Lengthy update.

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

[maxsterling]

I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

[zachira]

How old are your children?

[maxsterling]

The children are 9. 

[Notwendy]

Glad you posted an update. It seems it is working better with the two of you as room mates basically. Is this the plan, at least for now. You stated that if she moves out again, you would consider legal action but that leaves that decision up to her. You saw how that worked out and she isn't able to maintain herself on her own. Should she move out, it would likely be a similar situation as this is her capacity.

She also isn't able to hold a job, however, being on SSI disability, if the two of you weren't married, she would be eligible for Medicaid health insurance or disability Medicare so that concern may have a solution.

However, the idea of your wife- or if it were your ex wife, and the mother of your children being unable to manage on her own is understandbly a concern. I think in the case of divorce, there would be alimony and whether or not that impacts Medicaid/Medicare eligibity, I don't know, but getting SSI would be in that favor.

I think this was also something my father was concerned about, although I was not aware of the extent of my mother's difficulty with functioning until later. The kids are 9, they aren't able to fully comprehend it either. However, you are right that taking on the parenting is in their best interest. Your wife isn't capable of that. My father took that on too, and I can see why he did it. The silver lining to this is that we kids have good memories of outings with Dad- to the park, the Zoo, the movies. It doesn't have to be elaborate or costly. It's the time with you that counts.

Nothing has to be decided at the moment and so being where you are at is the situation now. If this is working well enough that you can manage then no need to change. It seems like this is the situation with the least of chaos and expenses for now.

[maxsterling]

Wendy - I often think about what you have said about your dad.  I'm wondering if he felt trapped in a way.  Had he filed for divorce, what would have happened?  Do you think your mom would have been capable of at least some level of self-reliance?  From what you have said, it sounds like maybe not.  Do you think your dad considered that route, but didn't go that direction because of that fear?

[Notwendy]

I know my father considered it although it was BPD mother who made the most threats- empty ones. While I think my father had the sense to not discuss this with kids, because of the conflicts- at home where we saw them, and BPD mother's threats, I eventually asked him. As kids, at about 9-10 like yours, we really didn't know enough to ask.

From a parents' perspective, it must have felt shocking to have a teen daughter ask pointed questions, but BPD mother was bringing up their relationship issues. That was not appropriate but we heard it.

I know there was more to it but being confronted, he did say some. I had no idea at the time how unable to manage on her own she was. It was well hidden and Dad's support covered a lot of it up. He didn't reveal it either, he must have known.

Some of his responses were probably covers for the situation. He sometimes said it was too expensive but so was BPD mother and her uncontrolled spending. At one point he mentioned doing this and letting her find someone else. She was very attractive and now I see that would have been the only way she could have managed.

But he also did love her in a way- and when she could pull herself together, she was very charming. Sometimes he appeared smitten with her. The push pull I think also gave him some hope. It's also possible that there was less stress once we kids were grown and out of the house, and he didn't have the parenting duties in addition to her. By our teens, we were very self sufficient. However she remained a challenge.

I think he did feel trapped but I think a part of that was feeling responsible for her. The stress on him was apparent, even if he didn't talk about it. He was irritable at times and snapped at us. It was different when he was alone with us, he was more relaxed and engaged.

He did feel responsible for us kids and in her era, custody went to the mother. She would have pulled it together in court. Also in their era, many women didn't work outside the home. She had no work experience, and was unable to function in a job even if she did. I think he felt responsible for her.

Where things unravelled was when he got sick in his elder years and she didn't have as much of his supervision and emotional support. That is when I saw the full extent of it. Knowing he was very ill, I did bring up concerns about how she could manage on her own. I offered to help manage their finances as I knew she'd mismanage them. She refused. Eventually she did mismanage them. I had to have boundaries with her but stay in contact with her and was the next of kin contact in her elder years.  Fortunately there was enough funds left to cover her care facility.

My own take on this is that what is best for your own mental health is the best for the kids. If staying together leaves you stressed and drained, then that affects the kids too. They are going to see their mother's behavior whether you stay or not. If you do stay for the long run, be prepared for all the stages of this. As difficult as divorce is, if it did come to that, there might be resources in place for your wife that she is on SSI which could make her eligible for Medicaid in her elder years if needed.

One thought is to seek out this kind of information- what is she eligible now and later, even if it doesn't come to that. I did seek this out for my BPD mother- what are the options for her care if there are any. While the elder years are a ways off for you two, having the information itself may help you with plans whatever direction you choose.

[CC43]

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

Hi there,

I think I remember the gist of your story, given the unusual nature of it:  you being OK with your wife moving out to have a same-sex affair, because it meant that you got some peace in your own home.  I think I also remember that your wife couldn't manage to feed herself(!).  The irony is not lost upon me, that you're dealing with a woman who attempted to work as a teacher of children, when she can't even figure out how to feed herself independently.  If she was working in an elementary school situation, it's no wonder that she didn't last very long, because job satisfaction is lower than ever in elementary schools these days.  The kids are too needy, the teaching requirements are too strenuous, and there's not enough support to teachers in a world where discipline measures have been watered down to nothing.  I guess my reflection is that this wouldn't be an ideal job set-up for her.

Anyway, I'm replying because my extended family went through a similar situation.  My uNPD brother-in-law separated from his wife and wanted to co-parent three young children.  However, he wasn't capable of caring for himself, not by a long shot.  He had all sorts of self-created and untreated health issues--alcoholism, obesity, high blood pressure, gout, failing kidneys, and the associated issues of nausea, vomiting, joint pain, impaired vision and extreme fatigue.  He was long-term unemployed (and unemployable).  His mobility was limited.  He neglected his home environment and hygiene, and he spent most of his days napping.  He couldn't feed himself reliably, unless you count ordering DoorDash every night as reliable.  And those were just some of his physical issues.  On top of that were mental issues including bouts of confusion, meanness and extreme self-centeredness characteristic of NPD.  In short, he is incapable of putting his children's interests first, let alone caring for them in an appropriate way.  Anyway, I imagine you can figure out that the kids weren't safe living with their dad.  He couldn't reliably feed them the simplest meals, like cereal for breakfast, PB&J sandwiches for lunch and spaghetti for dinner.  He wasn't even AWAKE at breakfast and lunchtime during his parenting days.  Basically he reversed roles, expecting the kids to be parentified and cater to him and his needs, while he was functioning like a child with a credit card.  As an example, the kids spent a lot of their time waiting for dad in urgent care clinics, in lieu of attending their usual after-school activities.  Not only that, but he was emotionally abusive to the children, calling them horrible names, exposing them to age-inappropriate subjects (e.g. nude photos, R-rated movies), and subjecting them to emotional manipulation, not unlike the quote I highlighted above about threatening suicide.  It's not fair to subject kids to that in my opinion.  For example, one time he drove into his driveway but refused to get out of the car and go in the house together with his three young kids.  The kids went inside by themselves (hungry of course), but after a while, they grew more and more worried.  His precocious daughter thought her dad was having some sort of health incident in the car, but he just yelled at her and told her to go back inside, while he refused to budge.  She ended up crying and asking her dad if she should call 911 for him.  Eventually she convinced him to give her his cellphone so that she could call her mom and ask her what to do.

And so I'd say, it sounds to me like your wife is functionally like a child, as she needs someone else to feed her, provide for her and cater to her emotional needs.  She can't handle employment or key adult responsibilities, right?  And you're not comfortable leaving the kids with her because of this?  I'd say, you need to document all this as best as you can.  Why?  Because right now you have a temporary situation that is working, in the "least bad" sense.  But my suspicion is that the situation is highly unstable, and your wife could go off the rails and make your homelife miserable again.  I'd say, you need to build a case for sole physical custody of your kids, until their mom demonstrates she can actually take care of herself, before she can even consider taking care of kids on her own.  I think it's not fair to expect kids to act like adults while their own parent is acting like a kid, and I think you need to protect them from that sort of situation as much as possible.  Maybe the solution for your wife would be some sort of supervised, short-duration visitation, which wouldn't include overnights for the kids until she got her act together.  Does that make sense?  I can't help but wonder, does your wife even want the responsibility of taking care of the kids on her own?  Or does she only want them to get back at you?

Just some food for thought.  All the best to you.