Are BPD parents aware that they are abusive

[caughtnreleased]

My mother did a great deal of gas-lighting when I was growing up. She would rage, and then after her rages when I would mention them she would completely deny her behaviour and tell me I was the one who was raging at her. I almost wanted to record her rages - but I never did - perhaps because it would have been too painful to listen back to the tapes - and because I was afraid of the consequences that recording her would have (ie: her anger).

One time was quite young, under ten years old and she had another rage episode against me. One of my grandparents was around and took me on their lap, and we watched TV together. I remember being emotionally completely destroyed, and crying - and surprised at the comfort that this grandparent was giving me. The next day my mother came to me with accusation and she told me that I had been trembling sitting on my grandparents lap. She asked me why I had been trembling. I wasn't even aware that I had been shaking... .I didn't know what to answer her. To me this was a kind of "don't you even dare manifest anything that could indicate to anyone that I am abusive with you." - but that would mean that she was aware of how abusive she was. When they gaslight - is it because they are conscious that their behaviour is bad? I now see her behaving with her grandchildren in ways that are equally reprehensible... .She tells them they're stupid - she triangulates. Goodness - I so badly want to see something nice about her - I want to believe she doesn'T know any better but I'm starting to think that might be wishful thinking - because of soo much gaslighting. If they thought their behaviour was ok - they wouldn't need to gaslight like this.

[Charlie3236]

Hi caughtnreleased! 

I believe on some level they know that something's SERIOUSLY wrong with themselves. In my experience with a BPD mother and now BPD little sister, when they actually see the fallout from their destruction, it sends them into an even greater emotional spiral, and they actually up the gaslighting in an effort to regain some sense of control in an emotional world that is very violent and chaotic in their own heads.

I believe that what they do to themselves emotionally is even worse than what they do to us (if you can put a grade on emotional abuse). So I guess my answer is yes and no... .No I have never seen a BPD realize what they've done and apologize or try to makes things right, but yes I do think they know how deeply ill they are, which only serves to make the situation worse.

I've heard people use the analogy of walking around without skin, imagine how any little bump would feel. It's how BPD people experience emotions. And unfortunately it doesn't usually get any better.

[Basenji]

I want to believe she doesn'T know any better but I'm starting to think that might be wishful thinking - because of soo much gaslighting. If they thought their behaviour was ok - they wouldn't need to gaslight like this.

Please may I share that I think that is an excellent question. For me it is a question that needs to be asked to construct how I view my own uBPD mother - is she basically OK, just ill, or is she aware and therefore needs to be held responsible.


A Legal Perspective

To get a perspective, I looked at the legislation regarding child abuse - in the UK this was set down in the 1930s. My own mother's behaviours were technically illegal.

So did she have the excuse of illness to exonerate her illegal behaviours? Two measures might be used legally to decide:

1. Volition - she had the power over her own actions (this is easily proven since borderlines can turn it on and off according to time and person: my mother would never rant and rave at certain people!)

2. Ability to discriminate right and wrong - yes, of course she could, in fact, ironically, the borderline has an intensified black and white view of world.

So, legally she might have difficulty defending herself on the bases of mental illness! (Assuming she even knew she was borderline, which I presume she doesn't). In law she might be expected to be sufficiently self aware to regulate her own behaviours through a combination of volition and a sense of right from wrong.

Admission of Bad Behaviour

My mother has only once ever conceded to bad behaviour. Her first trip to visit me in Australia (I migrated from the Uk as a young adult) - on the first day I took her out to a seaside suburb (Manly-Sydney) and ranted and raved at the thought that she might not get an omelette for lunch when I said I wan't sure were the best cafes were in Manly for omelettes: oh what a backward country, why had I dragged all that way from the UK, blah , blah , blah (of course she ended up having very expensive Thai king prawns). The next day she said something about vaguely remembering being silly about an omelette. Hmmmm!

On her last trip she behaved so badly I wrote and told her she wasn't welcome in my house anymore and cited a long list of unacceptable behaviours. Her response was to totally avoid the issues cited and start carrying on about if she'd left me out of pocket just tell her how much money to make it right.

One time I challenged her because she was persistently foul towards a girlfriend (as she has been with every girl I've ever dated that I was stupid enough to let into her presence) and she sat and cried and didn't' say anything ("transfer from being the abuser to the victim: "oh look you've hurt me so badly you made me cry".

Always Somebody Else's Fault

I just found out that my mother tells friends what an awful childhood she had. This just doesn't gel with the stories I heard from my Grandmother. In fact my mother was seemingly either born borderline or accrued such traits at an early age, being a a little madam of a child throughout: refusing to recognise her younger sister from birth, being at war with her father, and expressing some gender dysmorphia (insisting on a boy's name, getting Gran to make her trousers and hanging out with the local farmers).

So in her eye's she's not the problem, everyone else around her is: on the relationship casualty list of sister, father, husband, son and various bosses at work!

But she must realise she's not normal!

Recourse to Martyrdom

So the borderline lapses into martyrdom as a means to justify then impact of their bad behaviour. My mother still rants about the loss of father to divorce in 1968 as if the sense of martyrdom proves her depth of her (sick obsessional and dark) "love".

Gaslighting / Blame the Other Person

It is very easy for a borderline to "groom" a child. Not just the emotional / psychological manipulation, but the fact the child knows no other parental role model and always seeks to please a parent.

I suspect my mother kept me away from medical examination when she suspected I had stress related symptoms (my first migraine was traumatic and I had no idea what was happening to me and she never rang for a doctor!).

Somehow the borderline finds a justification - their sick view of love (remembering that violations are usually done in the name of loving and caring).

I just don't accept that she is unaware (she knows she has a problem), or stupid (she is very manipulative).

She has blamed me for her not finding another partner, for not knowing what love is in my life, goodness knows even the spots on my face as a self conscious teenager were somehow ballooned into a profound character flaw and mentioned every breakfast time ("my, your spots are bad today - why don't you do something about them".


Conclusion

It is my opinion that my uBPD mother is actually quite aware of the impact of her behaviours. It's just that she's highly unlikely to admit such because that would mean admitting her whole life has been run as a train wreck of her own making.

To admit her behaviours now would mean having to accept she was an abusive parent, a "failed" wife, a "failed" daughter and a "nuisance employee" in the workplace.

This is just my own personal opinion - at the very least from a legal perspective she is culpable and I regard quite aware of "wrongness" of her behaviours and their likely impact.

I might add I have very little sympathy after being at the receiving end of decades of abusive behaviours: that I believe she is aware is a significant reason for not engaging in any meaningful level with the woman.

PS. I wouldn't be letting my mother anywhere near her grandchildren, were I to have children of my own: she is just too dangerous to be trusted on the emotional / psychological levels.

[caughtnreleased]

It is my opinion that my uBPD mother is actually quite aware of the impact of her behaviours. It's just that she's highly unlikely to admit such because that would mean admitting her whole life has been run as a train wreck of her own making.

To admit her behaviours now would mean having to accept she was an abusive parent, a "failed" wife, a "failed" daughter and a "nuisance employee" in the workplace.

This is just my own personal opinion - at the very least from a legal perspective she is culpable and I regard quite aware of "wrongness" of her behaviours and their likely impact.

I might add I have very little sympathy after being at the receiving end of decades of abusive behaviours: that I believe she is aware is a significant reason for not engaging in any meaningful level with the woman.

PS. I wouldn't be letting my mother anywhere near her grandchildren, were I to have children of my own: she is just too dangerous to be trusted on the emotional / psychological levels.

Basenji,
Thanks for sharing. I suppose there are different levels of awareness. A lot of your experience sounds very similar to mine - all the way down to attacking me on the basis of my physical transformations when I was a teenager. 

I ask this because I recently witnessed her doing something with the grandchildren which sowed discord and hurt. The thing is the closest she has ever come to admitting any wrong doing is from observing my sisters life which is chaotic, unhappy marriage, and the children are starting to exhibit emotional problems. My mother asked - what caused this? It was almost a rhetorical question. Between my sisters life and mine (perpetually single) she is certainly asking questions. That and her own sister has thoroughly messed up her own children - both suffer from mental issues, one of whom suffers from extreme anxiety and depression to the point of being unable to function in life today.

But still - now my mothers new mission is to "save the grandchildren" - maybe to make up for her past mistakes - except she started triangulating and it causes incredible distress. Even when I tell her to rectify it - she pretends she doesn't understand my instructions and makes things worse. This is where I am wondering - something is deeply deeply wrong.

My sisters is too enmeshed with my mother see it - she also is completely unsupported in her marriage so my mother is stepping in to fill in the shoes of the supportive spouse - except then they end up in an ugly triangle. Ugh.

Please, please let me find a loving and supportive person to leave this all behind.

[Basenji]

... .now my mothers new mission is to "save the grandchildren" - maybe to make up for her past mistakes - except she started triangulating and it causes incredible distress. Even when I tell her to rectify it - she pretends she doesn't understand my instructions and makes things worse. This is where I am wondering - something is deeply deeply wrong.

My sisters is too enmeshed with my mother see it - she also is completely unsupported in her marriage so my mother is stepping in to fill in the shoes of the supportive spouse - except then they end up in an ugly triangle. Ugh.

You well may be right in your first theory that your mother has awareness of her own negative contribution and is seeking make up for past mistakes.

However, and only based on my own personal experiences (and readings on the topic) the alternative theory - she is just creating another round of enmeshment and bad behaviour - may be more likely! To master our situations with a borderline perhaps we need to put ourselves in their heads / walk in their shoes. To do that we need to remember that they do not function like  a"normal" person. If we did something wrong we might naturally seek redeem ourselves, rectify the problem, clear the air, fix things up! But a borderline sees themselves as the centre of the world.

"Saving the children" creates an opportunity for the borderline to become a martyr, the person who is always right, setting themselves up as a better person than their daughters who obviously have failed their grandchildren (in their eyes). An opportunity to prove they were right all along and it was others who caused the problems in the family.

My mother's oft used phrases: "Oh I have no idea what I've done to you to make you behave like this"... ."You had a perfect childhood"... ."You've never been in love, you don't know what love is"... ."She's not the right partner for you"... .

So have I contradicted myself in my posts? Perhaps not - I think there is a degree of awareness (my mother would know she is behaving inappropriately and must realise she has caused problems) yet she probably has not been able to analyse the situation at the level of our discussions since she is denial about having a deleterious personality type. As you say, "different levels pf awareness".

Either way, the borderline still has the capacity to cause havoc in a family and the potential to seriously mess up kids (who are particularly vulnerable).

With that in mind, would it be bold of me to suggest that in your situation I would have to decide whether I had a desire / responsibility to protect my younger relatives. If yes, maybe you could attempt further facilitation of your siblings' understanding - perhaps your siblings need to be encouraged to read the obvious books ("Walking on Eggshells", "Surviving a Borderline Parent" and "Silently Seduced" - surely they have a vested interest in working out what's going wrong with the kids and learning how to fix it? Anyway, just a suggestion, that may or may not apply in your case. They might also be encouraged to read some of the materials on this website. Who knows, perhaps the light bulbs will go on!

Having been at the receiving end of some pretty indisious abuse in my own childhood from my uBPD mother I can but caution on the risks of underestimating the potential harms that can befall children and crediting the actions of borderlines with positive perspectives when in fact there is the risk that their stock trade is in drama, self-centred behaviour at the expense of others.

Perhaps we have also to be aware of our own emotional / psychological need to find the good person inside our borderline parent - to find the ideal parent we never had: it is tempting to believe that they are trying to do the right thing, but in reality they do not change (without great effort) and the only thing we can do is learn the best way to either avoid or control the situation.

I do hope you find a good and loving person to share a happy and wholesome family environment away from the difficulties in the rest of you family.

[caughtnreleased]

With that in mind, would it be bold of me to suggest that in your situation I would have to decide whether I had a desire / responsibility to protect my younger relatives. If yes, maybe you could attempt further facilitation of your siblings' understanding - perhaps your siblings need to be encouraged to read the obvious books ("Walking on Eggshells", "Surviving a Borderline Parent" and "Silently Seduced" - surely they have a vested interest in working out what's going wrong with the kids and learning how to fix it? Anyway, just a suggestion, that may or may not apply in your case. They might also be encouraged to read some of the materials on this website. Who knows, perhaps the light bulbs will go on!

Thank you basenji for your message. I have tried to educate my sister, and have told her I believe my mother has strong BPD traits - unfortunately my sister is simply too enmeshed, and I also believe has some strong BPD traits - her husband also has major abandonment/clingy issues with his children.

For a while my sister agreed with me about how crazy my mother was - but she cannot, CANNOT stop herself from seeking my mothers approval, constantly. She will one day present the face of a sister, and the next day stab me in the back for a little crumb of love from my mother. She is much too enmeshed with my mother. The fact is she has chosen an unhealthy spouse, she has an unhealthy mother and she herself has rage/depression issues. These things are so deep that I am limited in what I can do - which is simply to spend time with the kids and give them a different role model than the messed up family that they come from. I know it's sad. It has often pained me to see the children be treated in the way that I was treated, but... .I believe I am limited in what I can do. The best thing that I can really do is build my own healthy and supportive family - but dating in 2017 is a whole other forum... .and headache.

[Fie]

Hello Caughtnreleased   

These things are so deep that I am limited in what I can do - which is simply to spend time with the kids and give them a different role model than the messed up family that they come from. I know it's sad. It has often pained me to see the children be treated in the way that I was treated, but... .I believe I am limited in what I can do. 

I think doing what you are doing is not such a limited thing at all. Your presence in their lives may be essential for your sisters' children.  They need someone who behaves normal, and who loves them. If you can offer them just that, you will have made a big difference.

xx

[Basenji]

... .what I can do - which is simply to spend time with the kids and give them a different role model than the messed up family that they come from... .The best thing that I can really do is build my own healthy and supportive family - but dating in 2017 is a whole other forum... .and headache.

Good call  

I think we are far from alone in deciding to put ourselves first. Tending to our own health and the development of healthy relationships around us is crucial in my opinion. In any case, when we are in a confident and healthy state, arguably we are in a better place to help others who are deserving.  

As Fie has already aired, you may be in a good position to help the children by providing them with a normal and loving relationship and thereby make a big difference.  

In my own case, my two grandmothers and one or two family friends provided very valuable support. I now look back with enormous gratitude for their role: knowing there were at least one or two folk offering unconditional love, worthy adult role models, and a haven from the abusive environment did play a significant part in my childhood and early adulthood.

As I become more aware of the realities of those years, I appreciate their presence and gentle steerage all the more.

Oh yeah, the dating thing can be a bit trying at times: I find myself single after a 5 year relationship and the idea of finding someone and building a new relationship from scratch can seem a little daunting at times. Finding someone who is supportive without slipping into co-dependency can also be tricky. But then I do find that when I'm in a confident and positive frame of mind, with one or two goals to buoy me along, people do seem to appear out of the woodwork and the happy times with the promise of bright future can kick in before you know it!  

Good luck!  

 

[caughtnreleased]

Thank you Basenji and Fie - your support and encouragement means a lot. These situations are never easy, especially when small and vulnerable children are involved.

Aside from this, I do feel like I'm in a really good place in my life these days - i'm in transition but I feel ok and confident about it. I do hope I meet someone who will help me build a healthy and supportive family life. It would be my dream come true - before I never even dreamed it because I didn't know it existed. Today I know it does, and it is really the greatest wish I have for myself.
Thank you.