourself out there and work at making a friend but if you join a group where there's common interest with yours, it will put you in a place with other people. Accept yourself about what works for you. I have a friend who has a wide circle of friends and likes to socialize. I like to do some of that. I'm fine with a smaller circle. We don't have to match everything to be friends. The connection is that we have boundaries, common interests. Be yourself Zachira- you are a kind compassionate person and there are people who would be glad to know you.