New to the forum — Wife's rages have taken a toll on marriage and my soul

[Stolen]

Walkinthepark,

You mention reading "Eggshells",  wondering if you have read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann Lawson.  I found this book explained not just my situation, but the prior two generations in xW's FOO. 

Some passages were so familiar it curled my toes.

Good luck. 

[Cat Familiar]

My "recovery" from being married to a partner with BPD (actually two marriages, as my previous partner was BPD/NPD/ASPD--so this one looks like BPD-lite), now finds me being very pragmatic, very much in control of my emotional expression, letting go of the romantic fantasy that entrapped me at the beginning, and looking out for myself and how to make the most out of this relationship.

At times, I feel like I'm becoming a narcissist--feeling exploitative about this relationship, as being with him there is much to be gained financially. This shocks me because I fell head over heels for this guy, but now I'm sizing up this marriage as beneficial economically to me and at times, little more.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@Stolen - I consider "Understanding the Borderline Mother" to be an advanced reader book.  It is just about the industry standard, and source I believe, when we talk about "Waif, Witch, Queen, Hermit" type BPD.  It help with my compassion too.  My wife got the way she is for a reason, and history.  The book was hopeful in its spirit - challenging the readers to finally break the generational cycle of BPD imprinting.  I also found pages that describe me - vividly so.  Have your feet on the ground before you read it.

@Cat - Thanks for your comments, as always.  You're a straight shooter, and have really gotten a hold of your (our collective) situations.  I'm sort of another version of you.  I have cut emotional ties to my wife.  I have figured out how to live without her in every way.  And yet, we share a religion, five kids, a mortgage, and mailing address (and a few bank accounts).  I am presently married for financial and logistical reasons.  I actually catch myself thinking of marriage as a contract to make two adults legally responsible for some kids, and nothing more.   I guess I am exploiting it too.  I would maybe feel bad if I was getting sex, or something emotionally one-sided from it, but it's business otherwise.  I don't like looking at myself like that.  I'm screaming inside to be free and finally honest, but trapped by reality.

[formflier]

At times, I feel like I'm becoming a narcissist--feeling exploitative about this relationship, as being with him there is much to be gained financially.  

I feel the same way... .about me.  I certainly had much to learn about self care when I got here... .largely I've improved/fixed that.  

I sometimes wonder if I go to far in "doing things for me" and "exploiting" my knowledge of relationship dynamics.  Usually when I start thinking about "I deserve xyz... ." and especially now that I have no compunctions about "being private".


FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think when we're not used to giving ourselves "self care" it can seem like we're being overly self focused.

As a child I was constantly getting the don't be selfish message from my BPD mother, who probably thought I was a terrible burden because I was a sickly kid. I remember feeling so shamed when I asked her to play a game with me when I was ill.

So I guess I've been tuned into fearing being selfish and not wanting to ask for anything for myself.

Now I try to take care of my own needs as much as possible without intruding upon my husband, but I'm becoming more willing to use the credit card he gave me for any purchases I might make at the hardware store.

It's ironic that I have hesitation or guilt about using his money when he's so willing to drop several thousands of dollars on a watch whenever he feels like it. I'm constantly noticing him wearing watches I've never seen before. I guess he's gotten tired of buying camera gear and watches are his new thing.

[formflier]

 
It's interesting how people figure out "their thing"

I haven't worn watches in years.  Yet when I want to work on a trailer, especially a horse trailer.  There is always money in the budget.

FF

[walkinthepark247]

Walkinthepark,

You mention reading "Eggshells",  wondering if you have read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann Lawson.  I found this book explained not just my situation, but the prior two generations in xW's FOO. 

Some passages were so familiar it curled my toes.

Good luck. 

No, I haven't. I will take a look. 

[Enabler]

You guys are soo soo lucky. You actually get to have the argument. You get to walk away and leave your spouse having an argument with themselves. You'd better pray they don't become passive aggressive and just sit their seething like a viper. What I would give to be hit, get a black eye, even be hospitalised... .For my wife, if it's not vocal of physical, it doesn't count as anger.   

[SamwizeGamgee]

Enabler - I read your post a couple of times trying to remember when I wrote it, thinking it was my own post
I remember just wishing she'd hit me, scream, one more good rage and so forth.  Let's get it in the open.  Plus that would be tangible signs that it is time to end it.   Instead I live with a walking raw nerve who reads minds, jumps to conclusions, and interprets whatever meaning she wants.  And then brews it inside.
Stonewalling, projection, cold hostility and covert aggression.  Now my D16 is following moms footsteps.
Ugh

[Stolen]

For my wife, if it's not vocal of physical, it doesn't count as anger.   

A bit off-topic, but this comment really brought me back.  One of xW's last rants before she moved out, ramping as usual to the black-eyed, vein-popping rage, she fixed me in her gaze and told me "For 25 years I have not been allowed to be mad!" 

Silly me, I thought the primary problem in our relationship was her recurring anger and rage. 

Oh well, I guess we all have our own perspectives... .

[Enabler]

Stolen, I would love vein popping anger, you can do something with that, you can record it, there's hope that it slips out in public and your mutual friends might catch a glimpse into your world. The irony is that for my uBPDw she has a perfect example to observe her own behaviour... .my MIL. We can discuss her mothers inappropriate behaviours till we're blue in the face, yet she just can't see the similarities. Like you, my uBPDw believes that she's been verbally and emotionally abused by me for our entire 16yr marriage. Who's to know if this is projection or whether or not she is so in the dark about her own behaviours she only sees the reaction from me towards her in response. For them the ground isn't shaking that's their normal.

[formflier]

Hey Enabler,

Quick hijack to this thread.  I don't think I know your story yet.

I'm curious how you react to passive aggressive "seething" from your wife? 

Pragmatism is critical in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Typcially ST (silent treatment) allows the non to go on about their day in "relative" ease (compared to someone following around the house yelling... .or worse).

Just curious... .glad you found us.


FF

[Stolen]

The irony is that for my uBPDw she has a perfect example to observe her own behaviour... .my MIL. We can discuss her mothers inappropriate behaviours till we're blue in the face, yet she just can't see the similarities.

Another comment that brought me right back... .    xMIL was/is the epitome of the Queen/Witch, xW as well as her siblings all spoke to suicidal ideation during their childhood.
For the entirety of our r/s, xW remained pathetically enmeshed with her abusive mother, she just could not escape the well laid FOG.  She would implore me after countless contacts with her mother "If I ever become like her, just take me out in the backyard and kill me".  And then for decades would tell others, "Thank God for Stolen, otherwise I'd wind up like the rest of my family".

I would happily skip off down the road, considering this the best work of my life. 

And then - the switch was clicked, and life went upside down so rapidly I suspected a brain tumor. 

How do they not see it?  The recurring pattern?  The damage that was done to them now being done to their own children?  How can they not see it?

What a destructive and maddening disorder.

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband was very extreme on the BPD scale: suicide threats, physical and verbal abuse, property damage, infidelity, financial irresponsibility, drug use.

I got out of that relationship 20 years ago and I've never regretted it for a minute. My only regrets were that I stayed way too long.

Recently I got an update phone call from my ex-nephew. I had always liked him for his sunny disposition and optimism. He and my ex-mother-in-law were the only two seemingly normal members of that family. He wanted to let me know that she had passed away and he gave me updates on all the other family members.

There was a lot of mental illness in that family that expressed itself in various ways:

Ex's father had died of alcoholism when ex was a boy. He had been jailed many times for fighting, couldn't keep a job, took nudie photos of random women--which his wife (my mother-in-law) found and burned after he showed my ex when my ex was a small child

Ex's oldest sister can't keep a job. She threatened a boyfriend with a gun. Her sister had to call the cops on her recently when she was assaulting her.

Ex's other sister (the assaultee) is a serious hoarder--like ones you see on TV

Ex's nephew is financially irresponsible and sexually irresponsible.

Ex's niece is a hermit.

Ex's other nephew was sexually irresponsible, instigated fights and ultimately died of AIDS.




The psychologist I see doesn't want to distinguish between the various personality disorders because she sees tremendous overlap between them. They certainly do seem to run in families, as so many members here have noticed.

[Enabler]

I'm curious how you react to passive aggressive "seething" from your wife? 

Hey Formflier... .well I think up till now I have handled the silent treatment very very very badly. I don't want to be thought of by uBPDw in a negative way, I'm a bit of a classic nice boy, I want to do nice things for people and I want people to do nice things for me and I want people to think that I'm a nice person... .so, when I can't tally my behaviour with a negative behaviour from uBPDw I want to establish the cause and return the situation back to me being perceived as nice. There's likely a thousand reasons for this but I'll summarise a few:
- I think the world is full of nice people who do nice things for other people, if I am nice to them they will be nice back
- When uBPDw is angry with me, bad things happen... .this comes from 20yrs experience of cause and effect
- Experience tells me that rather than the usual situation of leaving a person to get over themselves and they will come to a rational conclusion, leaving situations results in a spiral of anger that gets more extreme rather than less. A compunction to nip it in the bud.
- Pride
- It's disruptive to being able to get stuff done even from the perspective of what you have for dinner. If I were to respect her ignoring me and just cooked a dinner of my choice... .then I'm labelled controlling!

So... .I can tolerate the silent treatment for a bit (couple of days) before asking "have I done something wrong? are you in a mood with me? What has changed?" which is typically met with denial. Then, and this typically takes several weeks I get angry and usually rant for 5 minutes about how it's cruel to be ignored for so long and we need to sort "this" out... .and then I'm called abusive. uBPDw perceives herself as very much the victim (permanently, and has been victimised since birth, even though her actual level of abuse is significant less than some horror stories (BPD mum essentially)). It feels as though she manufactures situations which reinforce her feeling of being a victim, even though she herself generated the situation in the first place. It's like deliberately crashing your car into a wall then crying that your car is smashed up.

Being aware of my response to these behaviours is one thing, not responding or being emotionally hurt by them is another. I still very much love and care for my wife and want her to love and care for me back.

[formflier]

Got it... .very much like I used to be... and sometimes still am.

Many times us "nons" get thoughts in our heads which we need to "flip" to get to a healthier place.  Even if our current thoughts aren't "on the face of it" bad... .we can usually agree (see) that they are not working.

So... .do something different.

 then I'm labelled controlling!
 

Controlling is not bad... .

One of the most powerful things you can do with an upset person is to agree with them... .

"Yes I am controlling of the food I eat."  end... done... .go enjoy your meal.


Few other things.

Stop asking "what is wrong".  More open ended... .

"Anything on your mind?  I've got 10 minutes free time to talk... "

I'll hush for now.

Thoughts?

FF

[Enabler]

FF, I agree in theory however, uBPDw has friends who deem (although doubtfully they have ever experienced) that type of "Controlling" as "Coercive Control"... .thus abuse. Telling children off is also abuse apparently. I am neither FWIW and I cannot stress the strongly enough. Someone who's a coercive control does not "allow" their wife to go out several times a week to get smashed up in the local pub with her male "friend" in the village. It's somewhat a perfect chess move of anything you say and do is abusive and no one can prove otherwise and lets be honest, the hot blonde is far far more believable than the slightly overweight bald bloke! Standing up for myself is just fuel on the fire at the moment and I need the fire to recede so I can start the uphill battle to rebuild with the tools.

[formflier]

  uBPDw has friends who deem

Ummm... .so what?

How do the beliefs of her friends influence your decision(s)?


FF

[Enabler]

At the moment my decision is to stand and not make things worse with the hope that eventually I can help make things better or learn to improve the quality of both of our lives and the lives of our 3 wonderful (emotionally sensitive) children. The "others" are not determining my decision but encouraging a person whom already seeks a source of her unhappiness and perma victimhood. So, my actions of setting rules (they're not really boundaries) and reacting to rein in inappropriate behaviour is only feeding the "others" and uBPDw the "evidence" (albeit one sided) they need to further push her towards what I believe to be a ruinous decision to split up our family. I further cannot see how uBPDw "freeing herself from the bondage of being under my oppressive regime" as being the solution to her life happiness... .Actually I see it as likely to be used as an reason for her life long misery, me being the cause leaving her with 3 kids to raise on her own. This perpetuating her concrete shoes in the victim spot. I have to consider other people's opinions even if I believe them to be complete codswallop as they influence outcomes... .And yes that does mean I am painting a rainbow to a pot of doom, but hey, 20yrs of experience tells me this is how it's likely to play out.

[Lucky Jim]

Enabler: What would you like to see happen?  I can't tell from your post.  LJ

[Enabler]

I would like my wife to stop dysregulation, stop painting me black, I would like her to continue working with the therapist she has in the hope that the therapists sees inconsistencies and helps her towards a self enlightenment moment, I would like to keep daily interaction with my children and I would like to stay married to my wife, help her work through her issues whilst working trough my own which have resulted from te years of torture.

To do this I plan on being the man she was originally attracted to, the man I am rather the man I have become. Kind, loving, caring, compassionate, a chaos reducer, organised, solution orientated, problem solver but maybe less rescuer. I was the ying to her yang, the thing she needed to balance her own chaos (which I might add is tough to sustain in the face of so much chaos and hurt gene where I am now). Although this reversion to type is not garanteed to make any changes to her behaviours at least I will be me plus her behaviours may become more noticeable to her since she will have less of an ability to project away her own pain.

But accept that only my own side of the decision tree is determinable by me. Ultimately the outcome is determined by her, which I accept. I had my own radical acceptance that I will never have what we had at the beginning of our relationship again. That was an illusion

[SamwizeGamgee]

Enabler, your earlier posts sound angry.  Are you looking for a fair fight with your wife when you want her to see something as you do? 
Are you looking for a facet of this conflict that you can fight and win - without the judgements of others?
Are you looking to blow off steam and vent here?  Because that's okay too, up to a point.

I was going crazy dealing with my wife's behavior.  She was more acting-in, whereas yours seems more acting-out, but, it was wrong and hurtful nonetheless.  I went through a lot of internal hostility, and I felt a lot of anger too.  I had to process and realize the ending of my imaginary marriage that was good and worthwhile.  I now see some good, but, I take it with the bad too.  My eyes have been opened.  I have no more desire or real ability to fight with my wife.  Her reality is ever changing.  It doesn't matter if I win an argument, or fight, or get my way.  It would be like bottling the wind.  Empty and of no value. 

Maybe spend some time taking an inventory of your feelings and looking at the direction you want to take in your life.  We often have more peace when we attempt to control the thing we can control - meaning ourselves alone.

The opportunity to have a balanced, healthy, and full marriage to your current wife is not going to be realized.  We cannot bend nature, or her core personality.

[flourdust]

I hear you, Enabler. You don't like what this marriage has turned you into, and you want to try to be who you remember being when you were happy. You hope that by leading the way, your wife will also revert to an earlier self.

Unfortunately ... .it's really hard to just rewind the clock. I don't think I've ever seen this be successful. You are right that you can only change yourself, but there are reasons that you aren't the person you used to be, and those reasons won't go away if you just try to act as if they no longer apply.

Have you taken a look at any of the lessons and resources here? Quite a few of them address techniques you can use to try to improve your relationship while staying fully aware that a relationship with a dysregulated person with BPD isn't going to be normal in many ways. This may be a more productive path than trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle.

[Enabler]

SamwizeGamgee - I don't WANT any fights with my wife, I want peace and harmony and her to think nice things about me... .actually scratch that... .I don't want her to think bad things about me. I think I mentioned before that I care about the bad thoughts because bad thoughts = acting out = more bad thoughts about me because "I made her" = more acting out. Negative thoughts and rumination are the start of the emotional cascade which is self feeding. I am not angry, I'm frustrated about my helplessness to iron out negative thoughts and emotions which ultimately lead to her further unhappiness, my own life disruption and loss of a loving caring companion... .albeit the illusion of one. I do not see a diagnosis of BPD (or not) as a reason to walk away from my marriage, I would not divorce her if she was diagnosed with Alzheimers nor would I even consider life paths which did not include being married. If she chooses this herself that is up to her. I very much liked your comment re bottling the wind... .that makes a lot of sense to me and encapsulates the futile nature of "winning" in these types of relationships.

Flourdust - I have no plans to attempt to rewind the clock, however I have to accept that I have turned into a man that is neither the man I would like to be nor a man that meets the emotional needs of my wife. I have in essence caught flees. The man I would like to be is the man I was, with the addition of knowledge and understanding of myself and experience of the last 20 years (good and bad) plus the useful tools to manage a situation I now know that I am in... .so in essence a Me++ version. The genie is out and having a party. 


The irony is that I can see in this chain how I am desperate to be understood. It's so easy to hook me in, wound me and my response is to try and further clarify my feelings and the situation. ":)oes everyone understand what I meant... .anyone got any further questions... .hands up if you're confused... .Are we all on the same page?" Is this a function of my experience over the last 20yrs... .not sure... .I do know that the preservation of historical memory is important in my r/s with uBPDw as it's constantly referred to and weaponised by her and constantly warped by her changing emotional landscape.

[formflier]

I see a lot of me, especially what used to be me in your posts.

I've been focused on the process of change (for me) for a couple years, before that I was focused on changing my wife for "couple years" (right after I read SWOE)

Much of this stuff is "counter-intuitive".  My wife is clearly "the problem" (paranoia mainly) yet my relationship has "calmed" much more after I focused on me.

Here is the thing that is hard for me to accept, yet I do accept it.  I was "part" of the problem, because I decided to "keep dancing" with my wife.  She was trying to fill a vast... ."unfillable"... .emotional need within her.  I was "loving her"... ."helping her"... .whatever you want to call it.

Here is another "truth".  My wife is going to "keep dancing".  Yet... .if I stop... .or change the music... she is forced to change, even is she doesn't like it.  She "at least" wants to keep me on the dance floor, so she will change behavior to make that happen.

  her to think nice things about me... .actually scratch that... .I don't want her to think bad things about me. I think I mentioned before that I care about the bad thoughts because bad thoughts = acting out = more bad thoughts about me because "I made her" = more acting out. Negative thoughts and rumination are the start of the emotional cascade which is self feeding.

At some point, you are going to have to let your wife think... what she thinks.  How much more energy are you going to dump into "her thoughts". 

Dude... it's scary in there.  Stop looking.

Head back up and re-read my opening.  My wife changed her behavior... .about zero chance she changed her thoughts about me.

Very likely she still thinks I've got a harem of women that I bang on a regular basis.  (note... .every once in a while... .I pick some of her dysfunctional thoughts to "keep"... .this would be one of them.  I added a redhead about a month ago... .)

  I'm frustrated about my helplessness to iron out negative thoughts and emotions which ultimately lead to her further unhappiness,

Again... .you are frustrated by dumping energy into controlling something that you have no control over.

Why keep doing this? 

What do you have control over?

Where should you be putting your energy?

If she chooses this herself that is up to her. 

Stick with this thinking... .about all aspects of her life.  I like to use the word "respect".  She is an adult... "respect" her choices.  Even if they are not "respectable".

  The man I would like to be is the man I was, with the addition of knowledge and understanding of myself and experience of the last 20 years (good and bad) plus the useful tools to manage a situation I now know that I am in... .so in essence a Me++ version. 

I would challenge you to start a brand new thread on this.  Don't mention your wife... .not once.  Write out what you will "look" like in one year.

Now... .that's a place to put your energy.

The irony is that I can see in this chain how I am desperate to be understood.

Yep... .it appears you are basing "success" on a disordered person "understanding" you.  Correct?

How has that been working out for you?

Stay strong brother!  It can get better... .it really can. 

FF

[Enabler]

FF... .you have a looking glass into my head.

Agree wholeheartedly agree re my current path /  direction and where I want to be hence now not wasting energy on trying to make her see my sense. I'm feeling my way around how I can be about ME without running into inevitable conflicts which at the moment are making things worse. My current solution is to be true to myself core beliefs about my personality whilst making somewhat of a sacrifice in life to avoid the conflicts. I kinda liked this quote from Beautiful Creatures:

Reverend Stephens: I don't want to preach today, instead I just wanna talk to you, about a word we don't hear much anymore. Sacrifice. It's not what I would call a modern word. People hear the word sacrifice, and they become afraid that something will be taken away from them or that they will have to give up something they couldn't live without. Sacrifice, to them, means loss in a world telling us we could have it all. But I believe true sacrifice is a victory. That's because it requires free will to give up something for someone you love, or something or someone you love more than yourself. I won't lie to you. It's a gamble. Sacrifice wont take away pain and loss, but it wins the battle against bitterness, the bitterness that dims the light on all of the true value in our lives.

And a weird quote from Spiderman 2

Aunt May: You know, it's so funny I've been trying to clean up around here to be more organized and putting some of Ben's stuff in boxes, and it's so funny, the heavier the box gets the lighter I feel.
Peter Parker: You're throwing his stuff away?
Aunt May: No, god no, I couldn't do that it's part of me, I'm just finding a better place for it. I'm going to take one last look, and I'm going to put it where it belongs.

NOW is about giving up something for someone I love more than myself, whilst taking my baggage parking it up to make ME lighter to move forward.

[formflier]

  I'm feeling my way around how I can be about ME without running into inevitable conflicts which at the moment are making things worse. 

You are soo close... .

Remember... .many of the "correct" or "healthy" strategies are counter-intuitive.

What if you "flipped it" and "embraced" conflict?  What is you "allowed" conflict? 

What if you got rid of "avoid conflict" from your vocabulary?

What if you let your wife experience the natural and logical results of her choice to engage in conflict?

What if you "respected" your wife's choice to use conflict as a manipulative tool?

What if you no longer "feared" conflict?

What if you primarily focused on boundaries for you to "protect" yourself from conflict... .very different than "avoiding" it... .or more specifically... .to "avoid" your wife "initiating" conflict.

What if... .

How would things "look" differently if you took this onboard and I was "watching" you "do" conflict with your wife.

Take some time and reflect on this... .describe the results in detail.  Especially about what YOU do.  Let you wife "do" whatever she feels like... .not your circus.

FF

[flourdust]

The man I would like to be is the man I was, with the addition of knowledge and understanding of myself and experience of the last 20 years (good and bad) plus the useful tools to manage a situation I now know that I am in... .so in essence a Me++ version.

I do understand this. To tell you where I am coming from, I'm currently divorcing my BPDw. I'm single for the first time in 16 years. The only way I know how to be single is how I was in the '90s. Should I try to emulate an older, wiser version of that person?

Let me just give you just one more thought on this. The man you were 20 years ago (and the man I was 16 years ago) was the fool who got you into this mess in the first place. He wasn't better ... .he was just naive and made dumb relationship decisions. Why would you want to be him when you can be someone better?

[Lucky Jim]

The man you were 20 years ago (and the man I was 16 years ago) was the fool who got you into this mess in the first place. He wasn't better ... .he was just naive and made dumb relationship decisions. Why would you want to be him when you can be someone better?

Nicely said, flourdust.  I know myself better now, after 16 years of marriage to a pwBPD, and can confirm that it's possible to move on to a healthier r/s with a new SO who doesn't have BPD.

LJ

[formflier]

Why would you want to be him when you can be someone better?

FD is onto something here.

The "method" of decision making... .the "order of things" matters.

1.  Make some notes about who that guy was years ago.  The good the bad... all of it.
2.  Break out the list of what you didn't like about him and also the parts of him that didn't work out so well, even if you liked that part.  A hard look at results.

3.  Come up with focused list of what you are NOT going to be in the future.  This will ensure you don't "reinvent" yourself by going over well trodden yet unproductive ground.

4.  Then... .identify gaps.  What was that guy missing.  What needed to be adjusted

5.  Finished product.

Make sense?


I certainly found out that "putting others first" was something I liked about the old me... I really did like that.  But... .it screwed me... .hard... in a r/s with a pwBPD.  I had to really... .I mean really... .figure out that putting my self first was not "selfish" (even if a pwBPD was claiming that).

Furthermore... .that I could actually "help" more people... .by putting myself first.  I had more energy, more sleep, better mental focus... .etc etc.

I would never in a million years thought I would conclude what I did... .but I took a hard look at the "thought processes" that got me in various "fixes" that I "found myself in".

There was a theme... .

FF