Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 1

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

Sorry, this is a long post, but you all gave me so much, and I wanted to catch up with all of it.

Skip, formflier, Gagrl, I_Am_The_Fire, Sunfl0wer, takingandsending, hope2727, Panda39, livednlearned, Fian, Lucky Jim, DearHusband, and Harley Quinn, thanks to each and every one of you for the replies!  I thought I had achieved a full appreciation for the power of these boards over the past few months, but I had not.  I did not fully understand the depth of experience that you collectively can bring to bear to support and challenge someone who is in over their head.  It is a huge and complex problem to protect ourselves from a pwBPD while at the same time being our absolute best person to de-escalate and preserve the relationship if possible.  It’s really striking how the group is honoring both sides of that balance.  Thank you.  Things are stabilizing here, so I plan to use the calm time to be proactive as you’ve encouraged.  I will continue to reread the replies in an effort to follow the advice in the coming weeks.

First, an update, with a little good news.  Last night, we had about four hours together of circular conversations.  She got pretty nasty and was looking for a fight at times, but I did zero JADE, kept my pulse in the mid 70’s, leaned heavily on partial validation when anything came up that I could own responsibility for, and that helped.  But that’s (ab)normal.  The improvement came as I started to get tired.  We were at a total impass in the discussion (she wanted me to take 100% of the responsibility and move out, if I’m remembering correctly).  I thought we might be headed for trouble.  We hit 11:30pm, and I *wanted* to declare a sleep boundary and disengage quickly from the conversation, but I knew this would trigger her, and we’d be up until 2am while she chased me around the house.  I avoided giving any indication that I was tired and wanted to quit.  When I saw her eyelids droop, I said I was going to take the dog to the potty box -- a subtle cue because this is our bedtime routine.  She then went to the bedroom, and I joined her without any objections later.  When we woke up in the morning, things were still unresolved, so she started in again.  Again, we ended up at an impass.  She wanted me to accept 100% responsibility.  Doing so would have been an easy way out, but set me up for the implicit promise to magically fix everything.  I held firm.  I could see she couldn’t change her position and needed a face saving way out.  So I asked her if she wanted a backrub.  She accepted with a snipey remark, but that turned the tide, and we are now acting like a normal married couple, collaborating to help our daughter on something, etc.  You guys played a big part in that.  Besides the advice, I figured I didn't want to screw things up after you had invested so much, so I pushed myself a bit harder

OK, back to my homework... .

I think I answered all of Skip’s questions, but owe some answers to formflier.  Here they are:

if you can give a couple examples of boundaries you are currently trying and her reaction to them.  Perhaps some backstory on before the boundaries and how you figured out the boundary and how to "enforce" the boundary.

Boundaries I’ve been working on include: physical abuse, intentional sleep deprivation, harrassment at work, and exiting verbally abusive conversations.  I figured out my boundaries about these over the last few months as I’ve worked to establish a view of “normal” separate from my wife’s distorted view.  I’m looking specifically at the most damaging things.  Physical abuse is obvious.  When things are tough at home, I find I cannot focus at work and my work performance noticeably slides, so regular sleep and not burning hours at work in circular and upsetting phone conversations is important.  Exiting verbally abusive conversations is a negotiable one for me.  If I’m patient enough to sit through a bunch of awful stuff, it can help us keep out of trouble with the other more important boundaries, so I’m not going to push that one too hard for now.

W.r.t. Boundaries, as you have gathered by now, while I have used consequences like leaving for the night, I have not been consistent enough, and a couple of things -- not communicating the boundaries well and not having a stepped sequence of consequences -- have contributed to my wife seeing boundary enforcement as an escalation.  It may be inevitable that she’ll see boundaries as an escalation, but I’ve definitely picked up some tips in this thread of things I can do to help minimize that.

How often does stuff like this happen?  How often does your wife say extreme things?  How often do you listen to those, versus not listen?

For the past couple of months, we have been on week to two-week long breakup cycles.  We typically don’t get through a month without her dishing out some pretty intense verbal abuse a few times.  “Intense” is relative, I know.  I’ve gotten pretty adept over the years at putting up with day-to-day BPD negativity and some pretty challenging stuff.  By “intense” I mean degrading, threatening, or aggressive enough to test my coping.  As for how much I believe, I’ve learned to ignore most of it, but if I’m stressed, tired, or she finds particularly good leverage, I can backslide.  It’s been seven weeks since the last physical abuse, and four weeks since the last aggressive sleep deprivation.

Boy... .I'm really wondering (thinking outloud) if you switch things up and "listen" more or perhaps ask some gentle questions about her recent loss.  Have you ever done that?  Any "productive" conversations about her feelings of loss?

Yes, early on we had some good conversations, and she knows how much respect I have for her mother.  Some more effort here on my part would be good.

Either of you in therapy?  Ever?

We went to one useless session together many years ago.  She adamantly maintains that therapy is unnecessary for her, and generally worthless.  I’ve left that one alone.  She made a promise to go to couples therapy a couple of months ago, but has reneged.  She is vocal about thinking that therapy is worthless and she is also scared I’d gang up on her with the therapist.  Paired with her conviction that our relationship problems are 100% my fault, I’m not optimistic about our changes to get to couples counseling, though if I see a chance to mention it in a calm time, I do.  I went to a therapist for the first half of this year, then my wife talked me into dropping it with the promise to go to couples counseling.  Just today, though, my wife suggested that perhaps I should see a therapist (because I need to fix myself).  So I will try to pick it up again.

How do you express empathy to her for her loss? … There is a legitimate real world stressor that ( the death) that is acting as "gas on an existing fire".  What can be done about that?  You know her best... .what can be done about that?

Good questions.  We probably don’t talk about it enough.  But I’ve brainstormed some ways to talk about it, and this afternoon had a chance to talk about her Mom with her for a moment.  That will be a good thread to follow.

OK, I think that does it for the questions.  I wanted to reflect back on some of the advice:

OK, so she is bullying you knowing you won't fight back. You don't fight back because the DV laws are in her favor.

My sense is that you are dealing with this problem episodically. This is a chronic problem and that usually needs a long term, systematic plan. Making headway on this will mostly happen in times of calm, not so much when she is dysregulated. It is also going to happen in stages. It took years to get to this point it won't end overnight. 

Skip, you nailed it, and I appreciate your understanding and advice here.  Yes, that is exactly it -- episodic and chronic, with times of calm in between.  One of my weaknesses in life generally is that I am often reactive rather than proactive, so I will need to raise my game here and be deliberate about what progress I try to make in the calm periods.

1. Get a lot of third party visibility on this and keep records. Contact DV agencies. Get the police report from yesterday. Talk to a DV lawyer to learn the trips and traps of dealing with this. If you have clergy, talk to them. Light is the best disinfectant.
... .you will probably be surprised how effective visibility is in situations like this - especially with women.

Thank you.  I am solid on records, but I fundamentally didn’t get the benefits and possibilities of third party visibility.  It was helpful to me to disclose to a divorce lawyer and therapist, but those relationships are confidential so that didn’t get the visibility you are talking about.  I didn’t want to have her arrested and taken away from the kids, nor draw in friends (almost all are mutual) or family (to preserve relationships).  *Now* I get how third party visibility can act as a powerful deterrent, lend support, and help protect me if things go south.  I see more possibilities for third party involvement.  I have two friends who have a minimal or no relationship with my wife who by personal or professional experience are likely to have good advice.  I will probably talk to them both.  I can tell my wife was pretty seriously thrown by the involvement of the police.  She’s ridiculed me for it, but it had an impact.  I can see how more modest third party visibility can be helpful without being as inflammatory.

2. Develop a safety plan (members can help with that) and develop a recover plan than systematically puts increasing pressure on her to stop. This plan should be structured such that if you are not making progress, you are building a custody case in your favor.

Thank you.  The increasing pressure part is helpful to be reminded of, and the concise way you’ve described the two outcomes (progress in relationship, or strong custody case) help me understand that I need to be working on towards both at the same time.  One weakness is that I don’t know enough about our local police, and am considering swinging by to talk to them in a calm time to get an understanding of how they deal with things and the laws in my state (I need this to pick boundary consequences that I can live with).

Hey Radcliff, Needless to say, your need to call the police is a big red flag for your marriage.     Don't worry, you're not alone.  My BPDxW and I had some police visits, too.  Looking back, I think police involvement is one of those deal-breakers, though I didn't see it that way at the time.  It's a boundary I've since adopted: if there's a need to call the police, then I'm out of the r/s.  I'm not saying that you should necessarily adopt my boundary, but it might be something for you to think about.

LJ

Lucky Jim, I appreciated your comment here.  I think we may be in deal breaker territory for a variety of reasons, but if I can stay constructive, improve my BPD skills, and protect myself, I’m willing to fly this plane for a little while longer.  I’m curious to see what life looks like if I can get really good at boundaries.  Despite everything my wife says, I don’t think she really wants to exit (she does and she doesn’t   She certainly wants me to figure it all out and magically fix it.  I’ve not done the planning to be ready to exit, so will continue to work to support either outcome as Skip advised.  I don’t want to bail until I can be confident that I’ve done my best.  Thanks for keeping me honest, though; I appreciate being challenged on this.

Livednlearned, thanks for the detailed advice!  I will add this to my list.

I think in this first round, I'd address safety. Just safety. This is easy to identify. Easy to get buy-in. Easy to get outside support. I set a goal (for yourself) of zero bullying in 90-120 days.

Crises with children etc. are not as black and white issues.

Skip, I think I need to add protected time at work and sleep deprivation to the immediate list -- I need it to keep things stable for me (keep the job, be rested to handle challenges at work and home).  I think I’ll start a thread on the sleep question, since it’s not cut and dried.  In one of your replies, you suggested that I end the conversation if a divorce threat is given.  I am definitely getting sick and tired of them, and they need to stop if we are to make forward progress.  But given the focus you advised on tackling just one or two boundaries at first, would you suggest not starting with that one yet?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

A quick update, and thank you to formflier... .

Last night we went for a 10 minute dog walk that turned into an hour long dog walk, when I brought up the topic of grieving and her mother.  There was a lot there to talk about, and it was easier to get it started than I thought it would be.  I would not have initiated that had it not been for your advice, formflier, so a hearty thank you -- you made a difference last night.

[bananas2]

af - I think I gave you this link before, but thought I'd post it again on here for you or anyone else who needs it. National Domestic Violence Hotline: www.thehotline.org/
It's such a great resource & they are absolute experts at helping to tailor a specific safety plan. Excellent info & links on their site & they are available 24/7 to talk by phone or chat. The chat is great for when you don't have the privacy to talk by phone.

Good to see that you are being so proactive. Keep up the great work! 

[Radcliff]

Things went to black yesterday.  This update is long, sorry, but at the end you can see how I think the advice and support I've received on the boards made a significant improvement in some ways.

We had been white for a week and a couple of days since the drama of last Tuesday.  I wanted to keep the white period going as long as possible, and not let if falter through inattentiveness, laziness or selfishness on my part, and also to observe and understand how things switched to black.  Yesterday I was off work to spend time with my wife.  We made plans to eat lunch at an informal restaurant we'd been meaning to try.  A nice date.

As we left for lunch, I waited in the car for 10 minutes while my wife finished an e-mail.  I didn't say anything because I wanted to focus on enjoying the date.  Shortly after we got to the restaurant, a call came on my cell from a tree guy who was supposed to come by the house some time during the day to give an estimate.  It was awkward, because the dog was in the yard and I didn't want him to come by while we were out, so I excused myself and took the call outside.  When I got back, my wife was livid.  She said the lunch was ruined.  Clearly, this was a date mistake, and I apologized quickly and completely.  I should have been proactive and told the tree guy we were stepping out so our lunch together was not interrupted.  It was a pretty typical mistake for me, so particularly upsetting to my wife.  I tried to restart the conversation, but she was too upset.  She said she was embarrassed, and I made the mistake of saying I hadn't expected that she would be embarrassed.  She got up and left the restaurant.

On the ride home, she screamed a bit, and said that I'd ruined that restaurant forever for her.  That she couldn't believe I'd been gone for ten minutes.  (Worried about whether I'd lost track of time, in a moment alone I checked my call log, it was three minutes.)  When we got home, she took my shorts out of the dryer and dunked them in the fish tank.  I repeated the apology, and avoided feeding the storm, but she asked for a divorce within an hour of our return.  It's all over, etc.  We muddled through a couple of hours, then I left for a volunteer activity.  She created a crisis during that, texting that I had to leave it to bring D12 to another activity.  She either put D12 in the middle and got D12 to text me, or impersonated D12 from her phone.  I didn't take the bait and kept my responses BIFF.

After that, I let her know I'd be out for a couple of hours.  I was worried about the evening, so I went to the police station to do my homework assignment to introduce myself to them and get info on how they handle things.  I didn't say I had any concerns about that night -- it was just information gathering.  After that, I drove around for a while.  I had a bag packed and could have stayed at a hotel, but my wife called, and I wanted to err on the side of mending fences, so I went home.  We were together from 9pm-1am.

To make things right, she wanted me to accept responsibility for 95% of our relationship trouble, and put it in writing.  She said I should be "begging, on your knees, and crying" to get her back.  I've had several years of career missteps, a mess that I own, during the time that she has had a cancer battle and her mom has passed.  The cancer and BPD have been a factor, but not the root cause -- I own that.  I agreed that I'd brought the bulk of the stress on the marriage in the last few years, but said that we had issues as a couple and needed to work together to make things better.  She kept coming back to me accepting near total responsibility for the marriage, in writing, which I wouldn't do -- I was not willing to agree that it was on me to magically fix everything.

By that time, it was past midnight, and typically I would try to go to bed and she'd chase me around the house and get physically abusive, or I'd go to a hotel and she'd harass me.  She did trap me in the bathroom for a bit, but let off when it seemed I was about to start recording.  I waited for her to fall asleep on the couch, and went to bed at 1am.  She came to bed and made halfhearted attempts to roust me, but we both fell asleep.

So what was better?  For certain, I had prepared better and was helped by the psychological boost from support on the boards.  When I left the house for my volunteering, I left through the back so she didn't try to restrain me at the front door.  I can't say for sure, but I think that the increased third party exposure, even the police call last Tuesday that I had mixed feelings about, kept her from hitting, poking, or throwing things at me, and kept her from trapping me in the bathroom for a long period.  I slept for five hours straight, which was pretty good, considering.  I beat my boss to work, and am having a productive day.  My wife is texting me about lawyers, taking the kids away for the long weekend (my birthday weekend), how the courts will know I'm lame and won't give me any custody, etc., but I'm doing OK not engaging.  Not looking forward to the weekend, though.

Thank you again.  I know on the DV end of things I've got it better than many on the board, but the physical stuff has been really hard on the spirit, so I'm happy to see some improvement there, and am grateful for all the advice you've given.

[Skip]

Do you do anything proactive during the "white" period to work together on values/boundaries?

[formflier]

Skip beat me to the first question.

OK... if I understand the "mindset", you were trying really hard on "your efforts" to extend the "white period".

I do understand some illusion of control there.  "If I was just "good enough" I could get another day of "white".

Do I have your "thinking" right?

FF

[Radcliff]

Hi Skip -- I had not yet started discussions on boundaries with her.  I was preparing for those discussions, thinking through stepped boundaries, and consequences.  I was about to post a boundary and consequence plan for phone calls and texts at work and how I was thinking about talking with her about it.  While preparing, I was concentrating on making deposits in the relationship bank account with her to set the stage for a good talk.  Honestly, I thought I've have more time.

formflier -- fair challenge.  I understand that taming this is like taming a hurricane or something.  No matter how hard I try, I will never be good enough for her.  But I am fallible, and definitely see times when I'm not the husband I would like to be.  Good times in a relationship require both parties to actively contribute, and I wanted to hold up my end, not coast, spend too much time on personal priorities, etc. -- basically the standard I'd expect to need to meet if I was working on a relationship with a "non."  Does that make sense?  Part of that is that if I could be confident that I did a reasonable job, I could better understand how strongly the forces of BPD nature that I'm dealing with are influencing things.  I kind of know what I need to know already, I suppose.  I'm thinking that for us to go from getting along to a divorce push based on taking one phone call is only reasonable in the land of Oz and is rather discouraging.

[formflier]

Mindset:  If I could just be a better husband then... . 

Don't hear me say being a better hubby is bad, but you are chasing her approval.  How is that working out?

Said another way.  I'm not aware of any way to get from where you are... to a healthier relationship... that she will approve of... or even like.  

She will want to chase you around the house.  She isn't going to like it when she can't... it works for her.  Not enough love deposits out there to change that  Love deposits are important... but they won't change that part.

Short term action plan.

1.  Stop apologizing.  "I hadn't thought about it that way before... .I'll give it some thought and let you know tomorrow"  Then post here to see if you should apologize.  Seriously... .stop it.

2.  Listen... don't agree or disagree about marital issues.  Somehow... .somehow... .much less dysfunctional talk.  Even if that means you walking away.  Note:  This needs to be coupled with "proactive" stuff in good times.  :)on't overthink it... just do it.  "Hey... I'm interested in your thoughts on how we can come together around (name issue)"   or  "I've got time tonight to spend improving our relationship, how can I be a blessing to you tonight?"

Note:  In both cases... .be ready for deer in the headlights.  Have a plan ready and let her know what you will be doing... and do it... .let her know you are open to talk more... anytime.

But... here is the thing.  When she decides to be upset... .let her be upset.  You go do your thing.

FF

[Skip]

Hi Skip -- I had not yet started discussions on boundaries with her.  I was preparing for those discussions, thinking through stepped boundaries, and consequences.  I was about to post a boundary and consequence plan for phone calls and texts at work and how I was thinking about talking with her about it.  While preparing, I was concentrating on making deposits in the relationship bank account with her to set the stage for a good talk.  Honestly, I thought I've have more time... .

You have bullying and physical violence in your relationship. Yet, when we talk about boundaries you think in terms of phone calls and texts? This is what your gravitated toward when we spoke about boundaries a week ago.

I think there is a hard reality to face here. If you can't stop the bullying, you have to leave. Why? Because someone is going to get hurt or end up in jail. Because your kids have a high likelihood of using or accepting abuse when they grow up. Because if you can't stop abuse with the the law, the family, friends, and society 100% black on white, on your side, you won't be able to affect boundaries for anything.

Exiting and avoidance are emergency tactics and you are using them wisely. You are staying out of jail an no one is getting hurt.  Problem is, when you use them many times, they become positive reinforcement to the bullying. She goes into bully mode, you apologize and then hide. On the long term, that is fuel to a bully.

Grrrr! Jump. Hide. Watch a pack of dogs.

I'm trying to paint a picture for you. I know it is hard to hear. I know it will take time to sink in.

It really helped when you described the event. Yes you were wrong. Yes you apologized. And yes it is OK for her still to be mad.  When it got to "you ruined the restaurant" and the underwear in the aquarium tells a story.

Glad the advice you have received helped. Just a reminder that you can't resolve any of this by being reactive.

Strength is very important. You have to systematically take the steps to stop her from running over you. You can do this.

 

[Radcliff]

Hi Skip.  OK, thanks, let me follow your guidance and focus on the bullying.  To me, last night, there was an improvement in the bullying.  I was not hit, the physical menacing was minimal, and I slept longer than expected.  I don't have a good reference for how far I should be moving and how fast to improve things even more.  Perhaps you could give me a little more detail about direction and speed?

The current question is where to sleep tonight.  My lawyer has said that it's OK to leave for a night or two to blow off steam, as long as there's a plan to go back, but she is trying to bully me right out of the house for good tonight, saying I can never come back.  I would like to stay in the house this evening, but don't have a good reference to understand whether that would be inciting things or reasonably looking out for myself.  You can see that walking that line between reducing conflict and looking out for myself is a hard one for me to judge.  I've always erred on the side of reducing conflict, and don't want to clumsily go too far in the opposite direction.  Yet with things escalating, it is time to get this right, and not be too timid.  Am I adequately describing my dilemma?

If I stay home tonight, she may get aggressive.  If I stay, I am thinking that I would gird myself to not expect to sleep, and would just stay and do everything to avoid conflict with her.  Past midnight I do not expect to have the capacity for any decent conversation.  I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to call the police with a lame complaint like, "She won't let me sleep," so I'd probably plan to stay up as long as she does and only call them if she gets physical.  If I call them and nobody has any marks, it will be "he said she said," they won't make an arrest, and they'll refer it to the district attorney for an investigation.  We will have police on our street, and I will have possibly burned the final bridge to possible reconciliation.  I know I may have to come to terms with that, but it is sobering.  Of course, as long as I'm willing to make a credible threat to call them and willing to follow through, I may just have to say that I'm willing to call to get her to back off.  That would be better.  Let me know if I'm off base here.  I am very close to this and am not confident in my perspective.

[formflier]

  I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to call the police with a lame complaint like, "She won't let me sleep," so I'd probably plan to stay up as long as she does and only call them if she gets physical.  

I have sleep disorders... so perhaps it is a bit different.  I would say the principal is the same though.  I've called police over not letting me sleep and other things too.

You need to plan for a good night sleep.  If your wife interferes with that there are natural consequences... .don't shield her from those.

Please make sure your recorder is running.  Don't threaten it... .just do it.  Protect yourself.

There is really a decision for you to make.  Are you going to stay in house and go to room and lock yourself in to sleep... .or are you going to go to a hotel. 

Waiting till midnight to figure that out is horrible for both of you. 

Your sleep is not lame. 
FF

[livednlearned]

Hi af,

I've been in almost your exact situation. Saturday night, no lawyer available, child in the house, tension sky high. My spouse bullied in different ways.

In my situation, my lawyer counseled me to stay in the marital home, when possible, for legal advantage. However, she also said to put safety first. When you live so close to the razor's edge, it's hard to know when, exactly, things are no longer safe. Many of us passed that point so long ago that we lose perspective.

My advice is to put your safety and well-being first. Not to mention protecting your D12 from witnessing more abuse.

From a legal standpoint, it would be best to document why you are not coming home. Writing your wife an email is one way to document. If you live in a state where you can record a two-way conversation, that's another way. Going to the police and asking them for domestic assistance is another option. They would escort you to the home and you would pick up your things.

Not returning home was the hardest decision I ever made. I really feel for where you are at right now. It gets hard to think and problem solve, to see a way through.

Whatever you decide, we're here for you.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the timely support!  I will post an update when possible.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I've been following this thread for awhile now. I'm glad to hear there has been some improvement in your sleep. That's very important. I agree with the advice everyone has been giving as well. Your situation seems extremely difficult and I don't want to give any bad advice.

I don't know if this will help you or not. Are you writing any of this down in a journal? Physically writing in a book, not just typing it up in a computer. I wrote down every event (good, bad, confusing) that happened in a journal I kept at work. I kept it at work so he wouldn't read it and I felt safe to write exactly what I thought and felt. For one thing it was cathartic to actually write these things down instead of typing them up. It also gave me time to think about what happened, what my part in it was (if any), what triggered me and/or him, and what patterns I saw. It also helped me to recognize just how bad his abuse was and the effect it had on me and the kids. My kids are young. At the time they were 2 and 10. My oldest is now 12. They were acting out in awful ways like hurting animals. Since we divorced their behavior has improved dramatically.

It was an extremely hard reality for me to accept (still working on that) that chances were very high he will never change. When I wrote about the difficult times, I found my writing changed and I could let out my emotions and have a good cry. It gave me a lot of good insights about myself too. I realized I had my own issues to work on that over the years lead me to accept the abuse for years. Now I know I deserve to be treated better and I work towards that goal step by step. I also read up on what emotional abuse is, not just physical abuse. Being able to label his behavior as gaslighting or controlling or manipulative helped me to not minimize or invalidate what was going on and that it wasn't healthy for anyone. I learned to recognize the emotional abuse (bullying) for my own sanity. Learning all this helped me with enforcing my boundaries. It's been a couple of years now and I'm still working on them. It definitely doesn't come naturally for me due to the years of abuse and that's okay. The important thing is to work on them and consistently enforce them, IMO.  I'm wondering if doing something like writing in a journal (if you aren't already) could help you as well in addition to writing in this forum.

Pretty much everything was my fault (and still is), in his eyes. The kids were starting to blame me for things as well when I knew full well things weren't 100% my fault. He demanded apologies from me quite often (still does) even after I had already sincerely apologized for what I felt I needed to apologize for. It was never good enough. It took me awhile to realize it would never be good enough for him. This is just speculation on my part but given what I know about him and his past family life, I think an apology wasn't what he really wanted. I think he really wanted me to manage his emotions and make him feel better about himself. That wasn't my "job" though. It's up to him to make himself feel better about himself, not me. When I realized that, I felt immensely better. However, when I stopped managing his emotions and set good personal boundaries for myself, he would escalate to try to force me to react to him negatively. I refused. So just be careful and prepared for some potential escalation when you get better at enforcing your boundaries. I think you've already seen this, though. Consistency is key, I believe. It got easier with time for me to not emotionally react to his abuse. I'd like to say it helped our marriage but it did not. His behavior got worse, not better. We ended up divorcing because I couldn't live like that anymore. I hated going home. I could never actually relax at home. I often felt like a prisoner and it just got worse. I don't know how many times he "threatened" to leave. He never did. Push came to shove and I finally called his bluffs and threats. I just knew deep down it was the right thing for me to do. That's me, though.

Lately his past and current behavior (and your wife's behavior it sounds like) reminds me of a 3 year old throwing a tantrum when they don't get their way. It may sound silly but I am serious. My therapist sees this too.  It seems like they can't manage or contain their emotions, much like toddlers. I've learned that with kids, good boundaries and limits are essential to reducing tantrums. I now treat me ex the same way as my kids when he throws a tantrum. I'm using some "Love and Logic" techniques for this and it seems to help de-escalate things. Sometimes it doesn't matter what I say or do so I just ignore his "tantrums". It may or may not fit in your situation. I thought I'd mention it just in case it may help.

I understand you want to give your marriage every possible chance to succeed. I think that's great. I also think that reality can be very harsh. It takes two people to make a marriage succeed and to have a healthy relationship. Especially when your kids see what is going on. If she's not willing to do her part in working on your marriage, I'm not sure how much success you will have in that area. You can't wave a magic wand and make it work by yourself. You also can't pour from an empty cup. I'm glad you realize you need to make sure your needs are taken care of. Before we divorced we tried the Imago technique. It's supposed to help each person learn to empathize with the other. 99% of the time he turned it around back to himself, though. Even when the therapist helped lead us through it, he would make it about himself pretty much every time. It really does take two people to make it work. In our case it didn't. I don't know if something like that would work for you or if your wife would even be open to it. You know your wife and your situation better than any of us.

I wrote about my experiences because it sounds a lot like what you're going through minus the physical abuse. Although mine tried to provoke me into hitting him but I refused. When I read your posts, sometimes I get the impression you tend to minimize or invalidate your own feelings and experiences. There is no competition with who has it worse. These situations are all bad and unhealthy for everyone involved, IMO. I hope what I wrote makes sense and helps even a little bit.

I am really glad you are reaching out for help and working on yourself and getting your needs met. It takes a lot of courage to do that.

[Skip]

To me, last night, there was an improvement in the bullying.  I was not hit, the physical menacing was minimal, and I slept longer than expected.  I don't have a good reference for how far I should be moving and how fast to improve things even more.  Perhaps you could give me a little more detail about direction and speed?

but she is trying to bully me right out of the house for good tonight, saying I can never come back.  I would like to stay in the house this evening, but don't have a good reference to understand whether that would be inciting things or reasonably looking out for myself.  

Radcliff, you're really deep into this dynamic where your wife bullies you to win and sooth her own emotions... .and you don't stand your ground. She is running over you. If she is upset, she can project her pain on to you. If you take it, you are rewarding bad behavior.  i know you don't intend that and are looking at avoidance to solve this problem. Sometimes that is all it takes, but in your case it is not working. So now you are in that unenviable place or running from a bully. Nothing fuels a bully more. Its the nature of the beast.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU ESCALATE AT THE TIME OF DYSFUNCTION. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU PHYSICALLY OR VERBALLY FIGHT BACK.

I am suggesting that during a time of calm, you sit down and explain that the bullying is unhealthy for the family and seek agreement to work on it together. If not, tell her that you are not going to stand for any bullying at any time.  Be respectful, confident, firm. In any case, let her know that the best way to resolve it is to involve other people to help.

That's it. Communicate. Be benevolent, be humble, be firm.

Know you will be tested. It's natural. She is not going to wake up tomorrow being a different person. Be prepared to stand your ground when she does, every time, consistently. Make a list of successive consequences you will enact - 1) threaten, 2) cal police, 3) call police and contact her family, 4) call police, contact family, ______, 5) etc.
When it comes to hitting you or retraining your movement, act. Don't dilute this with sleep issues or text messages. As a first wave, resolve the domestic violence.

There are boundary things you want to work on and that will take time - sleep, texts, etc. This is not about annoying things or boundaries, this is about domestic violence and bullying. It is a class far above all the other issues.

[DaddyBear77]

Hi Radcliff,

A few months back on this very board, Skip offered some very sobering advice. It was along the same lines as what he's saying now. You are doing an incredible job of looking at yourself, deeply, honestly. Keep following his advice and the other really smart folks here. The rest of what I'm going to say is just encouragement and relating to your story... .

Our stories have many similarities- one thing that struck me is the "... .and put it in writing!" demand. I DID put it in writing. Several times. It was bullsh_t, but I did it. I thought it would keep things calm, and I suppose it might have. I did more, too. I copped to everything. I took 100% responsibility. I am pretty sure it was the fact that I just gave up and said "yep, it's me. Rage away!" that prevented my wife from getting more physical. So consider the level of physical stuff, possibly, to be a sign that you are pushing the right buttons.

Putting my "admission" in writing happened 6 or 7 years ago. I'm still dealing with more of the same, every day - I'm to blame, it's my fault, I even ADMITTED it, she can say now.

You are doing the right thing. You're making good steps. Keep going.

Also, consider, that setting more boundaries is going to cause the physical stuff to INCREASE. Be prepared for this. It happens. Frequently. But the alternative to boundaries is losing yourself. I don't think you'll go there. I don't think you'll let that happen.

Radcliff, kudos. Keep going and keep updating us. I, for one, am rooting for you, and I know many others here are doing the same.

~DaddyBear77

[Radcliff]

I_Am_The_Fire and livednlearned -- thank you so much for your empathy and advice.  It gave me a boost   Yes, I have been journaling for a while and it helps to get it out.

Skip sensei -- Thanks, you've laid it out clearly enough for me to understand.  I should be paying you tuition for this!

DaddyBear77 -- I appreciate your support.  I'm a little bewildered to find myself in need of people to root for me, and then to find that there are people rooting for me!  If you're a Harry Potter fan, it seems like the board is like The Room of Requirement

bananas2 -- Thank you so much for the Hotline link.  As dense as I am sometimes, and also being a guy and not their main type of customer, I hadn't looked into it yet.  The repetition helped, and your post pushed me over the edge to finally go to the Web site, and I'll give them a call to get a reality check before going to the police.  You made a difference!

On Friday night, things got physical again.  I came home from work and she was very agitated.  As I was walking away from her down the hall to the bedrooms where she did not want me to go, she stomped on the back of my ankle hard enough that it hurt a day later.  She then shoved me aside as I tried to use the toilet in "her" master bathroom.  She convinced D12 that she had just been trying to give me a "flat foot," coopted D12 and got D12 to laugh.  This was deeply concerning to me.  Whether she was aiming for my shoe or not, the level of force used and the anger and intent to control were obvious.

I began to make preparations to go to the police, and I got in touch with an old college friend and let him know what was going on.  On Saturday morning, (before I received Skip's latest message), I had a conversation with her where I asked us to make a pledge to not be violent with each other.  It would have been great if it could have been a five minute conversation, then we could have talked for a couple of hours about other things to get closer.  What should have been a simple conversation was not.  She justified, minimized, blamed me, etc.  I ended up getting upset at the end, and raising my voice moderately when I was describing particular events of violence and asking her if she thought they were OK.

Skip's message arrived soon after, and in particular, he said:

I am suggesting that during a time of calm, you sit down and explain that the bullying is unhealthy for the family and seek agreement to work on it together. If not, tell her that you are not going to stand for any bullying at any time.  Be respectful, confident, firm. In any case, let her know that the best way to resolve it is to involve other people to help.

That's it. Communicate. Be benevolent, be humble, be firm.

I'd pretty much been doing that, but that last line was helpful to focus me on getting to an even higher level.  If I go to the police, I want to absolutely know that I explored every opportunity to avoid it, and that my motivations are utterly absent any anger, a need to be right, a need for retribution, or anything similar.  So we had six or seven more conversations through the afternoon and evening, at times when she wanted to talk.  I was benevolent, humble, and firm.  I varied the approach, I validated, etc.  If she started to dig in her heels, I retreated and moved to different ground for a while.  I tried to be sensitive to the fact that this seems like a sudden shift to her, and I wanted to give her a chance to catch up so I wasn't going to the police and missing a chance to reconcile that could have been had if I moved just a tad slower.  There were moments of tenderness and vulnerability on both sides.  But through all that, her justifications, minimizations, and denials continued.

This morning we had one more chance to talk.  No progress.  I left the bedroom to sit in the living room.  She came down the hall after me, fast and hard, standing over me with her fists balled.  When she sat down, I explained that I really needed a couple of hours out of the house by myself, but the only reason I was sitting there was because I was afraid she'd tackle me at the door and things would get unsafe.  It didn't move her.  Unexpectedly, it moved me.  All of a sudden, in that moment when I had just thought she might attack, I thought about how lucky I was that I was stronger and could defend myself.  I had a flash of  how it would have felt if she was stronger and the kids were threatened, and I started to cry for the people who are in that situation.  It's hard to explain.  I wasn't looking for extra reasons to be emotional, I just saw/felt it in a flash before I was able to refocus myself.  She saw that, and thought I was crying about us.  She became tender, and it was clear that she was rapidly running through any possible method to reel me back in.  Like a computer in a movie that hits overload and starts running through its routines comically fast, she was cycling from white to black within minutes and even seconds trying to crack my code.  She offered to rub my back, but could only do it for 30 seconds before bringing it back to herself.

Yesterday I had separate, short, talks with D12 and D16.  I explained that Mom had been hitting me in ways that they hadn't seen, that it was not OK and needed to stop, and that I was getting some help.  I said that it might get dramatic and distracting for them, that they were the most important priorities in my life, and that I was deeply sorry for any distraction or stress they might feel.  I think they got it.

Having some extra time since Friday night has helped me to think about the need for a comprehensive plan, as Skip advised.  Once I go to the police, I think there's a 50/50 chance they will arrest her.  It wasn't until last night that the possible implications of that started to sink in.  Within the normal conduct of our marriage, I feel fairly confident in predicting what physical things will happen, and the level of risk.  But there have been a couple of times (not recently) where she was under extreme stress and things got really scary.  I'm struggling for words, and "unhinged" is the best word I can think of to describe her.  My ability to predict or manage things went to zero.  If she is arrested, and she is very scared of authority, I am worried about what will happen.  I do not know if she will act in or out, if she will crumble and come apart, or if she will attack.  It may not be safe for her to be alone, and even if it is, it would be crushing for her.  I had been thinking that the police might give her a stern talk and file a report with the DA, and we might sleep in the same house.  Now I'm realizing that may be ridiculously naive.

This is my wife, and the mother of my children.  I want her to stay safe, and continue to be able to be there for the kids (physically and mentally), while keeping things safe for me and not interfering with my parenting.  After I talk to the police, I'm thinking about calling her brother.  He was her protector in their FOO, and is a solid guy.  I think he is the best bet to help her if I am not available.  I'm a little worried about putting his strength behind her if she goes on the attack, but she could reach out to him anyway, and on balance I think his involvement would overall be an improvement in safety.  I'm curious about thoughts on that.  He lives far away, and it could be a day before he can get here, if he's available.  I'm wondering if I need to think of a local friend of hers, but that gets complicated, because most of our friends are common, and she may be mortified if I disclose to one of her friends.  Or I just accept that there's a period of risk, that she can reach out to someone if she wants to, and I just call her brother.

My immediate plan is to write a letter to the police that I can give them when I make a report, so I can get my thoughts organized beforehand and I come across as credible and not muddled.  I'll send a copy of that to my friend to time stamp it, then will call the hotline to reality check with them, then will head home to see if the kids need anything and to try to get a feel for timing of when to go to the police.

Thank you again for everything you've done.  I couldn't have gotten to this point without you all.  I'll check the board when I'm able and will be glad for any feedback and support, but will rely on my friend, my father, the hotline, and police for any real-time issues.  Thank you!

[DaddyBear77]

All of a sudden, in that moment when I had just thought she might attack, I thought about how lucky I was that I was stronger and could defend myself.

There are many ways that a smaller person can overpower a larger person, with the result being anything from serious injury to death. I'm sure part of you has considered it. You've maybe even considered it while you were lying next to her. I think it's important to put these thoughts into words and look at them.

I'm sure you've communicated with her about the fact that her physical assaults are dangerous. Is she listening? Is she changing? You're looking at boundaries and ways to remove yourself, but you still prioritize staying in the house even when part of you knows better. As you get better and better at boundaries - which, by definition, will change the available ways she has to soothe herself - she will use the remaining ways in a more intense fashion. You can almost 100% count on this.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'd pretty much been doing that, but that last line was helpful to focus me on getting to an even higher level.  If I go to the police, I want to absolutely know that I explored every opportunity to avoid it, and that my motivations are utterly absent any anger, a need to be right, a need for retribution, or anything similar. 

The way this is done is deciding values and boundaries ahead of time.
Having a plan, then acting on that plan.

I in no way know what is an appropriate plan for you, your situation... .
Your wife IS actively violent.
It has already gotten there.

But for example, deciding ahead of time, speaking to the DV hotline folks, coming up with an actionable plan... .including something like... .that police will be called if there is threat of physical harm.  This can mean her running at you with fists balled, blocking a doorway throwing verbal threats, etc.

My point is... .
Idk what your plan should be.
Yet, it is by method of having "a plan" that is how you know you are enacting it via logic minded means vs emotional ones.

Skip keeps directing you to some details, explaining to her your boundaries or such while all is calm, not as "in leiu" of calling police on violence... .not as an "after the fact" negotiating strategy... .not as a way to control her.
Anyway... .I'll leave it at thta because others can surely explain their meaning behind their input.

Mine was simply... .
Base it on a thoughtful, predetermined plan... .preferrably created with someone from that DV hotline number that was given out in this thread.

This situation should expect an extinction burst upon establishing any boundaries.
That is a dangerous place to be that needs a full on, professional, comprehensive plan... .hence why DV hotline could be a great resource.
(I think someone said have a plan before changing anything)
(A safety plan is something YOU decide, is not negotiated with her.)

[formflier]

Your wife IS actively violent.
 

But for example, deciding ahead of time, speaking to the DV hotline folks, coming up with an actionable plan... .including something like... .that police will be called if there is threat of physical harm.  This can mean her running at you with fists balled, blocking a doorway throwing verbal threats, etc.
 

This suggestion would be one to talk through with DV types. 

I would think, given the concern for your wife, that you are much better to call with a "threat" of violence, than waiting for another hit or kick.

With fists balled, there is decent chance of a talking to/warning that may "scare" her into backing off DV.

If she hits you, she is likely to be arrested. 

Said another way, it sounds like you desire is for her to NOT be arrested.  I would think calling sooner is better IF that is your priority.

FF

[Tattered Heart]

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