Could validation help my lack of relationship with BPD MIL?

[TDeer]

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/validation.html


Can you validate someone at all if they were the aggressor?
I know I shouldn't validate my BPD MILs feelings regarding the fact that she doesn't like that her son got married. That's clear.

I know I shouldn't validate or respond in any way to her comments made to my husband about various things. She didn't say it to me, my husband wants to deal with it himself, etc. That's a separate item.

Is it possible that I could validate my BPD MIL in some way and that could help her stop splitting?


I doubt it greatly, since my therapist would have brought it up or probably someone here on the forum by this point.


One thing she's mad about was how I set a boundary. I can't validate her feelings since setting a boundary was a good thing. That was healthy. Her behavior was unhealthy and I set a boundary to protect myself from further harm.

I'm pretty sure I can't validate anything... .without giving her positive reinforcement to negative behaviors that I don't want to continue.

It's also been so long that I don't think it makes any sense to bring it up. She's split on me anyway and hates me, etc. My husband deals with her and I have LC almost no contact with her. I've seen her once since my husband and I got married. He is the "wall" between us to protect me from her antics and contain her. He has to ignore her tantrums from time to time as well, etc.

Before the weding, I wrote a letter to someone I was working with regarding my wedding way back when. FIL says that BPD MIL was "embarrassed" by my letter. (I had asked, that if I wanted to make up with her, how would I do it? FIL responded that I would have to apologize for something and suggested the correspondence I had).

The letter should never have been intercepted by BPD MIL. That's a boundary problem. I was already setting a boundary not to allow BPD MIL control of x, y, or z, activities. I let the wedding helper know in this written communication that they should contact my sister in case they needed clarification of anything and I wasn't available. Clear, easy, to the point.

Again, this was a communication that BPD MIL somehow forced or coerced or manipulated or something her way into reading. This was not sent to her. It was not addressed to her. It was not in her mailbox. It was not hers. PERIOD. I don't exactly know what happened. I just know that I didn't talk to that person who had been helping me with wedding stuff again and cut them out of the loop permanently. I'm not sure why or what the behind-the-scenes circumstances EXACTLY were, but this person obviously allowed BPD MIL to read the correspondence and it hadn't taken all that long to happen.

I'm pretty sure that it's just another attempt to make me the bad guy. She busted the boundary in the first place.

I'm pretty sure if I could have just validated something legit, then my husband would have asked me to do it and wouldn't have quit.


If I had done something wrong, I would have take responsibility. But as it is, I was suspicious of BPD MIL due to her behaviors and as such, set the boundary to be sure that no one was duped into unwittingly letting BPD MIL steer them. This person who let her see the letter or gave it to her or whatever or gave in to her (not sure exactly how it went down, but it happened) chose BPD MIL over me. That was clear.

So... .is there anything in there that I could validate? Anything legit?

I'm just checking. I feel kind of silly at this point since as I've written this all out it's become more and more abundantly clear that BPD MIL was in the wrong, and there doesn't seem to be anything legit to validate.

But I want to double check. It seems like she asked for what she got in the first place.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey TDeer:

Is it possible that I could validate my BPD MIL in some way and that could help her stop splitting? I doubt it greatly, since my therapist would have brought it up or probably someone here on the forum by this point.

I think you have forgotten. We brought up Don't invalidate/validation in your very first thread at the link below:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=303765.msg12832470#msg12832470

I'm just checking. I feel kind of silly at this point since as I've written this all out it's become more and more abundantly clear that BPD MIL was in the wrong, and there doesn't seem to be anything legit to validate.

It doesn't matter if everyone on the face of the earth disagrees with your MIL's position on something and, also, thinks that her feelings are totally irrational and child like.  Feelings are unique to an individual and might not make sense to anyone on earth.  That doesn't change the fact that a person can have certain irrational feelings.  Validation isn't about agreeing with anything, it is merely an acknowledgement that someone feels a certain way.  It isn't an apology.

The past is the past.  Best to look towards the future and just be prepared for a future situation with your MIL.  You don't have to validate (acknowledge) any future feelings of hers, just be prepared to NOT invalidate her.  Perhaps your best strategy is to just focus on things in the following order:

1.  Do not invalidate in any way.  That means not saying something to undermine MIL's feelings.
Invalidation can, also, take place by eye rolling, any invalidating expressions or body language.  Just avoid any reaction that is not supportive.

2. Use some level of validation.  It can start with the lowest level, perhaps with just a positive expression or positive body language.

[TDeer]

I guess I wasn't absorbing much about validation when I first posted. I've read about validation many times, but I guess I wasn't ready yet to really have it click for me. Thank you for pointing it out again and for your patience.


I've also watched the validation videos here on the website.

Thank you for pointing out what you previously responded/my first post. I reread everything again a few times to try to understand better. I think this is a longer process for me. I validate feelings of others sometimes naturally, especially kids, but I can't seem to get my head around this for my BPD MIL. It doesn't feel natural or normal.

I think it makes sense to move forward. Anything now would just likely upset /anger her / provoke her anyway I suppose if we brought up past issues even though it hasn't all exactly been fully resolved.

I wanted to be sure there wasn't anything I was missing in regards to my responsibility.

How might I know what needs validation? How might I know what I should validate myself? I know I'll talk to my husband too, but I'm not sure he knows validation by the technical term. He deals with her when it comes to anything that relates to conflict (we obviously learned the hard way). I have only seen her once since the wedding in a group family outing, and there was no need to validate that I noticed then or can recall.

Do BPDs ever express appreciation for a non BPDs attempts to validate?

I know I've read and heard and you've told me that validation isn't about agreeing with their feelings, but I'm still apprehensive that she'll take it as agreement with her issues. I'm afraid I won't do it right or make the situation worse by doing something that she takes as approval of something. As I type that I think you'll probably point out that I can't control what she does, but I can control my actions and try to make things better, not worse.

But I feel this validation thing is important. What's the real point? Why should I give her validation if she won't ever validate me? Do you give validation if they're splitting against you? Will it ever help? Does it matter? I know you probably already said something about this, but it's not clicking with me somehow. I know you said it's not about agreeing.

Thank you for letting me ask questions about ideas and confusions I have that I'm struggling with and not proud of. I feel guilty when I think I don't want to validate her.

I know you said that I could just refrain from non verbals that communicate negativity at first. You also said I could use positive non verbals to validate too. That sounds good because I won't be alone with her and anyone else could see my non verbals too. No one could accuse me of saying the wrong thing irbwyth the wrong time etc if I don't actually say anything.

I'm still afraid though. I'm afraid she'll find some way to twist anything I try into something bad.

I'll talk to my husband about it too. He will be able to tell me if it would help or not and when. Maybe I could ask him - if we see her together at all (? Dunno when. He goes on his own every couple of months) if he could take me aside and explain what to say if something happens.



Let's say hypothetically that the letter interception situation happened again. (I won't let it) Hypothetically, should I validate the feeling that she must have felt embarrassed and that's a hard feeling to deal with? Even though she intercepted it and that's her fault and she busted a boundary? I'm just empathizing?

I guess I need to attach all of this to a practice example or situation to get it. Like... .if she complained about how her kids left her etc... .do I validate that it's tough to be far from those you love?

It seems like a slippery slope.

[Notwendy]

How did MIL get that letter?


My mother is very wily at injecting herself into other people's business and finding out things. She also puts on a great "loving mother waify act". She also manages to get other people in her back pocket- and report to her any "activity" on my part. This includes forwarding e mails - reporting things on FB, and going behind my back to ask my kids, or siblings things. She has several relatives reporting to her. She tells them her terrible daughter (me) is keeping her grandchildren from her.

I have timed it. We don't post anything personal on social media, but if the kids, or I, post any family pics, in about 15 minutes, her enlisted ( enmeshed) relatives who are also Facebook friends ( she isn't on Facebook) have downloaded it and emailed it to her. She then uses this a proof that I don't do this- even if I intended to do it and didn't get around to sending her pictures.

There can also be email mistakes. Once I emailed a relative and the email got passed around to a relative who made derogatory comments about me on it. Then someone clicked "reply all" and it got back to me. If I send any emails to any one of my mother's enlisted relatives, I know it will get forwarded to her.

How would she know your wedding planner? She got into this somehow. Maybe a relative, friend of a friend. But the woman got into your business. There is no validating that.

It was so long ago I don't know if it is worth bringing up. Sooner or later, you would have made her angry with a boundary. If there is any reason to apologize for anything- it would be for you- not for her. If you feel you have something to say you are sorry for- then it may make you feel better to apologize,  but it may not change her mind. She might want to hold a grudge.

Validation is for feelings. We don't have to validate actions or untruths. Saying something like " I understand that you feel this way" is validating- but usually in the moment if they are upset about something.

[TDeer]

Notwendy


We learned the hard way that BPD MIL is sneaky. Either the planner sent it to her on her own accord  or BPD MIL threatened her behind the scenes. Those are my two best theories.

The mistake was not trusting my gut. My family has never had a need for a planner since we have a lot of siblings to help with special occasions. My maid of honor didn't say anything but I could tell she was disappointed when I hired a wedding coordinator.

My other mistake was not researching a day of coordinator in the same depth that I researched and vetted each vendor for my wedding. My parents were paying for everything else so I thoroughly researched and discussed and talked to my husband and sister and maid of honor and parents over a period of weeks for each vendor.

But BPD MIL wanted to pay for the planner, so at some point I said why not because I was in a new job and planning at a distance from where the wedding was to be held near my childhood home.

It was awful!

BPD MIL didn't pay for anything else besides the planner. She threw tantrums and took away the rest of the small sum she was trying to control us with. Her daughter had a planner, but that was necessary because of certain ordinances on her destination wedding that they needed help with. That woman was also experienced and I didn't realize at the time, enforced boundaries between BPD mother and daughter when needed. She was great.

Mine was terrible. She repeated garbage my BPD MIL was saying. She kept trying to steer me towards getting flowers from a supermarket. She tried to push us into a money meeting between both sets of parents when BPD MIL was talking trash about my wedding plans and that was when BPD MIL didn't want to pay for anything for what she considered was just a party for my family- the reception. BPD MIL cited etiquette, but I'm pretty sure etiquette isn't insulting people and the grooms family pays for things that she refused to pay for. She embarrassed her son. She used the nastiest tactics. She tried to turn him against me. She wound up creating tons more drama than without a wedding coordinator.

I still haven't posted reviews yet because it's clear she was inexperienced and she's not getting any good references to help her. I also don't want her to contact BPD MIL and complain so that we have to deal with that. She made negative comments about items that I really wanted. There was an item that's custom made that was a big deal to me and and told me to offer the artist half the usual price for the handmade item. This artist creates these items uniquely and by hand. You don't ask for a discount.


She had some good ideas, but overall added more grief. I suspect BPD MIL told wedding planner what to do and how to do certain things. It's too coincidental to me that BPD MIL thought the world of this inexperienced drama fueled. She also was being paid by BPD MIL. Husband just thought that if his mom was gonna pay for something then he'd take her up on the offer since I was getting stressed. In retrospect, that's just what happens and also it was worse until we got rid of the planner! There were a few good things sort of, but it wasn't worth the drama.


Wedding planner accused me of trying to slander and said she could sue me when I said I'd post accurate  reviews online if she were to be found planning with BPD MIL without my express permission and I also gave her contact info for my maid of honor in case of surprises being planned. She said all sorts of nasty things at that point. She tried to shame me based on being in the service industry. I remember crying while on the phone with her until I realized what she was doing and fired her.

[TDeer]

How do I request changing my username? Long story.

[Notwendy]

I would contact an administrator about user name.

There was no way you could have anticipated this - but your MIL - by paying for the planner took control. The planner was paid for by her- your MIL became her boss and part of the deal was probably to report to her.

With my mother - financial "gifts" are a control mechanism. We have had family events. My mother will offer to pay for part- then hijack the guest list, the menu, and also sometimes "forget" to pay me back.

Sometimes when we visited - we'd borrow her car. Big mistake- she could call at any time insisting she needs it now.

Over the years- I learned that anything material of hers = control.

I had no say in my wedding. My parents paid for it. Most of the people there were her family and friends. Some of them I hadn't seen since I was very small. Only one person from my Dads side was there and a fraction of the guests were our friends and H's family. My mother decided everything from the venue, officiant, menu. It was lovely - she does these things well- but it was her show. Why didn't I say anything? That wasn't allowed in the family. I was barely out of school- we couldn't afford that.

If my mother pays- she rules. One of my goals was to be completely financially independent of my parents as quickly as possible. Your wedding is one event - but there will be more. If you have children- there will be birthdays, graduation celebrations. You can invite your MIL but it may be wise to not accept any offers to help pay for parties.

[TDeer]

My husband knew, at the time before the drama fully hit, that he had to "play the game" to get the money. He was dependent on her (he thought) and thought "we were better off WITH the money than without" and tried to play her game his way for a while. Then I stepped in and set boundaries because neither one of us was thinking on the same page at the time. We weren't unified in the sense that we had to talk things over, find solutions together, and execute the plans together. Some parts of this we were extremely unified and some parts we weren't. We should have talked things over, but I was still used to taking care of myself and thought of things as simply taking care of my own business, versus the fact that I would have been more successful in at least having less drama between husband and I if I had brought him on board sooner - concerning his mother. He said last night that if we ever had to deal with a third party and his mother again, then we should definitely talk everything over, write something together, then have him at least talk to the third party so that he can explain how his mother is. That way, he's involved in the process and if his mother were to find out somehow, then she could be mad and him and have to get over it eventually vs. hold her grudge forever with me. I think that plan makes sense. It took a lot of growth and experience to get this far.
---> However, I still think that the letter I sent to the planner is exactly what I needed to do in order to smoke the situation out. Yes, all hell broke loose concerning BPD MIL, and we had to fire the planner, but how else was anyone going to find out or stop what was happening before it was too late? Still, it would have been nice if husband were able to find a way to smoke it out himself and BPD MIL could hate him instead and then have to get over it sooner. Whatever. I guess I'm really happy this way and proud because I found the snake in the grass and took care of it, no matter how unpleasant it was!

So last night, after I posted, I talked to my husband about a possible time in the future if validation was ever needed, then how he would communicate to me what was needed. We talked about going to another room and discussing what to say and then coming back and saying it - if we ever get on such good enough terms with BPD MIL that that would be necessary / helpful / possible. Upon reflection, it likely won't be, but I also don't want to make things worse if I can help it. Boundaries will still be held, but if there's an opportunity to help things, I'd also like to take advantage.


That said, I know now about the money games. His dad stepped in with the wedding and paid his share AND BPD MILs share, since that was the only way he knew of to change the situation. FIL doesn't try to make BPD MIL do anything differently, he just changes his own behavior, and supports us, and if he thinks he can, then he might try to talk to her. If and only if he thinks it'll help. I gotta say, although I hate the fact that she's so stubborn and mean, it makes a lot of sense what FIL does sometimes.

Thank God my parents could tell that BPD MIL (even without a diagnosis at that point) was trying to hijack things and they insisted on paying for pretty much anything so that my husband and I didn't have to be bullied that way. Thank God my parents had the money for that too! Thank God my parents went grey rock (didn't know the term then) even though they knew BPD MIL was trying to make them her enemy from afar. I have great parents. They're goofy and sometimes do weird things, very imperfect, but very good and they make it clear how much they love and support me and my husband.

Anyway, is there a way to find out for sure how things went with BPD MIL and the planner? My husband realizes that something was obviously going on, but he goes on the whole "If I can't prove it, I can't accuse my mother" way of operating. I get that, but I sometimes just mention how things went and how BPD MIL was trying to control things because I can see it clear as day, but he insists on needing evidence. He knows something was definitely off and he wants to slam the planner online with her reviews, but he's just not entirely sure what was going on.

Months ago I would have thought his mother was playing mind games with him or something, but I don't think that's the case. I think he can see clearly enough what his mother is based on the many conversations I've had with him about her, but he doesn't want to confront her without evidence of some kind because she is so good at covert behaviors. He doesn't exactly express this so well in words all the time, which makes it a little more difficult until we've talked about it enough. He says it doesn't matter at this point anyway because we have a plan for the future, if there's any events, and we're not dependent on her, etc. I understand his viewpoint. I know she was doing something. All she had to do was pretend to the planner that we were stupid and didn't know anything about weddings and say how THEY (planner + BPD MIL) were going to "help us out".

BPD MIL also was trying to keep the money away from me and explained to me how she was my hero because she was keeping it from being wasted away on the reception. She was saving me money for x, y, and z. Sorry, but I already was saving for those items that she cleverly was telling me I was too stupid to save for. She had a ridiculous reason for everything.

SOO GLAD we're not dependent on her!

[TDeer]

If my mother pays- she rules. One of my goals was to be completely financially independent of my parents as quickly as possible. Your wedding is one event - but there will be more. If you have children- there will be birthdays, graduation celebrations. You can invite your MIL but it may be wise to not accept any offers to help pay for parties.

My husband has said that BPD MIL admitted at some point that she thought she was entitled to x y z based on paying. I think since he intuitively knew this he was willing to play the game, but the game was impossible. He thought he could keep her from freaking out. Wrong. Sometimes I'm still a little frustrated that he didn't warn me about any of this.

[Notwendy]

You may never know how the wedding thing happened. My mother actually swears her accomplices to secrecy. ":)on't tell NW".  Then, she tells them anything she wants about me. It astounds me that grown adults obey her. She's even gone so far as to tell them I have some emotional problems and that they should speak to her and not me. It's a complete lie, but they believe her. Who knows what she told the wedding planner. She also says these things about me, so that if I ever did say anything about her, it would be doubted.

I have had to just limit contact with anyone in my mother's circle.