Setting boundaries

[takingandsending]

Hi all. I am in process of collaborative divorce with STBuBPDxw of 17 years; have S5 and S11 together; temporary residential schedule set. I am moving out of the house in 1 week and into a month to month rental. We are at a bit of a standstill because all of the legal fees are hitting us at the same time - I am just about out of money on my L's  retainer, she has to re-up the retainer with her L, and the divorce coach/mediator bill is due as well. So, meetings are done until we pay up, with the exception of this Saturday when we meet for mediation on parent plan. I have been reading the lessons here on parent plans, and am finishing my proposed version.

But what I really need help with is setting boundaries. My ex has stated that she wants to help set up the house I am moving into so that the boys can "feel part of her is in the space". I actually want my sons to get to choose their bed linens and what bedroom they want and how they would like to decorate it. I know that this will not happen with my wife there - she will fuss and chip away at their and my resolve until she gets her way. Of course, she is framing it that I am controlling things and excluding her. I know there is an underlying fear that is driving her. Need help in keeping my boundary - I don't really want her in my new home! It's funny because she is a total freak about me coming into our bedroom, which I am no longer sleeping in, and how I am violating her space. Anyway, can't wait to be out, but don't want her coming in, either. Any thoughts of how to do this without escalating to the point that we spend all of Saturday mediation talking about it to the tune of $150/hour?

Also, struggling on keeping the financial boundaries clean. It should be easier after the split, but right now as we slip into credit debt for the first time in over a decade, I am finding it easier to just pay kids' school tuition or her L bill on my cards, but I have no assurances that she will own half that debt. I can already see how she is building her "facts" in her mind that I said I'd pay for her L until we split my paycheck, when what I really agreed to was that we would jointly be responsible for all legal fees (hers, mine, ours) until we split my paycheck between households (at which point we go it alone). I don't know how to untangle this without escalation. Any thoughts on how, again, to communicate clearly that: a) she is responsible for half the debt incurred from putting school tuition on credit card and b) for half the legal fees incurred to date, regardless of whose card takes on the debt?

Feeling daunted with how messy this is becoming. I think I am experiencing the push into all of my business/boundaries as I get closer to leaving. Can't imagine it will get easier when I am gone, other than I will be able to think a little more clearly.

[livednlearned]

One week!

With the kids' space -- if I'm reading your post right, you would like to get through Saturday. So you are looking for a way to kick this down the road without giving in?

Of course, this all assumes that, other than this one issue, she will be compliant on Saturday 

The more important thing in my mind would be to set a strong boundary of respect that the new house is your house. I know the money piece is important (believe me). I also know that trying to regain a lost boundary is pretty tough and this challenge will only be the first of many.

Brainstorming some ideas:

1. Take pictures of the room/s, let her see them, diagram things out and have her recommend where furniture should go, what linens she recommends.

2. Find an online store and pin the things the boys pick out, and let her see what they choose. Ask her to suggest any alternatives.

3. Arrange it so that the boys want to surprise her, and that if the stuff doesn't meet her standards, you are willing to return things or discuss alternatives.

4. Ask her to pin things she wants them to have, then, after Saturday, sit down with the boys and ask them if they are ok with the choices.

I will say that her feelings are understandable -- it's her insistence on having control that is difficult. I was the one who moved out and it was very difficult for my ex to have no knowledge of what our placed looked like. (My ex was more high conflict and dangerous than yours, which in some ways made it easier to set boundaries.) Whatever you decide, it's probably fair to say that she will try to make you feel the way she feels.

If it were me in your shoes, I would try to honor the feeling without surrendering the boundary. Let her put a toe over the line, like asking her to frame some pictures of herself for the kids' rooms. Or be involved in some way without her having the final say.

 

[ForeverDad]

My ex has stated that she wants to help set up the house I am moving into so that the boys can "feel part of her is in the space".

Notice how she is guilting you?  Her 'leverage' is that it's for the children.  No, as you wrote it's for her and her sense of control and influence.  You know she's pushing a boundary you and the children need.  It will be your home, not hers.  Yet if you try to reason with her or explain yourself and your feelings, it won't work.  She's slicker at guilt and manipulation than you are.  So while I don't know how best to express it or even whether to express it, you know you want your presence and the children's presence felt there.  She can do what she pleases (at her expense!) in her residence.  This is not her home.  It's time she accepts that line in the sand.

Remember the War on Drugs?  "Just say No."  Yes it's hard to do, even harder to stick to it, but it's amazing how once you take a stand it is easier to maintain that stand.  At least if you do that whatever you end up with will be better than taking the middle road.  (Whatever stand you start with - even our natural inclination to be 'too' fair - she will try to chip away at it and so why not start out with a stand solidly on your side?)

My separation was so high conflict that I have never been in her residences.  Similarly, I made a reciprocal policy.  I did make an exception just once post-separation when her sibling was visiting for the first time and they all got a tour of the house.

So, I ask you, do you ever expect to be entering her residences post-separation?  Do you want her entering yours?  Generally with our high conflict histories it is best to have a policy... .your home is yours, my home is mine.

I don't recall, does she work?  Is her income anywhere near yours?  If so then why can't she put her lawyer's bill on her cards?  If not then try to get it written in any agreement that any payment (=debt) you make to pay her lawyer is DEDUCTED from her portion of marital assets when financials are reconciled.  That gives you a 100% return, and it is 100% FAIR.  There are variations which may feel less painful or triggering to her.  For example, maybe you get reimbursed from the marital equity in the house when sold before that is split between spouses.

That said, your separation is not as sudden and stark as mine was.  I don't know whether you should bend what I wrote above.  If you do, then find a way to strengthen your boundary soon before she's asking for a key to your new residence and passwords to your security system.  (As it is she may pressure or manipulate the kids to let her in if you're not there... .I need to use the bathroom, I need a drink of water, I need to eat something because my sugar is low, I need to put these groceries in the refrigerator, etc.)

[takingandsending]

3. Arrange it so that the boys want to surprise her, and that if the stuff doesn't meet her standards, you are willing to return things or discuss alternatives.

I like this approach. It is the least invasive, and keeps the ball out of her court.

I will say that her feelings are understandable -- it's her insistence on having control that is difficult. I was the one who moved out and it was very difficult for my ex to have no knowledge of what our placed looked like.

Like all things with my wife, there is always some element of it that is imminently understandable. But if I give that little bit of understanding, then the demands grow and grow and basically never stop. There is no satisfying her need for control. To be honest, I have huge reservations over leaving, and it's not because of what sheets the kids will have on their beds (she chose those without me, surprise surprise). I am angry because I worry about: will she run over my sons with her anger and guilt trips, who will protect them when I am not there, will she let them keep their own money and support them in how they choose to spend it (provided it is reasonable and not dangerous), will she encourage them to be independent and self confident, will she help with chores in the house or henpeck them to do everything that she won't do herself. And unfortunately, I know the answers to all of these questions because I have witnessed them for over a decade. Yet, I am having to fend her off on stupid, f-ing bed sheets? Really? When I look at things squarely, as they are, the cold reality hits me of just how ridiculous my life has become. I guess I am still really angry at myself for not having the emotional intelligence and strength to just have said no to all this long ago. So, what's one more circumstance where I give in a little to try to get away a bit more cleanly? But I never get away, and it's never clean. Does that make sense at all? I feel like I am becoming petty because I am afraid that I won't be able to stop her once I allow her within any of my boundaries ... .even a toe.

[takingandsending]

Notice how she is guilting you?  Her 'leverage' is that it's for the children.  No, as you wrote it's for her and her sense of control and influence.  You know she's pushing a boundary you and the children need.  It will be your home, not hers.  Yet if you try to reason with her or explain yourself and your feelings, it won't work.  She's slicker at guilt and manipulation than you are.  So while I don't know how best to express it or even whether to express it, you know you want your presence and the children's presence felt there.  She can do what she pleases (at her expense!) in her residence.  This is not her home.  It's time she accepts that line in the sand.

Remember the War on Drugs?  "Just say No."  Yes it's hard to do, even harder to stick to it, but it's amazing how once you take a stand it is easier to maintain that stand.  At least if you do that whatever you end up with will be better than taking the middle road.  (Whatever stand you start with - even our natural inclination to be 'too' fair - she will try to chip away at it and so why not start out with a stand solidly on your side?)

I do remember the War on Drugs "Just Say No", which is a really bad example because it was a terribly ineffective policy. 
But I understand what you are saying. Truth is, I am still in FOG more than I want to admit. And I am having to admit it, right now, which is sort of like ":)ang! Again?" I actually had to re-read her text to see, literally, see in writing why I was feeling angry and resentful. It was her words "Keep that in mind when you go forward with making sure I'm not part of anything." that laid the guilt on. And I think to myself: she is staying in our house, she retains over 50% residential time with the kids, she is keeping the majority of household furnishings, we are splitting the paycheck that I work for. Yet, she is not a part of anything because I want the kids to pick out their own bed sheets and decorate the house with them and not with her. This is the distillation of my life with my wife. I know that it she is ill. I know her behavior is driven by fear of emptiness and being left alone. I even know that her crummy childhood fostered her odd thoughts. But, what's left out of all of that is me - I am nowhere to be found. And I feel like I will never begin to rediscover myself if I keep engaging her. So, I think I will take lnl's approach of letting the boys have their choice, and letting her see what they have chosen. I can acknowledge how she feels but maintain control of what I choose. And you are right. Each time a boundary can be spoken, the stronger it gets and easier it becomes.

I will look at the second half of your post later today. Thanks for being there ForeverDad

[livednlearned]

"Keep that in mind when you go forward with making sure I'm not part of anything."

There will be many more instances of this. Guilt trips, threats, blaming. Especially as the shoe fully drops and she realizes your home is your home.

The thing is, this guilty stuff will happen no matter what you do. It might happen less if you hone your skills (which may be easier to do as a coparent when you have time to regroup and build strength), but it will happen even if you have amazing abilities to validate her.

Bill Eddy has another good book (most are familiar with Splitting) called Don't Alienate the Kids -- that's the book that made me realize every decision I made, every action I took, was modeling for my son how to deal with conflict.

I was a bit wobbly in the beginning, but I started to run through things out loud with S15. "I know dad wants to come pick you up in the apartment and be able to see where you're living when you're with me. I understand that. I would feel the same way. Right now, I feel better having him stay in the parking lot. We can watch from the balcony to see when he gets here. Let's see how this goes for a while. If things feel respectful, you and I can talk about inviting him in. Based on how things have been, my concern is that xyz will happen and I prefer to make choices that take into consideration how I feel."

That kind of thing.

Because our kids become the punching bags for the boundaries we set. Modeling for them what we do is one way to help them manage the conflict that goes with out situations.

[takingandsending]

I don't recall, does she work?  Is her income anywhere near yours?  If so then why can't she put her lawyer's bill on her cards?  If not then try to get it written in any agreement that any payment (=debt) you make to pay her lawyer is DEDUCTED from her portion of marital assets when financials are reconciled.  That gives you a 100% return, and it is 100% FAIR.  There are variations which may feel less painful or triggering to her.  For example, maybe you get reimbursed from the marital equity in the house when sold before that is split between spouses.

My wife is self employed. She made about $6-7k gross last year for a $6000 loss after expenses. So no, her income is nowhere near mine. I recall you stating that you had your wife's salary projected at an imputed wage of minimum wage at 20 or 40 hours a week. I have yet to get my L to answer if that is possible in this case. But regarding the debt, what you described is the plan. Two households, her lawyer on her card (except he apparently won't take credit cards), my lawyer on my card, mediator split between us. But for this joint debt that I have placed on my card, either she has to transfer half on to her card or, as you say, it comes out of the marital assets upon reconciliation. I am going to record the date the debt was accrued on my card, the agreement we made, so that there is a clear written record of it.

It's sad. She just told me it felt wrong because I included our lawnmower and weed whacker that she got as Father's Day gifts for me many years ago on a list of things that I want to take to the new house. She complains that she has no room for her voice to be heard in my demands. Truth, I am taking about 5 boxes of stuff (my photos, my books, my CDs/DVDs, clothes, my camping gear, meditation cushion and a few odds and ends). Everything, and I mean everything is staying with her. But I'm demanding for asking for a juicer and a lawnmower. It really is true - if we set our minds to it, we could die of thirst in the middle of a vast lake. Every moment with her is becoming a raw reminder of just how awfully lopsided this marriage has been. There were moments of generosity, sharing and care, but mostly it has been a one way equation, and I get to see that in all of its sheer ugliness right now.

Tomorrow, I will shop with the boys in the morning for the linens and pillows and things to make a space for us. Sunday, I will be setting up house. I am glad I chose a place when I did. These last several months have been hell.

[GaGrl]

It's the insidious encroachment that can get to you.  If you let her "help" with your new house, how long would it be before she asks for a key?

[formflier]

I would "say no" in a nice way... and "point out" a healthy relationship value.

Let her set up her house in way that supports HER relationship with "our" children.

You will set up your house in a way that supports YOUR relationship with "our" children.

Thank her for the interest in healthy relationships and good boundaries.  (yeah... I would use the word, unless you know it is triggering).  Important that you say it in a thankful, but matter of fact tone.  (it's just the way it is.)

If there is history of "giving a little" and having that satisfy, then perhaps allow her in a bit.  Perhaps.

However, most pwBPD are the get and inch and take a mile sort.  Just say no (politely) is better.

FF

[Panda39]

It's the insidious encroachment that can get to you.  If you let her "help" with your new house, how long would it be before she asks for a key?

I agree your new home is your new home and does not include her.  It's hard but she needs to be reminded of the reality here... .you are separated and you now have your own space that your son's will share and she has her space that she shares with them.  It's hard and you don't want to hurt anyone but you really do need to stand your ground around "your space" pwBPD are really good boundary busters and you try to be nice and give an inch in my experience she will take about 100 miles!

You could certainly come up with a SET statement that might make the boundary easier for her to take... .

I know you want to make sure the boys get settled in and that it's difficult to share their time but I really think it is important for the boys and I that they and I set up their new room together at my new place so we can all get used to it together.

Maybe something like that.

Panda39

 

[takingandsending]

Brief update.

Spent Saturday and Sunday with the boys shopping for bedding, towels, food and clothes. Sunday, the boys got to look at their bedrooms and move stuff around a bit - they seemed pretty happy with their digs.

STBxw says S5 is confused about whether she is allowed there. Said she is afraid if she comes over, she will be treated like a stalker. I said for the first 2 weeks, starting this Wednesday when I move out, I needed her to stay out of the space, just to let us settle in and get used to the new arrangement. I told her that I would invite her over for dinner or the like some time after that to see what it looks like. She wants a key in case of emergency, but I am going to route her through the owner who lives adjacent to the rental. I mentioned that I anticipated returning my old house key. She seems to think I need it in case of emergency. Not really sure I see the need for that. Thoughts?

She asserts that it is unfair as I am already "established" in the old house, and she is not "established" at all in the new rental house. I have no idea why she would need to be. I haven't asked the boys to have pictures of me up on the walls of the old house to remember me by. Still, I will offer to them that they can have pictures of mom to bring to the new house and put up in their room.

Mostly, a good peaceful time with the boys, which gives me some hope that things are looking up.

[formflier]

If you can "kick the can" of dinner down the road a few more weeks... .it might fizzle and never happen.  Which would likely be a good thing.

You could certainly validate things not "feeling fair"... .but that you guys will do what is best to help kids establish boundaries.

I'm having a hard time imagining why she would need to gain entry "during an emergency"... .

I WOULD make sure the LL knows she is ex... .and may try to gain entry.  I would make sure there is a firm and clear procedure if you decide to let her have "emergency access".


FF

[takingandsending]

Hi FF.
The emergency thing threw me - one of us incapacitated, ill, etc. with frantic kid calling other parent? Wouldn't kids let us in? Otherwise, what? I am hoping the whole "need to see" thing blows over after a bit. I've stated 2 weeks, but right after that, I take the boys to see their grandparents in Florida for 12 days. By the time we get back ... .hopefully no more interest.

Good point on the landlord. I will let him know that she may seek entry. I can't understand why she would, but who knows?

[formflier]

In a true emergency... .fire department will get in... .(it would be interesting to see her reaction to you telling her this)... .

FF

[GaGrl]

Told you she'd want a key... .

[takingandsending]

She can want. Yes, it is invasive, but she never met a boundary she liked. Then she complains about how I don't respect her boundaries. ah well, hard to leave that behind but I will manage

[whirlpoollife]

She is manipulating and controling you like a puppet.
It is really hard to set boundries at first. But you've got to start. And be consistent as she will push and push.    It is ok to do that!  The guilt will shed away.  I know I have went thought it.   My xh wanted a court order "for the children" to have a key to my house so they could come and go as they pleased.  Really ? It was so he could have a key to come in whenever he pleased. 
I m going to be a bit harsh here but next she will want you to lay down in front of your door so she can continue to use you as her doormat. Do you want your kids to see that and think that's normal ?

[Swiggle]

I'm with GaGrl, I had a feeling she would want a key. Reminds me of the story my DH told me of his ex... .the first time she dropped the kids off to him in his new apartment she demanded a key so that she could come in anytime she wanted since her children were going to be living there. He told her no of course. I could only imagine the issues. coming in whenever they wanted, possibly stealing things. And by her suggesting you have a key to the house she is in, I would wonder if she would ever make false claims that you took something or did something to the house without her permission?

[livednlearned]

By the time we get back ... .hopefully no more interest.

 

You did a good job establishing a boundary, and you have the Florida trip to create some additional psychological (and physical) distance. What a relief! I hope you have a wonderful time with your kids.  

But... .my hunch is that she will revisit this topic in one way or another.

She's probably already prone to feeling incapacitating emotional loneliness, and it's (very likely) about to get worse for her.

Chances are she will continue to use the kids to resolve her emotional distress. She asked S5 to explain whether she could be in the house or not and then used or distorted that exchange to pump you on boundaries.

Once you get some time dealing with her as an ex, it gets easier to ignore the decoy of whatever drama of the day occupies her, and focus instead on how your kids feel about being used to parent their mother.  

[takingandsending]

Thanks, lnl (and others).

I am not too worried about the key. I have no plan on giving her one, and it's my choice. I do worry about her wanting to come over, and I have a hunch that she will continue to use use the kids to try to make this happen. I can't and don't want to control what she does. I can only be responsible for what I do, and that will be to act in the best interest of my sons.

My position is: don't close doors to things that support the boys; do close doors to things that bring no apparent benefit to the boys but may sustain the dysfunction we have created. The desperate need for control is the current that runs beneath much of what moves my STBxw, and it's a strong current to withstand - hard for me, even harder for two young kids. I am certain that all of you have found where you allow, the limits around any allowance, and where you don't. That is the process I am now in.

I read that it would be best to have as little interaction as possible for 2 years after the divorce - keep to BIFF, written communication to extent possible. That is my aim. Given that I am just starting separate residential schedule tomorrow, that I do not want to escalate a fight right now as it is very important that I establish this schedule to prevent her from considering moving the boys out of area/state, I am taking a moderate approach v. a hard line approach. If that makes me a doormat, so be it. This is one moment. I get that this stirs a lot of resentment, concern and emotion for many of you who have already gone through it, but all that really means is that we all still carry wounds that haven't completely healed. I make no contention about mine, I am still in it and trying to heal from it at the same time. It's a process.

All this to say, I was not feeling FOGgy when she expressed her wish to have access to my rental house. I was feeling the loss of how to respond without making things worse. I validated, I empathized, I spoke a part of my truth (need time to settle in). And yes, I hope to speak my whole truth (I do not want you at my house) going forward.

[ForeverDad]

Somehow they know how to catch us off-guard.  With us (or the kids) unprepared then the pressuring or guilting of the moment will be harder to handle.  Do some practice sessions in front of a mirror?

[takingandsending]

I am going to take a look at the Bill Eddy book, Don't Alienate the Kids. Mostly, I am needing to learn a communication strategy that validates my sons' experience (and my own) without making more stress for everyone. Hopefully, I can learn to lessen the caught off guard moments. I have spent the last 20 years not learning. I am willing to learn now.

One thing is for certain: it's really helpful reading and seeing some of the things on the boards that people have experienced because I am less taken by surprise at some of the crazy. I appreciate all your thoughts, advice and sentiments. I'll post back after the move has settled in a bit. Or if stuff falls apart during ... .
 

[formflier]

So... .one think you need to think through. 

When you and your kids are at your place... .and there is a knock on the door... .and it's her.

I hope she doesn't ever try it... .but since she is anxious about boundaries and separateness... .it's something you should be ready for.

Thoughts?

FF

[takingandsending]

Entering week 2 of shared custody and separate households. The typical sorts of bumps, but mostly positive to report.

She vented to the mediator about unfairness of boundaries around our households but seems to have it out of her system for the time being. She appears to like having the time off. She is taking a spur of the moment trip out of state to take a class, so I get the boys for an extra Sunday overnight, which is great.

Most important, the kids seem happy when they come, and they can enjoy no drama at the house. They ask for things, and if its reasonable, they receive without lecture, blame or strings attached. All what I had hoped for them in making this move. A parent told me she was surprised how happy the boys seem going through this type of transition, which just tells me how much stress was in the house before I left.

Appreciate all of the support. Will post more as stuff comes up. Still have the money and property to sort out, but this is a big first step (and relief).