Not sure what is going on here...

[MaroonLiquid]

My ex emailed me this morning asking about a softball money situation as she is the treasurer for my organization (seems like another veiled attempt at communication as we've discussed it before).  

I responded with... .Good morning!  Thanks for sending this to me.  I appreciate all you do to keep this stuff straight!  Let me think on this for a bit!  Also, I miss you too!  

Also, tomorrow is my 40th birthday.  We'll see if she wishes me a happy birthday.  

Thoughts?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Fian]

Did she say that she misses you?  You said that you miss her too, so just wondering if she said it first.

[MaroonLiquid]

Did she say that she misses you?  You said that you miss her too, so just wondering if she said it first.

No, I just threw that in there.  Just trying to cut out the "veiled" communication.  Stupid me huh?  

[formflier]

  Stupid me huh?  

Not stupid... .it's how you feel.  You were honest.

That being said... .it does run the risk of invalidation and/or getting on the wrong side of push pull. 

At this point... I see it as a bit of "what do you have to loose"?  type of thing.

Would you rather be honest about your feelings or would you rather try to read the tea leaves of BPD before you communicate?

FF

[Fian]

No, I just threw that in there.  Just trying to cut out the "veiled" communication.  Stupid me huh?  

It has been suggested that she is pulling away from you because you got too close.  If that is the case, she will continue to pull away so long as you keep pulling.  If you want her to return, then I think you need to let her do all the effort for now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Not stupid... .it's how you feel.  You were honest.

That being said... .it does run the risk of invalidation and/or getting on the wrong side of push pull. 

At this point... I see it as a bit of "what do you have to loose"?  type of thing.

Would you rather be honest about your feelings or would you rather try to read the tea leaves of BPD before you communicate?

FF

I knew the risks, but as you said, "reading the teal leaves of BPD" gets rather old.

It has been suggested that she is pulling away from you because you got too close.  If that is the case, she will continue to pull away so long as you keep pulling.  If you want her to return, then I think you need to let her do all the effort for now.

I hear you.  She actually came out to practice this evening and sat on the bleachers and talked to one of the parents.  She showed up after practice began and left before it was over.  I didn't get a chance to talk to her as I was in the middle of coaching.  I think it worked out better that way though as I won't just drop what I'm doing to go talk to her.  I will see her at the tournament this weekend.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

[formflier]

So... what is your goal?

If your goal is to get back in her life then next time she wants to talk, you should quickly disengage and ask when a better time is, since you are busy with what you are busy with.

Put the ball back in her court and show minimal interest (some... but minimal).

Also realize it may take a while for that to work.  Hopefully (for you) you can live your life in the meantime.

Frankly:  I hope living your life involves being open to other, new... healthy relationships showing up in your life.  Don't wait on her.  I'm also not suggesting that you completely discard her.  It's obvious that you still have "hope" for the r/s.

It's a tough paradox to deal with... .that the best way to "have a chance" at a r/s with her is to show that you are ok NOT having a r/s with her.

Thoughts?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

So... what is your goal?

If your goal is to get back in her life then next time she wants to talk, you should quickly disengage and ask when a better time is, since you are busy with what you are busy with.

Put the ball back in her court and show minimal interest (some... but minimal).

Also realize it may take a while for that to work.  Hopefully (for you) you can live your life in the meantime.

Frankly:  I hope living your life involves being open to other, new... healthy relationships showing up in your life.  :)on't wait on her.  I'm also not suggesting that you completely discard her.  It's obvious that you still have "hope" for the r/s.

It's a tough paradox to deal with... .that the best way to "have a chance" at a r/s with her is to show that you are ok NOT having a r/s with her.

Thoughts?

FF

I was actually surprised she texted me this morning to tell me happy birthday.  I honestly didn't think she would.  I thanked her for thinking of me.  She then told me that her daughter would be a little late to practice tonight and I said thanks for letting me know.  I responded that I would be a little late also as my son has a school program.  I then said, "See you tonight." And left it at that.  

I am open to other healthy r/s for the first time and not waiting on her.  Honestly, I am in a much different place than I was two years ago.  I am fine either way!  I am in a much different place!  Would I love for her to be in my life?  Yes, but I'm ok if it ends up being someone else.

[formflier]

" And left it at that.  

Nice work... .very neutral and appropriately appreciative of the sentiment she was sending you.   

I am in a much different place!  

That is completely obvious to me.   

Something to think through. 

When to broach the subject of your past with new people that you meet.  General advice.  Wait.  Let them earn the right to get those kind of details. 

When to broach the subject of a new r/s with your ex.  General advice.  Wait.  Right now I'm struggling to conceive of a situation where you would "need" to tell her.

"I'm not available then... " is all she needs to know, if you have plans with someone else.

Some FF musings:  Perhaps my biggest "ahh haa" thing over the past 6 months... maybe longer is that I'm no longer expecting any radical change to come from my wife.  She has a "mentor" which is a lay person at church she studies Bible with.  My take is it gives her someone to complain to (instead of me)... so that is a plus.  But I don't see any reordering of who she is or how she thinks.

I've not heard anything from you to suggest that your ex is "working on herself"... so... .expect her to be "roughly the same" in a year.

My hope is you will continue on the path your are on.

So... .I'm building my life and doing my thing.  My wife can get cranky about me "not telling her things"... .but it doesn't phase me anymore.  I do what I need.

So... .what I'm saying is, that I hope you plan for what your fall will look like with the assumption that your ex is going to "be the same".

What does this coming fall look like for you?

FF

[Balance714]

I knew the risks, but as you said, "reading the teal leaves of BPD" gets rather old.

I hear you.  She actually came out to practice this evening and sat on the bleachers and talked to one of the parents.  She showed up after practice began and left before it was over.  I didn't get a chance to talk to her as I was in the middle of coaching.  I think it worked out better that way though as I won't just drop what I'm doing to go talk to her.  I will see her at the tournament this weekend.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

So how did it go this weekend with your ex?

[MaroonLiquid]

Nice work... .very neutral and appropriately appreciative of the sentiment she was sending you.   


That is completely obvious to me.   

Something to think through. 

When to broach the subject of your past with new people that you meet.  General advice.  Wait.  Let them earn the right to get those kind of details. 

When to broach the subject of a new r/s with your ex.  General advice.  Wait.  Right now I'm struggling to conceive of a situation where you would "need" to tell her.

"I'm not available then... " is all she needs to know, if you have plans with someone else.

Some FF musings:  Perhaps my biggest "ahh haa" thing over the past 6 months... maybe longer is that I'm no longer expecting any radical change to come from my wife.  She has a "mentor" which is a lay person at church she studies Bible with.  My take is it gives her someone to complain to (instead of me)... so that is a plus.  But I don't see any reordering of who she is or how she thinks.

I've not heard anything from you to suggest that your ex is "working on herself"... so... .expect her to be "roughly the same" in a year.

My hope is you will continue on the path your are on.

So... .I'm building my life and doing my thing.  My wife can get cranky about me "not telling her things"... .but it doesn't phase me anymore.  I do what I need.

So... .what I'm saying is, that I hope you plan for what your fall will look like with the assumption that your ex is going to "be the same".

What does this coming fall look like for you?

FF

I'm not sure I see my ex much different in a year either.  She lives from one crisis to another and that gets old.  In a few months, her oldest daughter graduates and then moves off to college.  That is going to be very difficult for her. 

As far as me, I will be a semester away from transferring away to the same college her oldest daughter will be at.  I will be working on finishing up more classes here and preparing to find a place up there to live.  As far as seeing other people, I'm not even sure what that looks like.  I still love my ex deeply, but know that until she makes some changes, we probably don't have a shot.

So how did it go this weekend with your ex?

This weekend went well.  We are communicating on a semi-regular basis, but nothing romantic.  We had a softball tournament over the weekend and her daughter got injured during one of the games and she had to take her home.  It's a good thing as there was a huge issue after one of the games.  One of the parents of the girls on the team threatened to kick my a$$ with my daughter standing right next to me because his daughter flat out lied to him.  Anyway, her daughter couldn't make practice yesterday because she told me she was sick.  I texted a few minutes ago to see how she was feeling and she hasn't responded yet.

[MaroonLiquid]

So this morning my uBPDex texted me out and asked me a random question about softball.  I answered and we texted for a bit.  She then asked how I was doing... .I asked if she meant about softball or in general.  She responded, "In general."  I told her that I'm ok and trying to get my class done.  I told her I missed her and the kids and asked how they were doing.  She told me about the kids but nothing about her.  I validated what I could and asked how she was doing.  She didn't respond.     I texted back an hour later and told her that it was ok to miss me.  Still no response.  I did call her on the phone and asked her a question about softball and she answered my question.  I asked her how work was going and she said, "Really busy as she has a bunch of deadlines by Friday."  I validated what I could and told her that I didn't want to keep her so she could get her work done.  She said, "Ok, talk to you later."  Thoughts on why she cares about how I'm doing?  Is that guilt, her feeling like crap or what?  I know that we can't get into the head of a person wBPD... .

[formflier]

 
My first reaction is that you are "overthinking the crazy"... .   

That being said, my best guess is that she still "wants" you... .but she wants to be in complete control of your "distance" from her.

I really doubt she could articulate this to you or even herself... .as in I don't think it is a plotting kind of thing... .I think it is driven by feelings.

Perhaps it is a way to figure out if she is going to crank up push pull... .so if you are drifting further away... she reels in... .

You ask how she is... silence (a bit of push back)

Maddening stuff... .but that's my best guess.

From one overthinker to another... .don't over think it!   

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Thoughts on why she cares about how I'm doing?  Is that guilt, her feeling like crap or what?  I know that we can't get into the head of a person wBPD... .

When I look at the back-and-forth texting, I see her playing hide and seek or maybe peek-a-boo intimacy with you, showing just a little interest, but then backing away when you show interest. Both of you are playing that game, though... .not just her!

If you try too hard to figure out what's going on in her head, you'll drive yourself nuts. (And probably come off as needy/clingy/pushy, which isn't very attractive to her)

Instead, think about what your role in this interaction is, why are you chasing after her, trying to figure out what she's thinking, what she's up to?

[MaroonLiquid]

When I look at the back-and-forth texting, I see her playing hide and seek or maybe peek-a-boo intimacy with you, showing just a little interest, but then backing away when you show interest. Both of you are playing that game, though... .not just her!

Instead, think about what your role in this interaction is, why are you chasing after her, trying to figure out what she's thinking, what she's up to?

"Peek-a-boo intimacy".  That's funny, but true!  I don't feel like I'm playing games, at least nowhere near what I used to!  I feel I'm a pretty straightforward person!

My role... .hmmm... .I've actually stayed pretty detached way better than I used to.  How do you see me chasing after her?  With the, "I miss you" stuff?

[Fian]

I think the bolded items are you chasing her.

So this morning my uBPDex texted me out and asked me a random question about softball.  I answered and we texted for a bit.  She then asked how I was doing... .I asked if she meant about softball or in general.  She responded, "In general."  I told her that I'm ok and trying to get my class done.  I told her I missed her and the kids and asked how they were doing.  She told me about the kids but nothing about her.  I validated what I could and asked how she was doing.  She didn't respond.     I texted back an hour later and told her that it was ok to miss me.  Still no response.  I did call her on the phone and asked her a question about softball and she answered my question.  I asked her how work was going and she said, "Really busy as she has a bunch of deadlines by Friday."  I validated what I could and told her that I didn't want to keep her so she could get her work done.  She said, "Ok, talk to you later."  Thoughts on why she cares about how I'm doing?  Is that guilt, her feeling like crap or what?  I know that we can't get into the head of a person wBPD... .

The final bold is just because you were asking her so many times how she was doing.

[MaroonLiquid]

I think the bolded items are you chasing her.

The final bold is just because you were asking her so many times how she was doing.

Interesting.  I appreciate you pointing that out.  I can see that.  I am starting to see the difference between "saying my truth" and "chasing".  There is a fine line!  A perfect example is when she texted me something yesterday and I said, "That's good, I'm glad!" And left it at that.  Haven't spoken to her since.  I'm much better about letting her be but see that I can still get healthier regarding communication.

[Fian]

Yes, it sounds like your last response is about right, at least from a push/pull perspective.

[Grey Kitty]

Yup, Fian got what I was pointing at.

First, she did show a bit of genuine interest in you, i.e. reaching out, first with a random softball question, then with more interest expressed... .(How are you? I mean in general... .)

Asking how she was was a reasonable move in response to this encouraging bit... .but when it fell flat, you kept chasing it.

You know, chances are, she sometimes feels 'safe' with you or 'safe' connecting with you, but other times does not. And chances are, no matter how much she invents some reason to blame you for it, the origin of this has nothing to do with you, either.

Your best bet is to let her back away when she wants to/needs to, and not know why 90% of the time. That's what a relationship with her will be like.

[MaroonLiquid]

Yup, Fian got what I was pointing at.

First, she did show a bit of genuine interest in you, i.e. reaching out, first with a random softball question, then with more interest expressed... .(How are you? I mean in general... .)

Asking how she was was a reasonable move in response to this encouraging bit... .but when it fell flat, you kept chasing it.

You know, chances are, she sometimes feels 'safe' with you or 'safe' connecting with you, but other times does not. And chances are, no matter how much she invents some reason to blame you for it, the origin of this has nothing to do with you, either.

Your best bet is to let her back away when she wants to/needs to, and not know why 90% of the time. That's what a relationship with her will be like.

You are probably right.  So today, I asked if I could pick something up from the house that my sister needed to borrow and she said that was fine.  I went and picked it up.  She invited me in and we talked for about an hour about different things.  It was very pleasant.  I caught myself going to put my arm around her and pulled back when I realized it.  I am trying to determine if that is my own insecurity or familiarity, but was proud of myself regardless.  It wasn't obvious so that was good.  Anyway, she said to her youngest daughter if she would like to get some ice cream.  She didn't ask me and I didn't assume she wanted me to tag along.  As we were walking out the door I got what I came for and put it in my car.  As I was loading it, she said, "Bye ML, be careful."  I said, "Bye, talk to you later." And left it at that.  I didn't call her after, instead I'm learning to let this ruminate with her.  I'm so much stronger than I used to be!

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, I got shot down today.   .  We had been talking (pretty much just softball except at her house the other night when we talked for a while about a lot of topics) and I thought I would invite her to lunch.  I even offered to take it to her house as I know she is trying to get a bunch of work done by tomorrow.  She replied, "No thanks."  I just left it at that.  It's frustrating as he! She's missing out.  Oh well.  Thanks for letting me vent!

[formflier]

Just remember... .if you are actually interested in closeness and doing things with her... .pursuit is the opposite of what you need to be doing.

Letting her see you move away from her... .is much more likely to trigger her desire to be close.

You then enjoy the close and move away before she pushes you away... .

Completely maddening and whacky... .but... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  Yeah, it is frustrating and tough... .but I think that what you did was excellent, probably the best thing you could do:

invite her to lunch.  I even offered to take it to her house as I know she is trying to get a bunch of work done by tomorrow.  She replied, "No thanks."  I just left it at that.

You were feeling like you wanted to be with her, so you honestly and with some vulnerability reached out. (That's what you want, right? A r/s where you can be honest about what you want, and have somebody respond in a good way?)

And the risk of being vulnerable is that you could get rejected. Which happened. Sigh. But taking the rejection at face value and going forward is still healthier.

Letting her see you move away from her... .is much more likely to trigger her desire to be close.

This may well be effective, but I don't think it is as healthy. It is playing into her push-pull games... .it is trying to "win" at the game, trying to manipulate her better than she manipulates you as a way to get what you want.

OTOH, if you don't engage at all in the push-pull game, she might someday, somehow, give up on yanking you around with it as much, purely on a pragmatic it-doesn't-work-with-ML way.

[MaroonLiquid]

I hear you!  That's basically how I handled it yesterday GK.  She said, "No thanks." And I didn't respond and let her sit with it.  She wants to be rude, then she can be rude by herself.  Then late late last night, she texted me about a package (again something trivial because we both knew it was coming) that was delivered to her house for my softball team.  As late as it was, I think she was feeling guilty about being rude.  I said , "Ok thanks" and asked if she could send me a picture of the item in the package.  She did and I thanked her for doing it.  I then left it at that again.  I'm not playing games with her.  I want a romantic relationship and not a r/s where I'm missed so I get texted about some BS.