Engulfment and quiet borderline

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Anyone experienced the  consequences of engulfment with a quiet borderline?

[jo19854]

Anyone experienced the  consequences of engulfment with a quiet borderline?

[once removed]

hi jo19854,

can you be more specific? i gather your ex was a quiet borderline? in what ways do you think you might have engulfed her?

[jo19854]

 Once removed,
I took care of her for a whole year when she was sick from chemotherapy. Worked day and night in and out the house. Always had a gift for her, flowers, chocolate etc. Had to carry her up the stairs and drive to hospitals 2 to 3 times a week. Etc. After the treatment ended she left when i was at work. During treatment she withdraw and got silent. Doctors said it was from treatment but i doubt it now. Over 10 years of relationship, 2 years married.  I foud a note and i have never seen or heard from her ever. She took a plane and disappeared.

[once removed]

After the treatment ended she left when i was at work. During treatment she withdraw and got silent. Doctors said it was from treatment but i doubt it now. Over 10 years of relationship, 2 years married.  I foud a note and i have never seen or heard from her ever. She took a plane and disappeared.

this is really devastating jo19854. its a very surreal kind of grief to experience a spouse disappearing on you.

i suspect it was not as simple as her treatment causing her to withdraw and get silent. it does, possibly, sound like she may have been experiencing a profound depression (related or otherwise), and may have not had any idea what to do with herself. did she have any history of depression?

[HopinAndPrayin]

Jo, I am so sorry to hear about your struggles.  You were very giving and nurturing with your wife at a time when she needed it most.  I'm so sorry her dysregulation led you to where you are.

I can share my experience with my hermit / waif stbxhBPD and engulfment, but I don't know how helpful it will be.  Mine also had ASPD and NPD traits if not the outright PDs, along with psychotic PTSD (not being dramatic, it's just the diagnosis).

With my ex, shortly before we were married, I asked him what he thought it meant to be a husband.  He said it was to love his wife.  When she was happy, he was happy, when she was sad, he was sad.  I saw the red flag of codependency and lack of boundaries between self and others.  Knowing we both came from alcoholic families, I actually discussed this with him and said, look, I get differentiation from your FOO is tough.  I spent many years in therapy in my early twenties trying to deal with that because I as so heavily punished for my differentiation, but I got approval and validation outside the home, which made it less damaging in the long run.  I don't think you had that, but it's ok for us to be different and to have different values.  Not only is it ok, it's expected!  Then I shared with him some of my books from Al Anon and ACoA and asked him to read up on it because I was a whole and separate human being and I wanted to be married to another whole and separate human being.  It was our differences that we would have to negotiate and I liked those differences.  I used to talk about it, before the chaos, as two people from sociologically different tribes coming together and that would require negotiation and setting up our own culture of our choosing as a now married unit.  I was so completely unaware of what was actually underlying.

About 2 weeks into the marriage, I asked him what he wanted to do that weekend.  He said he was fine with whatever I wanted to do.  I broached the subject supportively, but directly and said, hey, look, I want to negotiate this with you.  It's not a relationship if it's one sided.  I know what I would like to do, but I'd like to hear what you want to do.  We can trade off.  I'm concerned if we don't, you will grow to resent me.  I grew up in a family with an NPD alcoholic father just like you.  We only ever did what he wanted and he was really controlling.  I don't ever want to be in a position where I am dictating for others what we do or controlling the situation, so we're going to have to negotiate and both bring our full selves to this marriage.  I respect you and your differences and we will do whatever you want this weekend.  It doesn't seem like you have something right off the bat that you want to do, so how about you think about it and we can discuss again later this evening?  He came back and said, you said last week you wanted to do X, let's do that.  I countered again with, how much I appreciated that he wanted to show flexibility but I really wanted him to think about what he wanted to do.  We were already married at that point, but going forward, I see the entire conversation as a brilliantly sparkly red flag.  I saw it as a red flag then too, but marriage and that commitment before God really does mean something to me, so it meant working through it together as a married couple.

Now, my T says that those first few initial conversations were very likely the beginning of the end.  These were normal and healthy conversations to have, but they would have hit on his core ego wound and his lack of sense of self and would have produced narcissistic injury.  I could see the anger and resentment in his eyes when I refused to just say what I wanted to do.  He responded almost as though I had created it as a game where he was supposed to read my mind and guess what I wanted without our discussing it (very typical child of NPD / alcoholic issues).  

His father is entirely enmeshed with both him and his sister.  So much so that it's emotional incest.  After his mother passed, his father would tell both my ex and his sister about dates he went on, how far he got with his conquests sexually, and even had my ex drive him on a long distance booty call from NC to SC then bragged about the exploits on the way back.  Whenever my ex spoke with his father, his father would invalidate him, erode his memories of prior conversations that I had been a witness to and knew what my ex was saying was accurate and true.  At the end my ex would say, well, maybe it did happen the way he said.  I was furious at my FIL for being such a manipulative ass and for what it was doing to my ex, but I just tried to encourage my ex to work on himself so he could stand up for himself, his beliefs, and his memories.  Those interactions with his father were vicious in how it eroded his sense of identity and reality.

What I found with my engulfed and quiet borderline over the next 5 years was that underneath it all, he was seething with unexpressed rage, jealousy, ego injuries, and frankly silently screaming boredom.  He would break things and try to pick fights so that I would treat him poorly.  When I didn't, he would actually say - Why won't you throw me out?  Why would you still love me when I did X, Y, and Z and I know how much you hate that.  (Well, I'm also the daughter of an alcoholic so I put some bait out there when I saw you were doing damage, hid what was really important to me and watched what you did.  I'm also practicing DBT skills and not validating or reacting to the invalid.)  Instead I asked him if he would like to talk about why he was intentionally targeting things he knew would be painful to me.  His response was to sulk.  Well, first it was to invalidate what I had said - it wasn't intentional, he wasn't trying to do X.  Then there was grand sulking.  I can't tell you the number of pictures I have of him sitting on the floor, arms akimbo with his lower lip out.  He never knew I took the photos, but I often over time felt like I couldn't trust my own memories from the invalidation I received.  

In subsequent visits with psychiatrists, it came out he needed a highly structured environment (which is why the Army had appealed to him) and he experienced so much depression and suicidal ideation that it was alarming.  He never expressed those things to me.  There was almost no expression whatsoever other than anger, vitriol, and paranoia.

Over the last 3 years, we had him evaluated by a neurologist who found he had mild global cerebral atrophy.  Because of my ex's extreme alcohol abuse, his high school wrestling, his family history of EFAD (early-onset familial alzheimer's disease), we never were able to determine the cause.  But he also had very long lapses of time that he would be unable to account for.  Could be PTSD, could be trauma and beyond PTSD, could be Dissociative Identity Disorder.  We were at the point of antipsychotics, residential care, and a conservatorship when he ran out in February of this year.  We were also going to have him evaluated for DID, which could have caused the delay in DBT kicking in (it's supposed to start healing within the first 12 months, but we were 24-30 months in without relief).  He would just sit by himself in a different part of the house for hours or fly into rages.  Any trips out were sabotaged.  There was no interacting with him without an explosion.  I knew him for 20 years.  We were high school sweethearts.  Over 20 years of interacting by phone, Skype, in-person on long weekends and it turns out I never really knew him.  He was mirroring me... .to survive his childhood trauma.  If what he was acting out with me is what he experienced as a child, I can actually understand how he got to where he is.  That said, it was incredibly abusive of me, whether it was intentional or not.  So when he ran this last time, I let the door swing shut and changed the locks.  Been NC except two times to work out details of divorce ever since.

Don't know if that will help or not.  I found this article when it first happened explained my ex in a way I could never have seen him:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/my-definition-love-i-have-borderline-personality-disorder-0

[jo19854]

Once removed, indeed i am stuck in grief. 3 1/2 years gone and i still  shake, cry and anxiety attacks. She was certainly depressed, recovering alcoholic, abandonment issues, abuse etc. She never raged, once and a while a sudden hurtful statement out of nowhere. I did all i could do. So i guess she felt engulfed. Its a difficult and hard road we traveled. And then Poof. In my profile is the whole situation. Its rather long but it describes everything. I believe now she is a quiet borderline and when every hurdle was taken she left. I was too close.

[valet]

Once removed, indeed i am stuck in grief. 3 1/2 years gone and i still  shake, cry and anxiety attacks. She was certainly depressed, recovering alcoholic, abandonment issues, abuse etc. She never raged, once and a while a sudden hurtful statement out of nowhere. I did all i could do. So i guess she felt engulfed. Its a difficult and hard road we traveled. And then Poof. In my profile is the whole situation. Its rather long but it describes everything. I believe now she is a quiet borderline and when every hurdle was taken she left. I was too close.

Hey Jo, I understand where you're coming from. I think that there is a lot of validity to your engulfment theory.

It's been 3 1/2 years. Have you tried talking to a therapist?

[jo19854]

It's been 3 1/2 years. Have you tried talking to a therapist?

Valet,
I went to regular therapist, no result
Changed therapist, he had no clue about a relationship with a PD person and the magnetude of her leaving.
I tried mindfulness, didnt work either.
I was already for years in Alanon, that was the same as taking an aspirin when you have cancer, didnt work at all.

Had treatment for how to deal with "Missing persons or sudden endings by suicide", it took my self blame away.
Now i see one of the best in this country, he is a proffessor and is specialised in traumatic loss and complicated grief". That seems to help a bit. He said it would take another 6 months from now before he can start working on the grieving part, first he wants to know me and the whole situation better. Also he wants me to learn to talk about my marriage without reliving it.

[jo19854]

HopinandPrayin, Thanks for your the effort you put in your reply, i recognise a lot in it. I highlighted some parts and added my experiences

With my ex, shortly before we were married, I asked him what he thought it meant to be a husband.  He said it was to love his wife. ... .
When i asked her to marry me after 8 years relationship she replied she wanted to marry but never wanted to go through a divorce again. I was flabbergasted and replied "But i will never leave you, we went through so much together, it would have happened already if that was the case.'" Then she said i was controlling. I was completely caught by surprise. I never told her what to do, Always asked what she wanted or if she had plans or ideas. Afterwards i missed the red flag i guess. It was her way of saying NO i guess. After the marriage she told her fellow members of AA how happy she was and proud of herself.

Knowing we both came from alcoholic families,... .
Her father was a Korean war veteran, alcoholic and drank himself to death. He abandoned the family when she was young. She was raped at age 8. She told me she couldnt remember anything before age 10. She used drugs in the past, cocaïne and heroin and a mix. She relapsed on alcohol around 2008. She told me once she was wrongly diagnosed borderline at age 25.

Then I shared with him some of my books from Al Anon and ACoA and asked him to read up on it because I was a whole and separate human being and I wanted to be married to another whole and separate human being. ... .I was so completely unaware of what was actually underlying.
I was also unaware of the magnitude of her addiction. I went to Alanon and open AA meeting. I educated myself. I stopped looking for bottles, never discussed my fears. Encouraged her to go to AA and drove to meetings every week several times to support her (she had no license in my country) I didnt enable her, nor have ever blamed her for her behaviour.[/b]

About 2 weeks into the marriage, I asked him what he wanted to do that weekend.  He said he was fine with whatever I wanted to do.  ... .
This is so what i experienced. She never had ideas of her own. If i suggested something it was always ok. 3 days before she vanished we went to an AA convention. I had asked her first what she wanted to do. It was just after the chemotreatment ended and i wanted a relaxing weekend. She said "whatever you want". I said i wanted her ideas, than she said "The convention is ok". We walked hand in hand and had a good weekend, but she was so silent and withdrawn from time to time. So afterwards i believe it didnt matter anymore. I also believe she was severly depressed. When we arrived at home she thanked me for the nice weekend.

His father is entirely enmeshed with both him and his sister.  So much so that it's emotional incest... .
Her mother is one of the most abusive people i have ever met in my life and i am 59+. I met her only 3 times and every time my wife wanted to make it up with her she was kicked in the gutter. Statements like "You ruined my life Always", "I got cancer because of you". I know my wife suffered tremendously by this. Her older daughters are the same. They never called how she was doing. No cards. But when they got pregnant they started to say they love her and miss her. Now ive heard she is watching the grandchildren.

What I found with my engulfed and quiet borderline over the next 5 years was that underneath it all, he was seething with unexpressed rage, jealousy, ego injuries, and frankly silently screaming boredom.  He would break things and try to pick fights so that I would treat him poorly.
I also believe she was quiet borderline, but i our case, we never had a fight. Only a few momentsthat i got a hatefull remark out of nowhere. Like when i said i loved her more every day she said "pfffff... .". there was no arguing before. Just out of the blue it came.

Over the last 3 years, we had him evaluated by a neurologist who found he had mild global cerebral atrophy.  Because of my ex's extreme alcohol abuse, ... .Could be PTSD, could be trauma and beyond PTSD, could be Dissociative Identity Disorder... .
I believe there is a lot wrong with her. She mentioned PTSD herself. My doctor tolde me it is likely hat she has permanent brain damage from drug and alcohol abuse in the past and that the chemotreatment damaged her for good.

... .If what he was acting out with me is what he experienced as a child, I can actually understand how he got to where he is.  
Me too, but i have no clue how she is able to run away and leave everything behind like it never meant anything. In her goodbey note she wrote "Thank you for everything, you will see this is the best way, and the only way for me"

It's so hard to accept i will never see her again. Everything i write and think is based on assumptions . I have to recreate a person but one i never recognised before she left.  I miss her smile and precense every day.

[HopinAndPrayin]

Jo, your posts reminded me of something I read, somewhere (you lose track after a while).  I believe it was that hermit and waif borderlines are typically the result of a queen or witch BPD parents. 

I believe the shorthand was:
- Queen (Narcissistic Personality Disorder-like traits with BPD)
- Witch (Anti-Social Personality Disorder-like traits, especially sadism, with BPD)
- Hermit (Avoidant Personality Disorder-like traits and / or Paranoid Personality Disorder with BPD)
- Waif (Dependent Personality Disorder-like traits with BPD)

Because of the co-morbidity (and commonality) of Cluster B personalities, it takes a trained and experienced professional to capture the traits vs. PDs.

There are a good number of overlapping traits with queen / witch and those with heavy substance abuse issues.  To survive in those households, reality had to be set aside.  It's devastating.

Hope you're doing something wonderful for yourself.  Sounds like you've been through the ringer.  I was reading on this great site about the parasympathetic nervous system getting "stuck" in trauma.  If it's longer than a few months and you aren't experiencing relief, you may be stuck in trauma.  There's a book called The Body Keeps Score that's really helpful in understanding yourself and having self-compassion for the struggle you are in.  There were also two separate articles I found particularly helpful.  I'll see if I can track them down again.  The first said you have to get out of the trauma response first, then you can process the grief of loss.  The other was how to get out of the trauma response - exercise, rest, no alcohol or drugs,

[HopinAndPrayin]

Found it!  It was still open on my phone.  This particular one helped me so, so much:  https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/coping-with-emotional-and-psychological-trauma.htm

[jo19854]

H&P, indeed my T says stuck in trauma, no acceptance. He is a specialist on Complicated Grief. We are working on it. I hope one day this pain goes away. I just cant get it, how can a human being do this to another.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi jo19854,

I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going through.  I think that anyone in your position would have difficulty grasping this, and am so very glad to hear that you have a good therapist who is specialised enough to help you to recover.  I wish you every success with this. 

Just to say that I agree with  HopinAnPrayin on the article she has shared.  It is very good and covers a lot of very helpful suggestions on coping strategies.  Outside of your therapy, have you found anything that helps you to cope?

Love and light x

[jo19854]

HQ,

To be honest, no.
I do work on the house, keep it in shape.
Started running again but now my knee gives me trouble so i had to stop.

The ruminating is unwanted and it forces itself up to me. Also the nightmares, every week a few times.
Specially the same one where i see her walking in an unknown enviroment and try to ask WHY?, but then in my dream my voice is gone and she just walks away.
So when i wake up i shake and try to do something and go to work, pushing it away.

In short, i try to stay busy but she's in my mind always. It drives me crazy.
I know i have to do it myself, but i am damaged from her sudden desertion and i guess i will never hear from her again. In her goodbey note she wrote i could email her but i never got any reply, because of that you dont know when you hear anything or if you wont. So the last years are hell until this day.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Hi jo,

I really feel for you and wonder if there is a way you could frame this differently that might help a little.  Something you said in your last post stuck with me.

I just cant get it, how can a human being do this to another.

That's a natural question, and one we have all asked at some point I'm sure.  I believe you posted about the note she left, which (forgive my own translation of the words) I understood as saying she did this as it was the only way (it could be my assumption that this implies for both of you?)  Please do correct me if I've misunderstood that. 

However, if this is what she eluded to, then perhaps she didn't do this TO you, but FOR you. 

Perhaps she was aware of more than you know.  Perhaps if she stayed there would have been things that could have been damaging to you that she was attempting to save you from.  Factors that you cannot know but that she believed made such a drastic and sudden action necessary to prevent these from happening. 

IF that were the case, that say she was saving you from herself, from her behaviour for example, then in doing so would that not suggest that in her own way she had your best interests at heart?  And if that were right, would your wife not want you to move on and be happy in your life?  I'm not sure there is a person on earth who would knowingly and willingly inflict upon another the years of suffering you have been enduring.  It is doubtful that this was ever her plan. 

Everything I've written here may be a complete bunch of nonsense if I've completely mistranslated that final message.  However, my point is, that it is possible that your wife going full NC was in fact her way of trying to save you from pain.  In lucid moments, my ex would plead with me to save myself from him, to run, get as far away from him as possible, leave him and never look back.  He KNEW what was coming. 

Love and light x       

[jo19854]

  I'm not sure there is a person on earth who would knowingly and willingly inflict upon another the years of suffering you have been enduring.  It is doubtful that this was ever her plan. 

She received a message from her ex husband (the one before me) that i only wanted to know why she left to find peace and that i suffered extremely because of not hearing anything about WHY and what i possibly had done wrong.  Also that i didnt know what to do with her belongings and the legal stuff. It was  more than 2 years after she left. She replied she wouldnt contact me. Then he said "this guy saved your life". She then replied i was a dramaqueen. When he told her i wanted to come over to USA she was looking afraid.
I did fly over 3 months later and she didnt show up on the place where i was staying.

Her note said "You will see this is the best way and the only way for me". But also "you can email me"and "i will give you an adress when i have one". But she never replied and i never got the adress.

Before i picked her up in 2010(while she was abandoned by her older daughters and she stayed in a motel, locking herself up and drinking wodka) she once called me and said "Run away as fast as you can because i will ruin your life", but she was drinking so heavily at the time. She also said she "never loved a man like me before in her whole life"
I spoke to her therapist in 2009 who told me this woman would destroy me completely but for privacy reasons he couldnt say more.

I did pick her up, got her in a nursing home for 5 months and she recovered. It went so well that we got married in 2012. In 2013 she had that horrible chemo. While i took care of everything (even carrying her up the stairs and preparing chemoshots and tuckin her in when she layed on the bed before sleep) it seemed she started to resent me in a way. But the days before she left she was kind and i believed (like the doctors had told me) it was iat the time only a side effect from the chemo.

Its a dangerous path for me to think she had my best interest at heart, it would confirm to me that she is indeed that beautiful person i always believed she was. Thats why i gave all i had. Thats why i still miss her. Thats why i still suffer because like you wrote, who would like to hurt someone delibarately for many years.

She now is babysitting, lives at one of the daughters place and i do believe shes just used. Her depression, ptsd, addiction and her homesickness was used as emotional blackmale.

So, in short, your thought has come up in my mind. But i do believe she totally hates me by now, although i dont know why.

Thanks HP for your warm response, i really appreciate it.




 

[jo19854]

Thanks HP for your warm response, i really appreciate it.
 

Of course HP responded very kind, but this reply was because of the post from HQ. So... .HQ 

[Harley Quinn]

Oh Jo,

I am so sorry if I picked at a healing wound for you.  I'm deeply saddened to hear of the response that you got when her ex husband reached out to her.  Also that she failed to turn up when you travelled over to the USA.  It's a little disturbing to hear that a therapist made such a strong statement to you as well.  It really is no wonder that you feel as you do and I sincerely hope that your current therapist is equipped to help you move through this very difficult experience in a healthy and compassionate way.  The fact that he wishes to take things slowly is encouraging as there is a lot for you to address. 

Just out of interest, how are you able to know what she is doing at present?  Is this through mutual contacts?  Apologies if I missed this in your post.

Love and light x