What is with the "friend" thing?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

narcissism and borderline are clinically two distinguishable mental illnesses. yes both are co-morbid. i am just puzzled by the way 2010 represents the pure BPD as a miserable person which everything "is out of her hands" and thats the way he\she is. this makes me to rethink that my ex was NPD though my therapist confirmed to me that my ex show strong traits of BPD. maybe BPD with evilness and awareness exist without comorbidity. i am just not sure and i think i will never be able to find out.

sorry if i caused any puzzle or hurt. i am just trying to understand more

actually antony_james, i would like to apologize if the tone of my last post was a bit loaded. the truth is that i am trying to express something i believe in and at times i felt the reaction i got was to make me feel as if i had misplaced anger, or that i wasn't doing enough self-examination. so, i was a bit frustrated. and i'm am trying to find the best way to express how i've processed things.

the last thing you said above raised my eyebrows. regarding 2010's posts--because they are such a good resource and people have gained so much from them. however you distilled into one sentence a small part of the way i feel he expresses things which i don't completely agree with:

"i am just puzzled by the way 2010 represents the pure BPD as a miserable person which everything "is out of her hands" and thats the way he\she is. this makes me to rethink that my ex was NPD though my therapist confirmed to me that my ex show strong traits of BPD."

well, from what i gather from reading stories here, i would have to say *most* exes of people on the leaving board would have to be NPD then. i just don't think it's necessary to trouble ourselves by trying to categorize the nastier aspects of BPD as another disorder. this is just my opinion though. here is a thread where 2010, LongGoneEx, BorisAcusio, even Skip chimed in a spirited debate. lots of insightful comments from all, worth checking out if you feel so inclined:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=223420.msg12420759#msg12420759

and BorisAcusio thank you for the Otto Kernberg quote--this does feel very true to me. thanks!

[goldylamont]

narcissism and borderline are clinically two distinguishable mental illnesses. yes both are co-morbid. i am just puzzled by the way 2010 represents the pure BPD as a miserable person which everything "is out of her hands" and thats the way he\she is. this makes me to rethink that my ex was NPD though my therapist confirmed to me that my ex show strong traits of BPD. maybe BPD with evilness and awareness exist without comorbidity. i am just not sure and i think i will never be able to find out.

sorry if i caused any puzzle or hurt. i am just trying to understand more

actually antony_james, i would like to apologize if the tone of my last post was a bit loaded. the truth is that i am trying to express something i believe in and at times i felt the reaction i got was to make me feel as if i had misplaced anger, or that i wasn't doing enough self-examination. so, i was a bit frustrated. and i'm am trying to find the best way to express how i've processed things.

the last thing you said above raised my eyebrows. regarding 2010's posts--because they are such a good resource and people have gained so much from them. however you distilled into one sentence a small part of the way i feel he expresses things which i don't completely agree with:

"i am just puzzled by the way 2010 represents the pure BPD as a miserable person which everything "is out of her hands" and thats the way he\she is. this makes me to rethink that my ex was NPD though my therapist confirmed to me that my ex show strong traits of BPD."

well, from what i gather from reading stories here, i would have to say *most* exes of people on the leaving board would have to be NPD then. i just don't think it's necessary to trouble ourselves by trying to categorize the nastier aspects of BPD as another disorder. this is just my opinion though. here is a thread where 2010, LongGoneEx, BorisAcusio, even Skip chimed in a spirited debate. lots of insightful comments from all, worth checking out if you feel so inclined:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=223420.msg12420759#msg12420759

and BorisAcusio thank you for the Otto Kernberg quote--this does feel very true to me. thanks!

[goldylamont]

regarding the original topic on friendship and pwBPD. this was something i found quite odd after we broke up. during our r/s i never sensed anything abnormal about her interaction with friends other than small things that come up between friends here and there. but honestly i was pretty shocked much later.

it took over a year and months of NC for my ex's friend/roommate (who she moved in with after moving out of my apt) to reach out to me, saying she was confused and couldn't put her finger on it... .but she just felt "... is something wrong with your X? i mean, maybe mentally?" i ended up talking for over an hour with her roommate and came to find out all sorts of abuse she endured while living with her, really cruel things that my ex would do to undermine her friend's self esteem. things i still shudder to think about... .this was the woman i lived with? in four years i never heard about any behavior this terrible, especially with platonic female friends (i still was grappling with the behavior directed at me).

then, a full 6 months or so later, yet another mutual friend (a gf/bf couple actually) came to me again, saying the same thing. they were confused, angry and at the same time felt sorry for my ex and wanted to 'help' her because they bought into her stories of victimhood. it was sad, i saw both of these women shaking physically the same as had happened to me when we broke up. so weird. i never expected her to treat friends like this, only men she dated. but it was talking to these women that inspired me to look up "is my ex girlfriend a narcissist"  on google... .and then i found out about BPD.

i'm realizing that part of the anger i am letting go of (most of which is gone) also has to do with how she treated her roommate. although it can never be proved, i strongly feel my ex (who was very attractive) used her sexuality in ways to debase and undermine her roommate's esteem. her roommate was a sweet and funny girl, but perhaps not as physically attractive. still my ex told me a few months after living with her that she thought her roommate was flirting with her new bf (my replacement). completely ludicrous, but now it all makes sense. it's just gross. and mostly now just really sad. i truly feel like so much potential is simply wasted.

[Blimblam]

goldy,

I think your frustration with the Borderline as a puppet with no awareness is valid but I think the way 2010 explains the NPD BPD differences is accurate.  What I think a lot of people confuse with "npd" comorbid is in fact HPD comorbid and/or OCD comorbid.  The OCD comorbid makes for an extremely tempermental borderline with revenge plots and smear campaigns  true terror and extreme raging.

My mom is BPD OCD HPD comorbid but she is in hermit queen witch waif all at once mode. She is extremely narcissistic... .extremely. Her rages are legendary, I would put her on the far extreme end of the spectrum.  She is aware in her lucid moments but she is out of control she is a puppet of the disorder.

The overt Narcissist is totally aware of their Bullish they are pulling they are not trying to please anyone but themselves.  It is hard to have sympathy for them.  The covert Narcissist I can have sympathy for they have an internal struggle with the disorder so they are at least dealing with aspects rather than projecting hell onto everyone constantly like the overt.

the Narcisssist is able to self reflect in a way I think is much much more difficult than the borderline.

but I don't think she is NPD comorbid, I think narcissism lays at the heart of all cluster B disorders.

[Perdita]

Probably a silly question. Is there a direct link somewhere to those 2010 posts?  Searching for it through 300+ pages takes too much time.

[Arminius]

 

The issue for me is not what she could or could not say.  It's why I was accepted less than I need from a person that I want to be my partner.  Why did ignore the   .  Why did I compromise and lose myself to the Disorder.   Why am I having difficulties letting go of someone, who never really was who I thought they were, who has forgotten me, who often treated me like crap, and who is certifiably Bat Sh-t Crazy?  

This is what we should all be asking ourselves. What is it, about US , that allows is to punish ourselves this way?

[christoff522]

Never understood why when I questioned his liaisons, everyone was a friend. And it would get back to me that he would say the same about me, even when we were together. In arguing,  I used to say, you are not my "friend". I dont sleep  with my friends. He would just choke on the word "girlfriend", and forget I love you.  Closest I got was "luv ya". Anyone have similar experience?

Yes, some lads are even her 'brothers' apparently one guy will be walking her down the aisle in place of her father.

It's all about unconditional love. They want people to love them for them. The more distant a relationship is in reality... the more freedom they have and thus the more committed they are to that relationship.

For instance, when I first met her I was at work, she used to come in with her boyfriend, I became 'friends' - actually acquaintances with them. But as far as she was concerned at this time, I was her BEST FRIEND, and within a few days she loved me. Now, I recontacted her about 5 days ago... and now we're 'friends'. The more you love her, the less she loves you. The more committed YOU are, the less she is and the more controlling and obsessive she thinks you are.

They see romantic love as conditional, especially when you seek commitment from them... suddenly they perceive what was once your perfect love as being you wanting to control and dominate them. It creates conflict and their 'love' (really infatuation) becomes resentment, but they need your contact as it validates them. Crisis develops... and so does devaluation.

The reason that they have so many friends, is because friendship is less conditional in their eyes, theres less expectation, and it can be increased and decreased with little tumult. A friend can go under the radar for a while when emotionally compromised, but a partner cannot. A friend can get counselling from another friend, without the friend in need having to really validate the feelings of the counselling friend. A friend can even have benefits, and it all be forgotten the next day. A friend can be replaced if needs be because of limited emotional attachment.

A friend can give all the benefits of a relationship with far less investment.

[Perdita]

That was a very useful post, christoff522.  Gave me some things to really think about.

[BacknthSaddle]

They see romantic love as conditional, especially when you seek commitment from them... suddenly they perceive what was once your perfect love as being you wanting to control and dominate them. It creates conflict and their 'love' (really infatuation) becomes resentment, but they need your contact as it validates them. Crisis develops... and so does devaluation.

The reason that they have so many friends, is because friendship is less conditional in their eyes, theres less expectation, and it can be increased and decreased with little tumult. A friend can go under the radar for a while when emotionally compromised, but a partner cannot. A friend can get counselling from another friend, without the friend in need having to really validate the feelings of the counselling friend. A friend can even have benefits, and it all be forgotten the next day. A friend can be replaced if needs be because of limited emotional attachment.

A friend can give all the benefits of a relationship with far less investment.

This is true, and it is also true, as has been discussed before, that they will use sex/sexuality to rope in "friends" only to push them away or even be repulsed by them once the "friend" equates the sex with emotional attachment. 

As an example: before me, my ex had a "friend" at work who was a lesbian in a committed relationship (my ex was married to a man at the time).  They talked at work, then they began texting, just about normal stuff.  Eventually the "friend" admitted to being attracted to my ex, at which point they started to text about explicit sexual matters, frequently (fyi my ex would not consider this "cheating" or "an affair".  Ultimately my friend told my ex she loved her, at which point my ex basically shut down and wouldn't talk to her anymore.  Then the "friend" basically tried to ruin her marriage by sending anonymous emails about her other affairs to her husband and his family (suspected).  Then the friend went off the radar for some time.  Now, 2 years later, they are regular old "friends" again despite everything that happened, going in groups to AC together, etc. 

She wants to be admired or loved, as Christoff says, so none of the destructive stuff from before matters. My ex dissociates from it.  Probably wouldn't even acknowledge that it occurred.  But she wants to be admired or loved on her terms, at a distance, without anything that might seem engulfing.  If she has to use sexuality to get there, so be it. But if it goes to far, to something that might become engulfing, well anything like that will lead to splitting black. 

As an aside, I have to say: sometimes I think I share these stories because I still can't come to accept that my ex has BPD.  I have to remind myself over and over of the patterns to convince myself that I didn't simply fail.  So I go through the stories again myself and share them with you all. It's so frustrating, trying to achieve radical acceptance. 

[BacknthSaddle]

So painful sometimes.

[Vexed]

I was friends with my exBPDgf for 10 years before we eventually got together.  I didn't know she was BPD and while she considered me her best friend, we only talked every 2-6 months and unless it was because she was in my town it was always because she was having a relationship crisis and needed love/attention while crying about how she was the victim. 

Now we have broken up and she had a new guy within 2 weeks but wants to stay friends.  I'm curious when I'll next hear from her, doubt it will be before the honeymoon phase ends.

[BacknthSaddle]

I was friends with my exBPDgf for 10 years before we eventually got together.  I didn't know she was BPD and while she considered me her best friend, we only talked every 2-6 months and unless it was because she was in my town it was always because she was having a relationship crisis and needed love/attention while crying about how she was the victim. 

Now we have broken up and she had a new guy within 2 weeks but wants to stay friends.  I'm curious when I'll next hear from her, doubt it will be before the honeymoon phase ends.

If it is before the honeymoon phase ends, it's safe to say the contact is not going to make you feel good about yourself.  It's painful to realize that someone who claims that you are their "best friend" really knows very little about you and has very little interest in you.  They need you around to wipe up their emotional spillage, and you'll be kept around for that purpose for as long as you're willing to participate. 

The story you describe has similarities to my own.  If I were to try to explain to my ex though that it's odd for someone's "best friend" to be someone who she never sees, almost never talks to, and only rarely text, it would only prompt an angry or sarcastic response and a run of devaluation.  Then I would feel like crap, and in a few weeks she'd just forget about it and be calling me her best friend again.

There's no winning here.